Doubting my Therapist's Diagnosis

October 10, 2011

Hi Everyone,

I've been reading posts on here for about a week and I find it helpful, but a

bit overwhelming. Very long story short my therapist recently told me that she

thinks my mom suffers from BPD. I picked up the book " Surviving a Borderline

Parent " and hit hit home. She is the " waif " type. Always a problem, never her

fault, she's a huge victim, blah, blah, blah.

Very short recap of my life with her - childhood was not happy. In all honesty,

I don't have a ton of memories. I know I never felt like I was good enough, she

didn't encourage or support me, she was always grouchy, embarrassed me in public

because she'd get so pissed at other people. She was never someone in my life

that I went to for support. But as I mentioned I don't really remember much

which has always seemed so weird to me (book said it's a common symptom of adult

children). Here's what I'm getting hung up on...she didn't rage all the time,

she wasn't overtly mean to me that much (my husband would disagree with this).

She just wasn't ever really nice...there was always a problem with something. I

was always something to be dealt with. I always had a feeling that something

was wrong. I just really wanted to get the hell out of there.

My dad was fairly absent when I was growing up. He owned a business that my

brother worked at for several years. I didn't have much of a relationship with

him. I listened to him and my mom argue a lot and he gave me money. I've said

to friends a lot that his absence shaped me more than anything he ever really

did. We became close in my twenties for a couple of years when he was first

diagnosed with parkinsons disease. A HUGE lapse of judgement on my part allowed

me to let my husband be convinced to go work for him. Terrible mistake. He

turned back into an ass towards me, fired my husband a week after I found out I

was pregnant with my first child, divorced my mom and spiraled out of control

and has been spiraling out of control ever since (really sick, ran the company

out of business, can't manage finances or meds, won't accept help, etc). I

finally cut ties with him after he threatened to have my husband killed and

called me several awful names. He's terribly manipulative and guilt was his

major weapon. He would say anything to make me feel like I wasn't fulfilling my

obligations to him, that I'm a terrible daughter, etc. After a lot of thought I

think he has narcissistic personality disorder, at least on some level.

Since the divorce my mom has been a total disaster. She tried to commit suicide

once, threatened another time. Both of these incidents got her in a mental

hospital. She fights with my dad non stop, but won't stop talking to him. It's

like a sick addiction. He screwed her financially in the divorce, never pays

her, she says she feels obligated to help (even though he won't accept help).

I've tried to help her relentlessly. I tried to help her with legal issues and

she didn't listen. I try to help her with emotional issues and she doesn't

listen. The list goes on and on and on. And no matter how much I've tried it

always upsets me and I wind up depressed myself. She lives with my brother who

has some serious psychological problems as well (he was the one more enmeshed

with their lives growing up...he did well and I was a HUGE rebel thank god).

The issues with my parents and my struggle in dealing with them have brought a

lot of issues to my marriage as well which is why I originally sought

counseling.

Here is what I'm struggling with...I don't know if she was really this bad when

I was growing up and it just seemed " normal " to me OR if things have gotten a

lot worse because of the divorce. There is obviously a lot more to the story,

but I could type forever. I am pasting a couple of emails to see what people's

responses are. These emails, along with the stories I've told, are what led my

therapist to suggest that she has BPD. For some reason I feel like I'm

exaggerating the truth or that somehow I should be strong enough just to deal

with it and not get so upset. What are your thoughts on the emails below?

This one is in response to an email I sent her trying to clearly state my

boundaries after a phone conversation where she complained incessantly about

money, my brother's legal issues and kept referring to my dad as my sperm donor.

