I made my nada cry today...

[Guest guest]

I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge realization that my

mom has pretty much NEVER supported me emotionally and never will. I have

feelings that are huge, and not easy to define. mostly because I have believed

lots of untruths about myself.

I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal relationship with her. she

sees no problem and can't imagine that my life could have been anything but

happy in her " perfect family " (yes she calls it that.)

she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and she was talking to

my dh. she was asking him the usual questions, (when are you going to graduate

(he is working on a PHD and in his last year)when are you moving back home...

we explain the plans for the billionth time and let her know we will tell her

whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to put away all the food and feed the

kids. so i told her I was busy and could not talk.

today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing to disclose my

innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was rather blah, after all my life is

rather routine. and she shared some things I already knew about cousins (we have

facebook geez) and I made the mistake of telling her I already knew that. I

guess i am loosing my nada game skills.

anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not eager to be

having that conversation) and she asked if i was " tired " and I said " I'm just

busy " and she started crying and said something to the effect of " you are always

too busy to talk to me these days "

bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really have hurt her. at

what point is it just mean and not self preservation?

how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without talking about

things she has been critical of? and how to I detach myself emotionally? I spent

much of my life with a shell. I am ready to shuck it is there a way to do all of

this?

I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading this and it is no

fun.

why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? things are not

fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and have her understand. she wants

me to keep our " close relationship " but I can't be emotionally manipulated

anymore! where do I fit in or relationship?

[Guest guest]

You ask at what point is it mean rather than self-preservation.

I think it becomes " mean " when you hurt her for the sake of

hurting her rather than because she just happens to get hurt

while you're doing what you have to do to live your own life.

Our nadas are going to get hurt. BPD affects people that way.

They get hurt by everyday events that aren't hurtful to normal

people at all - things that aren't intended to hurt and that

normal people barely even notice, so how could you possibly

avoid hurting her? Did you say what you said with the intention

of making her cry? Or did you say it because it was the truthful

answer to her question? I think the latter. Also, consider

whether saying you were busy would reduce any normal person to

tears? No, it wouldn't. Saying you were busy wasn't mean. It was

normal.

You also ask where you fit in the relationship. From her point

of view, you probably don't fit in at all as a person in your

own right. You fit into the slot of being an extension of

herself that is supposed to do and be whatever she wants. Nadas

have trouble separating us from them. We're not supposed to be

separate people with our own feelings, wants, and needs. Their

brains just aren't wired to have a normal point of view where

this type of thing is concerned.

The best way I've found to stay detached emotionally is to

remind myself that her behavior isn't about me. It is about her

having BPD. It doesn't matter what I do. Nothing I do can

possibly ever satisfy her because she's not capable of feeling

that way. Even if I did everything she asked, it still wouldn't

be enough. As long as I can remember that it isn't about me, it

is much easier not to get upset and angry over the things she

says and does.

At 09:15 PM 12/10/2011 Meikjn wrote:

>I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge

>realization that my mom has pretty much NEVER supported me

>emotionally and never will. I have feelings that are huge, and

>not easy to define. mostly because I have believed lots of

>untruths about myself.

>

>I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal

>relationship with her. she sees no problem and can't imagine

>that my life could have been anything but happy in her " perfect

>family " (yes she calls it that.)

>

>she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and

>she was talking to my dh. she was asking him the usual

>questions, (when are you going to graduate (he is working on a

>PHD and in his last year)when are you moving back home... we

>explain the plans for the billionth time and let her know we

>will tell her whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to put

>away all the food and feed the kids. so i told her I was

>busy and could not talk.

>

>today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing

>to disclose my innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was

>rather blah, after all my life is rather routine. and she

>shared some things I already knew about cousins (we have

>facebook geez) and I made the mistake of telling her I already

>knew that. I guess i am loosing my nada game skills.

>

>anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not

>eager to be having that conversation) and she asked if i was

> " tired " and I said " I'm just busy " and she started crying and

>said something to the effect of " you are always too busy to

>talk to me these days "

>

>bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really

>have hurt her. at what point is it just mean and not self

>preservation?

>

>how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without

>talking about things she has been critical of? and how to I

>detach myself emotionally? I spent much of my life with a

>shell. I am ready to shuck it is there a way to do all of this?

>

>I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading

>this and it is no fun.

>

>why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now?

>things are not fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and

>have her understand. she wants me to keep our " close

>relationship " but I can't be emotionally manipulated anymore!

>where do I fit in or relationship?

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

" why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? "

You're not allowed to be hurt. Only she is. That's how it is with nadas.

This was my conversation with mine today:

Her: Hi! OH! Let me tell you what happened at work... (15 minutes of

talking--i let it go, this is our weekly conversation, I figure I can handle it

every 7 days)....so how was your week?

