Re: Brother moving back - need advice

[Guest guest]

Oh Fi!!! I would be scared too. Why did your husband offer him the

apartment? is it in your mother - in -law's house?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Fiona wrote:

> **

>

>

> For the past 5 years, my brother has been living about 2 hours away from

> the town nada and I live in.

>

> He moved there when my father was terminally ill. When we needed him to be

> closer, he moved further. It was an unspoken declaration, that he wanted to

> avoid the pain and all the duties involved in it. I begged him not to move,

> but he did it anyway.

>

> Now, he is moving back to town...as in 2 blocks away from me and 3 blocks

> away from nada.

>

> He has been looking for a new apt for ages and my husband offered him my

> deceased mother in law's basement apt. Even as he offered it, I felt that

> tug inside, that tug of protection, of shielding myself, and of fear of how

> this would turn out.

>

> Anyway, now he's moving in this Saturday.

>

> Here's the drama that's already taken place. My husband told him he could

> have the apt this Saturday and that my husband's uncle, who had been

> staying there, is just about done clearing out.

>

> But my brother has been calling my husband at home and on his cell about

> when he'll get the keys. It's a perfectly reasonable question, but if you

> were calling your new landlord about it, you would have to WAIT for them to

> get back to you.

>

> Except my brother has involved my mother. I know this b/c she told me.

>

> Why????? Why did he call her and tell her " Fiona's husband hasn't given

> me the keys; I'm really worried. " Why can't he just be a grown up and

> confide in someone else who can handle that kind of information? Doesn't

> he have any dignity to keep him from calling his mommy???

>

> My mother sounded anguished....about THIS! " I've been praying through the

> night for you to call me so that I know everything will be all right. I

> haven't been able to eat. Your brother is very, very worried. " Of course

> this is my mother's account. She even went so far as to imply my husband

> would take back his offer at the last minute, which was a really mean thing

> to say.

>

> This is what I'm not looking forward to, the intensified triangulation

> between my mother and brother. I *almost* explained to her what a rough

> week my husband had, but I don't owe them any explanations. I *almost*

> emailed my brother to tell him off, but I decided it just wasn't even worth

> it. It's all about the keys for him.

>

> The bottom line, I'm discovering as I write this, is that I'm afraid. I'm

> afraid of how equally smothered I feel by my brother as I do by nada. It's

> harder with him, b/c he's much funnier and cooler than nada, so it's harder

> for me to say no without extreme guilt. It's easier to dislike nada. I am

> so afraid my brother will be my Cosmo Kramer, dropping by when he wants; or

> assuming he can take my older daughter to the city whenever she wants.

> (that's the other thing: my kids love him, so if he comes over, it's

> harder to kick him out)

>

> Last week, he invited me to an exercise class in the city. It sounded like

> fun but he turned the idea of a 2-hour class into " and THEN we can get

> dinner...and THEN we can get drinks....and THEN... " He wanted me to block

> out 9 hours of my day for him. Right away, without waiting for my reply

> (which is what my father would do), he said, " I'll book our spots in class

> as soon as I hang up " ...he gets really frantic and agitated and has to know

> NOW (like with the keys) if I can make it. I said, " Brother, I'm going to

> need to check with my husband first, that he can stay with younger daughter

> for all that time. " He audibly sounded disappointed, like the child who's

> told he can't go to the circus after all.

>

> He's single and with no responsibilities. He says he's lonely and wants to

> be closer, but what the eff does that mean???? I'm terrified of what that

> means.

>

> When we're together, it's fun; he's both child-like and childish. But

> after a couple of hours, I have to get away from him. He's overwhelming and

> suffocating, constantly doing hand puppets with his fingers in public,

> pretending he's an ape, and worst of all, acting out scenes from " The

> Godfather " and " Monty Python " that he's done countless times and expecting

> me to be delighted every time. He can be very, very tiresome.

>

> And then, suddenly, out of absolutely NOWHERE, he becomes distant,

> detached, and aloof and retreats to a room and won't see anyone.