" No, *** you are selfish and self centered. You and *** have

decided what I can say, when I can say it and even maybe why or why I

should or shouldn't say it. I only was telling you the story about

your father because I thought you might get a kick out of it. He

wanted you and ***'s social security numbers. Of course I don't

know them, and I wouldn't have given them to him if I did. I just

thought it was funny. So sorry that you couldn't handle that. You

and *** can become Mother and daughter. I know she is a much

better role model than I have ever been. I also know that the two of

you have talked on several occasions about me and your brother. Have

all the answers , do you both? You know what is so ironic about this,

I'm the one that is in trouble and the two of you can't handle it. My

life is not pretty right now, but you know, I think I'll be just fine.

I don't call everyone up and say whoa is me. I keep plugging along

and hope for the best. Someday it will come. It doesn't sound to me

that I'm that depressed and unhappy. Have a great life now that you

have finally put me out of it. You and *** deserve each other.

Maybe when she is drunk after 4:00PM you can talk to her about all the

things going on in your life. You have both decided that you would

not communicate with me until I came to my senses. Right? I'm sorry

for all the hurtful things I am saying to you right now, but I've had

it with being told how wrong I am all the time, how I should get away

from your crazy brother because he is the Crux's of my problems, I'm

tired of being told what and what not I can talk about. How stupid I

am with all of my decisions in life. One day I will be gone, at the

hands of my Lord, and you will wish you had not treated me the way you

have. I love you, (my son and husband) more than you will ever know or

even want to know, but I am so tired of your attitude toward me and

your brother. I'm so glad you have a stronger will than either he or

I do. Yes, we are the weaker people of this family, and boy do we

catch it from all sides about being the weaker ones. When you want me

back in your life, call because I'll be there. I won't pick and

choose what is best for me, because I love you and you are a part of

me, just like **** is a part or you and therefore I will always be

there to help, listen or even carry you if need be. I am upset now,

but I will get over it. I hope you can find it in your heart to get

over it too. "

Here is another sent a few days later after I didn't respond:

Subject line - I now have no home (which by the way isn't true at all)

" Well one more sad, dysfunctional and negative thing has happened in my

life. *** and I got into an argument last Monday night and we were

yelling in the garage and someone called the police on us. We were

told by one of the police that it was our lovely next door neighbors.

Their friend in the police force is named ***. He isn't even in

the precinct we live in, but because basically they are a militia,

they are called from all over. They called him, and he came running.

*** had been on the phone to tell Kathy that he would not be

picking up the kids and he didn't get the phone hung up and Kathy

heard the whole conversation with the police . She now says that I am

an unfit person for the children to be around. I am moving out. I

don't know where I will go, but I thought I should tell both of you.

Love "

I know this is REALLY long winded but I'm curious if others have similar

experiences with BPD relatives. Also, I'm looking to find some people that have

" waifs " as mothers instead of the rage types...I'm having a very hard time

sorting all of this out in my mind. Looking back over the past few years since

I became pregnant and my dad divorced her there are probably 50 emails like

these if not more. Every conversation with her is a downer. I always wind up

more upset and resentful that I can't share the happy milestones of my son's

life. I feel isolated because it hurts so much that she can't be a support

system for me when I have so much stress in my life right now. Ugh.

Thanks:)

October 11, 2011

Hello,

This stuff really can be overwhelming, especially when you first

learn about BPD.

There's a lot to comment on in what you say. Not raging and

being overtly mean still leaves a lot of room for emotional

abuse. I don't remember my nada overtly raging at me all that

much when I was a child, but there was a lot of meanness and

unmotherly stuff that went on.

The combination of a mother with BPD and a father with NPD seems

fairly common. I think that there are two kinds of men who

manage to stay with women with BPD - the dish rag types who just

put up with the abuse and let their children bear the brunt of

it and the NPD types who are so wrapped up in themselves that

they can deal with it in their own way. (I was sort of lucky. My

father wasn't either type. He just took way too long to see my

nada's true colors. When he did see the truth he divorced her in

short order.)

My guess is that the divorce, and possibly your marriage (nadas

tend to really resent having their children " taken away " by

marriage and often regard getting married as a betrayal), have

made her worse over the years, but also that she probably was

worse than you realized at the time you were growing up. It is

hard to realize that your mother is crazy when her craziness is

all you've known.

