Back from seeing nada in hospice

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I'm back from my trip; it went OK. I'm OK. (But as I figured, I got lung crud

aka bronchitis.) Nada is in hospice care but still able to sit up and have

lucid spells where she recognizes visitors and can have conversations. The

cocktail of meds she is on now has improved her lucidity and taken away most of

her paranoia and hallucinations (earlier, nada had become belligerent and

violent because she was convinced that the nursing staff, Sister and her doctors

were trying to poison her.)

I was able to visit with her five times during this trip. My greatest feeling

was a sense of shock at how tiny and shrunken she has become just in the last 18

months since I last saw her. I truly did pity her; she is not a happy person,

but then, she never has been. She has always been very unhappy, envious, and

frustrated, and blamed her misery on dad, Sister and me.

At this time in her life, she is happiest when people are visiting her and

giving her the attention she craves; there is literally nothing inside her

resembling a " self " that can give her emotional sustenance. So I'm grateful

that her sisters and their kids stop by to see my nada on weekends for short

visits; they are good-hearted people.

There is no definitive prognosis RE how long nada might remain in this state.

Her pneumonia and ability to breathe fluctuates, and she occasionally slips into

a semi-coma. I may have seen my nada alive for the last time, but, there is no

knowing.

My poor Sister was on the thin edge of ragged exhaustion, however, having her

own medical issues to deal with. I was able to give Sister a little respite and

take the pressure off her briefly during my stay; not nearly enough to reward

her for her years and years of service to nada, but, Sister will keep going like

an energizer bunny until she collapses. I hope that my Sister will take the

rest of this week to just relax and get her strength back.

Sister and I were able to spend a lot of time talking with each other, about

nada, our memories growing up, how our lives have been impacted. We agreed

that what we mostly feel for our nada is pity and a kind of filial duty, but

that is not the same thing as love.

Sister reaffirmed that mom had destroyed the last vestiges of real love Sister

had for her, long ago. I agreed that its pretty much impossible to love someone

you fear, who you know is going to take advantage of your open, trusting heart

and stab it, repeatedly. And then call YOU mean and crazy and hateful. Its

just not possible to love someone who puts you through emotional torture; at

least, its not possible for *me*. That's what the experience most closely

resembles to me: torture. Its illegal to emotionally torture incarcerated

criminals and prisoners of war, yet my Sister and I repeatedly, chronically

experienced both emotional and physical torture at the hands of our own mother.

Sister shared with me that her new theory is that our nada all along actually

had at least some of the traits and behaviors of paranoid schizophrenia, with

the bpd emotional disregulation and bpd fear of abandonment and other

bpd/npd/ocpd traits as simply a kind of rancid cherry on top. I just don't know

if I fully agree with that or not, mainly because schizophrenia has been shown

to *definitely* have a genetic component, and as I've mentioned before NOBODY in

my mother's family, either in her father's or her mother's side of the family

tree, has mental illnesses like schizophrenia or personality disorder.

My mother is an anomaly. I think she should be studied.

So. Anyway. I'm glad I went. I was able to honor the fragments of my mother

that tried to be normal, tried to be a good mother. I do love those little

fragments, when a whole and mentally healthy human being peeked out briefly and

loved me back.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I'm so glad the visit was beneficial for you.

I have been thinking a lot about love lately, as it pertains to my parents. I do

care about them in a detached sense, and I would even say that I love them, but

I feel absolutely no affection for them. I think there is a difference. I am

able to see that they are human beings and hope that they find peace, etc., but

I do not want to be anywhere near them while they do it. I think you and your

Sister are right that the " radical acceptance, " opposite-of-denial truth is that

abuse will not create warm fuzzy feelings. It will eventually erase them all.

I think it is very compassionate of your Sister to care for someone she feels no

affection for. And for you to give that same person the gift of your presence

for a short time. That is above and beyond what is required of either of you.

Sveta

[Guest guest]

So sorry, Annie. Anticipatory grief is one of the hardest. I lost my

nada 2 1\2 years ago. It doesnt matter, in the end, that she was a Nada

and all that entails. She was, for better or worse, the only Mom we

got. We grieve losing what we never had, what little we did have, and

the end of our hope that she might someday get better and be a real

Mommy.

For all she was, it is our Mom. For all our hurt, we still have

feelings for her. And always, all of us, to some extent, we never

stopped hoping, ever.

You will grieve. And I m guessing, you ARE grieving. Sorry my friend.

We are here.