>

> Sigh. I feel like he's stuck at some developmental stage and beeelieve

> me, between my 2 kids and nada, I don't need another child in my life.

>

> My question is: how can I be close to him without being TOO close, without

> compromising my boundaries and need for separateness? How do I make that

> clear?

>

> Thank you for reading all this and helping me untangle it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

What is your DH's relationship with your brother? Did he ask what you thought

before he offered the apt to your bro?

I can understand why you are feeling anxious. Your safe space is being invaded

by yet another person who is demanding your immediate attention. He does sound

worse than a child. And--you know this, but it helps to hear--your mother's

reaction is completely out-of-proportion to the " problem. " It was probably a

good idea not to respond to either of them, at least not while your emotions

were still intense.

If your brother is lonely, he can join a group or take a class or volunteer or

get a job where he can make friends. You can't be his girlfriend and his mother

and his buddy. You aren't responsible for giving him a social life.

You ask how you can be close with your brother without being " too " close, how

you can make your boundaries clear. It sounds like you don't want him coming

over unannounced, and that you are not interested in doing things with him (or

letting your children do things with him) that haven't been planned or permitted

in advance. You can state those boundaries directly: " I need you to call and

make sure it's a good time before you decide to come over. " " I want DD to get to

do things with you, but we need time to plan, and she is busy so we won't be

able to say yes every time. If you think of something you'd like to do with her,

please check with us at least [x days] beforehand. " If you don't want to spend 9

hours with him, say you can't. " That all sounds like fun, but I don't think I

can do it all at once. I'm free between 7 and 9. Let's do the rest another

time. " etc. You did a good job telling him you needed to check with your DH

first. FWIW, I *always* tell people I need to check my calendar and/or talk with

my DH before I commit to anything. And if anybody pressures me for an answer

RIGHT THEN or otherwise pouts, I say NO. Period.

You have a right to say no. You have a right not to answer the door or let him

in if he shows up without asking first. You don't have to commit your whole day

to entertaining him. Your time is yours. Your home is yours. It does not make

you a bad person or a bad sister that you have needs of your own. I say the best

way to make your separateness clear is to exercise your right to say no, to ask

him to leave, to expect him to communicate with you before showing up.

[Guest guest]

\PS, I also wanted to comment on what you said about it being harder to kick

your bro out, because your kids love him.

Think about what you want to teach your kids. You are their example. Do you want

them to learn that they have to let people come into their house even if they

don't want to? That they can't ask people to leave even when they're

uncomfortable? Or, would it be better to show them that we can manage our time

and plan to spend time with people we like, and that we can ask them to leave if

we need our own space for a while or are ready to do something else?

It's great that they love spending time with their uncle. I think it's wonderful

that you want them all to enjoy that relationship. It's ok to ask for some

parameters, though. And it's ok to explain to your kids that you want them to

spend time together, and that uncle understands you need that time to be planned

in advance. So if he shows up without calling, you might ask him to come back

another time instead.

[Guest guest]

My husband was just being nice. And hopefully, it won't be as awful as I'm

imagining.

Hope, hope, hope!

Right, it's my mil's home, where her brother, stepson, and nephew live now. The

basement is free, so that's where my brother will be.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > For the past 5 years, my brother has been living about 2 hours away from

> > the town nada and I live in.

> >

> > He moved there when my father was terminally ill. When we needed him to be

> > closer, he moved further. It was an unspoken declaration, that he wanted to

> > avoid the pain and all the duties involved in it. I begged him not to move,

> > but he did it anyway.

> >

> > Now, he is moving back to town...as in 2 blocks away from me and 3 blocks

> > away from nada.

> >

> > He has been looking for a new apt for ages and my husband offered him my

> > deceased mother in law's basement apt. Even as he offered it, I felt that

> > tug inside, that tug of protection, of shielding myself, and of fear of how

> > this would turn out.

> >

> > Anyway, now he's moving in this Saturday.

> >

> > Here's the drama that's already taken place. My husband told him he could

> > have the apt this Saturday and that my husband's uncle, who had been

> > staying there, is just about done clearing out.