The two messages from your nada seem to me to be fairly typical

of nadas. The resentment and blame and failure to take

responsibility for herself all shine through. There's a bit of

the " they're all out to get me " type of paranoia in the second

one as well.

It is sad that she can't be a supportive mother but it does

sound like there's a good chance your therapist is right about

her. If conversations with her leave you feeling down and

resentful, my advice is to have less conversations with her.

Limiting contact can be a difficult decision to make, but you

are entitled to protect yourself and you have a responsibility

to protect your son from craziness. At a minimum, I would refuse

to respond to messages like these two. If having less contact

with her makes you feel isolated, try to get out where you can

be with other people and make friends. We can make our own

" family " of people we choose to care about and who care about

us. We don't have to limit ourselves to our biological families.

At 10:25 PM 10/10/2011 wishingitwasdifferent wrote:

>Hi Everyone,

>

>I've been reading posts on here for about a week and I find it

>helpful, but a bit overwhelming. Very long story short my

>therapist recently told me that she thinks my mom suffers from

>BPD. I picked up the book " Surviving a Borderline Parent " and

>hit hit home. She is the " waif " type. Always a problem, never

>her fault, she's a huge victim, blah, blah, blah.

>

>Very short recap of my life with her - childhood was not

>happy. In all honesty, I don't have a ton of memories. I know

>I never felt like I was good enough, she didn't encourage or

>support me, she was always grouchy, embarrassed me in public

>because she'd get so pissed at other people. She was never

>someone in my life that I went to for support. But as I

>mentioned I don't really remember much which has always seemed

>so weird to me (book said it's a common symptom of adult

>children). Here's what I'm getting hung up on...she didn't

>rage all the time, she wasn't overtly mean to me that much (my

>husband would disagree with this). She just wasn't ever really

>nice...there was always a problem with something. I was always

>something to be dealt with. I always had a feeling that

>something was wrong. I just really wanted to get the hell out

>of there.

>

>My dad was fairly absent when I was growing up. He owned a

>business that my brother worked at for several years. I didn't

>have much of a relationship with him. I listened to him and my

>mom argue a lot and he gave me money. I've said to friends a

>lot that his absence shaped me more than anything he ever

>really did. We became close in my twenties for a couple of

>years when he was first diagnosed with parkinsons disease. A

>HUGE lapse of judgement on my part allowed me to let my husband

>be convinced to go work for him. Terrible mistake. He turned

>back into an ass towards me, fired my husband a week after I

>found out I was pregnant with my first child, divorced my mom

>and spiraled out of control and has been spiraling out of

>control ever since (really sick, ran the company out of

>business, can't manage finances or meds, won't accept help,

>etc). I finally cut ties with him after he threatened to have

>my husband killed and called me several awful names. He's

>terribly manipulative and guilt was his major weapon. He would

>say anything to make me feel like I wasn't fulfilling my

>obligations to him, that I'm a terrible daughter, etc. After a

>lot of thought I think he has narcissistic personality

>disorder, at least on some level.

>

>Since the divorce my mom has been a total disaster. She tried

>to commit suicide once, threatened another time. Both of these

>incidents got her in a mental hospital. She fights with my dad

>non stop, but won't stop talking to him. It's like a sick

>addiction. He screwed her financially in the divorce, never

>pays her, she says she feels obligated to help (even though he

>won't accept help). I've tried to help her relentlessly. I

>tried to help her with legal issues and she didn't listen. I

>try to help her with emotional issues and she doesn't

>listen. The list goes on and on and on. And no matter how

>much I've tried it always upsets me and I wind up depressed

>myself. She lives with my brother who has some serious

>psychological problems as well (he was the one more enmeshed

>with their lives growing up...he did well and I was a HUGE

>rebel thank god).

