need LC advice for bpd mom and vaccumed family

[Guest guest]

I'm 30 years old and my mom has bpd and she made it very clear to me and others

years ago that she doesn't like my wife and has twisted other family members

into not really liking her too. They aren't mean or anything...but you just

know and plus there's always the cutting subtle remarks which aren't really

obvious enough to address but you know the intent. You always know.

Anyway over the last 7 years or so, I've stopped all contact for 2 years, then

had limited contact. Things we actually going okay (considering) and we had

actually started having more contact (visits). This year we were very busy due

to circumstance. My mom calls me and starts raging at me for not coming to see

her and she wants to see me more etc etc. I handled the call pretty well

actually and at the end of the call I thought yeah great job and things were

mostly okay. Well time has passed now and I find myself dreading future visits

and contact etc.

Background: I've done a very crappy job of protecting my wife all these years

from my family's cutting remarks with hidden undertones towards my wife and her

family and the like.

My wife told me yesterday that she's had a realization and that she shouldn't

have to be subjected to this any longer that she's tried hard to make it work

(and she really does deserve a medal for her effort!) and that she will feel bad

for a while but she is just getting hurt seeing them and there's no benefit.

Everything she said was right. She shouldn't have to suffer any more since

they'll never like her anyway. She said I'm welcome to choose to keep seeing

them by myself.

Well, we were supposed to see them for christmas this year (since we'll

probably be moving to another country in a year - no I haven't told my family)

and my wife said she'd be willing to come with me one more time to see how they

behave but now I'm sitting here thinking...what do I want for us? For starters

she shouldn't be subjected to another visit with them when we know it can only

go so well and I suck at sticking up for her and catching all the cutting

remarks so I definitely don't want her going. But now I'm thinking what do I

want...for me? After the no contact my mom was able to play by the rules okay

but things have started to slip. And although she hasn't don't anything too bad

yet, the prospect of me spending Christmas there sounds like well ...not that

much fun. And of course special occasions brings out the worst in bpd mom.

I am actually going to visit my family and grandparents this weekend by myself

so I guess I'll see how things feel and have a better idea of what I want to do

around the holidays.

I guess my question in all of this is if I decide not to go at christmas (which

I'm leaning towards), do I just make up some excuse about having to work or do I

stop the lies and tell her I need a break? Or would rather spend christmas at

home just the 2 of us this year? (and perhaps I go see them by meslef for new

years or something)

And if after I do the visit this weekend and decide to do the LC, what kind of

experiences do people have with starting LC? I'm thinking about the rage

coming. I've only done NC which at the time was the hardest thing I've ever

done (although worth it). But I find myself overwhelmed with feelings and

realization that things will never be good and she will never get better. And

the sooner I accept that the better. Do I really want our future children

subjected to her and all that craziness. These are the cards I've been dealt

and I guess I need to play them/manage the crappy ones I got and stop trying to

turn them into aces when they never will be.

The whole thing makes me really angry and sad. I know I've been rambling but I

guess what I really need is to hear peoples' experiences doing LC what they

said/did and how the bpd reacted and also if people still have contact while

keeping their spouses and or children safe and out of harms way and if so, what

did they tell their bpd parent/family (if anything) about why their family isn't

joining them or coming for visits anymore?

Thanks for listening. Sorry it's so long and in-cohesive.

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm 30 years old and my mom has bpd and she made it very clear to me and

others years ago that she doesn't like my wife and has twisted other family

members into not really liking her too. They aren't mean or anything...but you

just know and plus there's always the cutting subtle remarks which aren't really

obvious enough to address but you know the intent. You always know.

>

> Anyway over the last 7 years or so, I've stopped all contact for 2 years, then

had limited contact. Things we actually going okay (considering) and we had

actually started having more contact (visits). This year we were very busy due

to circumstance. My mom calls me and starts raging at me for not coming to see

her and she wants to see me more etc etc. I handled the call pretty well

actually and at the end of the call I thought yeah great job and things were

mostly okay. Well time has passed now and I find myself dreading future visits

and contact etc.