Me: Well, the girls and I...

Her: OH listen, did you pay my Amex bill? Because remember last time....

Our experiences and feelings--our nadas are unable or unwilling to contain or

process them. Her saying that you're too busy to talk to her these days sounds

so child-like or childISH, really. She lived her life, had her children, that

was fine. For you to try to do the same...not fine.

I'm not sure you made her cry. I think she knows it works and she turned on the

tears.

When my nada cries, I roll my eyes and wait for the tantrum to end. She's a

little waif who expects her way to happen if she cries hard enough.

A tactic many of us have talked about and employ with our nadas--and other

difficult people--is Medium Chill. Here is an article Annie (one of the other

post-ers here) had posted earlier this year. Use these techniques with your

nada; it offers you emotional boundaries from her intrusiveness and sense of

entitlement that you owe her unlimited time and attention.

***article follows below***

Here it is:

" I was just brushing up on a technique that I'll need this weekend to deal with

a BPD relative. It's called " Medium Chill " , and it was taught to me by a friend

whose mother suffers from BPD.

Medium Chill:

When they lash out - show no anger

When they are nice- don't reciprocate.

Be distant and flat in both cases. When they sense they can't manipulate your

reaction, they tend to leave you alone.

Tell them nothing, ask them nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries.

Medium Chill gives no appearance of withdrawal, so they can't accuse you of

giving them

the cold shoulder. You are there, you're just not present to them.

Medium Chill is effective because they no longer feel " safe " in their ability to

generate chaos. So now you're back in control. It takes a bit of practice, as

you have to learn to disconnect from them emotionally. But I've had some great

success using this.

When I first came to these boards, I read about boundaries and limited contact

(LC). They all made sense, and I felt as if I had been doing them already for a

very long time. The same friend who introduced me to these boards also

introduced me to the concept of Medium Chill, though I must admit it took a

little while and practice for to " get it " that Medium Chill is something more

that taps into the psyche and become the Medium Chill Zen Master.

It's a bit late here and I'm more than a touch tired, so I might not be

particularly eloquent as I type this tonight....

It's about more than just boundaries.

To put it in simpler terms, it's a two-parter with a specific attitude:

(1) never share personal or private information on yourself;

(2) never get involved in their problems/drama;

(attitude) pleasant, modest, implacably calm-- never showing anger or

compassionate involvement; paying attention but not too much attention-- while

NEVER violating items one or two

Remember, a person can only use information they know about you to find your hot

buttons and use it against you if they're highly manipulative (like so many BPDs

are). So don't let them know your hot buttons.

Does your BPD pick fights with you when something is wrong with him/her? Then by

being a dull listener, they'll get bored and move on to someone they have a

greater effect upon. I swear, it really does work.

Are you unwittingly giving them the roadmap to figure out what you're sensitive

about, so they can exploit those things later on to make YOU upset when THEY are

upset but can't deal with those emotions on their own like a healthy adult?

Are you offering advice or help with only the best of intentions? Well, if

things go wrong, and they CAN'T blame themselves as part of BPD, who do you

think they're going to blame? Are you just putting yourself in the line of

eventual fire without realizing it?

If they're angry and they get you angry, then they can successfully transfer the

emotions they can't cope with onto you (projection) .

If they're angry and lashing out, they get relief from their inner turmoil by

getting YOU upset. So don't ever show yourself getting upset. If they're upset

and they can make you upset too, their goal has been achieved. I swear, as it

worked for the other poster, it worked for me too-- my BPD mother rather quickly

would see who was the most active listener and turn her energies there. I was no

longer a means to an end; she no longer got relief from her inner pain by making

me feel pain too.

Of course, one of my physical boundaries was to not do a one-on-one meeting with

her again in non-public places; this played very well into Medium Chill. There's

always someone more unenlightened and more of a sucker than you that they target

instead. It might be an unfortunate still-enmeshed family member; it might be

the waiter. But the point is, it will NOT BE YOU.

Likewise, don't especially share their joys when they're on a high. If they come

to view you as a confidente/soulmate , who do you think they're going to turn to

when their rage is highest and they need to foist it off onto someone else?

It's all about disengaging from playing into the messed up BPD dynamic. We often

talk about boundaries around here, like only speaking once a week on the phone,

or not staying overnight in their houses, or a host of other physical actions of

restraint...

.... " Medium Chill " techniques, however, are boundaries for your soul.

>

> I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge realization that

my mom has pretty much NEVER supported me emotionally and never will. I have

feelings that are huge, and not easy to define. mostly because I have believed

lots of untruths about myself.

>

> I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal relationship with her. she

sees no problem and can't imagine that my life could have been anything but

happy in her " perfect family " (yes she calls it that.)

