Re: Old Afibbers and Warfarin /TRYING TO DECIDE

[Guest guest]

:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

so called blood thinners.

I must admit that I read all your postings here with great interest

because you deal not only with your own Afib problems, but with all

sorts of cardio related troubles every day. And, I must admit to

calling warfarin 'rat poison' myself, on occasion. But at least I

have an historical reason. I'm now nearly 70. When I was a tyke

my grandmother who lived on a farm raised chickens. To control the

rats that were a constant problem to anybody who raised poultry, she

showed me the large can of warfarin with the skull and crossbones on

it and warned me of the dangers of it. To her it was a miracle drug.

It was so much better than the old poisons like strychnine because

the rats avoided it and if they did eat it they would crawl away to

die and stink up the place.

Warfarin could be left out and even mixed with chicken feed because

chickens didn't digest and absorb it like mammals (rats). The rats

that ate the warfarin would usually die out in the open where they

could easily be picked up and disposed of properly. That's why

warfarin became so popular as a rat poison and the use of extremely

deadly alternatives was kept to a minimum.

Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

that you don't interfere with that relationship.

Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

S.

>

> They are one in the same...one's a brand name. It's all rat poison!

> ....christine

[Guest guest]

, what a great post. Really interesting to hear some of the 'history' of

the use of warfarin for rats. You'll get no disagreement from me. I think we

shouldn't use the term 'rat poison' when discussing life-saving blood

thinners. No one is thrilled to be taking them, but those who have a higher

risk of

stroke due to afib or other heart issues such as valve involvement, are

grateful such a drug exists.

Lil

In a message dated 5/3/2006 9:58:25 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,

john_s2385@... writes:

Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

that you don't interfere with that relationship.

Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

[Guest guest]

,

I think that has contributed a lot of sound information in

the short time she's been on the board, so I wouldn't hang her over

her use of the term " rat poison " !

But I did enjoy your description of warfarin being used to kill the

rats on your grandmother's farm. Many years ago, I rented a house

that turned out to be infested with mice. We could hear them running

through the walls at night, and their droppings were everywhere. It

was really awful. We hired an exterminator, who put out warfarin. He

told us that the mice would go in search of water (possibly to

replace the blood volume they were losing?), and that we wouldn't

have to deal with the dead bodies.

Unfortunately, the warfarin didn't work, and we finally resorted to

the old-fashioned traps. The traps did the trick, but we spent many

sleepless nights listening to the traps snapping. And my husband had

to deal with the dead mouse bodies and re-bait the traps, because

there was no way that I was gonna do it! We moved soon after.

-- In AFIBsupport , " " wrote:

>

> :

>

> I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

> the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

> to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

> but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

> more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

> qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

> readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

> warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

> so called blood thinners.

>

> I must admit that I read all your postings here with great interest

> because you deal not only with your own Afib problems, but with all

> sorts of cardio related troubles every day. And, I must admit to

> calling warfarin 'rat poison' myself, on occasion. But at least I

> have an historical reason. I'm now nearly 70. When I was a tyke

> my grandmother who lived on a farm raised chickens. To control the

> rats that were a constant problem to anybody who raised poultry, she

> showed me the large can of warfarin with the skull and crossbones on

> it and warned me of the dangers of it. To her it was a miracle

drug.

> It was so much better than the old poisons like strychnine because

> the rats avoided it and if they did eat it they would crawl away to

> die and stink up the place.

>

> Warfarin could be left out and even mixed with chicken feed because

> chickens didn't digest and absorb it like mammals (rats). The rats

> that ate the warfarin would usually die out in the open where they

> could easily be picked up and disposed of properly. That's why

> warfarin became so popular as a rat poison and the use of extremely

> deadly alternatives was kept to a minimum.

>

> Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

> But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

> decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

> that you don't interfere with that relationship.

>

> Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

> for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

> group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

>

> S.

>

>

> >

> > They are one in the same...one's a brand name. It's all rat

poison!

> > ....christine

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

No, I'm not that thin-skinned that I would be offended by your comments!! I

take what you say seriously. I definately don't want to frighten anyone into

not taking the warfarin as directed. Just too much familiararity with the

subject on my part.

Warfarin (coumadin) was (is still) used for killing mice/rats due to it's

blood thinning effects ... in LARGE doses it causes internal hemorrhaging ie

dead rodents! The benefit of this drug is that in CONTROLLED doses, it thins

the blood just enough to prevent those nasty clots that can cause us humans

problems.