>

> Background: I've done a very crappy job of protecting my wife all these years

from my family's cutting remarks with hidden undertones towards my wife and her

family and the like.

>

> My wife told me yesterday that she's had a realization and that she shouldn't

have to be subjected to this any longer that she's tried hard to make it work

(and she really does deserve a medal for her effort!) and that she will feel bad

for a while but she is just getting hurt seeing them and there's no benefit.

>

> Everything she said was right. She shouldn't have to suffer any more since

they'll never like her anyway. She said I'm welcome to choose to keep seeing

them by myself.

>

> Well, we were supposed to see them for christmas this year (since we'll

probably be moving to another country in a year - no I haven't told my family)

and my wife said she'd be willing to come with me one more time to see how they

behave but now I'm sitting here thinking...what do I want for us? For starters

she shouldn't be subjected to another visit with them when we know it can only

go so well and I suck at sticking up for her and catching all the cutting

remarks so I definitely don't want her going. But now I'm thinking what do I

want...for me? After the no contact my mom was able to play by the rules okay

but things have started to slip. And although she hasn't don't anything too bad

yet, the prospect of me spending Christmas there sounds like well ...not that

much fun. And of course special occasions brings out the worst in bpd mom.

>

> I am actually going to visit my family and grandparents this weekend by myself

so I guess I'll see how things feel and have a better idea of what I want to do

around the holidays.

>

> I guess my question in all of this is if I decide not to go at christmas

(which I'm leaning towards), do I just make up some excuse about having to work

or do I stop the lies and tell her I need a break? Or would rather spend

christmas at home just the 2 of us this year? (and perhaps I go see them by

meslef for new years or something)

>

> And if after I do the visit this weekend and decide to do the LC, what kind of

experiences do people have with starting LC? I'm thinking about the rage

coming. I've only done NC which at the time was the hardest thing I've ever

done (although worth it). But I find myself overwhelmed with feelings and

realization that things will never be good and she will never get better. And

the sooner I accept that the better. Do I really want our future children

subjected to her and all that craziness. These are the cards I've been dealt

and I guess I need to play them/manage the crappy ones I got and stop trying to

turn them into aces when they never will be.

>

> The whole thing makes me really angry and sad. I know I've been rambling but

I guess what I really need is to hear peoples' experiences doing LC what they

said/did and how the bpd reacted and also if people still have contact while

keeping their spouses and or children safe and out of harms way and if so, what

did they tell their bpd parent/family (if anything) about why their family isn't

joining them or coming for visits anymore?

>

> Thanks for listening. Sorry it's so long and in-cohesive.

>

[Guest guest]

Journey -

I'm responding both as a KO (kid of) a BPD mom and as a spouse whose husband's

family is completely dysfunctional and very unpleasant to be around (imagine the

Beverly Hillbillies without the charm, common sense, or good character). As

with your wife, my husband has not done a very good job of " having my back " over

the years, insisting that they're his FAM-ily, I'm being a snob, why can't I

just get along with them, yada yada yada... They are truly awful people, and

even though their behavior hasn't been aimed at me personally, they are general

offensive in many ways, and I don't want to spend time in their company at all,

ever. Subjecting my child to them was absolutely out of the question. This led

to many fights with my spouse over the years. So I think I can identify with

what your wife is feeling.

Okay - so as an adult child of a BPD, I finally realized that I did not have to

kowtow to my crazy mother, and that what she said to and about me my whole life

was not true (believe it or not, I am not the World's Worst Person!) Once I

stopped beating up on myself from the Nada-imposed guilt, I looked around and

realized that I was completely justified in demanding that I not be subjected to

the Hideous In-Laws, either. Going NC (complete no-contact) or very very LC

(not much contact, and no emotional involvement) with one's own aged mother is a

lot of emotional work. After that, it's a snap to put up unassailable

boundaries with in-laws.

