Re: Accredited programs in TX

November 29, 2007

I am on the GETAC Education Committee and we are working on some of the issues

that you are discussing on the list serve. We not only meet at regular GETAC

meeting but have decided to meet between those sessions to try and address these

issues. I am not a college based program and have dealt with some of the same

issues that you have brought up. I try to look at all of these issues with an

open mind of what is best for education in Texas not just my program. I believe

that we have to bring all programs forward not just a few. I have not made it

any secret that I am not a fan of National Registry but at the same time realize

that it is the only avenue we currently have. We must work within those

guidelines. It is important that all educators have their voice heard. I would

recommend that if you can not attend the meetings that you contact the committee

members and they will bring your concerns to the table.

>>> Hudson 11/29/2007 8:55 AM >>>

I don't have the time to go down to GETAC meetings or be on a committee. When

I'm out of the classroom, my students are not learning, and their stuck with a

sub. Every minute in class is critical to their learning. It would be great if

GETAC was more responsive to everyone, rather than those who can afford the time

to participate in Austin. Any GETAC member out there - please respond....

-MH

________________________________

From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Henry

Barber [hbarber@...]

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:38 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Accredited programs in TX

Gene,

" Again, why is Texas letting NREMT tell us what we need to do in EMS

education? Why isn't Texas telling NREMT what WE NEED, and demanding that they

either furnish it or give up the contract? "

A better question is why is GETAC not more vocal on this issue?

Henry

RE: Accredited programs in TX

>

> I'm also concerned about some of the college and independent programs who

> may have to drop paramedic programs because of the cost of the accreditation

> process. I have been with 2 programs who have gone through accreditation.

> It's not cheap, and it takes a mountain of support. Some might say if the

> program can't go through accreditation, then they are not worth keeping

> around. However, there are some exceptional programs that just don't have

> the cash to do it. Hopefully, Dishes and GETAC will muster up and help with

> the expenses and provide tech assistance to programs seeking the now

> mandatory accreditation( mandatory accreditation(even though THEY di

> should be a top priority for the GETAC Education Committee.

>

> -MH

>

November 29, 2007

We had a university based program in La. It was a good program, and we had

positive student outcome - with a 95% first time pass rate!!!!! Check the NR

stats for '87-90 for USL-Lafayette. To break it down for you roughly-----

Consultancy - $9,000

Upgrade to equipment - $15,000

Upgrade to Library - $5,000

Referee - $3,000

Staff Overtime - $10,000

Site Visits Cost - $6,000

Copies, meals, travel. - $3,000

Accredidation is a good idea. I don't like the manner it is being crammed down

our throats. Bottom line, if you want to do this right the first time it WILL

cost you money.

Several have asked over and over and over again on this list for GETAC and

Dishes to chime in and say or do SOMETHING ---- They have not.

NR passing rates have absolutely nothing to do with patient care - anybody can

teach the test. The NR means one can meet minimal competency - nothing more.

The education process is the most important thing to have a sound practitioner.

-MH

________________________________

From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

Miles [scottywmiles@...]

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:57 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Accredited programs in TX

Mr. Hudson,

Based on your last post, if the organization had to spend $50,000 then

it would suggest the program was not even close to meeting the

standards, and I challenge you, probably not producing students ready

to meet standards either.

May I ask, with all humility, what would you have the EMS community do

to improve the initial education of our Paramedic? If you have not

looked at the NR rates we are not where we need to be. This means our

students suffer, and in the end patients suffer.

We are better now than we where 20 years ago, at least at testing

sites their are not coordinators, and instructors standing at the

doorway reminding their students what the answer to the Dopamine

question was.

Again, I ask, has anyone actually made contact with an Employee at

TDSHS, or a member of GETAC.

It is amazing the most vocal people on this list are some of the most

experienced and intelligent people within the state, with all of your

concerns and a concerted effort you can make a difference in EMS in

Texas. Unfortunately this list is not going make that difference,

unless you are just trying to blow some steam off.

Respectfully

Miles

n Nov 29, 2007 7:55 AM, Hudson

<mhudson@...<mailto:mhudson%40mesquiteisd.org>> wrote:

>

> Consultancy, Equipment, Library Resources, Hiring a Referee, Site Visit

> costs - can add up very quickly - it would all depend on how close a program

> is to meeting the standards already. A program I was affiliated with spent

> about $50,000 for the whole process.

