Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

June 23, 2011

WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it, I've

always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent that

bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning, 'cutting',

sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high functioning,

predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this board. & I

wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my nada, who is

truly a predator. Food for thought.

June 23, 2011

I wonder if it would work for my fada--except for the fact fada doesn't see

anything wrong with himself.

As she said, it doesn't work for " dead " people--they have to want to change

for anything to work.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 9:23 AM, charlottehoneychurch <

charlottehoneychurch@...> wrote:

> **

>

> WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

>

> I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

> I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

> intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low

> functioning, 'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different

> than the high functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of

> the nadas on this board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for

> someone like my nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

>

June 23, 2011

Fascinating! The DBT therapy she developed never was promoted as being

universally successful with borderline pd, it was just promoted as being more

successful than the current therapies that were in use at the time.

Those with borderline pd who also have a large degree of narcissistic pd traits

or antisocial pd traits probably would not get much out of DBT therapy, or any

psychotherapy, really. That's just my opinion based on reading what Dr

Hare wrote about psychopathy. Dr. Hare is one of the leading authorities on

psychopathy; he developed the " gold standard " diagnostic tool for psychopathy RE

forensic populations.

Psychopathy seems (to me) to be the extreme end of the Cluster B spectrum.

These are individuals with no empathy, no conscience, and no remorse: human

predators who view other human beings as objects to be used. They see

themselves as superior beings, believing that laws and rules are for other,

lesser beings. And some of them are frighteningly intelligent, ambitious and

charismatic, and very, very good at manipulating others, and become the Hitlers

and Maos of the world, while others are the Ted Bundys/the serial killers, and

others are just the head of your HOA who enjoys the power trip over their fellow

condo owners and perhaps skimming some of the HOA money off the top, because

they can get away with it and feel like they deserve it.

Dr. Hare wrote that psychotherapy not only fails to " cure " the psychopath, it

makes them better psychopaths: better at understanding how normal people " tick "

so they can more effectively manipulate and use them.

-Annie

>

> WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

>

> I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent

that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

>

June 23, 2011

I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed this. I

took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but also for

people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and coping skills.

I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and listening to

waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I hate that I have

become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I loathe it to the core of

my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I have borderline fleas, I

hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been raised by a schizophrenic.

Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and get

over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel suicidal while

IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite honestly, it feels like it

was a waste of money.

I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it, I've

always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent that

bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning, 'cutting',

sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high functioning,

predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this board. & I

wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my nada, who is

truly a predator. Food for thought.

June 23, 2011

OMG I saw this subject earlier today and couldn't wait to read it . . . all

day I was thinking of Lohan the lame actress instead of the

psychologist. CRAP!!!!!

> **

>

> I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed this.

> I took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but also

> for people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and coping

> skills. I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and

> listening to waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I hate

> that I have become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I loathe

> it to the core of my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I have

> borderline fleas, I hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been raised

> by a schizophrenic.

>

> Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and

> get over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel

> suicidal while IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite honestly,

> it feels like it was a waste of money.

>

> I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

>

> Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

>

> WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

>

> I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

> I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

> intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low

> functioning, 'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different

> than the high functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of

> the nadas on this board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for

> someone like my nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

>

June 23, 2011

I literally LOL'd!

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> OMG I saw this subject earlier today and couldn't wait to read it . . . all

> day I was thinking of Lohan the lame actress instead of the

> psychologist. CRAP!!!!!

>

> > **

> >

> > I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed

> this.

> > I took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but

> also

> > for people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and

> coping

> > skills. I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and

> > listening to waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I

> hate

> > that I have become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I

> loathe

> > it to the core of my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I

> have

> > borderline fleas, I hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been

> raised

> > by a schizophrenic.

> >

> > Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and

> > get over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel

> > suicidal while IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite

> honestly,

> > it feels like it was a waste of money.

> >

> > I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

> >

> > Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

> >

> > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> >

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> >

> > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of

> it,

> > I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

> > intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low

> > functioning, 'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very

> different

> > than the high functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many

> of

> > the nadas on this board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work

> for

> > someone like my nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> >

June 23, 2011

I have never been exposed to it, but that reaction is probably how normal people

feel.

When I think about my mother being exposed to something like that, i think it

would drive her into a state where she would be forced to confront the past

because putting it on the present wouldn't be allowed. I like to think there is

something out there that would work for her.

