Re: So is there any recovery or progress to made by BPs?

[Guest guest]

Yes - one woman I met in the hospital, in the eating disorder unit, whom

I've kept in touch with through the years, was a flaming borderline.

However, she also was incredibly self-aware, and was basically very kind and

well-meaning, and she wanted more than anything to get better. She worked

and worked and worked in therapy for years and years and years. And she got

better! Not only did her severe eating disorder behavior go away (she still

has the eating-disorder thoughts but doesn't act on them) but so did her

borderline behavior. She completely stopped the histrionics and the

self-mutilating and going hot and cold on people. It's really amazing, and

is the only case I know of a borderline really getting better.

As a matter of fact, a few years after we were in the hospital together, she

called me to apologize for having turned on me. (We were the closest of

friends for about a year, and then suddenly, right out of the blue, she got

really angry at me - I had done nothing to provoke this - and started saying

things to me that hurt me deeply, and started accusing me of all sorts of

awful, untrue things, and broke off the friendship. I was devastated,

especially because at the time I didn't know that she was borderline, or

actually what BPD was.) In the phone call she explained that she had BPD,

and told me how hard she'd been working to get better, and how awful she

felt about the way she'd treated people she really cared about.

I'm sure it helped that she had a loving, supportive, understanding family

who participated wholeheartedly in her therapy.

> **

>

>

> Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

> better?(to put it rather simply)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I personally know 2 who got " better. " They admit they have BPD and have been in

therapy for years. They are success stories.

And they still have no impulse control, black out (they can just call it what it

is) in psychotic episodes and are addicts. Both have serious addiction issues.

Even those who work at it . . . it's not a pretty picture.

I also remember Randi Kreger said it takes 3 years of intense therapy for a BPD

to show any change in behavior at all.

Wow.

Blessings,

Karla

>

> Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting better?(to

put it rather simply)

>

[Guest guest]

I read somewhere that an alcoholic would have to become sober and stay sober for

a good while before bpd could even be diagnosed properly, because the behaviors

are so similar.

And I think the definition of " intense " therapy is three sessions a week. For

years. Seems I recall reading somewhere that treating personality disorder is

basically like re-parenting the pd patient. Starting from scratch, from the

infant stage: developing a trusting, loving parent-child relationship with the

patient, teaching them where they end and someone else begins. Teaching them to

be gentle and not " bite " other people because other people have feelings too.

Teaching them to share. Teaching them that there are consequences for bad

behavior and rewards for good behavior.

And it won't work unless the person with bpd can admit that they even have a

problem in the first place, unless they really want to change their behaviors,

and unless they are highly motivated to stay in the intensive therapy even when

it becomes difficult and unpleasant and horribly expensive.

Its an uphill battle, on many fronts.

Those with bpd seemingly can get a good deal of normal behaviors back under

those conditions, but the success stories seem to be rare.

-Annie

PS: A caveat: if the patient also has narcissistic pd or antisocial pd, then

according to Dr. Hare, therapy just teaches them better, more targeted,

more effective ways to manipulate and control other people. Dr. Hare developed

the Hare Psychopathy Checklist, a diagnostic tool for determining psychopathy in

forensic populations. He said that psychotherapy just makes psychopaths better,

more successful predators.

> >

> > Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting better?(to

put it rather simply)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

As other postss have noted, there are anectdotal stories of some

recovery. However, in my experience it is the rare exception. The

reasons are pretty apparent. It takes, as noted, about 3 years of "

intense " therapy for real healing. BPD s are as extreme in their denial

of any problem on thier part as any addict. They are very, very

resistant to therapy. These 2 facts taken together make it long odds

against any " orders of magnitude " change, as opposed to incremental

changes.

I have several friends who are therapists, in addition to my own T.

Without exception, they either restrict the total number of BP s they

treat to no more that 2 or 3 at a time, or will not treat BP s at all.