>

>The issues with my parents and my struggle in dealing with them

>have brought a lot of issues to my marriage as well which is

>why I originally sought counseling.

>

>Here is what I'm struggling with...I don't know if she was

>really this bad when I was growing up and it just seemed

> " normal " to me OR if things have gotten a lot worse because of

>the divorce. There is obviously a lot more to the story, but I

>could type forever. I am pasting a couple of emails to see

>what people's responses are. These emails, along with the

>stories I've told, are what led my therapist to suggest that

>she has BPD. For some reason I feel like I'm exaggerating the

>truth or that somehow I should be strong enough just to deal

>with it and not get so upset. What are your thoughts on the

>emails below?

>

>This one is in response to an email I sent her trying to

>clearly state my boundaries after a phone conversation where

>she complained incessantly about money, my brother's legal

>issues and kept referring to my dad as my sperm donor.

> " No, *** you are selfish and self centered. You and *** have

>decided what I can say, when I can say it and even maybe why or

>why I

>should or shouldn't say it. I only was telling you the story

>about

>your father because I thought you might get a kick out of

>it. He

>wanted you and ***'s social security numbers. Of course I

>don't

>know them, and I wouldn't have given them to him if I did. I

>just

>thought it was funny. So sorry that you couldn't handle

>that. You

>and *** can become Mother and daughter. I know she is a much

>better role model than I have ever been. I also know that the

>two of

>you have talked on several occasions about me and your

>brother. Have

>all the answers , do you both? You know what is so ironic

>about this,

>I'm the one that is in trouble and the two of you can't handle

>it. My

>life is not pretty right now, but you know, I think I'll be

>just fine.

> I don't call everyone up and say whoa is me. I keep plugging

> along

>and hope for the best. Someday it will come. It doesn't sound

>to me

>that I'm that depressed and unhappy. Have a great life now

>that you

>have finally put me out of it. You and *** deserve each other.

>Maybe when she is drunk after 4:00PM you can talk to her about

>all the

>things going on in your life. You have both decided that you

>would

>not communicate with me until I came to my senses. Right? I'm

>sorry

>for all the hurtful things I am saying to you right now, but

>I've had

>it with being told how wrong I am all the time, how I should

>get away

>from your crazy brother because he is the Crux's of my

>problems, I'm

>tired of being told what and what not I can talk about. How

>stupid I

>am with all of my decisions in life. One day I will be gone,

>at the

>hands of my Lord, and you will wish you had not treated me the

>way you

>have. I love you, (my son and husband) more than you will ever

>know or

>even want to know, but I am so tired of your attitude toward me

>and

>your brother. I'm so glad you have a stronger will than either

>he or

>I do. Yes, we are the weaker people of this family, and boy do

>we

>catch it from all sides about being the weaker ones. When you

>want me

>back in your life, call because I'll be there. I won't pick

>and

>choose what is best for me, because I love you and you are a

>part of

>me, just like **** is a part or you and therefore I will always

>be

>there to help, listen or even carry you if need be. I am upset

>now,

>but I will get over it. I hope you can find it in your heart

>to get

>over it too. "

>

>Here is another sent a few days later after I didn't respond:

>

>Subject line - I now have no home (which by the way isn't true

>at all)

> " Well one more sad, dysfunctional and negative thing has

>happened in my

>life. *** and I got into an argument last Monday night and we

>were

>yelling in the garage and someone called the police on us. We

>were

>told by one of the police that it was our lovely next door

>neighbors.

>Their friend in the police force is named ***. He isn't even

>in

>the precinct we live in, but because basically they are a

>militia,

>they are called from all over. They called him, and he came

>running.

>*** had been on the phone to tell Kathy that he would not be

>picking up the kids and he didn't get the phone hung up and

>Kathy

>heard the whole conversation with the police . She now says

>that I am

>an unfit person for the children to be around. I am moving

>out. I

>don't know where I will go, but I thought I should tell both of

>you.