>

> she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and she was talking

to my dh. she was asking him the usual questions, (when are you going to

graduate (he is working on a PHD and in his last year)when are you moving back

home... we explain the plans for the billionth time and let her know we will

tell her whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to put away all the food and

feed the kids. so i told her I was busy and could not talk.

>

> today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing to disclose my

innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was rather blah, after all my life is

rather routine. and she shared some things I already knew about cousins (we have

facebook geez) and I made the mistake of telling her I already knew that. I

guess i am loosing my nada game skills.

>

> anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not eager to be

having that conversation) and she asked if i was " tired " and I said " I'm just

busy " and she started crying and said something to the effect of " you are always

too busy to talk to me these days "

>

> bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really have hurt her. at

what point is it just mean and not self preservation?

>

> how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without talking about

things she has been critical of? and how to I detach myself emotionally? I spent

much of my life with a shell. I am ready to shuck it is there a way to do all of

this?

>

> I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading this and it is

no fun.

>

> why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? things are not

fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and have her understand. she wants

me to keep our " close relationship " but I can't be emotionally manipulated

anymore! where do I fit in or relationship?

>

[Guest guest]

You didn't make your nada cry, that's only what she wants you to think. She

cried, be it from genuine sadness or cunning manipulation. But you did nothing

wrong. She is looking to you to have her emotional needs met, and that is

completely inappropriate for a parent to do to their child. Parents need to get

their emotional needs met from people other than their children. A rational

parent would think, " Hm, Meikjn is too busy to talk, maybe I'll look up Joe

(friend) and see what he's up to. " But nadas usually don't have a Joe to fall

back on as they have trained their children to fill this role.

My nada used to cry all the time at any perceived slight: if I failed to call

her back quickly enough, if I wasn't enthusiastic about singing in church, if I

wouldn't perform for her guests, etc. Irritates me to no end.

>

> I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge realization that

my mom has pretty much NEVER supported me emotionally and never will. I have

feelings that are huge, and not easy to define. mostly because I have believed

lots of untruths about myself.

>

> I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal relationship with her. she

sees no problem and can't imagine that my life could have been anything but

happy in her " perfect family " (yes she calls it that.)

>

> she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and she was talking

to my dh. she was asking him the usual questions, (when are you going to

graduate (he is working on a PHD and in his last year)when are you moving back

home... we explain the plans for the billionth time and let her know we will

tell her whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to put away all the food and

feed the kids. so i told her I was busy and could not talk.

>

> today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing to disclose my

innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was rather blah, after all my life is

rather routine. and she shared some things I already knew about cousins (we have

facebook geez) and I made the mistake of telling her I already knew that. I

guess i am loosing my nada game skills.

>

> anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not eager to be

having that conversation) and she asked if i was " tired " and I said " I'm just

busy " and she started crying and said something to the effect of " you are always

too busy to talk to me these days "

>

> bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really have hurt her. at

what point is it just mean and not self preservation?

>

> how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without talking about

things she has been critical of? and how to I detach myself emotionally? I spent

much of my life with a shell. I am ready to shuck it is there a way to do all of

this?

>

> I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading this and it is

no fun.

>

> why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? things are not

fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and have her understand. she wants

me to keep our " close relationship " but I can't be emotionally manipulated

anymore! where do I fit in or relationship?

>

[Guest guest]

What you are dealing with is the subject of boundaries in your

relationship. Nada, of course, recognizes NO boundaries. It is

important for you to understand that to her, you exist as an extension

of herself, with the primary, if not sole, purpose of filling her

bottomless well of needs.

So, from that perspective, look at it this way. If a bird flies at your

window at top speed, bounces off, shakes his head, says Shit in bird ,

then gets up and tries again, did YOU hurt the bird by not opening the

window, and having a bird flying around your kitchen ( because in my

analogy, my bird feeder is in the kitchen window!) or was it the bird

who hurt itself by crashing your boundaries over and over?

The reality is Nada s will FOG you into a position in which you cannot

live your life, with boundaries for your health and happiness, without

it hurting them. But they will not accept your boundaries, and nothing

you give will be enough. They HOOVER, sucking out of you all you have,

and more, till you are as miserable and empty as they are. IF, you let

them.

You can establish what is acceptable: Mom, I ll call you or you can call

me at these times and I will be able to talk. Or, Mom, I ll call you

every other day, and talk for 15 minutes, then I ll have to go.

Whatever you are comfortable with. She will find it to be inadequate.

Even if, mind you, you were on the phone with her, neglecting your

family and job and life, until she was bored with you. She will choose

to be hurt by it.

