San A

[Guest guest]

Slightly different viewpoint....

Paramedic was following training, union official says

By ELIZABETH WHITE

Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO - A paramedic was acting according to his training when he

moved on to help other victims of a car accident without checking vital

signs of a woman who appeared dead but was actually alive, a San

firefighters association official said Wednesday.

Mike Gardner, 35, was transferred to the San Fire Department's

firefighting division and permanently restricted from working as a

paramedic in San Tuesday after not checking the pulse of a

N. , 23. remained in the car's wreckage with a tarp over her

body for more than an hour Dec. 16 before a medical examiner discovered

she was still breathing. She died from her injuries the next day.

Protocol calls for paramedics to check vital signs regardless of a

patient's injury. Steele, president of the San

Professional Firefighters Association, said paramedics are told in

training that if there is " massive visual trauma, " they can move on to

other victims " in the initial stages " of an emergency operation.

Steele said Gardner observed " brain matter all over the place " when

assessing . " Mike Gardner performed under current practice. ... I

would venture to say that I can find 200 other paramedics that can say

the same thing, " Steele said. " We don't want to make excuses, because he

really is emotional and he's sorry, but it's difficult from my

perspective to let him solely take the fall when we know this is what

we're trained to do. "

But Gordon, medical director for San Emergency Medical

Services, said training for paramedics matches written policy. " That's

false. They're told always to check the vital signs, " said Gordon, who

has been in charge of medical training and medical direction for the San

Fire Department for 21 years. " It's standard for every patient

and it is done consistently for every patient. " Gordon said paramedics

take a 40-hour refresher course every year, which every other year

includes " pre-hospital trauma life support. " He said Gardner attended at

least two of the refresher courses. " I have written policy that says

determine " vital signs, Gordon said. " They're told the same thing in

class. "

The Fire Department referred questions to the office of the city

manager, who did not immediately return a call or e-mail seeking

comment. Steele said Gardner would not speak about the incident because

of medical privacy laws, adding that Gardner is a member of the

association. " That was his patient, so he can't say anything about the

case, " Steele said. " Through me he is saying he's not allowed to

comment. "

A message left by The Associated Press for a Gardner in San

at a number from an online phone book listing was not

immediately returned Wednesday. Steele said Gardner arrived on the scene

of the December accident with one other paramedic. Between the two cars

in the accident, in which one crossed a highway median and slammed into

the car in which was the front passenger, there were four victims.

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threatening injuries.

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

[Guest guest]

Really?? My protocols say trauma incompatible with life and ABSENT vitals signs.

I bet Mr. Steele has a harder time than he thinks, finding those 200 other

Paramedics to back that up. It is of this medic's opinion that Mr. Steele

couldn't be more wrong. Thanks Kenny for bringing it to our attention.

Jeff Huntley

FF/Paramedic/FTO

Keller Fire Rescue

B-Shift Sta. 2

San A

Slightly different viewpoint....

Paramedic was following training, union official says

By ELIZABETH WHITE

Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO - A paramedic was acting according to his training when he

moved on to help other victims of a car accident without checking vital

signs of a woman who appeared dead but was actually alive, a San

firefighters association official said Wednesday.

Mike Gardner, 35, was transferred to the San Fire Department's

firefighting division and permanently restricted from working as a

paramedic in San Tuesday after not checking the pulse of a

N. , 23. remained in the car's wreckage with a tarp over her

body for more than an hour Dec. 16 before a medical examiner discovered

she was still breathing. She died from her injuries the next day.

Protocol calls for paramedics to check vital signs regardless of a

patient's injury. Steele, president of the San

Professional Firefighters Association, said paramedics are told in

training that if there is " massive visual trauma, " they can move on to

other victims " in the initial stages " of an emergency operation.

Steele said Gardner observed " brain matter all over the place " when

assessing . " Mike Gardner performed under current practice. ... I

would venture to say that I can find 200 other paramedics that can say

the same thing, " Steele said. " We don't want to make excuses, because he

really is emotional and he's sorry, but it's difficult from my

perspective to let him solely take the fall when we know this is what

we're trained to do. "

But Gordon, medical director for San Emergency Medical

Services, said training for paramedics matches written policy. " That's

false. They're told always to check the vital signs, " said Gordon, who

has been in charge of medical training and medical direction for the San

Fire Department for 21 years. " It's standard for every patient

and it is done consistently for every patient. " Gordon said paramedics

take a 40-hour refresher course every year, which every other year

includes " pre-hospital trauma life support. " He said Gardner attended at

least two of the refresher courses. " I have written policy that says

determine " vital signs, Gordon said. " They're told the same thing in

class. "

The Fire Department referred questions to the office of the city

manager, who did not immediately return a call or e-mail seeking

comment. Steele said Gardner would not speak about the incident because

of medical privacy laws, adding that Gardner is a member of the

association. " That was his patient, so he can't say anything about the

case, " Steele said. " Through me he is saying he's not allowed to

comment. "

A message left by The Associated Press for a Gardner in San

at a number from an online phone book listing was not

immediately returned Wednesday. Steele said Gardner arrived on the scene

of the December accident with one other paramedic. Between the two cars

in the accident, in which one crossed a highway median and slammed into

the car in which was the front passenger, there were four victims.

