a bit of resentment

[Guest guest]

I have been thinking about this tonight.

I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

[Guest guest]

>I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted throwing spirituality at

something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

Your on fire tonight Llill1! There's so much I'd like to respond to in your

posts but I'm feeling sleepy. So just this one bit for now...I only briefly got

involved in 12-step and I think the asking for forgiveness/amends part did make

me uneasy. I have done some wrongs toward my FOO, in the name of my own

defense, but there were times I overcompensated. But if I were to apologize and

amend about it, they'd use it to simply get even *more* out of me than they

already are while refusing to accept any blame for their part in anything, ever.

I'm guessing you had something like that? Maybe with unsafe people the best

thing is to come clean to a safe third party and make amends by donating or

volunteering somewhere.

Eliza

[Guest guest]

HI

I can totally relate to what you say. I have been in 12 step groups for a number

of years and the relentless focus on `looking at your part', or sayings such as

`when one finger is pointed at someone else, there is three pointing back at

you' used to get to me. I looked at looked and looked at my part. I did the

steps and no matter what I got no joy, no relief with regards to my relationship

with nada. I couldn't bear to make amends to nada as I knew it would be used as

ammunition against me and used to feel guilty about this. I'd hear of others in

12 step groups being reunited with families after they cleaned up, but none of

that happened with me. I used to wonder if nada even noticed I was in recovery.

(She did, but only to complement herself of how it was down to her I stopped my

addictive behavior- hah!)

Over the last year, I have decided that 12 step groups are good for whatever

addictive behavior they are targeting (eg. Alcohol, drugs etc) and getting a

straight enough head to start tackling some of the consequences and put the

basics of my life together after my addictive behavior. But when it comes to

abusive childhoods/ PD parents, in my view they are pretty useless.

I still continue to go to 12 step groups, but realize that issues with nada are

not something that these groups are helpful in dealing with. I do that with T,

this board and close friends.

Nav

x

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

[Guest guest]

It sounds like this is backwards - they should be making amends to you not

the other way around!!! If I remember right, you say sorry to the people YOU

have wronged, not the ones who have done wrong by you.

I don't think you need to do this step regarding your FOO at all!

> **

>

>

> HI

> I can totally relate to what you say. I have been in 12 step groups for a

> number of years and the relentless focus on `looking at your part', or

> sayings such as `when one finger is pointed at someone else, there is three

> pointing back at you' used to get to me. I looked at looked and looked at my

> part. I did the steps and no matter what I got no joy, no relief with

> regards to my relationship with nada. I couldn't bear to make amends to nada

> as I knew it would be used as ammunition against me and used to feel guilty

> about this. I'd hear of others in 12 step groups being reunited with

> families after they cleaned up, but none of that happened with me. I used to

> wonder if nada even noticed I was in recovery. (She did, but only to

> complement herself of how it was down to her I stopped my addictive

> behavior- hah!)

> Over the last year, I have decided that 12 step groups are good for

> whatever addictive behavior they are targeting (eg. Alcohol, drugs etc) and

> getting a straight enough head to start tackling some of the consequences

> and put the basics of my life together after my addictive behavior. But when

> it comes to abusive childhoods/ PD parents, in my view they are pretty

> useless.

> I still continue to go to 12 step groups, but realize that issues with nada

> are not something that these groups are helpful in dealing with. I do that

> with T, this board and close friends.

>

> Nav

> x

>

>

>

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

> disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

> Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have

> me 'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped'

> again. I may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always

> taught me to look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the

> surface, and that led me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies

> at the candle. And I got burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever

> tell me the truth? To stay the hell away from these people, that they were

> toxic to my spirit and wanted to destroy my self-esteem and any self-love

> that I had. And would do just that (and have, essentially) if given the

> chance. The party line is the addiction ruins family relationships and those

> heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if those people are lunatics.

> I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted throwing spirituality at

> something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Me, I have never understood the whole concept of making the victim feel

responsible for her own victimization, particularly when its so blatantly,

screamingly obvious that a child has NO control over how her parent treats her.

It is the antithesis of logic, and I can't relate to programs or therapy that do

not recognize power-imbalance situations.

-Annie

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

[Guest guest]

inadvertently you hit upon the crux of the issue.

Over and over again I would make amends. I was attacked pretty much daily by my

father and my mother is non-supportive and covert. Neither takes responsibility

for anything they do. So that would smooth out our relationship again, I would

get attacked again, I would react (badly or humanly, whichever). Then I would

find myself making another amend. And eventually they are lapping it up, because

they get to continue abusing you ad nauseum, and YOU have to keep apologizing.

Repressed guilt is a huge trigger into addiction for addicts. I understand the

point of making the amenD, no plural. But people need to be realistic about the

nature of those familial relationships instead of spiritualizing dysfunction I

think, in other words not be afraid to tell new twelve steppers it's okay to

stay the hell away from lunatics.