You can choose what part of your life you will share with her, and do

so. You can choose what will let you find emotional balance, and health,

and happiness. But you cannot choose happiness for her. That is her

choice. And she will only give you 2 choices: give up everything and be

at her beck and call, or be a " heartless villain of a daughter.

As to the nada game skills, it is like the movie War Games. The only

winning move is not to play.

I finally, over many years, developed a set of rules with my nada that I

would discuss with her only certain areas. If she pushed about an area

I was not willing to discuss, one warning to get off it, then I d hang

up. She didnt like it. And I was a cruel , heartless, scary son for

doing so.

And now, over 2 years past her death, I still get twinges of guilt. The

FOG still at work. But I am healing. And without those boundaries, it

would never have been possible.

Doug

>

> I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge

realization that my mom has pretty much NEVER supported me emotionally

and never will. I have feelings that are huge, and not easy to define.

mostly because I have believed lots of untruths about myself.

>

> I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal relationship with

her. she sees no problem and can't imagine that my life could have been

anything but happy in her " perfect family " (yes she calls it that.)

>

> she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and she was

talking to my dh. she was asking him the usual questions, (when are you

going to graduate (he is working on a PHD and in his last year)when are

you moving back home... we explain the plans for the billionth time and

let her know we will tell her whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to

put away all the food and feed the kids. so i told her I was busy and

could not talk.

>

> today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing to

disclose my innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was rather blah,

after all my life is rather routine. and she shared some things I

already knew about cousins (we have facebook geez) and I made the

mistake of telling her I already knew that. I guess i am loosing my nada

game skills.

>

> anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not eager

to be having that conversation) and she asked if i was " tired " and I

said " I'm just busy " and she started crying and said something to the

effect of " you are always too busy to talk to me these days "

>

> bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really have hurt

her. at what point is it just mean and not self preservation?

>

> how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without talking

about things she has been critical of? and how to I detach myself

emotionally? I spent much of my life with a shell. I am ready to shuck

it is there a way to do all of this?

>

> I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading this and

it is no fun.

>

> why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? things

are not fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and have her

understand. she wants me to keep our " close relationship " but I can't be

emotionally manipulated anymore! where do I fit in or relationship?

>

[Guest guest]

" My nada used to cry all the time at any perceived slight: if I failed to call

her back quickly enough, if I wasn't enthusiastic about singing in church, if I

wouldn't perform for her guests, etc. Irritates me to no end. "

Right??! Me too! If I didn't call her back fast enough and then spend 30

minutes listening to her. If I told her my husband needed to use the phone.

Tears, tears!

The last time she cried for me was this past summer. Know what I did? Nothing.

I just sat there and watched her cry, and then asked her about something else.

Know what she did? She stopped crying!

She can turn it off and on very easily.

> >

> > I am struggling I am a bit overwhelmed right now by the huge realization

that my mom has pretty much NEVER supported me emotionally and never will. I

have feelings that are huge, and not easy to define. mostly because I have

believed lots of untruths about myself.

> >

> > I am feeling better, but not ready to have a normal relationship with her.

she sees no problem and can't imagine that my life could have been anything but

happy in her " perfect family " (yes she calls it that.)

> >

> > she calls every week. last week I got home from shopping and she was talking

to my dh. she was asking him the usual questions, (when are you going to

graduate (he is working on a PHD and in his last year)when are you moving back

home... we explain the plans for the billionth time and let her know we will

tell her whenever we know ourselves.) and I had to put away all the food and

feed the kids. so i told her I was busy and could not talk.

> >

> > today she called and we talked, and I feeling less than willing to disclose

my innermost feelings (can you blame me?) was rather blah, after all my life is

rather routine. and she shared some things I already knew about cousins (we have

facebook geez) and I made the mistake of telling her I already knew that. I

guess i am loosing my nada game skills.

> >

> > anyway the kids were being kids, and I was distracted, (and not eager to be

having that conversation) and she asked if i was " tired " and I said " I'm just

busy " and she started crying and said something to the effect of " you are always

too busy to talk to me these days "

> >

> > bring on the F.O.G. I do have one honest question. I really have hurt her.

at what point is it just mean and not self preservation?

> >

> > how do I give her a a flowery happy report of my life without talking about

things she has been critical of? and how to I detach myself emotionally? I spent

much of my life with a shell. I am ready to shuck it is there a way to do all of

this?

> >

> > I think she just wants things to stay the same I was dreading this and it is

no fun.

> >

> > why can't she just understand that I need to be hurt right now? things are

not fine for me, and I wish I could tell her why and have her understand. she

wants me to keep our " close relationship " but I can't be emotionally manipulated

anymore! where do I fit in or relationship?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doug, loved the War Games analogy! Good one.

>

> As to the nada game skills, it is like the movie War Games. The only

> winning move is not to play.

>