One has said a single BP pt takes more effort and time than any 10 other

pts. My own nada s T, after trying to treat her for a few years,

finally left the profession to take a teaching position!

Doug

>

> Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

better?(to put it rather simply)

>

[Guest guest]

wow...that is chilling about therapy making bpd's better at making use of

people. That is really creepy. I guess so because they are going to the source

of what is considered 'sanity' in this society, and getting tutored in behaving

normally, much in the same way that someone gets tutored in english as a second

language. wow.

I find it really interesting that bpd is hard to distinguish from addition. I

know personally there are many people in AA who are children of other disorders

besides alcoholism and don't have any idea what to call it. It used to bug me

the way the ACOA's would lord it over people like 'i had *real* problems, my

parents were alcoholics'...I had all that dysfunction as well, but couldn't

point the finger at alcohol, as a lot of people did also.

Neither one of my personality disordered parents has ever gotten any better. I

think part of the reason for that is they have always had each other to keep

each other stuck.

> > >

> > > Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

better?(to put it rather simply)

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" My own nada s T, after trying to treat her for a few years,

finally left the profession to take a teaching position! "

Doug, that's hilarious, and very telling.

> >

> > Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

> better?(to put it rather simply)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm definitely experincing the scenario where therapy has made my mother much

worse. She lies to her therapist and has her convinced that she is the victim.

Right now, while she is banishing me from her life on the heals of my npd

father's suicide, it's with the righteous clarity that her therapist is teaching

her not to be a victim any more. That the reason she hasn't any healthy

relationships in her life is because everyone else is evil and she has to rid

her lilfe of the abusers!!! It actually made me laugh this time...only it's just

so obvious and depressing at the same time. It really had me wondering if she

could ever recover from how much worse she has become these past few years. She

doesn't have the resources for the intensive therapy some of you described nor

do I think she'd be willing to invest that much in her recovery. I suppose I cut

my losses and try to heal these wounds. I just can't get over the shock of

losing the woman who was once

at least capable of love, even if it was bizarre twisted crazy love, now it's

all hatred and anger. Sometimes I get angry with these threapist who are under

trained, but I know it's really my mother's choice to lie and manipulate even

the people there to help her...Ugh! Anyway....thank you for the responses

 

~B

[Guest guest]

re the caveat: YIKES

I think this is why I hear about so many KO's that say their BPD parent was a

therapist or other mental health professional.

If having a BPD mother and alcoholic father wasn't enough, I'm fairly certain my

first serious boyfriend was NPD and a bit of a sociopath. He went on to get a

degree in psychology. I would talk to him every now and then and I agree that

his education just made him better at manipulating and a better predator.

Fortunately I see thru his BS and finally called him on a few things and now he

doesn't try to contact me at all LOL!

> > >

> > > Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

better?(to put it rather simply)

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

good grief, bless your heart. I have a feeling this is what would happen with my

nada too. she's had one meeting with a counselor and told her about her allowing

us to be victimized by her father then came back and told us that the counselor

said 'she was a victim too'..she just doesn't freaking get it and never will. I

know she was a victim, but I can't validate her, I need her to validate me. it's

so messed up. argghhhh...

>

> I'm definitely experincing the scenario where therapy has made my mother much

worse. She lies to her therapist and has her convinced that she is the victim.

Right now, while she is banishing me from her life on the heals of my npd

father's suicide, it's with the righteous clarity that her therapist is teaching

her not to be a victim any more. That the reason she hasn't any healthy

relationships in her life is because everyone else is evil and she has to rid

her lilfe of the abusers!!! It actually made me laugh this time...only it's just

so obvious and depressing at the same time. It really had me wondering if she

could ever recover from how much worse she has become these past few years. She

doesn't have the resources for the intensive therapy some of you described nor

do I think she'd be willing to invest that much in her recovery. I suppose I cut

my losses and try to heal these wounds. I just can't get over the shock of

losing the woman who was once

> at least capable of love, even if it was bizarre twisted crazy love, now it's

all hatred and anger. Sometimes I get angry with these threapist who are under

trained, but I know it's really my mother's choice to lie and manipulate even

the people there to help her...Ugh! Anyway....thank you for the responses

>

> ~B

>

>

[Guest guest]

