Still shaking from conversation

[Guest guest]

I just talked to nada.

Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She hit

every freaking nerve I've got.

I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I was

feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

(i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's why

HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around town---even tho

my daughter does NOT)

And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this at

length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's sake.

I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes. Me. Sick.

I guess she didn't " remember. "

She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and bad

(back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not get

into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then she

whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her.   If she

asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her. My

biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that. I'm

so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's my

KO thinking.

Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick, talking to

her. It affects me and it sucks.

Thanks for listening.

Fiona

[Guest guest]

Oh my Lord, Fi, I'm so sorry!!! I've had those conversations. The kind

where, out of context, another person may not even here the digs.

To tell you the truth, making the decision to go NC w my nada was easy. It

is easy when they are witches who do NOTHING for you and contribute NOTHING

to the relationship. But my dad - he did all of the wining, begging and

ordering. I couldn't deal with the whining.

I talked to my T about my dad whining to me once. She said that men whine

like that when they feel insecure, like they can't be sure they will get

what they want and need from you. . .

Well, even knowing that - I had NO interest in giving him what he

wanted/needed. The cost to my self was too high.

Can you take a week or two off from calling her?

Loves, GS

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Fiona wrote:

> **

>

>

> I just talked to nada.

>

> Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

>

> Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She

> hit every freaking nerve I've got.

>

> I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I

> was feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

> Oh

> And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

> (i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

> daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's

> why HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around

> town---even tho my daughter does NOT)

>

> And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

> evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this

> at length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's

> sake. I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes.

> Me. Sick. I guess she didn't " remember. "

>

> She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and

> bad (back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not

> get into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then

> she whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

> candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

>

> Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her. If

> she asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her.

> My biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

> conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

> getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

> remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

> UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

>

> What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

> tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that.

> I'm so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

>

> I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

> situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's

> my KO thinking.

>

> Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick,

> talking to her. It affects me and it sucks.

>

> Thanks for listening.

>

> Fiona

>

>

[Guest guest]

@ Fionia-I'm sorry, just went through it with my nada and it sucks. Can you

just take a little time to yourself and do someting you really enjoy? I

actually had to break out my anti anxiety pills that I haven't used in two years

yesterday.   The best advice I got was to imagine nada as the chinese or south

korean president when you're speaking with them, takes the personal aspect out

and allows you to make small talk like you would in a public place when someone

was pushing your buttons. And helps steer the conversation back to neutral

grounds Sandar

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:03 AM

Subject: Re: Still shaking from conversation

Oh my Lord, Fi, I'm so sorry!!! I've had those conversations. The kind

where, out of context, another person may not even here the digs.

To tell you the truth, making the decision to go NC w my nada was easy. It

is easy when they are witches who do NOTHING for you and contribute NOTHING

to the relationship. But my dad - he did all of the wining, begging and

ordering. I couldn't deal with the whining.

I talked to my T about my dad whining to me once. She said that men whine

like that when they feel insecure, like they can't be sure they will get

what they want and need from you. . .

Well, even knowing that - I had NO interest in giving him what he

wanted/needed. The cost to my self was too high.

Can you take a week or two off from calling her?

Loves, GS

On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Fiona wrote:

> **

>

>

> I just talked to nada.

>

> Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

>

> Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She

> hit every freaking nerve I've got.

>

> I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I

> was feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

> Oh

> And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

> (i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

> daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's

> why HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around

> town---even tho my daughter does NOT)

>

> And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

> evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this

> at length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's

> sake. I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes.

> Me. Sick. I guess she didn't " remember. "

>

> She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and

> bad (back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not

> get into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then

> she whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

> candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

>

> Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her. If

> she asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her.

> My biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

> conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

> getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

> remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

> UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

>

> What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

> tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that.

> I'm so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

>

> I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

> situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's

> my KO thinking.

>

> Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick,

> talking to her. It affects me and it sucks.

>

> Thanks for listening.

>

> Fiona

>

>

[Guest guest]

(((((Fiona)))))

I think you are right, your insight about your own subconscious motivations is

probably right on target: You probably do feel guilty about setting that

boundary with your nada, so you felt like you deserved to get " beaten up " as

punishment for not being a " good girl " .