> >

> > But my brother has been calling my husband at home and on his cell about

> > when he'll get the keys. It's a perfectly reasonable question, but if you

> > were calling your new landlord about it, you would have to WAIT for them to

> > get back to you.

> >

> > Except my brother has involved my mother. I know this b/c she told me.

> >

> > Why????? Why did he call her and tell her " Fiona's husband hasn't given

> > me the keys; I'm really worried. " Why can't he just be a grown up and

> > confide in someone else who can handle that kind of information? Doesn't

> > he have any dignity to keep him from calling his mommy???

> >

> > My mother sounded anguished....about THIS! " I've been praying through the

> > night for you to call me so that I know everything will be all right. I

> > haven't been able to eat. Your brother is very, very worried. " Of course

> > this is my mother's account. She even went so far as to imply my husband

> > would take back his offer at the last minute, which was a really mean thing

> > to say.

> >

> > This is what I'm not looking forward to, the intensified triangulation

> > between my mother and brother. I *almost* explained to her what a rough

> > week my husband had, but I don't owe them any explanations. I *almost*

> > emailed my brother to tell him off, but I decided it just wasn't even worth

> > it. It's all about the keys for him.

> >

> > The bottom line, I'm discovering as I write this, is that I'm afraid. I'm

> > afraid of how equally smothered I feel by my brother as I do by nada. It's

> > harder with him, b/c he's much funnier and cooler than nada, so it's harder

> > for me to say no without extreme guilt. It's easier to dislike nada. I am

> > so afraid my brother will be my Cosmo Kramer, dropping by when he wants; or

> > assuming he can take my older daughter to the city whenever she wants.

> > (that's the other thing: my kids love him, so if he comes over, it's

> > harder to kick him out)

> >

> > Last week, he invited me to an exercise class in the city. It sounded like

> > fun but he turned the idea of a 2-hour class into " and THEN we can get

> > dinner...and THEN we can get drinks....and THEN... " He wanted me to block

> > out 9 hours of my day for him. Right away, without waiting for my reply

> > (which is what my father would do), he said, " I'll book our spots in class

> > as soon as I hang up " ...he gets really frantic and agitated and has to know

> > NOW (like with the keys) if I can make it. I said, " Brother, I'm going to

> > need to check with my husband first, that he can stay with younger daughter

> > for all that time. " He audibly sounded disappointed, like the child who's

> > told he can't go to the circus after all.

> >

> > He's single and with no responsibilities. He says he's lonely and wants to

> > be closer, but what the eff does that mean???? I'm terrified of what that

> > means.

> >

> > When we're together, it's fun; he's both child-like and childish. But

> > after a couple of hours, I have to get away from him. He's overwhelming and

> > suffocating, constantly doing hand puppets with his fingers in public,

> > pretending he's an ape, and worst of all, acting out scenes from " The

> > Godfather " and " Monty Python " that he's done countless times and expecting

> > me to be delighted every time. He can be very, very tiresome.

> >

> > And then, suddenly, out of absolutely NOWHERE, he becomes distant,

> > detached, and aloof and retreats to a room and won't see anyone.

> >

> > Sigh. I feel like he's stuck at some developmental stage and beeelieve

> > me, between my 2 kids and nada, I don't need another child in my life.

> >

> > My question is: how can I be close to him without being TOO close, without

> > compromising my boundaries and need for separateness? How do I make that

> > clear?

> >

> > Thank you for reading all this and helping me untangle it.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

He doesn't sound like the 'coffee and a frank discussion type' of guy

unfortunately. But clearly, you need to set some ground rules for interaction

between you, your immediate family, nada and him.

Is he on the same page with you about nada? Does he get it at all? If you do not

lay out boundaries now, before he moves in, you will play hell later trying to

reign it all in.

I'm a big fan of written contracts, because then later people can't say they

didn't know the rules or the consequences. However, requiring something like

this from close relatives is very difficult for our kind. Maybe your DH can do

this with your brother?

I hope you find a way to protect yourself, Fiona. If I were in your shoes, I'd

already be having panic attacks and hourly trips to the commode :-\

Good luck, hun!

