Re: Re: ME and religion

[Guest guest]

Hi Echobabe,

I share a dream, in this post that may be triggering, but ends ok . . . .

..

I finally came to the conclusion that " religion " and a state of " grace "

within the context of the universe have very little to do with each other.

For myself, I appreciate the *intent* of religion at its best, ( as I

interpret it, the desire to connect with a positive power greater than

oneself,) and the *intent * of someone wishing to pray for me, ( to add

compassionate support, and strengthen the connection to the divine, to

another person during a time of need,) but I also add, in my own heart an

adenda to their prayers, that " The Great All that Is' " whatever that may

or may not be, not let other peoples agendas, form, or processing get in

the way of my relationship with the Devine.

Personally, many of my own experiences of spiritual grace and

compassion have come, when most needed, from totally unexpected,

inexplicable, and unorthadox sources, leaving me stunned, humble, and

deeply grateful.

In a BPD home environment, or any kind of interaction with character

disorders, *everything and anything* is fodder and supply for their

disordered machinations.

The weather, your hair, *their* hair family pets, stray animals, wonderful

strangers, psychic phenomenon, UFOs, what the neighbors might be thinking,

what YOU are really thinking, diet, bodily functions, the *right* way to

do anything, the* wrong* way to do anything, and on, and on and on . . . .

Any penny fits the slot, and religion is an especially shiny penny for many

character disorders.

After all, if you've got the BIG GUY on your side, punishing you and

others, or, perversely, *against* you, you can stir up a lot of drama and

chaos, and, as we all have experienced, manipulation, control, drama and

chaos are the sum and substance of the Character Disordered individuals

life. They use EVERYTHING within grasp to control and manipulate. They

can, do, and will use anything and everything you love, respect, and hope

for to bludgeon you over the head with, to control you, to keep you afraid,

dependent, uncertain.

Character Disordered Individuals do not perceive* anyone else* as being a

real person, with the right to be treated with integrity and compassion. In

fact, the lack of, or inability to experience the state of empathy and

compassion are hallmarks of the Character Disordered Individual. They may

behave " as if " they are expressing these traits, but their brains do not

experience the same chemical tides in these areas of the brain, that non-

disordered people experience. Compassion and empathy are simply not " there "

for these people, and their attempts to express such states are always

theatrical and manipulative, and are always in the service of their

disorder.

" Religion, " is all too often used as a weapon or a malignant tool by

those with bad intent. It can be terrifying and ruinous. However, when we,

like Dorothy, look behind the curtain, and challenge the man (or woman)

pulling the strings and making the scary voices, we can begin to divest

ourselves of the lies, manipulation, and bad intent of those who sought to

manipulate and control us in the service of their own brokeness.

I don't know what God is or isn't for anyone else, or if God does or

doesn't exist, but a deep, inexorable longing within me cries out in the

darkness of my own pain and grief for succor and relief, and my heart

breaks into millions of tiny pieces knowing that there are others who also

suffer, in these same, and, in even greater ways..

I find that those, who have, and who continue to reach out, to grapple

for my hands in these dark, terrible and desperate moments , offering me

their own strength, courage, and deep, healing compassion, *even* while

they suffer within the depths of their own pain, struggle and loss, is

proof enough, for me, of the Divine.

Our FOO home realities were based in madness and chaos. Their constructs

of right and wrong, good and evil, male and female, and certainly religion,

were skewed to serve their Illness and disorder, and used as weapons and

tools to manipulate and control, *NOT* to strengthen, empower, or to

enlighten. I'm pretty darn sure I don't believe in, or trust *their *construct

of " God, " either.

Someone once said to me that Trust is not about putting untested faith

in someone ( or somebody elses dogma) to do the right thing, or to be the

" TRUTH " Trust is knowing *who* the other person is, (or what the dogma is

in service to) recognizing the dedications of their character, and knowing

that they will *always *act in ways that support, feed, and service these

characterological dedications.

People ( and organizations) *always *act in service to their

dedications.

Now, whenever I am in a new situation, or meet someone, or am invited to

participate in an organization of any kind, I automatically assess their

" dedication. " Are they invasive, manipulative, do the respect boundaries,

are they too-chummy-too soon, are they a " friendly " bully, an outright

manipulator, needy, helpless, in crisis, witholding, rejecting, and why?

Or, conversely, Some are genuinely warm and friendly, encouraging and

ready to share their lives with others. I listen closely for " ends justify

the means " statements, guilt producing techniques, and polarizing or

triangulation behaviors and dialogue.

As for forgiveness, the first person I need to forgive, is myself, for

behaving in ways, within my FOO, that betrayed my own integrity.

Our FOOs created roles and prescribed behaviors that sometimes forced

us, in the service of our own emotional, and sometimes, literally, physical

survival, to collude against ourselves. Ie. to accept responsibility for

acts we did not commit, thoughts we did not think, to smile and kiss them

after we had been harmed or punished, to agree with them in order not to

cause trouble, etc.

Even though we participated in such atrocities against our " SELF, " in

order to survive, we still may be deeply angry with our " self " for not

standing up and telling our own truth. My own sense of self betrayal is

devastating. It will not happen again.