I tried to enter AA again a month or so again, after having not done any except

online for years. I was confronted with alot of that 'quit whining' crap...I

think in some respects for someone early on who is just putting down substances

it works but for someone dealing with trauma issues and child neglect which is

where I am at, it does not work and the religiosity/faux spirituality that some

people use to re-repress trauma with can be detrimental I believe. I feel like I

am kind of 'hanging' now because I can't go into meetings with these issues and

get a sane response...

>

> I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed this. I

took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but also for

people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and coping skills.

I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and listening to

waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I hate that I have

become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I loathe it to the core of

my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I have borderline fleas, I

hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been raised by a schizophrenic.

>

> Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and get

over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel suicidal while

IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite honestly, it feels like it

was a waste of money.

>

> I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

>

> Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

>

> WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

>

> I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent

that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my nada,

who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

>

June 23, 2011

Llel, I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding out there about what

trauma survivors, especially survivors of BPD parents, really need. What we

need (as Judith Herman's book sets out so beautifully) is not to stop 'whining'

but to tell our story, over and over, enough times so that it becomes real to

us, and the traumatic memories are re-cast, and the cult-like conditioning to

'believe' nada's version of reality is purged out of us. I know that, after I

learned of BPD, when I was on my way out of contact, and I would have an

encounter with nada, I would need to tell it over and over to many friends, and

to the same friends, more than once, and to my journal, more than once, and to

my therapist too sometimes, before it was finally 'resolved' and my body

believed it was over. Re-enactment work (in my case, talking to pillows) helped

a little bit too. Just 'getting over it' or 'minimizing' it, is exactly the

opposite of what we need. What we need is to keep REPEATING it and dwelling on

it, until our hearts, minds and bodies have learned to take it seriously and

recast the trauma as a regular memory! So I think you are dead-on with that

observation.

> >

> > I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed this.

I took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but also for

people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and coping skills.

I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and listening to

waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I hate that I have

become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I loathe it to the core of

my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I have borderline fleas, I

hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been raised by a schizophrenic.

> >

> > Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and get

over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel suicidal while

IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite honestly, it feels like it

was a waste of money.

> >

> > I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

> >

> > Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

> >

> > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> >

> > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> >

> > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent

that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my nada,

who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> >

June 23, 2011

I thought the same thing when i read this, that borderlines on the more NPD end

of the spectrum aren't going to think the problem lies within them.

I have to ask, also, if some of the people who have been diagnosed this way

without the accompanying traits of consciencelessness and lack of ability to

empathize, are even borderline at all. Just because someone is whiny, depressed,

and suicidal, does not make them BPD. The two borderlinest borderlines that I

have met, my two crazy sister in laws, would never consider suicide since it is

the world and everything around them that is wrong, and not them.

I know of one woman on a message board i posted on a few years ago that was

diagnosed borderline. It bothered me alot, because she exhibited none of the

traits. She was kind, compassionate, empathetic, etc. She wasn't diabolical, and

there were some very diabolical members on that board, it was a very large

political community. She as a cutter, and she definitely was a depressive.

I am afraid that there may be many women out there who have been diagnosed in

this fashion who are not borderline at all, who are overwhelmed by past trauma,

most usually sexual abuse. Also, neurological disorders like autism and asperger

in women can lead to misdiagnoses of borderline and bipolar.

I have met only one borderline in my life who was actually diagnosed such. She

was from a wealthy family, though, and had a wealthy husband who apparently paid

for expensive psychiatry in order to appease her woes, you got the feeling of

her being psychoanalyzed, Freudian style, to the tune of hundreds of dollars an

hour. I really don't know if it was bpd that she was diagnosed with or npd, she

just joked once that she had been diagnosed with a " dangerous personality

disorder " , as if to say, 'isn't that the most ridiculous thing you ever heard'.

Um, no, it wasn't. She was quite conscienceless and after a while of knowing her

it was clear she was an excellent mimic of 'normal' behavior without really

being able to understand the emotional dynamics of it...if someone crossed her,

she would literally seek to destroy them. I eventually angered her, and she was

relentless in seeking out every friend I had and befriending them and trying to

'turn them against' me, trying to get them to abandon our friendship. I haven't

really ever experienced that kind of dedicated vindictiveness all out of

proportion to the actual circumstance that made her mad, and it was frightening.

> >

> > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> >

> > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> >

> > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of it,

I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive intent

that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> >

>

June 23, 2011

You are right: the shadings and permutations and co-morbidities of mental

disorders are so complex that only a trained, experienced psychiatrist can tease

out what exactly is going on with any given individual.