I in NO WAY want to scare anyone. Whomever is taking warfarin is monitored

closely to keep their INR (how thin the blood is) within a certain range (2-3

for a-fibbers). This is FAR from a toxic dose.

Sorry to anyone I've frightened. I prescribe warfarin to anyone who meets the

AHA/ACC guidelines without hesitation. I'll not refer to it as rat poison again

.....!

john_s2385@...> wrote:

:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

so called blood thinners.

I must admit that I read all your postings here with great interest

because you deal not only with your own Afib problems, but with all

sorts of cardio related troubles every day. And, I must admit to

calling warfarin 'rat poison' myself, on occasion. But at least I

have an historical reason. I'm now nearly 70. When I was a tyke

my grandmother who lived on a farm raised chickens. To control the

rats that were a constant problem to anybody who raised poultry, she

showed me the large can of warfarin with the skull and crossbones on

it and warned me of the dangers of it. To her it was a miracle drug.

It was so much better than the old poisons like strychnine because

the rats avoided it and if they did eat it they would crawl away to

die and stink up the place.

Warfarin could be left out and even mixed with chicken feed because

chickens didn't digest and absorb it like mammals (rats). The rats

that ate the warfarin would usually die out in the open where they

could easily be picked up and disposed of properly. That's why

warfarin became so popular as a rat poison and the use of extremely

deadly alternatives was kept to a minimum.

Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

that you don't interfere with that relationship.

Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

S.

>

> They are one in the same...one's a brand name. It's all rat poison!

> ....christine

Web Page - http://www.afibsupport.com

List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be

acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just to make sure that nobody is given misleading information, Coumadin

(warfarin) actually does not " thin " the blood. The compound changes the

coagulating properties so that it takes longer for the blood to clot. Hence the

Pro-Time testing (converted to INR readings). Most EP's feel a range between 2.0

- 3.0 for A-Fib is acceptable.

I just had a long time employee's husband (51) diagnosed with A-Fib and his

Doctor gave him a prescription for Coumadin. Before he had the prescription

filled yesterday, one of his co-workers scared him with the " rat-poison " story.

My employee asked me to talk to her husband and explain about the " story. " I am

not 100% sure that my reassuring information convinced him that the alternative

to not taking Coumadin is a very real risk (stroke). He should be joining our

group soon I hope.

I will never forget my original diagnosis about 5 years ago when my Doctor said

(there is good news and Bad news about your A-Fib) you won't die from A-Fib, but

you can die from a stroke. After his very thorough explanation, it was pretty

clear that I did not have a reasonable option at that point, so I went on

Coumadin right away.

After trying many meds and cardio versions, with limited success, I finally had

a PVI a year ago. A-Fib was gone until about a week ago, this time around the

symptoms are less troublesome and infrequent, however, as a precaution, I am

back on Coumadin until we (2- EP's and a very involved me) decide on the next

course of action. I have no qualms about going in for another PVI/PVA procedure,

especially since Dr. Natale is my EP surgeon and my primary EP is very good and

local.

At 70 years old and comparing my health (A-Fib only) with some of my friends, I

feel that I am the lucky one believe it or not. Sooner or later, I feel

confident that this A-Fib will be silenced once and for all.

I keep all my " emotions " on the positive side of the ledger, there is no other

way to do it, just believe it, it will be the best medicine you will ever take!!

Sincerely,

Fred T. (Northern California)

Re: Re: Old Afibbers and Warfarin /TRYING TO DECIDE

Hi ,

No, I'm not that thin-skinned that I would be offended by your comments!! I

take what you say seriously. I definately don't want to frighten anyone into

not taking the warfarin as directed. Just too much familiararity with the

subject on my part.

Warfarin (coumadin) was (is still) used for killing mice/rats due to it's

blood thinning effects ... in LARGE doses it causes internal hemorrhaging ie

dead rodents! The benefit of this drug is that in CONTROLLED doses, it thins

the blood just enough to prevent those nasty clots that can cause us humans

problems.

I in NO WAY want to scare anyone. Whomever is taking warfarin is monitored

closely to keep their INR (how thin the blood is) within a certain range (2-3

for a-fibbers). This is FAR from a toxic dose.

Sorry to anyone I've frightened. I prescribe warfarin to anyone who meets

the AHA/ACC guidelines without hesitation. I'll not refer to it as rat poison

again

.....!

john_s2385@...> wrote:

:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

so called blood thinners.