>

> For the past 5 years, my brother has been living about 2 hours away from the

town nada and I live in.

>

> He moved there when my father was terminally ill. When we needed him to be

closer, he moved further. It was an unspoken declaration, that he wanted to

avoid the pain and all the duties involved in it. I begged him not to move, but

he did it anyway.

>

> Now, he is moving back to town...as in 2 blocks away from me and 3 blocks away

from nada.

>

> He has been looking for a new apt for ages and my husband offered him my

deceased mother in law's basement apt. Even as he offered it, I felt that tug

inside, that tug of protection, of shielding myself, and of fear of how this

would turn out.

>

> Anyway, now he's moving in this Saturday.

>

> Here's the drama that's already taken place. My husband told him he could

have the apt this Saturday and that my husband's uncle, who had been staying

there, is just about done clearing out.

>

> But my brother has been calling my husband at home and on his cell about when

he'll get the keys. It's a perfectly reasonable question, but if you were

calling your new landlord about it, you would have to WAIT for them to get back

to you.

>

> Except my brother has involved my mother. I know this b/c she told me.

>

> Why?????   Why did he call her and tell her " Fiona's husband hasn't given me

the keys; I'm really worried. " Why can't he just be a grown up and confide in

someone else who can handle that kind of information? Doesn't he have any

dignity to keep him from calling his mommy???

>

> My mother sounded anguished....about THIS! " I've been praying through the

night for you to call me so that I know everything will be all right. I haven't

been able to eat. Your brother is very, very worried. " Of course this is my

mother's account. She even went so far as to imply my husband would take back

his offer at the last minute, which was a really mean thing to say.

>

> This is what I'm not looking forward to, the intensified triangulation between

my mother and brother. I *almost* explained to her what a rough week my husband

had, but I don't owe them any explanations. I *almost* emailed my brother to

tell him off, but I decided it just wasn't even worth it. It's all about the

keys for him.

>

> The bottom line, I'm discovering as I write this, is that I'm afraid. I'm

afraid of how equally smothered I feel by my brother as I do by nada. It's

harder with him, b/c he's much funnier and cooler than nada, so it's harder for

me to say no without extreme guilt. It's easier to dislike nada. I am so afraid

my brother will be my Cosmo Kramer, dropping by when he wants; or assuming he

can take my older daughter to the city whenever she wants. (that's the other

thing: my kids love him, so if he comes over, it's harder to kick him out)

>

> Last week, he invited me to an exercise class in the city. It sounded like fun

but he turned the idea of a 2-hour class into " and THEN we can get dinner...and

THEN we can get drinks....and THEN... " He wanted me to block out 9 hours of my

day for him. Right away, without waiting for my reply (which is what my father

would do), he said, " I'll book our spots in class as soon as I hang up " ...he

gets really frantic and agitated and has to know NOW (like with the keys) if I

can make it. I said, " Brother, I'm going to need to check with my husband

first, that he can stay with younger daughter for all that time. " He audibly

sounded disappointed, like the child who's told he can't go to the circus after

all.

>

> He's single and with no responsibilities. He says he's lonely and wants to be

closer, but what the eff does that mean???? I'm terrified of what that means.

>

> When we're together, it's fun; he's both child-like and childish. But after a

couple of hours, I have to get away from him. He's overwhelming and suffocating,

constantly doing hand puppets with his fingers in public, pretending he's an

ape, and worst of all, acting out scenes from " The Godfather " and " Monty Python "

that he's done countless times and expecting me to be delighted every time. He

can be very, very tiresome.

>

>

> And then, suddenly, out of absolutely NOWHERE, he becomes distant, detached,

and aloof and retreats to a room and won't see anyone.

>

> Sigh. I feel like he's stuck at some developmental stage and beeelieve me,

between my 2 kids and nada, I don't need another child in my life.

>

> My question is: how can I be close to him without being TOO close, without

compromising my boundaries and need for separateness? How do I make that clear?

>

>

> Thank you for reading all this and helping me untangle it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Svaktshka, that's a very, very good point you make re; my kids and

teaching them about boundaries by my actions.