Doug

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm back from my trip; it went OK. I'm OK. (But as I figured, I got

lung crud aka bronchitis.) Nada is in hospice care but still able to sit

up and have lucid spells where she recognizes visitors and can have

conversations. The cocktail of meds she is on now has improved her

lucidity and taken away most of her paranoia and hallucinations

(earlier, nada had become belligerent and violent because she was

convinced that the nursing staff, Sister and her doctors were trying to

poison her.)

>

> I was able to visit with her five times during this trip. My greatest

feeling was a sense of shock at how tiny and shrunken she has become

just in the last 18 months since I last saw her. I truly did pity her;

she is not a happy person, but then, she never has been. She has always

been very unhappy, envious, and frustrated, and blamed her misery on

dad, Sister and me.

>

> At this time in her life, she is happiest when people are visiting her

and giving her the attention she craves; there is literally nothing

inside her resembling a " self " that can give her emotional sustenance.

So I'm grateful that her sisters and their kids stop by to see my nada

on weekends for short visits; they are good-hearted people.

>

> There is no definitive prognosis RE how long nada might remain in this

state. Her pneumonia and ability to breathe fluctuates, and she

occasionally slips into a semi-coma. I may have seen my nada alive for

the last time, but, there is no knowing.

>

> My poor Sister was on the thin edge of ragged exhaustion, however,

having her own medical issues to deal with. I was able to give Sister a

little respite and take the pressure off her briefly during my stay; not

nearly enough to reward her for her years and years of service to nada,

but, Sister will keep going like an energizer bunny until she collapses.

I hope that my Sister will take the rest of this week to just relax and

get her strength back.

>

> Sister and I were able to spend a lot of time talking with each other,

about nada, our memories growing up, how our lives have been impacted.

We agreed that what we mostly feel for our nada is pity and a kind of

filial duty, but that is not the same thing as love.

>

> Sister reaffirmed that mom had destroyed the last vestiges of real

love Sister had for her, long ago. I agreed that its pretty much

impossible to love someone you fear, who you know is going to take

advantage of your open, trusting heart and stab it, repeatedly. And then

call YOU mean and crazy and hateful. Its just not possible to love

someone who puts you through emotional torture; at least, its not

possible for *me*. That's what the experience most closely resembles to

me: torture. Its illegal to emotionally torture incarcerated criminals

and prisoners of war, yet my Sister and I repeatedly, chronically

experienced both emotional and physical torture at the hands of our own

mother.

>

> Sister shared with me that her new theory is that our nada all along

actually had at least some of the traits and behaviors of paranoid

schizophrenia, with the bpd emotional disregulation and bpd fear of

abandonment and other bpd/npd/ocpd traits as simply a kind of rancid

cherry on top. I just don't know if I fully agree with that or not,

mainly because schizophrenia has been shown to *definitely* have a

genetic component, and as I've mentioned before NOBODY in my mother's

family, either in her father's or her mother's side of the family tree,

has mental illnesses like schizophrenia or personality disorder.

>

> My mother is an anomaly. I think she should be studied.

>

> So. Anyway. I'm glad I went. I was able to honor the fragments of my

mother that tried to be normal, tried to be a good mother. I do love

those little fragments, when a whole and mentally healthy human being

peeked out briefly and loved me back.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie

I am glad that out of the maelstrom of abuse, you were able to pull the last

vestiges of a " mother " from your visit. I draw from your experience because I

feel that with my nada's health - I am headed for a rollercoaster of emotions

around her.

Koko

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm back from my trip; it went OK. I'm OK. (But as I figured, I got lung

crud aka bronchitis.) Nada is in hospice care but still able to sit up and have

lucid spells where she recognizes visitors and can have conversations. The

cocktail of meds she is on now has improved her lucidity and taken away most of

her paranoia and hallucinations (earlier, nada had become belligerent and

violent because she was convinced that the nursing staff, Sister and her doctors

were trying to poison her.)

>

> I was able to visit with her five times during this trip. My greatest feeling

was a sense of shock at how tiny and shrunken she has become just in the last 18

months since I last saw her. I truly did pity her; she is not a happy person,

but then, she never has been. She has always been very unhappy, envious, and

frustrated, and blamed her misery on dad, Sister and me.

>

> At this time in her life, she is happiest when people are visiting her and

giving her the attention she craves; there is literally nothing inside her

resembling a " self " that can give her emotional sustenance. So I'm grateful

that her sisters and their kids stop by to see my nada on weekends for short

visits; they are good-hearted people.

>

> There is no definitive prognosis RE how long nada might remain in this state.