>

>Love "

>

>I know this is REALLY long winded but I'm curious if others

>have similar experiences with BPD relatives. Also, I'm looking

>to find some people that have " waifs " as mothers instead of the

>rage types...I'm having a very hard time sorting all of this

>out in my mind. Looking back over the past few years since I

>became pregnant and my dad divorced her there are probably 50

>emails like these if not more. Every conversation with her is

>a downer. I always wind up more upset and resentful that I

>can't share the happy milestones of my son's life. I feel

>isolated because it hurts so much that she can't be a support

>system for me when I have so much stress in my life right

>now. Ugh.

>

>Thanks:)

--

Katrina

October 11, 2011

Welcome to the Group.

My nada has become more and more Waify as she has aged (she's in her 80's now),

and this started after dad died about 12 years ago, now. He was a kind,

relatively normal, relatively mentally healthy guy who was nevertheless very

compliant and enmeshed with her.

Nada was mostly a Queen bpd with Witch aspects when Sister and I were growing up

and for most of our lives, though. All I can say that is of these two, I find

the Waif more difficult to deal with. At least with a Queen/Witch, there is

visible and obvious verbal and sometimes even physical abuse going on: tangibly

bad things that a KO can deal with (once you can overcome the abject fear of her

wrath and disapproval beaten into you throughout your formative years.)

But the Waif uses guilt and helplessness as manipulative tactics to elicit guilt

and pity, which is a form of emotional abuse I find very hard to get a handle

on and deal with, myself.

My nada has within the last 6 months been diagnosed with Alzheimer's dementia,

and she is no longer able to care for herself properly; she's now living in a

residential care home that specializes in Alzheimer's patients. I only mention

that because its like she is now in Super Waif mode, and I'm now in the position

of feeling real pity for her... and how I am going to handle that is still up in

the air.

I feel certain that members here who have or had Waif or Hermit bpd mothers for

their whole lives will be sharing with you their own experiences, how they have

been dealing with this form of emotional abuse from their bpd mother, etc.

You are not alone.

One of the key concepts I hope you can gain from being in this Group is

realizing and accepting that you did not " break " your parents, and you can't

" fix " them.

Both your parents seem to me to be severely mentally ill, and you seem to feel

responsible for rescuing them. That is the real issue, in my opinion. In order

to have as healthy and productive a life as possible of your own (and be the

best parent and spouse you can be) you will find you need to consider the

concept that you are not responsible for your parents' happiness. You can't

rescue your parents from themselves, only they have the power to seek therapy

and make their own selves happy.

You can wish them well, you can be their cheerleader, but nothing you can

possibly say or do can cure or rescue them from their own mental illnesses, and

if you try to rescue them its likely that they will pull you under to drown

also.

That's the hard thing to accept: that its OK to choose your own survival.

-Annie

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I've been reading posts on here for about a week and I find it helpful, but a

bit overwhelming. Very long story short my therapist recently told me that she

thinks my mom suffers from BPD. I picked up the book " Surviving a Borderline

Parent " and hit hit home. She is the " waif " type. Always a problem, never her

fault, she's a huge victim, blah, blah, blah.

>

> Very short recap of my life with her - childhood was not happy. In all

honesty, I don't have a ton of memories. I know I never felt like I was good

enough, she didn't encourage or support me, she was always grouchy, embarrassed

me in public because she'd get so pissed at other people. She was never someone

in my life that I went to for support. But as I mentioned I don't really

remember much which has always seemed so weird to me (book said it's a common

symptom of adult children). Here's what I'm getting hung up on...she didn't

rage all the time, she wasn't overtly mean to me that much (my husband would

disagree with this). She just wasn't ever really nice...there was always a

problem with something. I was always something to be dealt with. I always had

a feeling that something was wrong. I just really wanted to get the hell out of

there.

>

> My dad was fairly absent when I was growing up. He owned a business that my