Plus the lack of validation is another low point, all the 'quit whining' crap

when you desperately need validation because you have never had it, is useless,

it's adding insult to injury. My therapist is really, really good at this

because she is focused on change and results, i.e. 'I validate your feelings,

and this is what we are going to do to make it different.'

I guess that's why I keep getting drawn back here, because this board is

soooooooooo ACTION oriented. People encourage change in the relationships, in

setting boundaries and limits, in hanging up and/or walking away, in going LC

and NC, etc.

> > >

> > > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> > >

> > > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

> > disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

> > Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have

> > me 'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped'

> > again. I may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always

> > taught me to look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the

> > surface, and that led me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies

> > at the candle. And I got burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever

> > tell me the truth? To stay the hell away from these people, that they were

> > toxic to my spirit and wanted to destroy my self-esteem and any self-love

> > that I had. And would do just that (and have, essentially) if given the

> > chance. The party line is the addiction ruins family relationships and those

> > heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if those people are lunatics.

> > I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted throwing spirituality at

> > something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

as usual Annie you have a great talent for getting to the meat of the arguement,

" power=imbalance " is the best word for it. Wow.

I wrote recently, I can't even remember whether it was here or in my journal,

that the spiritual tactics that I had put into practice or been encouraged to

put into practice, seemed tailor-made for someone who was powerless in the

situation. " Just pray " , etc. I recently encountered this big time after trying

to go back to AA and mentioning my nephew's mistreatment by my sister in law and

got hit with the 'just pray' crap and one woman even blatantly told me it wasn't

'my place to tell anyone else how to live' and that her mother probably didn't

like it either when she found her passed out on the couch drunk with kids

playing on the floor'. I felt like telling her that if your mother had called

cps you might have gotten your shit together sooner...but since her mother never

intervened, she felt no one should ever intervene. I have intervened to the

point that I have done all I can do, every day is a new opportunity and

challenge, but I went back hoping for support and was met with what I realize

now is a whole bunch of dysfunctional avoidant codependent garbage, especially

when it comes to a dire situation like this. The lady actually said, " I want to

be happy joyous and free " as to why she didn't intervene with her own

daughter...I was sitting there thinking, 'are you effing kidding me, how do you

sleep at night... "

I actaully have to go watch my nephew right now other wise I'd write more, I

will later, thanks annie and everyone for responding and for the validation, it

helps tremendously.

Annie just one more thing I think 12 step actually acts to LEGITIMIZE the power

imbalance and the abuse that occurs in it when it is avoidant like this, and

tried to appear to 'level out' the imbalance throughthe 8th and 9th step. If I

can look only at myself and make those amends that give me such a rush and a

natural high (anyone who hasn't experienced it should try it, it can be almost

addictive), then I NEVER have to deal with the trauma in my life and I just bury

(re-cover) it in the past again. What happens in a lot of cases is that people

switch addictions, to food, which has been a problem of mine, or sex, or

shoplifting, or bullimia, or god knows what else, I have seen it a million

times.

I also want to add alot of the trouble I'm encountering is just regional because

I have been to great groups and unfortunately this area is just a bummer and

very unenlightened recovery wise. More and more recovery 12 step wise moves to

dealing with trauma and not being threatened buy it.

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm glad for you that you're not accepting a group dynamic that says in effect:

" You as a child were responsible for your parents abusing you, and you as an

adult have no business intervening when you observe a child being abused. " That

is exactly 180 degrees opposite of what *I* think is rational and valid.

So, I'm resonating with your observation that such an opinion is " dysfunctional

avoidant codependent garbage " and I would add the word " delusional " in there as

well. And maybe " insane " and " sadistic " also.

I wouldn't stay in such a group either.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> > >

> > > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi llel, I know we've also broached this subject a bit in our previous exchange,

as well. You've hit on such an important theme! One huge problem, in my

opinion, is the failure of a widespread, public comprehension/acknowledgement,

that BPDs and NPDs actually WANT to harm their family members (or others

vulnerable to them). Their intent is to harm. Their compulsive addiction, is

to *harm. And a failure to see and judge their actions through this lens is

creating a world of hurt for all those entangled with them.

One big problem is that BPDs and NPDs are geniuses at 'masking' their abuse.

Part of their disorder is that they need to get the high of inflicting the

abuse, but they need to be able to deny they are doing it to their conscious

self, and all those around them. This need for denial is life and death.

Combine that with a culture that entirely resists intruding into

parenting/family relationships, and with a widespread ignorance of the *very

complicated ways that bpd manifests, and you've got your 12 step people. Who

say, 'man up', 'it's your fault', 'don't be a victim!', without any real

understanding of trauma, captivity, or the actual harm inflicted by Cluster Bs.

(Especially Cluster Bs like the ones I've known, who are either child molesters

or batterers).

I hope that in this lifetime I'll have somekindof meaningful opportunity to

change this. Once you've figured out the BPD dance, it's not that difficult to

sort out how and why the abuse against their children is *actually occuring.

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

[Guest guest]

thanks so much for this post, it is very profound.