I must admit that I read all your postings here with great interest

because you deal not only with your own Afib problems, but with all

sorts of cardio related troubles every day. And, I must admit to

calling warfarin 'rat poison' myself, on occasion. But at least I

have an historical reason. I'm now nearly 70. When I was a tyke

my grandmother who lived on a farm raised chickens. To control the

rats that were a constant problem to anybody who raised poultry, she

showed me the large can of warfarin with the skull and crossbones on

it and warned me of the dangers of it. To her it was a miracle drug.

It was so much better than the old poisons like strychnine because

the rats avoided it and if they did eat it they would crawl away to

die and stink up the place.

Warfarin could be left out and even mixed with chicken feed because

chickens didn't digest and absorb it like mammals (rats). The rats

that ate the warfarin would usually die out in the open where they

could easily be picked up and disposed of properly. That's why

warfarin became so popular as a rat poison and the use of extremely

deadly alternatives was kept to a minimum.

Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

that you don't interfere with that relationship.

Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

S.

>

> They are one in the same...one's a brand name. It's all rat poison!

> ....christine

Web Page - http://www.afibsupport.comhttp://www.afibsupport.com/>

List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be

acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

[Guest guest]

- I have asked the same thing myself on this site several weeks

ago - to please stop calling it rat poison. It does not help those of

us who are on it and are anxious about warfaring and a fib already.

We know that it is used in rat poison. For us it is not rat poison

but a potential life-saver. Nobody wants to take this. Nobody wants

a fib. And nobody wants the anxiety of swallowing those pills and

thinking of them as rat poison. Phyllis

>

> :

>

> I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

> the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

> to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

> but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

> more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

> qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

> readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

> warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

> so called blood thinners.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello!

I use the term " thin the blood " as a simplified, generic description. It is an

anticoagulant (works by inhibiting vitamin K -dependent activation of clotting

factors II, VII, IX and X which are formed in the liver). I agree that you

should be on warfarin, from what you describe.

...christine

Fred Tautenhahn fmt@...> wrote:

Hi ,

Just to make sure that nobody is given misleading information, Coumadin

(warfarin) actually does not " thin " the blood. The compound changes the

coagulating properties so that it takes longer for the blood to clot. Hence the

Pro-Time testing (converted to INR readings). Most EP's feel a range between 2.0

- 3.0 for A-Fib is acceptable.

I just had a long time employee's husband (51) diagnosed with A-Fib and his

Doctor gave him a prescription for Coumadin. Before he had the prescription

filled yesterday, one of his co-workers scared him with the " rat-poison " story.

My employee asked me to talk to her husband and explain about the " story. " I am

not 100% sure that my reassuring information convinced him that the alternative

to not taking Coumadin is a very real risk (stroke). He should be joining our

group soon I hope.

I will never forget my original diagnosis about 5 years ago when my Doctor said

(there is good news and Bad news about your A-Fib) you won't die from A-Fib, but

you can die from a stroke. After his very thorough explanation, it was pretty

clear that I did not have a reasonable option at that point, so I went on

Coumadin right away.

After trying many meds and cardio versions, with limited success, I finally had

a PVI a year ago. A-Fib was gone until about a week ago, this time around the

symptoms are less troublesome and infrequent, however, as a precaution, I am

back on Coumadin until we (2- EP's and a very involved me) decide on the next

course of action. I have no qualms about going in for another PVI/PVA procedure,

especially since Dr. Natale is my EP surgeon and my primary EP is very good and

local.

At 70 years old and comparing my health (A-Fib only) with some of my friends, I

feel that I am the lucky one believe it or not. Sooner or later, I feel

confident that this A-Fib will be silenced once and for all.

I keep all my " emotions " on the positive side of the ledger, there is no other

way to do it, just believe it, it will be the best medicine you will ever take!!

Sincerely,

Fred T. (Northern California)

Re: Re: Old Afibbers and Warfarin /TRYING TO DECIDE

Hi ,

No, I'm not that thin-skinned that I would be offended by your comments!! I

take what you say seriously. I definately don't want to frighten anyone into

not taking the warfarin as directed. Just too much familiararity with the

subject on my part.

Warfarin (coumadin) was (is still) used for killing mice/rats due to it's

blood thinning effects ... in LARGE doses it causes internal hemorrhaging ie

dead rodents! The benefit of this drug is that in CONTROLLED doses, it thins

the blood just enough to prevent those nasty clots that can cause us humans

problems.

I in NO WAY want to scare anyone. Whomever is taking warfarin is monitored

closely to keep their INR (how thin the blood is) within a certain range (2-3

for a-fibbers). This is FAR from a toxic dose.