Her pneumonia and ability to breathe fluctuates, and she occasionally slips into

a semi-coma. I may have seen my nada alive for the last time, but, there is no

knowing.

>

> My poor Sister was on the thin edge of ragged exhaustion, however, having her

own medical issues to deal with. I was able to give Sister a little respite and

take the pressure off her briefly during my stay; not nearly enough to reward

her for her years and years of service to nada, but, Sister will keep going like

an energizer bunny until she collapses. I hope that my Sister will take the

rest of this week to just relax and get her strength back.

>

> Sister and I were able to spend a lot of time talking with each other, about

nada, our memories growing up, how our lives have been impacted. We agreed

that what we mostly feel for our nada is pity and a kind of filial duty, but

that is not the same thing as love.

>

> Sister reaffirmed that mom had destroyed the last vestiges of real love Sister

had for her, long ago. I agreed that its pretty much impossible to love someone

you fear, who you know is going to take advantage of your open, trusting heart

and stab it, repeatedly. And then call YOU mean and crazy and hateful. Its

just not possible to love someone who puts you through emotional torture; at

least, its not possible for *me*. That's what the experience most closely

resembles to me: torture. Its illegal to emotionally torture incarcerated

criminals and prisoners of war, yet my Sister and I repeatedly, chronically

experienced both emotional and physical torture at the hands of our own mother.

>

> Sister shared with me that her new theory is that our nada all along actually

had at least some of the traits and behaviors of paranoid schizophrenia, with

the bpd emotional disregulation and bpd fear of abandonment and other

bpd/npd/ocpd traits as simply a kind of rancid cherry on top. I just don't know

if I fully agree with that or not, mainly because schizophrenia has been shown

to *definitely* have a genetic component, and as I've mentioned before NOBODY in

my mother's family, either in her father's or her mother's side of the family

tree, has mental illnesses like schizophrenia or personality disorder.

>

> My mother is an anomaly. I think she should be studied.

>

> So. Anyway. I'm glad I went. I was able to honor the fragments of my mother

that tried to be normal, tried to be a good mother. I do love those little

fragments, when a whole and mentally healthy human being peeked out briefly and

loved me back.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I hope you're feeling better, and the bronchitis resolves quickly. I'm glad you

had this time with your sister, especially.

I visited nada last weekend, she'd just turned 75. My SO went with me, and so

she was on her best behavior. I'd just seen her two months ago, yet she seemed

so much more frail this time. And like you, I felt pity for her. Those needy,

manipulative behaviors are so ingrained. What I saw was a lonely, scared,

frail old lady. She has a host of physical issues and some days can barely

walk. I felt that FOG creep in.

She has her cat, and wonderful caregivers. I cannot give her what she wants,

but I make sure she has what she needs. Extended family doesn't have any

contact with her, and she alienated most of her and my dad's friends years ago,

so when he died, they cut the ties. His best friend told me, " She killed my best

friend. " (she wore him out.)

I feel the same sense of filial duty. It's not love. And it's a hell of a lot

more than nada showed her own mom, who had severe Alzheimer's, but lived to be

98. My mom wouldn't visit, saying there was no payoff, " She doesn't even know

I'm there " . Funny, my grandparents were as abused and pushed around by nada as

the rest of us, but they never gave up hope.

I'm sorry. I intended this to be more supportive of what you're going through.

I just wanted to validate the duty vs. love, and seeing nada in a different way,

as frail, sad old ladies.

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm back from my trip; it went OK. I'm OK. (But as I figured, I got lung

crud aka bronchitis.) Nada is in hospice care but still able to sit up and have

lucid spells where she recognizes visitors and can have conversations. The

cocktail of meds she is on now has improved her lucidity and taken away most of

her paranoia and hallucinations (earlier, nada had become belligerent and

violent because she was convinced that the nursing staff, Sister and her doctors

were trying to poison her.)

>

> I was able to visit with her five times during this trip. My greatest feeling

was a sense of shock at how tiny and shrunken she has become just in the last 18

months since I last saw her. I truly did pity her; she is not a happy person,

but then, she never has been. She has always been very unhappy, envious, and

frustrated, and blamed her misery on dad, Sister and me.

>

> At this time in her life, she is happiest when people are visiting her and

giving her the attention she craves; there is literally nothing inside her

resembling a " self " that can give her emotional sustenance. So I'm grateful

that her sisters and their kids stop by to see my nada on weekends for short

visits; they are good-hearted people.

>

> There is no definitive prognosis RE how long nada might remain in this state.

Her pneumonia and ability to breathe fluctuates, and she occasionally slips into

a semi-coma. I may have seen my nada alive for the last time, but, there is no

knowing.