I have never thought about the PD behavior in terms of addiction and a

compulsive need to inflict harm. That is a really astounding analysis. I know

for a fact my father has this, my mother is much more subtle, but more and more

I am coming out of my denial about how similiar her behavior is to that of her

alcoholic father. I do beleive in repetition compulsion which is just about the

identical concept to what you are talking about. It almost seems to me sometimes

like it is a battle of two selves fighting for survival with the PD parent and

child, and many times the PD parent's 'self' wins this battle and the compulsion

to repeat the abusive behaviors lives on in the child's hijacked self. The

battle is ongoing because either the child repeats the behaviors of the abusive

parent, or the child begins to remember it's own self and the trauma that

happened to it. Which the child must ward off at ALL cost because the child is

under the assumption that re-experienceing life threatening trauma means facing

death again, what it means is that the experience will be *like* facing death,

and the child goes to any lengths to not experience that. The ONLY other

alternative is to take on the persona of the other person present at the time of

the trauma and re-enact their behaviors. I am convinced beyond a shadow of a

doubt that this is the impetus behind child molestation, as well as rape

possibly. Very little if anything will force a person to re-enact the experience

of an almost deadly trauma, and if this trauma occurs before the child can speak

or while the child is speaking but unable to articulate the depth of their

terror and humiliation, and there is no sympathetic adult around for the child

to be able to feel empathy from, it becomes locked inside and the world may end

up welcoming another predator.

I suspect that this is the reason twelve step, namely AA or old school AA wards

off any acknowledgement about child-hood trauma and it's effects, because when

it was founded, the (mainly men) who were it's members were probably

traumatized as children and some may have re-enacted the trauma and victimized

their own children, other children, etc. Making this connection because my main

predators were both alcoholics. So they didn't get anywhere near analysis of

this or allow it anyone else, they actively warded it off. I do think the

organization has helped a lot of people, it got me sober, but I know I went ten

years kind of swimming on the surface not being able to really reconcile my

demons and when I would try to effect change the compulsion would just move to

another behavior. Like, I'd never been battered before getting sober but in

recovery had two abusive relationships. A friend of mine got sober from a severe

IV cocaine addiction only to become severely bulimic and exercise addicted. Etc,

etc, etc.

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

thanks for that very succinct post, 'useless' is very accurate I think.

I believe upon first getting sober they can be very helpful because intially

they clear up alot of that junk inside us because of things we have done that

reinforces our family dialogue. They allow us to make amends so that there is no

longer inside us a dialogue that supports the family slogan of 'yes, you are the

bad one, you are awful, you are rotten to the core'. Going through the steps

helps lift that burden to where all of a sudden you feel like a worthy human

being.

And like you said, where they fail is in the familial relationships that are

sick, abusive, and hopeless. And the relationships that are parental or

authoritative in some way continue to damage us because those voices we listened

to and interpreted as fact as children. They are the voice of god essentially,

and those voices are in our heads and resonate so strongly it's hard to separate

them out from our own.

So I agree that it's healthy to compartmentalize a bit and separate things out

so that I don't end up making myself a target to hear a bunch of unenlightened

b.s. like I did recently going in and just splaying my guts out for all to see.

There are certain topics that I am incapable of keeping a boundary with...there

is no 'suck it up' for me when I share about certain things, because i am

sharing at the level and probably age when it happened, since as my therapist

pointed out, there was NEVER any validation from anyone about the trauma or its

effects. So I am not going to continue to take my five or six year old self into

those meetings to be abused by a bunch of trauma avoidant adults. I mean, I am

happy for those folks that they can stuff but I can't. This has never really

been an issue for me until this situation with my nephews developed and now it's

like I just about want to murder anyone who even comes close to intimating that

the proper course of action is to look the other way or throw spirituality at

this in order to do mental gymnastis so *I* feel better about it...because that

is not helping my nephews. It is what it is, and I need to grieve it. I have *a

lot* of grief around them and what their lives are going to be like and how they

will probably suffer because of this womans frightening lack of empathy for her

children. I do tend to torture myself with scenarios like 'what will happen when

they are seven years old and get sick with the flu and have to stay home and she

doesn't care about them and won't care for them', that kind of thing, that I

know spiritual practices like prayer and meditation can help. I have been up one

side of her and down the other several times and I am NOT making amends to her

because although my speech was course and probably abusive because I was so

angry, in principle I was right and she needs to know that there is SOMEONE on

this earth who is going to call her on her b.s. when it comes to the kids, and I

am not smoothing that out and ruining it with an amend of 'I'm sorry I called

you 'the filthiest person on the planet' or said you 'lie your @ss off all day

ever day' or what have you. I am actually getting mad just thinking about it so

I guess I will switch gears.