My husband did ask me first before he offered the apt to my brother. I went

along with it b/c I love my brother and b/c he's been looking for 6 months for

an apt. I really thought about it and felt it would be selfish of me not to

offer it to him just b/c I don't want him so close. (Plus, I figured, he's

closer to nada, and can pitch in with her neediness.) So, my husband offered it

to him at an incredibly good rent.

My husband and brother aren't all that close. Just holidays/birthdays kind of

thing. They've had their differences. My husband is VERY good at setting

boundaries. He has no problem saying 'No, I can't' to anyone. The times he's

had to with my brother, my brother has done his passive-aggressive thing and

kind of froze my husband out of his life. Which, honestly, if it comes to that

for me with my bro, so be it. that's how it will have to be.

>

> \PS, I also wanted to comment on what you said about it being harder to kick

your bro out, because your kids love him.

>

> Think about what you want to teach your kids. You are their example. Do you

want them to learn that they have to let people come into their house even if

they don't want to? That they can't ask people to leave even when they're

uncomfortable? Or, would it be better to show them that we can manage our time

and plan to spend time with people we like, and that we can ask them to leave if

we need our own space for a while or are ready to do something else?

>

> It's great that they love spending time with their uncle. I think it's

wonderful that you want them all to enjoy that relationship. It's ok to ask for

some parameters, though. And it's ok to explain to your kids that you want them

to spend time together, and that uncle understands you need that time to be

planned in advance. So if he shows up without calling, you might ask him to come

back another time instead.

>

[Guest guest]

I really thought about it and felt it would be selfish of me not to offer it to

him just b/c I don't want him so close.

Forgive me, but I just did a *facepalm* here. Sigh.

Oh, well, that part is over and done. But in the future, please know that it's

not selfish to think about your own needs. Look at how much this is stressing

you out, and remember that the next time you're tempted to think it's selfish to

say no.

I think a lot of us KOs tend to try to " help " and " fix. " My T finally told me

she did not want me to ever offer to help anyone else ever again. She said if

they ask me, I can decide one way or another, but I am not to offer otherwise.

It has actually been tremendously helpful to have that new rule.

Sveta

[Guest guest]

For Echobabe:

My brother's not at all on the same page with me about nada--at all. If he knew

I called her 'nada', he would die. He's enmeshed with her BUT shows occasional

glimpses of the rage he feels against her. But he suppresses it and reminds me

of how old and weak and frail she is. It's scary to think of when he ever

finally lets all those feelings out. He totally does NOT get it. Once upon a

time, long ago, he was the one dying to get away from her. Now he's the

opposite.

I think you're right, Echo. My DH is going to have to do some of his

boundary-setting. But the more I think about it, the more I realize I'm just

going to have to be brutally brusque with my brother.

I would like us to be closer. I love my brother. I don't love being suffocated,

though. As I said, I'm going to have to tell it like it is. He'll clear out for

a while and will have to adjust to our boundaries.

For Svatshka:

Facepalm, lol!!!! " please know that it's not selfish to think about your own

needs " -- I know, that--in my head. My husband had brought this idea up earlier

in the year when he'd first heard about my brother's need for a place, but I

told him I'd rather wait and see if he finds something on his own. I really

didn't want to get involved. He doesn't earn a lot and I knew it would be very

difficult for him to find an affordable place in a good area. So here we are.

I do agree with you re: helping and fixing others and I think I've come a LONG

way. I pick and choose how/when/where I'll help someone. I definitely do not do

the level of fixing I used to do. I like your T's idea, mostly b/c it puts the

intent in someone else's hands. If you want help, ask for it. My mother " hints "

at needing a ride or needing groceries and gets mad if we don't get her hint.

Like I said to Echo, I'm just going to have to be brutally honest and brusque.

He's used to sweet sister who will do anything he asks if he puts the Puppy Dog

eyes on. I've changed a lot.

Thanks so much for your feedback, guys!!

Fiona

> >

> > For the past 5 years, my brother has been living about 2 hours away from the

town nada and I live in.