I will not let my FOO take one more moment, not one tiny half ounce of my

" self, " my personal integrity, my worth as a human being, my creativity or

my right to joy and friendship, and love.

I will not be infantalized, trivialized, lied to, lied about, made

afraid, lulled into a false sense of security, teased and tormented with

inheritance, or bough with hopes and promises of parental love, acceptance

and affection.

I will not let my FOO, obfuscate the Divine, by dressing it up in gender,

crowning it with vindictiveness, arming it with seduction and tears, and

seating it on a throne built on sadomasochism. OR, conversely, to destroy *

my* connections to the Divine by claiming it doesn't exist.

I think the Divine is bigger than that.

But, that's just me.

Echo, don't allow crazy people to take anything away from you, unless *you

*are sure *you want *to give it up. Conversely, You don't have to accept

something just because crazy people tell you its a gift.

Years ago, I had a dream, wherein I received an expensive, fancy -

schmancy doll in a frilly box for my birthday. Everyone at the party ooohd

and aaahd over it, in syrupy tones, " Oooh, what a beautiful dolll! What a

lucky little girl you are... " and so on ad nauseum. But, I didn't like the

doll, it looked dead to me, I didn't want the doll, it was scarry and

creepy, and just didn't seem right.

I must not have looked quite appreciative enough, or gratefully

enraptured, because I could feel familiar fingernails digging into the

backs of my arms, and an ugly voice whisper, over, and over, " you selfish

little bitch, you selfish little shit. . . " So. . . . I smiled my biggest,

shiniest, good girl smile, and everyone clapped and cheered.

But, I felt horrible, and sick and empty. I hated that Dead Thing in my

arms, but I had to carry it around, from table to table, and show it off,

and smile!

As I passed from table to table, something terrible began to happen.

The doll began to crumble in my arms, first, from the back, and under

her fancy dress, and as the dust ran from under her skirts, and her arms

crumbled, the smiles on peoples faces became frozen and hard, and they

wanted to get away from me, and I was so scared and confused,

I didn't make it happen, I wasn't destroying the horrible thing, it was

just crumbling away, and I was sickened and terrified by the sight!

Her body was turning to dust, to sand, it was all crumbling in my hands,

blowing away, and I couldn't make it stop, and I didn't know what to do,

and I could still hear that awful voice, you ungrateful little bitch, you

selfish little shit. . . I had nowhere to turn, I tried to smile bigger,

and act " pretty, " but the doll just fell apart faster.

As she crumbled, and fell from my hands, I felt something move, just a

little, And my horror blossomed, huge and ugly, as I could discern a

slight, and tentative flutter within the ruins of the cheap lacey dress. I

felt a profound fear, confusion, and grief, as something struggled out of

the bodice, and into my palm, where it huddled, all kind of folded up,

dusty, breathless and panting,

Then, it lept from my hand, and soared, a simple brown bird, singing,

beautiful, joyful into the sky.

I was nine when I had this dream, it has stayed with me all my life,

I've never shared it before, but I offer it to you, as a token of " self, "

of joy, of trust in your own instincts. We're grown up now, we can learn to

forgive our sins and transgressions against our self as well against as

others, trust ourselves, our own instincts, and, in doing so, trust those

around us to be who they are, and not fall prey to fancy wrapping, scary

voices, or social pressure.

Sorry this is such a long response. Your post touched me deeply, and

inspired a lot of thought.

(((((((((Trust Yourself,)))))))))))))) Sunspot

> **

>

>

> Thank you, ALL of you, for your posts. Yes, I feel abandoned (once again)

> by my father. And over the one thing I thought would never change--his

> atheism. I can tell from your posts that this is difficult subject for most

> of us KOs. I recognize how much courage it took to answer me--THANK YOU. It

> helps to know I am not alone.

>

> It sounds like most everyone here struggles as I do with regard to 1)

> religion being used abusively in the home and 2) the whole concept of where

> a supreme being fits into our FOO homes of madness and constant abuse. I

> know for myself, my FOO issues keep me from trusting male patriarchal

> figures in general (or matriarchal either, for that matter).

>

> They really wrecked that one for us too, didn't they?

>

> Thank you all with love & (((hugs)))

> Echo

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Is anyone else here struggling with this part? I am agnostic but

> deeply spiritual. I am carrying things on my conscience that I need

> forgiveness for--no doubt I feel this way because I got just enough

> religious education to feel guilt. I could go to the church and ask if

> forgiveness is possible, but that seems so hypocritical, since I do not

> plan to be a member nor do I believe in the church teachings.

> > >

> > > I brought these sins up in therapy years ago and have done process

> work to forgive myself. If facing the same issues now, I believe I would

> proceed the same way--I had limited choices because of my screwed up

> family. But in the past year or so (and certainly with my father getting

> religion) I have started feeling like a lost, broken puppy again. I feel

> shame, anger and sadness.

> > >

> > > Is it possible I need to forgive nada/fada for setting up the

> circumstances that left me no choices but to do things I found

> reprehensible? That is where most of my anger is directed. G-D they were

> lame parents, they told the world how wonderful they were at every turn and

> dropped the ball every time I needed them.

> > >

> >

>

>

>