Sorry to anyone I've frightened. I prescribe warfarin to anyone who meets

the AHA/ACC guidelines without hesitation. I'll not refer to it as rat poison

again

.....!

john_s2385@...> wrote:

:

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, BUT continuing to use

the term " rat poison " when referring to warfarin is a disservice

to the thousands of readers in this group. You may not realize it,

but your being a PA in cardiology gives your posts a great deal

more impact here than 95 percent of the other responders. Without

qualifying your personal opinions as such, you may be causing a few

readers to countermand their own doctors directions and stop using

warfarin and go back to taking aspirin or other 'over-the-counter',

so called blood thinners.

I must admit that I read all your postings here with great interest

because you deal not only with your own Afib problems, but with all

sorts of cardio related troubles every day. And, I must admit to

calling warfarin 'rat poison' myself, on occasion. But at least I

have an historical reason. I'm now nearly 70. When I was a tyke

my grandmother who lived on a farm raised chickens. To control the

rats that were a constant problem to anybody who raised poultry, she

showed me the large can of warfarin with the skull and crossbones on

it and warned me of the dangers of it. To her it was a miracle drug.

It was so much better than the old poisons like strychnine because

the rats avoided it and if they did eat it they would crawl away to

die and stink up the place.

Warfarin could be left out and even mixed with chicken feed because

chickens didn't digest and absorb it like mammals (rats). The rats

that ate the warfarin would usually die out in the open where they

could easily be picked up and disposed of properly. That's why

warfarin became so popular as a rat poison and the use of extremely

deadly alternatives was kept to a minimum.

Sure, warfarin has side effects just like almost all other drugs.

But, you will have to agree, there is always a risk/benefit

decision to be made by the attending physican. Just be careful

that you don't interfere with that relationship.

Now I'm ready to take any slings and arrows you wish to fling at me

for pointing this out to you. Nothing brings more interest to a

group like this than a good, respectable disagreement. ;-)

S.

>

> They are one in the same...one's a brand name. It's all rat poison!

> ....christine

Web Page - http://www.afibsupport.comhttp://www.afibsupport.com/>

List owner: AFIBsupport-owner

For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email,

send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help

Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be

acted upon without consultation with one's physician.

[Guest guest]

Every medication and treatment has potential benefits and risks.

Deciding whether to take a given medication requires a careful

balancing of the benefits and risks. For coumadin, the

benefit is reduction in the risk of a stroke. The risks include

the possiblility of an internal bleed. The decision is very

dependent on each patient's situation.

In my case, my AFib was infrequent and of short duration and very

symptomatic, i.e. I knew instantly when it started. My cardiologist

prescribed Rythmol as a " pill-in-the pocket " to be taken when the

AFib started. In no case, over a period of about 7 years, did

Rythmol fail to restore me to sinus rhythm within 12 hours.

Usually it was 3-4 hours. My doctor's instructions were to start the

Rythmol and then call him if I failed to convert after 48 hours to

see what we'd do next. I interpreted this to mean we'd be starting

coumadin, etc. But it never happened. So....on the benefit side,

the potential for a benefit was quite small because my risk of stroke

was not significantly elevated.

On the risk side, I engage is several sports where I get some pretty

good thumps and falls, such as downhill skiing, motorcycling and

aerobatic flying. It seemed to me that coumadin had the potential

for greatly aggravating the consequences of a fall or even causing

loss of consciousness while doing something like an outside loop

where the g forces try to cram all your blood into your head. I've

also noted that some doctors are now recommending coumadin not be

used in older patients that may have balance disturbances because of

the risk of falling. I'm not that old (64) but the risk due to falls

is noted.

So.....I decided that coumadin was not for me. If my AFib had

worsened, then I would have had to rethink it. However, that's all

in the past now as I had a very successful Wolf Mini-Maze 10 months

ago and have had no AFib since then. Dr. Wolf removed my LAA during

the procedure so that even if the AFib comes back, my stroke risk

will remain small.

As usual, your mileage may vary.

Klein

>

> - I have asked the same thing myself on this site several weeks

> ago - to please stop calling it rat poison. It does not help those

of

> us who are on it and are anxious about warfaring and a fib already.

> We know that it is used in rat poison. For us it is not rat poison

> but a potential life-saver. Nobody wants to take this. Nobody

wants

> a fib. And nobody wants the anxiety of swallowing those pills and

> thinking of them as rat poison. Phyllis