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

that is really a wonderful suggestion, I know people who have done that with

people who have passed on, but not people who are still living. but it makes

total sense because at a certain point, when the relationship generates only

abuse, the relationship is dead, essentially. I like this idea very much. The

problem for me is that when I do react badly and make those amends, it smoothes

over the relationship and then it only sets me up to get hurt again. Sometimes

those relationships need to remain rocky. Sometimes the safest distance is far

away. Sometimes, tension is a safety feature that keeps me from venturing into

the mine field again. I was using amends to defray tension that inevitably came

about as a result of abuse and my very human reaction to it. So I embrace the

thought that amends can be made in other ways than interacting in that way with

an abusive person and smoothing out tension that perhaps can protect me if I

leave it be. It reminds me of the blackberry bushes that line the sides of the

driveway here, which is actually an earthen damn you have to drive across. If

you go off the side, they are thick enough to keep your car from rolling down to

the bottom of the hill, but you aren't going to go into them willingly because

of the thorns. They have been cut back before, and it's frightening how narrow

the damn is and how steep on both sides it seems without them.

> >I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted throwing spirituality at

something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

> Your on fire tonight Llill1! There's so much I'd like to respond to in your

posts but I'm feeling sleepy. So just this one bit for now...I only briefly got

involved in 12-step and I think the asking for forgiveness/amends part did make

me uneasy. I have done some wrongs toward my FOO, in the name of my own

defense, but there were times I overcompensated. But if I were to apologize and

amend about it, they'd use it to simply get even *more* out of me than they

already are while refusing to accept any blame for their part in anything, ever.

I'm guessing you had something like that? Maybe with unsafe people the best

thing is to come clean to a safe third party and make amends by donating or

volunteering somewhere.

>

> Eliza

>

[Guest guest]

charlotte,

Your words are an inspiration to us all. You are so right. We as children were

trapped, we had nowhere to go, no money, no independence, and we had to be

forced into apologizing and laying our lives on the ground to be trampled on and

hope we had a chance when we grew up to get away. I know that feeling very well.

I was almost prevented from going to college, had it not been for my Dad who

actually put his foot down for once. And because of that, we are safe. But I

sometimes think of leaving the country JUST TO GET AWAY FROM HER PHYSICALLY.

> Hi llel, I know we've also broached this subject a bit in our previous

exchange, as well. You've hit on such an important theme! One huge problem, in

my opinion, is the failure of a widespread, public

comprehension/acknowledgement, that BPDs and NPDs actually WANT to harm their

family members (or others vulnerable to them). Their intent is to harm. Their

compulsive addiction, is to *harm. And a failure to see and judge their actions

through this lens is creating a world of hurt for all those entangled with them.

>

> One big problem is that BPDs and NPDs are geniuses at 'masking' their abuse.

Part of their disorder is that they need to get the high of inflicting the

abuse, but they need to be able to deny they are doing it to their conscious

self, and all those around them. This need for denial is life and death. Combine

that with a culture that entirely resists intruding into parenting/family

relationships, and with a widespread ignorance of the *very complicated ways

that bpd manifests, and you've got your 12 step people. Who say, 'man up', 'it's

your fault', 'don't be a victim!', without any real understanding of trauma,

captivity, or the actual harm inflicted by Cluster Bs. (Especially Cluster Bs

like the ones I've known, who are either child molesters or batterers).

>

> I hope that in this lifetime I'll have somekindof meaningful opportunity to

change this. Once you've figured out the BPD dance, it's not that difficult to

sort out how and why the abuse against their children is *actually occuring.

>

>

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was in Alanon for awile and I experienced the same sort of feelings. It is

difficult becuase although their is step work on forgiveness and making amends

which can be good for your own soul and healing, done with certain folks, i.e.

the addicts in my life I found I had to be careful becuase it could be used to

manipulate me back into an unhealthy situation.

My sponsor at that time told me that I didn't have to make amends with that

person in person I could do it in other ways and I did. Also, I learned that

just becuase i was on a healing path I had to learn to accept that my mother was

not and it was best to stay away. I know how hard it can be becuase we have a

longing for family but when they are toxic what else can you do....in the end it

becomes a matter of survival...will it be you or them. The choice is hard but

in the end I choose to save myself and walk away. It is sad that the people who

are supposed to love us are the ones hurting us.

I do know now that i can't make anyone change and i can't make anyone want help

or seek therapy. It was the most devastating and yet freeing realization. My

mother still drinks non stop. I can't save her or change her but I have made

great strides in freeing myself from it's toxic grip.

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

[Guest guest]

I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA, I

tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my

first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really

did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where

she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my mom,

even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I only see

this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let her

mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think for

oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of exactly

WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes folks can

tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program, just work it.

I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is information for

you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating it. I believe

too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can, in my public

shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and really are not

the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I hate to see such

people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like sheep.

The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are in

damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon fellowship

that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have hurt,

because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound begun

by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional homes

that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to make

an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would say,

NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to myself

for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that direct

amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of bad

situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

Best,

[Guest guest]

I'm feeling kind of dense because I'm still not even partially understanding the

concept of the victim of abuse making amends to their abuser, particularly in

the case of an extreme imbalance of power, such as a child who has endured a

lifetime of emotional abuse, physical abuse (or worse) by their own parent(s).

It only makes sense to me for the *perpetrators* of abuse to attend these type

of " Anonymous " programs, not their victims!