>

> -MH

> ________________________________

> From: texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>

[texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of

> Alan Lambert [ajl442@...<mailto:ajl442%40gmail.com>]

> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 AM

>

> To: texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>

> Subject: Re: Accredited programs in TX

>

> Where did you get that amount, can you cite your source? $50,000? I

> recently worked with an agency that went through the process and the

> cost was much less, more like $5,000.

>

> AJL

>

> On Nov 28, 2007 1:18 PM, Hudson

>

<mhudson@...<mailto:mhudson%40mesquiteisd.org><mailto:mhudson%40mesq\

uiteisd.org>> wrote:

> >

> > This is already out of hand.... the CoAEMSP process as stated before IS

> NOT

> > easy or cheap. We're talking up to $50,000. Dishes needs to prepare a mail

> > out to all advanced programs and have regional coordinator meetings ASAP

> > with NR and CoAEMSP reps to get timely and factual information on this

> > requirement. My program is well set for this. However, the overwhelming

> > majority are not, and oblivious. Five years is a lot shorter than you

> think

> > in getting prepared. Definitive leadership is needed now!!!

> >

> > -MH

> > ________________________________

> > From:

texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:texasems-\

l%40yahoogroups.com>

>

[texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:texasems\

-l%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf

> Of

> > Miles

[scottywmiles@...<mailto:scottywmiles%40gmail.com><mailto:scottywmiles%40g\

mail.com>]

>

> > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:04 PM

> >

> > To:

texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:texasems-\

l%40yahoogroups.com>

>

> > Subject: Re: Accredited programs in TX

> >

> > Thanks to Maxie for settling this before it gets out of hand!

> >

> > Miles

> >

> > On Nov 28, 2007 9:23 AM,

>

<maxifire@...<mailto:maxifire%40aol.com><mailto:maxifire%40aol.com><mailto:m\

axifire%40aol.com>>

>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > CECBEMS

> > >

> > > What are the requirements for organizational accreditation?

> > > Here is a brief summary of the requirements for organizational

> > > accreditation:

> > >

> > > · Provide a written statement approved by its governing body that

> > > supports its EMS continuing education mission.

> > >

> > > · Demonstrate an ongoing needs assessment for specific EMS

> > > educational activities.

> > >

> > > · Submit a letter of recommendation or approval of its state EMS

> > > office.

> > >

> > > · Document resources consistent with its educational mission

> > > relative to EMS continuing education.

> > >

> > > · Submit a current agreement with physician medical director(s) to

> > > provide direction to the EMS and the CECBEMS program committee.

> > >

> > > · Maintain a program committee that reviews and approves all

> > > activities offered by the accredited organization and by cosponsoring

> > > organizations.

> > >

> > > · Comply with CECBEMS policies.

> > >

> > > **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's

> > hottest

> > > products.

> > >

> (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

> > >

> >

>

November 29, 2007

I am losing track of this thread.

1. Is it the consensus that paramedic programs should in no way be

accredited or regulated? If that is the case, Texas had better forget

reciprocity with other states. Also, third party payers may mandate

providers be graduates of accredited programs.

2. Do you want TDSHS to start accrediting programs? Given their

current budget, they can't afford paper clips.

3. GETAC is an advisory panel (I am on one of the committees). That is

it. We have no power other than the power of recommendation.

Medical schools went through the same issue in the early part of the 20th

century after publication of the Flexner report. Now, medical education is

standardized across the United States and across disciplines (MD and DO).

Everybody seems concerned about the accreditation issue but does not offer

alternative other than TDSHS which will NOT be taking on any

responsibilities in the foreseeable future. When you look at allied health

care (e.g., RTs, nuclear techs, etc) all of these professions participate in

the accreditation of programs.

Interestingly, the only states that don't use the National Registry are:

Utah

New York

North Carolina

Massachusetts

Illinois

Florida and Maine use the National Registry for Basic certification only.

Alaska, Indiana, land, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Washington

DC, and

Washington use the National Registry for Paramedic certification only.

November 29, 2007

>>> By my count, if you count an ISD as a non-college based

program...it is 9 non-college affiliated folks and 8 college

affiliated. <<<

Dudley,

How can we keep a good conspiracy theory going if you are going to

interject facts!!!!

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

November 29, 2007

>>> Medical schools went through the same issue in the early part of

the 20th century after publication of the Flexner report. <<<

What is interesting about Flexner's report (in my opinion) is that his

call for standardized education created the exact same objections that

are being posted on this list.