That truly, in my opinion, is our biggest hurdle as KOs: overcoming the

misplaced and inappropriate guilt for simply setting reasonable boundaries.

Maybe it would help you to realize that even if you called your nada every day.

Even if you called her twice a day, that would not make her happy. She would

still find reasons to " beat you up " emotionally. Your nada is not a happy

person inside herself, with herself, and she feels entitled to project her

unhappiness onto you or blame you by putting you down with her denigrating,

insulting comments. No wonder you feel sick after phoning her, *anyone would*

after being called a bad mother, bad daughter and a sorry excuse for a human

being for 30 minutes.

I found it hard to *stay in the moment* and just be assertive when I'd have

those kinds of " conversations " with my nada; I'd kind of just go numb, sort of

partially dissociate, then later after the phone call was over I'd feel sick:

the *sudden headache, sudden loud ringing in the ears, room spinning, nausea,

vomiting, crashing into sleep, debilitating* kind of sick. So I understand what

you're talking about. My nadas insults were/are so very skillful and did so

much damage because they are at least partially true. My nada has a way of

sniffing out my vulnerable areas, my insecurities, my fears, my faults and

shortcomings, my failures, and that's what she attacks. My nada is very good

at shaming and humiliating me.

My Sister on the other hand has been able to almost completely emotionally

detach from our nada, which allows Sister to remain in minimal contact without

being tortured by misplaced and inappropriate guilt. It took a couple of years

of therapy with a very good therapist for Sister to achieve this state of

" compassionate detachment. " Sister knows that she is doing the best she can and

is being a very responsible daughter and trustworthy guardian of our nada's care

needs. Sister has been able to accept that our nada has never been happy

inside herself, never happy or at peace with herself, and no matter HOW much

time Sister gave nada or how hard Sister tried to please nada, it would never be

enough.

Sister also came to realize and accept that our nada assuages and soothes her

own inner negativity, fear, envy, jealousy and rage by emotionally beating up

Sister (and me, when I was there, and dad, and her own older sister) and Sister

did not have to allow nada to do that.

If you smash your own finger with a hammer, it does NOT give you the right to go

to your spouse or your child and smash their finger with a hammer so that they

will hurt as much as you do (and then blame them for having hit your own finger

to begin with, and blame them for making you hit them.) That is morally and

ethically wrong, but that is precisely what nada does and she even feels

*entitled* to do that. That is how my nada's mental illness manifests itself:

she has a need to hurt other people when she is hurting.

So, I hope you can find a way to shed your own misplaced and inappropriate

feelings of guilt. You are beating yourself up by allowing your nada to

verbally insult and denigrate you. Each of us has to find the method or

technique that will work for us, as individuals, because each of us has our own

individual relationship dynamic with our nada.

-Annie

>

> I just talked to nada.

>

> Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

>

> Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She hit

every freaking nerve I've got.

>

> I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I was

feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

>

> And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

(i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's why

HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around town---even tho

my daughter does NOT)

>

> And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this at

length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's sake.

I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes. Me. Sick.

I guess she didn't " remember. "

>

> She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and bad

(back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not get

into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then she

whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

>

> Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her.   If she

asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her. My

biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

>

> What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that. I'm

so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

>

> I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's my

KO thinking.

>

> Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick, talking

to her. It affects me and it sucks.

>

> Thanks for listening.

>

> Fiona

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie and Fiona,

I like how you have put this Annie, we each have to find our own method or

technique with our relationship with our nada, and have to set our boundries,

etc. I am in a difficult place right now and reading Fiona's posting and Annie's

reply has helped. I am so tired of feeling guility for setting healthy boundries

that nada and MIL nada mock and try to make me (us) feel bad about.

Honestly, having just had a four day weekend recently with DH's nada and foo for

a celebration, and now my foo and nada for early holidays, I am bobbing up and

down, sick to my stomach in a sea of guilt, disgust, stress and angst. I find

myself just frozen in place in my head trying to process all the gunk that my

family and I have had to wade through and navigate. We have decided to assert

our collective self a bit more with MIL nada and my DH foo, but still working on

how that will look. It is not easy, but so necessary.

> >

> > I just talked to nada.

> >

> > Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

> >

> > Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She

hit every freaking nerve I've got.