What can the victim possibly say to their abuser that doesn't sound like utter

nonsense: " I'm sorry my face got in the way of your fist. " " I apologize that my

mere existence caused you to molest me. " " I take responsibility: I forced you to

parent me against your will, please forgive me " (?!?)

Ack!! I agree with you, such programs can be re-traumatizing and

counter-productive for the victims of abuse.

-Annie

>

> I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA, I

tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my

first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really

did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where

she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

>

> My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my mom,

even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I only see

this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let her

mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

>

> I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think for

oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of exactly

WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes folks can

tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program, just work it.

I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is information for

you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating it. I believe

too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can, in my public

shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and really are not

the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I hate to see such

people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like sheep.

>

> The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are in

damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

>

> I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon fellowship

that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have hurt,

because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound begun

by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional homes

that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to make

an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

>

> I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

>

> If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would say,

NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to myself

for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that direct

amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of bad

situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

>

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good for you ! I completely agree! We need to heal ourselves, help

ourselves, not help our Moms only to get slapped in the face again! We

definitely have to save ourselves from getting sucked back in all over again!

N

> I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA, I

tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my first

amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really did not

make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where she

thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

>

> My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my mom,

even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I only see

this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let her

mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

>

> I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think for

oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of exactly

WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes folks can

tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program, just work it.

I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is information for

you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating it. I believe

too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can, in my public

shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and really are not

the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I hate to see such

people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like sheep.

>

> The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are in

damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

>

> I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon fellowship

that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have hurt,

because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound begun

by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional homes

that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to make

an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

>

> I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

>

> If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would say,

NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to myself

for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that direct

amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of bad

situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with you Annie, and

N

> I'm feeling kind of dense because I'm still not even partially understanding

the concept of the victim of abuse making amends to their abuser, particularly

in the case of an extreme imbalance of power, such as a child who has endured a

lifetime of emotional abuse, physical abuse (or worse) by their own parent(s).

>

> It only makes sense to me for the *perpetrators* of abuse to attend these type

of " Anonymous " programs, not their victims!

>

> What can the victim possibly say to their abuser that doesn't sound like utter

nonsense: " I'm sorry my face got in the way of your fist. " " I apologize that my

mere existence caused you to molest me. " " I take responsibility: I forced you to

parent me against your will, please forgive me " (?!?)

>

> Ack!! I agree with you, such programs can be re-traumatizing and

counter-productive for the victims of abuse.

>

> -Annie

>

>

[Guest guest]

great post, victoria, thanks for sharing that. I really lucked out tremendously

when I came into AA when I was in my early twenties. three of my sponsors were

MSWs so they knew about trauma and I was never really confronted with thumpers

but this recent interlude into 12 step again has been really not helpful, mainly

because I am in this really primal pain because of my nephews and 12 step can't

deal with it and that's just that. Honestly I'm surprised I didn't punch anyone,

with some of the things that have been said to me. It's just a regional thing,

I've had it much better elsewhere.

The thing about being in a meeting is it gets really quiet and when that happens

my pain would just rise right up to the surface and come out in my share.

unfortunatley when I am open in that way I don't have any kind of filter and

things people say penetrate without much resistance. and I don't need anymore

pain right now.

it's just been disillusioning. I honestly don't want to do any amends right now.

I don't want to until I have left this environment and been gone for at least

six months, long enough for my head to clear.

>

> I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA, I

tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my

first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really

did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where

she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

>

> My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my mom,

even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I only see

this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let her

mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

>

> I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think for

oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of exactly

WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes folks can

tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program, just work it.

I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is information for

you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating it. I believe

too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can, in my public

shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and really are not

the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I hate to see such

people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like sheep.

>

> The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are in

damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

>

> I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon fellowship

that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have hurt,

because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound begun

by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional homes

that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to make

an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

>

> I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

>

> If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would say,

NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to myself

for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that direct

amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of bad

situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

>

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

you are right, it really does get confusing. ideally there is supposed to be a

sponsor who sits down with the member and goes over their 8th step list with

them and says yea or nay to each amend.

this person is supposed to be wise enough to detect what amends need to be made.

the problem for addicts and I have experienced this personally is that guilt

incites the obsession/compulsion to use. there is wisdom in the tenth step where

it says 'continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly

admitted it'. in my opinion it's sometimes guilt whether real or misplaced that

triggers obsession/compulsion to reoccur and sometimes relapse. what the 'A'

groups don't openly admit is that they can't deal with trauma and that trauma is

at least as much responsible for people relapsing or switching addictions or

remaining obsessive compulsive in recovery. not that 12 step is equipped to deal

with those issues, because they are not qualified, as my recent experience and

all the looney crap I got thrown at me in my recent foray back into AA

demonstrated. Ironically most of the wisest people are the ones that don't say

anything in meetings and listen more than they talk, but they aren't the ones

that are going to say twisted crap, so sometimes it's caveat emptor.