I told my husband that I understood his desire to maintain contact with his

brother's family, but that I would not be interacting with the in-laws in

future, and if required to be at the same event (like a funeral), I would be

pleasant, formal, and have the car parked so I could leave at a moment's notice

- so he'd better have a way home. I have stuck to that policy, with varying

degrees of success. But he knows now that, while I'm not going to instigate

fights with them, I won't sit and smile quietly while they put on the Dumb

Dysfunctional Redneck show, either. I've got other places I can be, and life is

too short to spend holidays with people you loathe.

On the flip side, I have also demonstrated that I will not subject him (or our

son) to my mother's craziness. Contact with her is unavoidable, since I have to

manage her affairs now. But my family is never, ever required to go visit, and

I will never, ever bring her into our home again. I go visit her in the

assisted living home, and try my best to leave her craziness behind. I expect

my husband to do the same with his passel of kinfolk. Of course, there are

times when contact is unavoidable, but I put those barriers up and keep them

there. And - very important - I will not apologize for keeping my son away from

them. Ever. Again, this has been a point of argument over the years.

Most recently, my husband has had to come to grips with the fact that his family

really is a mess, and I think he's finally had to admit to himself that he

doesn't much like them, either. I admire the fact that he retains the ability

to love such an unlovable bunch (I guess it means he'll put up with me, too).

However, he's about come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to spend his

holidays with them, either - and because I've broken that ground already, he's

finally getting to the point that he doesn't feel an obligation to spend time

with them just because it's the final Thursday in November. (For which I am

truly grateful... better late than never.)

So here's what I think about the questions you've asked. First, you need to ask

yourself what your wedding vows mean to you. If you are committed to your wife,

and to the whole " cleaving only unto " her part, then your question is mostly

answered for you. You and your wife are a family. Your " FOO " (family of

origin) is secondary to that. Are the holidays important to your wife? If so,

don't split the day with your FOO. Plan something special for just the two of

you, even if it's just brunch at home, or grilling a steak for Thanksgiving.

For the first year or two, it might be easier if you plan a trip out of town

during each " family " holiday (whether you actually go or not, you can announce

the plans.) If you want to visit your FOO, do it on the day (or weekend) before

or after. Knowing that you CHOOSE HER is what's most important to your spouse.

No matter how you try to explain it, choosing the FOO on a major holiday sends a

very clear message to your wife. If she's been a faithful, supportive partner,

she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. This is the woman who's sworn to

stay with you when you're old and feeble. Give her the respect and loyalty she

deserves.

You also mentioned future children. Let me be very clear - adding kids to the

mix changes the dynamic. If your FOO is running roughshod over your wife,

they'll use " grandparents' rights to see the baby " as ammunition. And when a

(sane) woman becomes a mother, there is NOTHING she won't do to protect her

child. You want to see fury? Just try to force her to take her precious baby

into a dysfunctional, vicious house full of relatives and put up with their crap

because they have a " right " to see the grandchild. (By the way - they don't.)

It won't be pretty, and you both might wind up saying things you'll regret. (We

did.)

My son is now pretty much grown, and the in-laws' behavior has led them to

logical and predictable conclusions (dropouts, criminal records, general

shiftlessness) - so it's clear that they would have been terrible influences on

our boy, and I don't feel a bit of remorse for insisting that he not be

subjected to my husband's FOO. But it was a hard-won battle, and our marriage

still bears the scars. I don't recommend it. You need to deal with this now,

and if you care for your wife (and future kids), you already know what you need

to do.

Best of luck - I know it's going to be unpleasant. But you picked a teammate.

She'll help you with this. (As will we, your fellow-travelers.)

[Guest guest]

Welcome Journey,

I can related to your situation so much. I have an undiagnosed BP mother and

MIL. Things with both of them have progressively gotten worse over the years.

About eight years ago my husband and I expereinced becoming the " bad kids " in my

nada's view, especially my husband. My nada began doing exactly what you

describe your nada doing. It is a no win situation with your nada and family

because they are not intersted in how you and your wife feel, they are about

themselves and not treating either of you with the respect or the consideration

you deserve.

Forgive yourself for not being more supportive of your wife. This whole thing is

very overwhelming and denial is a very strong self defense mechanism that

sometimes gets in our way.