>

> My poor Sister was on the thin edge of ragged exhaustion, however, having her

own medical issues to deal with. I was able to give Sister a little respite and

take the pressure off her briefly during my stay; not nearly enough to reward

her for her years and years of service to nada, but, Sister will keep going like

an energizer bunny until she collapses. I hope that my Sister will take the

rest of this week to just relax and get her strength back.

>

> Sister and I were able to spend a lot of time talking with each other, about

nada, our memories growing up, how our lives have been impacted. We agreed

that what we mostly feel for our nada is pity and a kind of filial duty, but

that is not the same thing as love.

>

> Sister reaffirmed that mom had destroyed the last vestiges of real love Sister

had for her, long ago. I agreed that its pretty much impossible to love someone

you fear, who you know is going to take advantage of your open, trusting heart

and stab it, repeatedly. And then call YOU mean and crazy and hateful. Its

just not possible to love someone who puts you through emotional torture; at

least, its not possible for *me*. That's what the experience most closely

resembles to me: torture. Its illegal to emotionally torture incarcerated

criminals and prisoners of war, yet my Sister and I repeatedly, chronically

experienced both emotional and physical torture at the hands of our own mother.

>

> Sister shared with me that her new theory is that our nada all along actually

had at least some of the traits and behaviors of paranoid schizophrenia, with

the bpd emotional disregulation and bpd fear of abandonment and other

bpd/npd/ocpd traits as simply a kind of rancid cherry on top. I just don't know

if I fully agree with that or not, mainly because schizophrenia has been shown

to *definitely* have a genetic component, and as I've mentioned before NOBODY in

my mother's family, either in her father's or her mother's side of the family

tree, has mental illnesses like schizophrenia or personality disorder.

>

> My mother is an anomaly. I think she should be studied.

>

> So. Anyway. I'm glad I went. I was able to honor the fragments of my mother

that tried to be normal, tried to be a good mother. I do love those little

fragments, when a whole and mentally healthy human being peeked out briefly and

loved me back.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, stillsmirky. I'm glad I went to see nada when I did, because Sister

called me today to tell me that our nada has now slipped into a coma. Nada

refused her regular medicine and treatment yesterday, saying to her hospice

caregiver that she was ready to " go. "

Nada is now under observation; a hospice worker is in the room with her 24/7,

but under a " do not resuscitate " order, directly from nada. Nada's pneumonia

could take her quickly. I hope that is the case; I always hated the idea of

anyone slowly dehydrating and starving to death, even if they're in a coma and

are unaware. Her sisters, their adult kids, and nada's sister in law and her

daughter have been by to see nada. I think that was very kind of them; I am

grateful for their kindness.

Such mixed feelings, I'm experiencing. It helps so much to know that my nada's

younger sister has shared with me and my Sister that she knows what an unhappy,

miserable individual my nada has always been and believes that our nada will

only be able to find happiness in the afterlife. It helps that my Sister and I

feel the same way; if nada is ready to leave this plane of existence, we wish

for her to find the happiness she never had here, in the spiritual realm.

If pity and filial duty is all we can muster at this point, then, that is the

best we can do; I don't think its right to beat ourselves up for truly doing the

best we can do.

-Annie

>

> Annie,

>

> I hope you're feeling better, and the bronchitis resolves quickly. I'm glad

you had this time with your sister, especially.

> I visited nada last weekend, she'd just turned 75. My SO went with me, and so

she was on her best behavior. I'd just seen her two months ago, yet she seemed

so much more frail this time. And like you, I felt pity for her. Those needy,

manipulative behaviors are so ingrained. What I saw was a lonely, scared,

frail old lady. She has a host of physical issues and some days can barely

walk. I felt that FOG creep in.

> She has her cat, and wonderful caregivers. I cannot give her what she wants,

but I make sure she has what she needs. Extended family doesn't have any

contact with her, and she alienated most of her and my dad's friends years ago,

so when he died, they cut the ties. His best friend told me, " She killed my best

friend. " (she wore him out.)

> I feel the same sense of filial duty. It's not love. And it's a hell of a

lot more than nada showed her own mom, who had severe Alzheimer's, but lived to

be 98. My mom wouldn't visit, saying there was no payoff, " She doesn't even

know I'm there " . Funny, my grandparents were as abused and pushed around by

nada as the rest of us, but they never gave up hope.

>

> I'm sorry. I intended this to be more supportive of what you're going

through. I just wanted to validate the duty vs. love, and seeing nada in a

different way, as frail, sad old ladies.