> >

> > He moved there when my father was terminally ill. When we needed him to be

closer, he moved further. It was an unspoken declaration, that he wanted to

avoid the pain and all the duties involved in it. I begged him not to move, but

he did it anyway.

> >

> > Now, he is moving back to town...as in 2 blocks away from me and 3 blocks

away from nada.

> >

> > He has been looking for a new apt for ages and my husband offered him my

deceased mother in law's basement apt. Even as he offered it, I felt that tug

inside, that tug of protection, of shielding myself, and of fear of how this

would turn out.

> >

> > Anyway, now he's moving in this Saturday.

> >

> > Here's the drama that's already taken place. My husband told him he could

have the apt this Saturday and that my husband's uncle, who had been staying

there, is just about done clearing out.

> >

> > But my brother has been calling my husband at home and on his cell about

when he'll get the keys. It's a perfectly reasonable question, but if you were

calling your new landlord about it, you would have to WAIT for them to get back

to you.

> >

> > Except my brother has involved my mother. I know this b/c she told me.

> >

> > Why?????   Why did he call her and tell her " Fiona's husband hasn't given me

the keys; I'm really worried. " Why can't he just be a grown up and confide in

someone else who can handle that kind of information? Doesn't he have any

dignity to keep him from calling his mommy???

> >

> > My mother sounded anguished....about THIS! " I've been praying through the

night for you to call me so that I know everything will be all right. I haven't

been able to eat. Your brother is very, very worried. " Of course this is my

mother's account. She even went so far as to imply my husband would take back

his offer at the last minute, which was a really mean thing to say.

> >

> > This is what I'm not looking forward to, the intensified triangulation

between my mother and brother. I *almost* explained to her what a rough week my

husband had, but I don't owe them any explanations. I *almost* emailed my

brother to tell him off, but I decided it just wasn't even worth it. It's all

about the keys for him.

> >

> > The bottom line, I'm discovering as I write this, is that I'm afraid. I'm

afraid of how equally smothered I feel by my brother as I do by nada. It's

harder with him, b/c he's much funnier and cooler than nada, so it's harder for

me to say no without extreme guilt. It's easier to dislike nada. I am so afraid

my brother will be my Cosmo Kramer, dropping by when he wants; or assuming he

can take my older daughter to the city whenever she wants. (that's the other

thing: my kids love him, so if he comes over, it's harder to kick him out)

> >

> > Last week, he invited me to an exercise class in the city. It sounded like

fun but he turned the idea of a 2-hour class into " and THEN we can get

dinner...and THEN we can get drinks....and THEN... " He wanted me to block out 9

hours of my day for him. Right away, without waiting for my reply (which is what

my father would do), he said, " I'll book our spots in class as soon as I hang

up " ...he gets really frantic and agitated and has to know NOW (like with the

keys) if I can make it. I said, " Brother, I'm going to need to check with my

husband first, that he can stay with younger daughter for all that time. " He

audibly sounded disappointed, like the child who's told he can't go to the

circus after all.

> >

> > He's single and with no responsibilities. He says he's lonely and wants to

be closer, but what the eff does that mean???? I'm terrified of what that

means.

> >

> > When we're together, it's fun; he's both child-like and childish. But after

a couple of hours, I have to get away from him. He's overwhelming and

suffocating, constantly doing hand puppets with his fingers in public,

pretending he's an ape, and worst of all, acting out scenes from " The Godfather "

and " Monty Python " that he's done countless times and expecting me to be

delighted every time. He can be very, very tiresome.

> >

> >

> > And then, suddenly, out of absolutely NOWHERE, he becomes distant, detached,

and aloof and retreats to a room and won't see anyone.

> >

> > Sigh. I feel like he's stuck at some developmental stage and beeelieve me,

between my 2 kids and nada, I don't need another child in my life.

> >

> > My question is: how can I be close to him without being TOO close, without

compromising my boundaries and need for separateness? How do I make that clear?

> >

> >

> > Thank you for reading all this and helping me untangle it.

> >

> >