It sounds like the two of you are in a place where you are ready to work as a

real team on this now. That is exciting because together you can be stronger and

help one another and protect one another.

I can tell you that in the past year I decided to go LC with my nada and FOO.

Definately not what they want, but I had to. The emotional beatings my husband

and I would have to recover from after family birthdays, holidays, etc. was

brutal. My nada is also much worse at holidays with all the family there.

What we did:

I still want a relationship with my nada so I call her approx. every week and a

half (my dad died this year so this caused me to increase my calling from every

3 weeks).

I go spend time with her one-on-one when it works for me and mine. I keep these

visits to 3-4 hours and focus them on doing things around her house to help her

out. We do much better when there are no other family members around and it

allows us to bond and share the glimpses of positive we still have together. I

use the term bonded carefully, as we don't really relate deeply - I keep it on

the surface but we do connect. I make these visits earlier in the day to avoid

the likelyhood that she will drink as this makes things worse sometimes. Rarely

does my husband come with me anymore, and when he doesn't I tell her my husband

sends his best and that he is doing whatever today - I don't lie about this but

I am rather general, something like he and our son are fishing or he is working

on our yard, etc. She values these things so it usually goes without a problem.

I let my family know (two young adult kids and husband) when I am going to see

nada and what we'll be doing in case anyone wants to join me. Sometimes one of

the kids come, we still keep it to 3-4 hours and we " do " something. If a meal is

involved it is breakfast or lunch. I am home for dinner each night.

My husband does attend the family Christmas gathering but this year we asked it

be limited to the 3-4 hours, or at least the festivities be focused so those of

us who need to leave can. This was received with some resentment from my nada

and sister (very emeshed with nada and rather NP) but I let them know this made

it much better for my family as our kids are twenty somethings and busy and also

my husband has chronic back pain and needs to be able to get home after a time.

This gets received with some resentment, after all you cannot see his pain and

they often forget he has chronic pain I think. But I remind them that we will

need to leave at whatever time and let it go. They are going to complain about

things anyway and I feel they are lucky he even goes at all, so tough. However,

sometimes he will tell me he just can't and I have come to accept that. WHen I

show up alone or with just the kids or one of them, I say he wasn't up for it-

not feeling well, etc.. I have learned not to over explain as they just use it

against me, plus I am terrible at lying so it is better to just keep it brief

and general.

I have learned that at least in my family being honest and trying to tell them

that what they say is hurtful, etc. only leads to worse behavior so I don't

explain anymore.

I have gotten some satisfaction setting new boundries and at first it felt

weird, but now it doesn't. When I go alone I know I am only there for a set

time. I keep it positive and appreciate that when I get home my husband will be

there and he " gets " it and I can debrief with him and he appreciates that I

respect his need to stay home and not be subjected to the abuse. When he does

come we set a definate leave time that I have come to really honor. It just

isn't fair to go beyond the time becaue then he just feels like a caged animal

and gets really upset. I have come to realize this and even if it miffs nada, we

go when we said we would.

Having new boundries and a before plan and honoring it has really helped our

relationship around my nada and FOO. It is so important that your wife feels

that you have her best interest in mind and she yours. It is not easy and

sometimes there are still disagreements about things, but it is much better as a

team. Our kids really appreciate being able to make their own decisions about it

and I appreciate that they do come with me sometimes and do call her once in a

while and write thank you notes, etc. I feel they are seeing healthy boundries

and that we feel better about being more empowered by setting them.

You cannot change your FOO. All you can do is find what works for you and yours

and act on it, set boundries and respect one another. It is a process and a

journey and it is not easy, but it is much easier than getting emotionally beat

up by your FOO and feeling distant from your wife.

With regard to the holiday question you posed. I am much more of a fan of

suggesting you visit your family during a non holiday weekend as you mentioned

(without your wife) and just say she was not able to come with you but she sends

her best or whatever. I think your idea to tell them you plan on spending the

holiday alone at your home is perfect. HOlidays are stressful for everyone,

especially families like ours who have such challenges. You are taking the time

to see them now and letting them know you love them and wish them a wonderful

holiday and will see them again soon (not New Years or Valentine's DAy!). They

won't like the change at first but will learn to accept it.