> >

> > I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I

was feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

> >

> > And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

(i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's why

HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around town---even tho

my daughter does NOT)

> >

> > And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this at

length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's sake.

I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes. Me. Sick.

I guess she didn't " remember. "

> >

> > She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and

bad (back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not get

into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then she

whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

> >

> > Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her.   If she

asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her. My

biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

> >

> > What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that. I'm

so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

> >

> > I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's my

KO thinking.

> >

> > Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick, talking

to her. It affects me and it sucks.

> >

> > Thanks for listening.

> >

> > Fiona

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your feedback and support, everyone. I truly appreciate and absorb

it.

GS: I agree, if my mother were a complete witch, it would be so much easier to

tell her to eff off and go my own way. But she turns the waif on super high and

it's rough turning away. I feel like I've grown so much in this area, but still

some days it's tough. I would love to take a week or 2 or 3 off from calling

her, but it'll become a federal case, involving my brother and her calling my

house incessantly to find out what she did wrong this time, etc. I think I'll

keep my phone " date, " and make it a day/time when I know she can't talk long or

I can't talk long.

: I *love* that idea, of pretending she's a foreign president. Ha ha!!

That'll help me be patient, cordial, and business like!

Annie: yes, you nailed it: when I talk to her at that moment, it's like I am

dissociating, and then after the call's done is when it all hits me. " My nada is

very good at shaming and humiliating me. " Yes, me, too. Our phone conversation

was one thinly veiled accusation after another. She was definitely wearing her

prosecutor hat, trying to find out why I wasn't visiting (even tho I'd told her

numerous times), why we can't during the week (again, been over it before!) and

why I don't stop by where she works like I used to, all in machine gun fashion.

She is my accuser. That is her role. Why does it still surprise me??

: Am sending you hugs; I feel for you, I know how that feels, as you've

described it, like the aftermath of a vicious, bloody war.

> > >

> > > I just talked to nada.

> > >

> > > Usually, lately, our conversations are delightfully short and superficial.

> > >

> > > Today, ugh, I called her on a Sunday morning, so she had time to talk. She

hit every freaking nerve I've got.

> > >

> > > I must be feeling vulnerable or something b/c, even before calling her, I

was feeling nervous about calling her and knowing she was going to be nasty.

> > >

> > > And she was. You know what I mean, comments like " Yeah, I'm still alive!! "

(i.e., i'm still alive no thanks to you) " You know how SHE is with HER

daughter; SHE doesn't let her wander the streets with her friends. That's why

HER daughter is so bright. " (i.e., your daughter tramps around town---even tho

my daughter does NOT)

> > >

> > > And then she asked me why I don't call her during the week to talk, in the

evenings. Oh my God. Seriously. Is she for real????? We talked about this at

length one day. How I cannot talk to her every day. I WROTE her for God's sake.

I went into detail about it. I basically said, Talking to you Makes. Me. Sick.

I guess she didn't " remember. "

> > >

> > > She sounded like a little kid the way she was asking me; I felt guilty and

bad (back to how vulnerable I was feeling pre- phone call). I just could not get

into it with her and said, " Mom, I don't have time. " That was it. Then she

whined, literally, like when a kid can't have a second piece of

candy.... " awwww... " and she whimpered. It was awful. I changed the subject.

> > >

> > > Then the rest of that conversation was her, her, her, and more her.   If

she asked me about myself, I started talking and then she went back to her. My

biggest mistake in this conversation was thinking it was actually a

conversation, asking her questions, like " oh, isn't her daughter 15? " and

getting responses like [mockingly amused laughter] " NO, she's 13...don't you

remember?? HER daughter was advanced a grade b/c SHE'S bright. "

UGHGHGHGHGGHHGHGHG

> > >

> > > What was wrong with me??? Why couldn't I pull out something from my bag of

tricks, like " oh listen, there goes my doorbell! " or something like that. I'm

so mad at myself for enduring that horrid 29-minute phone call.

> > >

> > > I think I felt like I deserved it for not being there for her for all the

situations she was telling me about. I know I don't deserve it, I know it's my

KO thinking.

> > >

> > > Like I said earlier, I'm still shaking. It really does make me sick,

talking to her. It affects me and it sucks.

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening.

> > >

> > > Fiona

> > >

> > >

> > >