I used to hear early on the slogan which is partially a joke, that an alcoholic

is an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. actually that is a perfect

description of NPD. I think many addicts were pathologized as children and when

you are always wrong and breathe wrong you lose connection with the fact that

there are times that you are legitimately wrong. You live in a state of addicted

suspension, using or drinking to cover *any* uncomfortable emotion. Ideally in

'A' groups, a sponsor begins to help you sort out when you are wrong...and bring

you into the land normal people live in, between the pathologized hell of a

dysfunctional childhood, and the compensated state of an addicted adulthood

where one is never wrong...that's the in-between territory addicts miss

completely.

Sorry to go on and on, Annie, I am just sorting this out in my own head. I

didn't mean for the discussion to focus primarily on amends...I am not doing

them anymore to my dad...I'd be doing them every day, charlottehoneychurch

helped me tremendously by saying that PD parents have a " compulsive need' to

hurt us, I have been repeating that like a mantra the past few days...put that

way it makes no sense whatsoever to stay in the relationship or maintain any

contact whatsoever with the person, period.

I also am so grateful about what you wrote about the 'power imbalance'...because

it is so easy to lose sight of those in adulthood and judge ourselves overly

harshly forgetting we were children. I acted out because of my trauma and harmed

others, those are legitimate amends that I have made. Some I have peace with and

others I probably never will.

I have much more trouble with the incessant harping about 'forgiveness' in 12

step and other spiritual settings, than 9th step amends in programs. But both of

these together can be retraumatizing like you said. I realllllllly can't stand

the focus on forgiveness in treatment programs like on Dr. Drew and stuff (celeb

rehab), in my opinion that is utter bullsh*t that someone is 12 days clean and

has not processed ANY of their very complex and deep emotions about their

trauma, which sometimes takes years if not DECADES to do, if it is even EVER

complete, and you are actually going to sit there and tell them if they don't

forgive, at 2 weeks clean, they won't stay sober??? What an utter crock of sh*t

and make no mistake, they are talking about crimes of rape/sexual abuse/child

abandonment/child battery, on and on and on. I just don't buy it. I think it's

recipe for disaster that someone is just getting the haze out of their brain and

hold on because the real pain hasn't even hit yet, and then when it does, now

they have to feel GUILTY because why are they having this rage and terror and

all those overwhelming delayed reactions to trauma, when they supposedly already

processed it all and forgave it, in treatment...of course by my tone it's

obvious this one really gets me stirred up.

I don't think *I* legitimately can affect the karma of someone who has chosen as

an adult to perpetrate sexual abuse against a child. Other acts, also, carry

great karmic impact that I believe only God or some higher power unknown to me,

can deal with. I don't believe any loving God would EVER expect me to forgive a

crime like that because I believe only and omnipotent force like god is

empowered enough thusly to do so. I am judgemental I freely admit and I can

usually find the lingering compulsive addictive behaviors in the people who harp

the loudest about forgiveness (at others I mean...so as not to be misunderstood,

I mean at people who are uncomfortable with overzealous compulsory forgiveness

of everything.) All that loving force would want me to do is survive it without

self-destructing. The crime and the criminal are God's problem to sort out. This

is my firm belief and anyone who wants to tell me otherwise...well, I just don't

want to hear it. I get that angry about this. I think it's a pow-wow between

that person, their higher self, and their God, whenever they pass on from this

earth, and that includes Personality Disordered parents who torment their

children. My only responsibility is to process through the genuine emotional

responses I have had as a child that I might have stuffed down, and move forward

and live my life in a healthy, self-loving and respecting fashion.

> >

> > I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA, I

tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my

first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really

did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where

she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

> >

> > My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my

mom, even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I

only see this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let

her mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

> >

> > I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think for

oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of exactly

WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes folks can

tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program, just work it.

I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is information for

you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating it. I believe

too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can, in my public

shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and really are not

the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I hate to see such

people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like sheep.

> >

> > The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are in

damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

> >

> > I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon

fellowship that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have

hurt, because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound

begun by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional

homes that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to

make an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

> >

> > I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

> >

> > If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would

say, NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to

myself for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that

direct amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of

bad situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

> >

> >

> > Best,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

We each have to find something that will work for us, individually. If the

12-step programs work for a lot of people, then, that's wonderful. I'm for

anything that helps.

I guess that for myself, I would not view a 12-step " Anonymous " program as a

place for me to work through unprocessed emotional trauma. For me, it would be

like going to a dentist when I'm having a heart attack; that's not the right

specialist.

If I understand correctly, the 12-step programs are about overcoming addictions.

And while its a good thing to overcome self-destructive behaviors like addiction

to alcohol or drugs or food or whatever, just dealing with the addiction issue

without understanding that the cause of the addiction is most likely due to

unprocessed trauma from abuse, and that the traumatizing abuse is not only from

the past but is possibly still ongoing... then there is great likelihood of the

addiction recurring because the root cause is still there. Its like, well,

draining the pus out of a boil but not removing the core; the boil will re-form

because the root cause is still there.