* Both* of my parents were professionals in the mental health field, as

are two of my siblings. My father once told me he would divorce my Nada if

he could, but that she would destroy him professionally and privately. I

know he knew she is BPD, I am also sure he knew she was also NPD, so why the

hell did he believe her lies and propaganda about myself and others? They

had both been in intensive therapy for years.

I understand that we can become habituated to the circumstances or

common demands of our environment, but you'd think he would have caught on.

If challenged on her bad behavior, her response was a defiant " Well I'm a

borderline.... " as if this was some kind of get- out- of- jail free card.

She is one scaaaaaary critter, Beautiful, elegant, well dressed,

intelligent, amazing memory, captivating story teller,* and* a mental

health professional. Wherever we go people fall all over themselves to do

her favors.

She presents the image of wise and suffering grace - in - motion.

*She*has suffered the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune herself,

and

*survived*!* She* knows *your* grief and pain, *she* understands

*your*innermost secret desires and hopes.

*She* will tell the whole and unvarnished truth,* even about he*r *own

family,* (even if she has to lie to do it, or maybe especially if she *gets

*to lie to do it!)

However, if she perceives an " attitudinal " tone of voice, if she is

attended to too slowly, if the hotel room isn't *quite *to her liking, she*may

* extract revenge. She *may* get someone fired, get hurt and threaten a

lawsuit ( but almost always settles out of court for an unspecified amnt.,)

and most frighteningly, manages to get other people to extract revenge for

her, often by spread unflattering gossip, or by getting them so riled up

that they act out on her behalf.

*She* never causes a public scene herself, public scenes are inelegant.

She manages to get someone else to do that for her. I am amazed at how many

people are* willing* to do it for her. She manages to collect people for

this purpose. On some rare occasions, if it is more expedient, or it suites

her fancy, she may faint in the lobby, or in line, or in the managers

office.

She is perverse, remorseless, relentless, and never makes a false step,

unless appearing to do so can be done prettily, suck some poor sap in, and

can promote her agenda.

She perceives misfortunes experienced by others as " failed stunts, " and they

should have planned better.

When she gives a gift, the gift is selected to impress her friends, and

/or to further some propaganda about the receiver.

She is at best, wicked, manipulative and remorseless. She is, at worst,

sadistic, revenge motivated and possibly criminally evil. She is my mother,

and I love her and I don't know why. I don't want to. Maybe my Dad felt the

same way.

Therapy just gave her new tools and opportunities to ply her craft of

manipulation, cruelty and vengefulness.

Many, many thanks to Annie, who sent me to a link for NPD, which I now

understand my Nada is.

After I stopped screaming, drooling, and pounding my head,and settled

down to rocking, crying and sucking my thumb, I came to the clear

understanding that no matter how much it hurts, no matter how much the

little girl inside me cries for her, and wants to go home, that it is not

emotionally or physically safe for me to do so. My well-being was never

really her concern. It hurts. I want my mom. I wish my mom really wanted me.

I guess under the circumstances, I'm lucky she didn't

Sunspot

> **

>

>

> re the caveat: YIKES

>

> I think this is why I hear about so many KO's that say their BPD parent was

> a therapist or other mental health professional.

>

> If having a BPD mother and alcoholic father wasn't enough, I'm fairly

> certain my first serious boyfriend was NPD and a bit of a sociopath. He went

> on to get a degree in psychology. I would talk to him every now and then and

> I agree that his education just made him better at manipulating and a better

> predator. Fortunately I see thru his BS and finally called him on a few

> things and now he doesn't try to contact me at all LOL!

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone know of or have any experience with a BP ever getting

> better?(to put it rather simply)

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

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