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threatening injuries.

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@... writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10-Jan-08 08:28:14 Central Standard Time,

ExLngHrn@... writes:

Cynically?speaking, if you're a firefighter who doesn't want to do EMS, how

is this a punishment?

I am NOT saying that this is the case at all in this circumstance.I am NOT

saying that this is the case at all in this circumstance.<WBR>?However, if you

told some, NOT ALL, firefighters that they were being relieved of patient

care responsibilities and being sent back to an engine/

That brings up the question -- should this be treated as disciplinary or as

training/remediatioTh

-Wes Ogilvie

ck: If they look at being transferred back to a line company as relief, then

I have even more problems with the Medic side of the FD admin. and if I was

the medical director, I'd be looking at remediation (hence my suggestions

for the FTO and run review) before discipline...and if it is to be discipline,

then the boyos don't need to be on the BRTs either....because if one of the

other three didn't recheck that fourth victim out of incorrectible stupidity,

then 'two in/two out' isn't going to work either, and one day, one of the FF

siblings is going to find him/herself on the wrong end of a dry hose, alone

and out of air.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

Cynically?speaking, if you're a firefighter who doesn't want to do EMS, how is

this a punishment?

I am NOT saying that this is the case at all in this circumstance.?However, if

you told some, NOT ALL, firefighters that they were being relieved of patient

care responsibilities and being sent back to an engine/ladder company, they

would not be inclined to look on it as punishment.

That brings up the question -- should this be treated as disciplinary or as

training/remediation?

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: San A

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@... writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

The way I read this is that the City is not letting the practice but they will

maintain their State Certification. Question, if they respond on a first out

engine and arrive on a scene and do not provide care are they then open to a

breech of duty case?

>>> 1/10/2008 8:24 AM >>>

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@... writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

Wes Ogilvie wrote:

" I am NOT saying that this is the case at all in this circumstance.?However,

if you told some, NOT ALL, firefighters that they were being relieved of patient

care responsibilities and being sent back to an engine/ladder company, they

would not be inclined to look on it as punishment. "

Most systems do not differentiate between a firefighter on an engine and a

firefighter on an engine. Certainly not compensation wise. Invariably, the work

product of a medic is going to be higher, thus devaluing his compensation in

comparison to his engine company siblings.

Who in there right mind is going to say " I get the same amount of money as B,

but he only works half as often - Wheee! " ?

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Ooops... meant to say 'firefighter on an engine and a firefighter on an

ambulance'.

Larry wrote:

Wes Ogilvie wrote:

" I am NOT saying that this is the case at all in this circumstance.?However, if

you told some, NOT ALL, firefighters that they were being relieved of patient

care responsibilities and being sent back to an engine/ladder company, they

would not be inclined to look on it as punishment. "

Most systems do not differentiate between a firefighter on an engine and a

firefighter on an engine. Certainly not compensation wise. Invariably, the work

product of a medic is going to be higher, thus devaluing his compensation in

comparison to his engine company siblings.

Who in there right mind is going to say " I get the same amount of money as B,

but he only works half as often - Wheee! " ?

" A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the

simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3

---------------------------------

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Guest guest]

This brings up a great point. The clear majority of runs that engines are sent

on are medical calls. So, I'm assuming that these individuals can't even

practice at the BLS level when they're first due on a medical?

Re: San A

>

>The way I read this is that the City is not letting the practice but they will

maintain their State Certification. Question, if they respond on a first out

engine and arrive on a scene and do not provide care are they then open to a

breech of duty case?

>

>>>> 1/10/2008 8:24 AM >>>

>

>In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

>kenny.shaw@... writes:

>

> " Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

>matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

>do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

>there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

>impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

>While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

>the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

>The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

>with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

>responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

>licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

>

>

>

>to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

>on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

>happened.

>

>I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

>get these four medics their due process.

>

>I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

>evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run

reviews

>for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

>of due process strikes me as fishy.

>

>And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

>their competency in a hot situation.

>

>ck

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

>

>

>**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

>http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One would hope that there would be additional firefighters on the engine who are

" cleared " to practice by the medical director, otherwise I'd assume that such

care would be limited to the same CPR and first aid that a layperson would give.

-Wes Ogilvie

Re: San A

The way I read this is that the City is not letting the practice but they will

maintain their State Certification. Question, if they respond on a first out

engine and arrive on a scene and do not provide care are they then open to a

breech of duty case?