For example, there are nine separate diagnostic traits for borderline pd, but

only 5 of them must be present in order to formally diagnose bpd. Any of the 5

will do. That's why there is this huge gap that makes a low-functioning

waify/hermity borderline pd person seem like an entirely different disorder than

a high-functioning witchy/queeny type.

Plus, a person can be severely affected by their disorder (the

symptoms/traits/behaviors are frequent and intense) or just mildly affected.

Plus, if I understand correctly, those who display only 4 of the traits, such

as: person X is frequently suicidal, cuts herself to self-soothe, has transient

breaks with reality under stress, and displays black and white thinking...

person X would NOT be officially diagnosed with bpd. It doesn't make sense to

me, but, if I understand correctly that's how it works.

Plus, its possible to have more than one mental illness going on at the same

time; that's referred to as " co-morbidity. " Its not uncommon for a person to

have bpd plus an Axis I disorder such as a depressive disorder, an anxiety

disorder, or a psychotic disorder. And its possible to have more than one

personality disorder at the same time.

I guess that's why it takes so long to become a psychologist; its a doctorate

degree. And psychiatrists are full medical doctors AND have a doctorate in

psychology, an awesomely massive investment of time and training, and money.

My guess, based on purely amateur speculation, is that the rich woman you

described who said she had been diagnosed with a " dangerous personality

disorder " is probably a malignant narcissist and/or a psychopath: such

individuals have no capacity for empathy, no conscience, no remorse, and they

have a sense of entitlement to seek revenge, and enjoy it.

-Annie

> > >

> > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > >

> > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > >

> > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of

it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > >

> >

>

June 23, 2011

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this message board, and I'm still getting the feel for things around

here. I'm very moved by this story of Linehan's own issues with BPD. Of

course, it makes perfect sense that in finding some solutions to her own

quandries, she'd find those same solutions work for others, too.

Quick intro: I'm a Psychiatric Nurse Practitioner, the adoptive daughter of a

mother with BPD and NPD and a father with some serious narcissistic traits.

Just as an aside, I personally tend to diagnose a patient with BPD if I'm

hearing/seeing 4 out of 5 traits that day. My experience has been that if 4 out

of 9 are there, the 5th required for the diagnosis is very soon going to appear.

I don't need to wait for it to show to make the call that it's very likely to be

there, and that this person is now going to be routed into particular forms of

therapy and given the opportunity to learn about their diagnosis. I hope that's

not too controversial a thing to say here!

Also, while psychologists often have doctoral degrees (Psy.D.), they do not have

to have them. A master's degree is enough for licensure in most places, and

once you have a license and pass the boards, you can practice. And

psychiatrists (Medical Doctors) usually spend 3 yrs in residency like all other

doctors in training, then spend an additional 3 or 4 yrs in a fellowship, honing

their psychiatric skills and specializing in their population (adults,

children/adolescents, geriatric, forensic, etc).

I'm so very grateful for Linehan choosing to be public about her own struggles

and victories.

> > > >

> > > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > > >

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > > >

> > > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of

it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 24, 2011

thanks for that feedback, it really does sound like narcissism, doesn't it. it's

hard to say for me just guessing because my exposure to narcissism has been

mostly men, though I sometimes wonder if npd/bpd are shades of the same thing

and like antisocial pd the traits are the same and it is the diagnosis that

varies based solely on gender, this has been proven.

It's funny that I was around a screamingly narcissistic male at the same time

and pegged him right off...to me, she was so much harder to identify because

she was so subtle, so clever, so schooled at manipulating people (would have

been a lot more successful though if she'd not been an alcoholic as well, that

persona was completely different from the 'calm and cool' one she usually

displayed when sober). i got the same feeling from her that I get from the two

borderline sister in laws, it is one of looking out across a swamp and seeing

little beady alligator eyes just above the waterline, watching, watching, and

waiting. that reptilian eye taking in everything happening, making notes, and

waiting for just the right moment to attack. it's a very eerie, creepy feeling,

barely detectable, unless you have experienced it before. it's that " predatory "

thing that people mentioned.

> > > >

> > > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > > >

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > > >

> > > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of

it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 24, 2011

In some ways diagnosing personality disorders sounds more like ordering a pizza.