A multi-level approach: psychotherapy for the unprocessed, unresolved trauma and

psychological injury, counseling to reassure the abusee that its OK to remove

herself from a chronically abusive relationship (even if the abuser is mother or

father) PLUS addiction treatment in the form of the 12-step program might be the

most effective way to deal with it, for me. My addiction is over-eating.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In EA,

I tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was my

first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies really

did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a place where

she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

> > >

> > > My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to my

mom, even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I

only see this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let

her mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

> > >

> > > I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think

for oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of

exactly WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes

folks can tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program,

just work it. I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is

information for you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating

it. I believe too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can,

in my public shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and

really are not the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I

hate to see such people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like

sheep.

> > >

> > > The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we are

in damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or others.

> > >

> > > I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon

fellowship that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have

hurt, because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound

begun by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional

homes that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to

make an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

> > >

> > > I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

> > >

> > > If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I would

say, NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is to

myself for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think that

direct amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety of

bad situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our healing

must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will create the

opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever again.

Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself and

decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I want

to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

> > >

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I agree, on all levels.

I have addiction to mood altering substances but food came first (and last and

always).

I think there is a largely unspoken problem in that twelve step does 'get'

people clean. It is a 'something' to go to, a presence of people, actual people

in a room. It's a new social group, a new place to go to. A new way to express.

What I see happening is addiction moving, like I expressed with the friend, who

went from cocaine addiction to bulimia and exercise addiction. I have

experienced it, going from alcoholism to severe codependency to exercise

addiction to over-eating, etc...

I think there are an awful lot of sex addicts in 12 step, Bill was one,

or at least there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that.

I think it helps clear out the wrongs people commit when acting out of the pain

that springs from trauma. And you are right, that the core issue has to be

addressed. In one of the very first twelve step meetings I attended a woman came

up to me afterwards and in our conversation said " Sexual abuse is the core issue

behind addiction. "

So the knowledge is there in pockets. But soooooooooo many people are resistant

to that, mainly because they can't deal with their own trauma, or don't even

know about it.

What bothers me is that so many people, when they relapse, are told, 'well you

just didn't work the program hard enough or do the steps right or what have

you'. There is sometimes no real attempt to deal with the very real issues.

There are many renegades out there trying to bring it into the 21 century. For

myself, I just think it's sad, because there are many, many dead bodies along

the way. I can think of many friends and their many different methods of

suicide...it's just a gory, sad list of people who could not take the pain

another day. Or just relapses, because you come to a point sometimes where

despite doing every freaking thing under the sun you are told it sometimes stops

working, or feels like it is not working. And then you are told, well you

didn't work hard enough. And then you have relapsed and lost your entire

identity. And few people are going to want to deal with it, because they are so

frightened it could be them. Well, I am rambling at this point. People are just

so terrified that they will find out this thing that they have used to save

their own life, will not work because someone else fell. Of course they are

going to say 'you didn't do it right'. It's really a shame that there isn't open

acknowledgement of the destruction those early wounds can bring, but people need

so badly to believe there is hope and a cure for addiction. It's a strange

little dynamic, actually, to see twelve step continuing to skirt around these

issues. In some areas...some regions are way more advanced than others.

> > > >

> > > > I have been in Emotions Anonymous and Al-anon for quite some time. In

EA, I tried to do an amends to my nada (before I knew she was a nada). It was

my first amends and it did not go well. I ended up deciding that apologies

really did not make sense with her. They only directed her to a weakness, a

place where she thought she could cultivate guilt all over again.

> > > >

> > > > My first Sponsor did not " get " that I might NOT want to make amends to

my mom, even though she herself was likely the daughter of a borderline mom. (I

only see this in hindsight, actually. She was a great person, but would not let

her mother know about her grandkids or that she had married, even.)

> > > >

> > > > I think the program is a very good framework, but one must really think

for oneself. A lot of times people don't have a very good understanding of

exactly WHY they are doing certain steps before they do them, and sometimes

folks can tell us that we are not supposed to try to understand the program,

just work it. I say phooey. When you smell a fish, you pay attention. It is

information for you that you probably need to take responsibility for not eating

it. I believe too in speaking up about these fish, as diplomatically as I can,

in my public shares. I can often see those people that have been damaged and

really are not the ones that need to make amends to anyone, but themselves. I

hate to see such people hurt for no good reason, following a linear program like

sheep.

> > > >

> > > > The amends step actually reads, made amends to such persons (folks we

are in damaged relationships with) except when to do so would injure them or

others.

> > > >

> > > > I have successfully shared in my EA group, online and in my Al-anon

fellowship that sometimes it is important NOT to make amends to people we have

hurt, because WE are the person who will be hurt by reopening the original wound

begun by the perpetrator. I tell my Sponsees who come from very dysfunctional

homes that they have more choices than making amends. The most important way to

make an amends is to change our own behavior towards ourselves. We can treat

ourselves kindly in the face of disordered people, if we really want to make

amends for those things that we regret, we can choose to share them with a

counselor, a Sponsor, or minister.