>>> 1/10/2008 8:24 AM >>>

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@... writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

That could happen.

G

>

> The way I read this is that the City is not letting the practice but they

> will maintain their State Certification. Question, if they respond on a first

> out engine and arrive on a scene and do not provide care are they then open to

> a breech of duty case?

>

> >>> 1/10/2008 8:24 AM >>>

>

> In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

> kenny.shaw@... writes:

>

> " Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

> matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

> do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

> there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

> impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

> While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

> the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threatenin the car to

> The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

> with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

> responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

> licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

>

> to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

> on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

> happened.

>

> I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

> get these four medics their due process.

>

> I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

> evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run

> reviews

> for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without

> evidence

> of due process strikes me as fishy.

>

> And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

> their competency in a hot situation.

>

> ck

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

> ************ ************<wbr>**Start the year off right. Easy ways to s

> http://body.http://body.<wbrhttp://body.<wbrhttp://body.<wbrhttp://bo

>

>

[Guest guest]

At SAFD, becoming a paramedic and working on the ambulance is a promotion and

necessary to move up in either the EMS or FD side of the house.? This has

essentially relegated this gentleman to riding backwards on the fire engine for

his entire career.

BTW, when this was published it was also followed up by an editorial saying how

it was about time that they released who the paramedic was since " when police

officers are involved in a shooting, the PD releases their names, records and

places them on paid administrative leave " .? Think about this...giving out PD

officer's personal information is not possible under Texas law...you may show

their picture...but you can't search state databases and get demographic

information...and most of them have unlisted numbers so that they cannot be

found when things like this happen that upset a community...want this

gentleman's phone number and address...file a public information request with

the City of San ...

These four guys have had their pictures plastered all over the news (TV and

print and internet) and are getting called at home and having people ringing

their doorbells...one more thing we may want to take from this...how about some

legislation to provide the rest of the public servants the same protections that

PD officers get???

Imagine the pressure this is placing upon them, their families and

friends...imagine...you made a mistake and you become the most famous and easily

recognizable person in a city of 1.5Million people....

Dudley

Re: San A

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@... writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Guest guest]

As public servants - fame and infamy are part of the gig.....

________________________________

From: texasems-l [texasems-l ] On Behalf Of

THEDUDMAN@... [THEDUDMAN@...]

Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 12:02 AM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: San A

At SAFD, becoming a paramedic and working on the ambulance is a promotion and

necessary to move up in either the EMS or FD side of the house.? This has

essentially relegated this gentleman to riding backwards on the fire engine for

his entire career.

BTW, when this was published it was also followed up by an editorial saying how

it was about time that they released who the paramedic was since " when police

officers are involved in a shooting, the PD releases their names, records and

places them on paid administrative leave " .? Think about this...giving out PD

officer's personal information is not possible under Texas law...you may show

their picture...but you can't search state databases and get demographic

information...and most of them have unlisted numbers so that they cannot be

found when things like this happen that upset a community...want this

gentleman's phone number and address...file a public information request with

the City of San ...

These four guys have had their pictures plastered all over the news (TV and

print and internet) and are getting called at home and having people ringing

their doorbells...one more thing we may want to take from this...how about some

legislation to provide the rest of the public servants the same protections that

PD officers get???

Imagine the pressure this is placing upon them, their families and

friends...imagine...you made a mistake and you become the most famous and easily

recognizable person in a city of 1.5Million people....

Dudley

Re: San A

In a message dated 09-Jan-08 17:11:58 Central Standard Time,

kenny.shaw@...<mailto:kenny.shaw%40dallascityhall.com> writes:

" Mike Gardner comes, he looks, he sees a female and ... he saw brain

matter all over the place, " Steele said. " He looked, he said, 'I can't

do anything for her.' There's three more people. " " In any emergency

there's a buildup " of personnel, Steele added. " People have the

impression that there's an emergency and there's 10 firefighters there. "

While was left unattended, paramedics took the other two people in

the car to the hospital with serious but non-life-threateninthe car to

The driver of the other vehicle, Ann Ybarra, 28, has been charged

with intoxication manslaughter, police said. Three other paramedics who

responded to the accident have been demoted and stripped of their

licenses to practice emergency care in the city, officials said.

to me, this has all the smell of someone in the city admin making like a cat

on a linoleum floor....trying to cover up something that shouldn't have

happened.

I'm hoping that the Union has enough of a back bone to go after the admin to

get these four medics their due process.

I could see putting Mr. Gardner back under an FTO for six months to re

evaluate his skills, and subjecting the other three to comprehensive run reviews

for a while, but to 'demote' all of them back to Firefighter without evidence

of due process strikes me as fishy.

And if they are not competent to work as Medics, then I have questions as to

their competency in a hot situation.

ck

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489