I went from being the all accomodating, flexible, make everyone happy, be at all

the events the longest middle child (middle of three)to totally setting

boundries and spending Thanksgiving and Christmas at home with just my immediate

family. They don't like it and probably complain about it together and bash us

for it, but we LOVE our peaceful, joyful relaxing holidays together. I do see my

FOO, just when it is good for me and mine. My husband sees them when he can.

They are going to bash us either way, we might as well feel good about it (or at

least better) and reduce our stress and trust one another in the process.

You both deserve to feel safe, trusted and happy as well.

Good Luck,

>

> I'm 30 years old and my mom has bpd and she made it very clear to me and

others years ago that she doesn't like my wife and has twisted other family

members into not really liking her too. They aren't mean or anything...but you

just know and plus there's always the cutting subtle remarks which aren't really

obvious enough to address but you know the intent. You always know.

>

> Anyway over the last 7 years or so, I've stopped all contact for 2 years, then

had limited contact. Things we actually going okay (considering) and we had

actually started having more contact (visits). This year we were very busy due

to circumstance. My mom calls me and starts raging at me for not coming to see

her and she wants to see me more etc etc. I handled the call pretty well

actually and at the end of the call I thought yeah great job and things were

mostly okay. Well time has passed now and I find myself dreading future visits

and contact etc.

>

> Background: I've done a very crappy job of protecting my wife all these years

from my family's cutting remarks with hidden undertones towards my wife and her

family and the like.

>

> My wife told me yesterday that she's had a realization and that she shouldn't

have to be subjected to this any longer that she's tried hard to make it work

(and she really does deserve a medal for her effort!) and that she will feel bad

for a while but she is just getting hurt seeing them and there's no benefit.

>

> Everything she said was right. She shouldn't have to suffer any more since

they'll never like her anyway. She said I'm welcome to choose to keep seeing

them by myself.

>

> Well, we were supposed to see them for christmas this year (since we'll

probably be moving to another country in a year - no I haven't told my family)

and my wife said she'd be willing to come with me one more time to see how they

behave but now I'm sitting here thinking...what do I want for us? For starters

she shouldn't be subjected to another visit with them when we know it can only

go so well and I suck at sticking up for her and catching all the cutting

remarks so I definitely don't want her going. But now I'm thinking what do I

want...for me? After the no contact my mom was able to play by the rules okay

but things have started to slip. And although she hasn't don't anything too bad

yet, the prospect of me spending Christmas there sounds like well ...not that

much fun. And of course special occasions brings out the worst in bpd mom.

>

> I am actually going to visit my family and grandparents this weekend by myself

so I guess I'll see how things feel and have a better idea of what I want to do

around the holidays.

>

> I guess my question in all of this is if I decide not to go at christmas

(which I'm leaning towards), do I just make up some excuse about having to work

or do I stop the lies and tell her I need a break? Or would rather spend

christmas at home just the 2 of us this year? (and perhaps I go see them by

meslef for new years or something)

>

> And if after I do the visit this weekend and decide to do the LC, what kind of

experiences do people have with starting LC? I'm thinking about the rage

coming. I've only done NC which at the time was the hardest thing I've ever

done (although worth it). But I find myself overwhelmed with feelings and

realization that things will never be good and she will never get better. And

the sooner I accept that the better. Do I really want our future children

subjected to her and all that craziness. These are the cards I've been dealt

and I guess I need to play them/manage the crappy ones I got and stop trying to

turn them into aces when they never will be.

>

> The whole thing makes me really angry and sad. I know I've been rambling but

I guess what I really need is to hear peoples' experiences doing LC what they

said/did and how the bpd reacted and also if people still have contact while

keeping their spouses and or children safe and out of harms way and if so, what

did they tell their bpd parent/family (if anything) about why their family isn't

joining them or coming for visits anymore?

>

> Thanks for listening. Sorry it's so long and in-cohesive.

>