> > > >

> > > > I think folks in Alanon get this the best, because they KNOW that some

relationships with alcoholics will never work. The ugly, mean blaming alcoholic

kind of looks like, quacks like and thinks like a BPD. And more folks in Alanon

know this than ever before. I refer to my mom as a dry drunk in our meetings,

and that fits perfectly.

> > > >

> > > > If any Sponsor got ga-ga and doey eyed about my amends to my mom, I

would say, NO, I stand professionally advised that the amends I need to make is

to myself for thinking I could make a difference in the relationship. I think

that direct amends can be made successfully and they work miracles in a variety

of bad situations, but with a borderline parent or a dry drunk, I think our

healing must come first. If the amend is really meant to be made, God will

create the opportunity for me. I ain't going to force the issue with my mom ever

again. Once was enough. Just like a real drunk, she needs to hit bottom herself

and decide that she WANTS help. I am not going to extend her my arm because I

want to make up to her.... and then get pulled into water over my head.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Best,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, work the program by looking at the parts you contribute to. Your addiction,

your codependence. There are always things in ourselves that need work.

Progress, not perfection. 12 step programs are for us to use to live with

ourselves and become less broken, more mature and responsible members of

society. Since it only changes ourselves, it seems a simplistic idea that

dysfunctional family systems would be miraculously healed by just ONE family

member getting help.

I somehow knew intrinsically that I would never, ever make an amends to my nada.

That would have given her more weapons to use against me. Nada is not well

enough to hear my amends in the spirit in which should be meant.

As we all discovered in learning about BPD, some family situations are beyond

simple accountability, apology and forgiveness. Any 12 step group or sponsor

that is unable to understand THAT is NOT SAFE for a KO. Find another group that

is more learned.

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>

[Guest guest]

I am so frustrated with myself reading this. How did you know, that you would

never make amends to her. God bless you, I mean, for NOT doing so, and for

honoring yourself above her. I wish I could have not been so black/white in my

thinking. I don't tend to see the gray areas. I interpret things literally. I

have many signs and symptoms of asperger and that is one of them. I don't know

and probably never will know at this stage if the 'condition' I have was caused

by circumstance or is truly neurological, it's almost impossible to be diagnosed

later in life unless it is severe, because so much compensation has taken place.

I can't filter. Especially not at the level of openness and vulnerability that I

reach in 12 step meetings. And it becomes mental obsession. This is also another

spectrum symptom and after almost 20 years I am still not able to control it.

So, it is wonderful to read the words that groups that don't understand this are

not " safe " for KO's.

I needed that, any validation helps, when up against what I sometimes feel is

the almighty doctrine, which, creepily, is almost identical to the doctrine of

the dysfunctional family: If there is something wrong, there is something wrong

with YOU. That in itself is enough to send me running. I loathe doctrine, having

grown up fundamentalist around multiple perpetrators/religion and pedophilia are

joined at the hip in my mind.

I have been thinking about this thread alot the last few days, wondering how

people have different 'levels' and I don't seem to have those levels. I seem to

only be able to relate on one level, very deep. I have a terrible time with

small talk, chatter, social banter,etc. I think people, well, I know, because I

have witnessed it, that people who have the same problems with 12 step put it on

a less deep level, and get what they can out of it. I don't seem to have those

other levels. It's very strange, to only have the one. It has driven people

around me insane at times. I have a very, very one track mind.

I wish I could figure it out, why I struggle with this so much. It ALL makes

sense in the context of asperger syndrome. And only in that context, in other

parameters I am just beyond weird. I know time and again i have talked to people

like this, putting it at 'another level' and it didn't bother them. I'm thinking

they compartmentalized it. I know that is something I can't really do very well,

if at all. Rambling so I will hush, thanks for the post.

> >

> > I have been thinking about this tonight.

> >

> > I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi there, I haven't read all of the replies but I've done extensive work on my

psyche in the last year and have learned the following. There is a site online

for The Center. It's for adult survivors of child abuse. It's

www.ascasupport.org. On that site somewhere it says that the 12 steps do not

apply to abuse victims; not all of the steps, but some of them. You do not have

to make amends to ill, abusive parents/relatives. All the best to you!

>

> I have been thinking about this tonight.

>

> I have resentment about 12 step work in terms of family with personality

disorder. Does anyone else have this or have had it and worked through it?

Because I realize, that going through step work has had a tendency to have me

'make amends' to family members and draw me in closer to get 'zapped' again. I

may just be trying to lump wasted years onto 12 step, which always taught me to

look at my own behavior. But it calmed the ripples on the surface, and that led

me back into the flame, just like the moth that flies at the candle. And I got

burned again, and again. Why didn't anyone ever tell me the truth? To stay the

hell away from these people, that they were toxic to my spirit and wanted to

destroy my self-esteem and any self-love that I had. And would do just that (and

have, essentially) if given the chance. The party line is the addiction ruins

family relationships and those heal with stepwork and spirituality. Well NOT if

those people are lunatics. I guess I just need to grieve the time wasted

throwing spirituality at something that was never going to be healed. EVER.

>