I have known 2 Histrionic PD's in my life, and can tell you that collectively

they exhibited symptoms of NPD, BPD and AntiSocial PD, and paranoia at different

times. Pegging people in their correct disorder with co-morbidity must be

extremely difficult. Since the DSM is revising this with every update, the

science is obviously not yet perfected.

I understand NPD is not considered a stand alone disorder any longer? It will be

interesting to see how they have woven this info the newer diagnostics.

>

> You are right: the shadings and permutations and co-morbidities of mental

disorders are so complex that only a trained, experienced psychiatrist can tease

out what exactly is going on with any given individual.

>

June 24, 2011

Welcome to the Group, donotlikealiases!

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > > > >

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen

of it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 25, 2011

Thanks!

I got frustrated with the registration process and I plugged in

" donotlikealiases " because it wouldn't let me choose not to have one. Now I

can't change it. Sigh.

Anyway, feel free to call me .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > > > > >

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen

of it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 25, 2011

Nevermind, I spoke too soon. I've been allowed to change to something a little

more user friendly.

annafelicity (formerly known as " donotlikealiases " )

> > > > > >

> > > > > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > > > > >

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen

of it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my

nada, who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 25, 2011

thanks so much for stating all that, it really helps. why is it that when I need

to do this I feel like Oliver Twist asking for more gruel.

I come from one of those families where on both sides adults protect themselves

at the expense of the children around them.

My therapist really has honed in on this for me. It is pretty striking to me

because I saw her for the first time on the 23rd of May. Which means I can't

have gone more than four times and already she has vacated two prior incorrect

dx'es of mine and told me explicitly 'you are not the crazy person in your

family' and has told me that 'all you needed was a little validation' and that

'you never got any validation, EVER'. it's interesting to me that when I look

back on early recovery I remember people, women, talking about the feeling of

not being 'real' and wondering how to be 'real'...one woman shared that she had

asked a therapist this and had been told to read " The velveteen rabbit " . But

this I believe is what it is, we are traumatized and invalidated, it's denied

right in front of us, we are told the sky is green and the grass is blue, and

there is no one around to contradict those things. In the work of Alice

she makes the point that many times the difference between neurosis or psychosis

and a relatively normal life is just having some sane adult around that is

willing to tell a child the truth about what is going on around them, and

validate them when they are being sold a pack of crap. I try to do this with my

nephew whenever possible.

So it seems to me that a child needs to have the reality of their experience

reflected in their parents eyes or they will suffer the feeling of not knowing

what is up and what is down. In my case it was the pathologizing of me by my

father and his constant psychological abuse that my mother denied to me and told

me was my fault because I was so 'ungrateful' blah blah blah and wasn't nice

enough...she set me up to attract abusers and I have been celibate ten years

because of not being able to break this cycle and being too fearful to try

again...

thanks for posting that, and sharing courage to seek out validation.

I think what rankled me so much with my return to AA this time was that it was

so freaking invalidating...and at this time in my life with what I am dealing

with, both within myself and my nephews, I can't take that crap right now, I am

just too fragile.

> > >

> > > I suspected this all along and my therapist and I have even discussed

this. I took a DBT skills class because they're not just for borderlines, but

also for people who have dissociative disorders to learn mindfulness and coping

skills. I won't say I got nothing out of the group, but going to it and

listening to waifs and hermits whine the whole time made me nauseous. I hate

that I have become so " tough " when it comes to this disorder, but I loathe it to

the core of my being. I hate I was raised by a BPD, I hate that I have

borderline fleas, I hate that it exists at all. I'd rather have been raised by

a schizophrenic.

> > >

> > > Still, the DBT skills class felt like the most invalidating " shut up and

get over it " thing I have ever been through. In fact, I started feel suicidal

while IN the group. It was several years ago, but quite honestly, it feels like

it was a waste of money.

> > >

> > > I am now in a divorce support group and I love it!

> > >

> > > Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

> > >

> > > WTO, Here is a link to today's NYTimes story:

> > >

> > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/health/23lives.html?pagewanted=3 & _r=1 & hp

> > >

> > > I'm not overly familiar with Linehan's work, but from what I've seen of

it, I've always felt that she doesn't accuartely acknowledge the destructive

intent that bpds have against others. I really do suspect that low functioning,

'cutting', sincerely suicidal borderlines may be very different than the high

functioning, predator, Cluster-B borderlines that are many of the nadas on this

board. & I wonder if Linehan's DBT would actually work for someone like my nada,

who is truly a predator. Food for thought.

> > >

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Linehan comes out as a Borderline!

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