The Medical profession came out of it stronger and the public was

better served by establishing standards for physician education.

I suspect our profession will as well.

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

November 29, 2007

I never alleged a conspiracy.Â I was just asking the makeup, since it's been a

while since I looked at the commitee membership.

Honestly, if I fault anyone, I fault the people who solely complain online.Â I

complain online as much as anyone, and more than most, but when action is

needed, I still pick up the phone, send an email, or write a letter.

Despite the vast membership of this list, not every leader in EMS subscribes to

this list.Â That means if you want your opinion heard, you've still got to

contact them directly.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP

-Attorney/Licensed Paramedic

-Licensed and sanitized for your protectionÂ Â ;-)

Re: Accredited programs in TX

>>> By my count, if you count an ISD as a non-college based

program...it is 9 non-college affiliated folks and 8 college

affiliated. <<<

Dudley,

How can we keep a good conspiracy theory going if you are going to

interject facts!!!!

Kenny Navarro

Dallas

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November 29, 2007

I will admit that I am lucky that I am supported by my employer to both

attend and participate as a committee member in GETAC. There are just as

many that do not have that support yet are at each and every set of

meetings making sure that their voice is heard. I would guess that none

of us are any less busy or important than you are Mr.. Hudson.

GETAC must adhere to the rules of the open meeting and open records act

and therefore can only conduct business in a certain way. The most

feasible is to hold regularly scheduled meetings in as central location

as possible.

If you don't take the time to invest in the system, then you may very

well find yourself working within a system that you don't care for.

I find it hard to believe that of all the EMS educators in the state

there is not one that could " sub " for you so that you could participate

in GETAC. Maybe you could even bring your students along and they could

participate and have a more well rounded education.

Rick , RN, LP, EMS-I

College Station, Texas

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of Hudson

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:56 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: RE: Accredited programs in TX

I don't have the time to go down to GETAC meetings or be on a committee.

When I'm out of the classroom, my students are not learning, and their

stuck with a sub. Every minute in class is critical to their learning.

It would be great if GETAC was more responsive to everyone, rather than

those who can afford the time to participate in Austin. Any GETAC member

out there - please respond....

-MH

________________________________

From: texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>

[texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com> ] On

Behalf Of Henry Barber [hbarber@...

<mailto:hbarber%40cableone.net> ]

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:38 AM

To: texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Accredited programs in TX

Gene,

" Again, why is Texas letting NREMT tell us what we need to do in EMS

education? Why isn't Texas telling NREMT what WE NEED, and demanding

that they

either furnish it or give up the contract? "

A better question is why is GETAC not more vocal on this issue?

Henry

RE: Accredited programs in TX

>

> I'm also concerned about some of the college and independent programs

who

> may have to drop paramedic programs because of the cost of the

accreditation

> process. I have been with 2 programs who have gone through

accreditation.

> It's not cheap, and it takes a mountain of support. Some might say if

the

> program can't go through accreditation, then they are not worth

keeping

> around. However, there are some exceptional programs that just don't

have

> the cash to do it. Hopefully, Dishes and GETAC will muster up and help

with

> the expenses and provide tech assistance to programs seeking the now

> mandatory accreditation( mandatory accreditation(even though THEY

di

> should be a top priority for the GETAC Education Committee.

>

> -MH

>

November 29, 2007

I suppose you really have to be a high school teacher to fully understand. When

I was EMS Director and coordinator in a paramedic program taking GETAC time was

never a problem. I already spend significant time away in required in-services,

HOSA activities, and sick days(like today). Unless you teach HS students, you

can not understand.... as far as taking 60 HS students to Austin for GETAC - I

don't think so...... You are fortuate that you have time to participate in

GETAC, one day you may not.

As stated before GETAC needs to consider coming out in other parts of the state

1 time a year or so. I have talked to several people who can not get away for

GETAC because of lack of employer support. GETAC members need to decentralize

and get out to their constituents. Hey - I think we call that participative

democracy

As far as investing in " this system " let me assure you that for 27 years I have

done so. I will continue to express my ideas and concerns for the benefit of

this man's EMS as well as I can whether it be on this list, in Austin, or

elsewhere. If GETAC members or others choose not to listen or disagree, that's

peachy with me......

-MH

________________________________

From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

, Rick [rick.moore@...]

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:03 PM