Re: Feeling guilty about arguing with BPD mom

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I know exactly how you feel. Guilt is a weapon those BPD Moms use to manipulate

us. They are constantly throwing things at us and then turning things around so

that the blame is pointed at us, not at them. They lure us into an argument,

and then at the end, when we do explode, they say: see, you're the crazy one,

you're the aggressive one. When it was all them to begin with. I think the way

Annie put it, and which I find very helpful, is that we are never to blame as we

were children, and they were the grownups. Children can not be blamed for their

behavior though Adults can be held accountable - this is how the law sees it as

well, children are children and adults have a huge responsibility to treat them

well and raise them the right way. We were never given that - we were given

mixed signals all the time, it's a wonder we can even function in our adult

life! We are all so proud of you for canceling your trip to see her. It's

better that way. Family holidays are not worth it when it's going to be tense

and when there's a lot of fighting and anger. You will have a great weekend

without her and her negativity.

I used to feel guilty - I used to feel wrong - I used to feel that it's all my

fault - that I'm the nervous wreck, that I must have said something to set her

off - but I came to realize after that, that NO IT IS NOT MY FAULT - She's the

sick one, she's the one who is pulling me into these arguments again and again -

setting booby traps and landmines in my way so that when I step on one of them

and it explodes in my face, she'll say see, I told you so, you are aggressive

and like to argue, etc. After reading books on BPD I figured that it's never my

fault really. Compared to other families, we are GREAT kids, we are LOVING

kids, we are RESPONSIBLE kids, we go way over and beyond what normal kids do for

their mothers. I see the way others treat their moms and the way the mom is so

normal about it - and I think, wow, I'd never get away with THAT behavior with

my Mom, I'd be blown to pieces!

That's how you get over the guilt - when you realize, IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT - you

were a child who was abused emotionally, maybe even physically - she has

destroyed you for life - you will have to live with that legacy and our whole

lives I believe we will never be the same, no matter how much we try, we can't

forget the past. However, we can move forward and say: NO, I WILL NOT TOLERATE

THIS FROM YOU ANYMORE - I WILL NOT FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR PROBLEMS - IF

ANYTHING HAPPENS TO YOU IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT - I imagine that I am screaming

this at my Mom, in my head, and I feel better knowing that I have moved on

emotionally, that I have thick skin now, she can't touch me - you know how the

saying goes: sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.

That's how I feel these days - words will never hurt me. My Mom only yesterday

said: " I'm traveling tomorrow, I had a dream last night that the plane fell and

I and your Dad died. If I die tomorrow you will feel so guilty that you weren't

nice to your mother. " I said to her: " No I won't. I won't feel guilty. I won't

feel responsible for your plane crash or for anything. " And I truly don't. I

refuse to feel the guilt because actually it is SHE who should be feeling guilty

for the rest of her life for abusing us emotionally. We have all the right to

walk away and save ourselves from emotional destruction. we don't owe our

mothers anything because they were never mothers to us to begin with. So what

if they carried us in their wombs for 9 months and fed us. We didnt' choose to

be born, nor choose this life. Actually, according to scripture, it is their

RESPONSIBILITY to raise us, feed us, clothe us, provide for us - and our moms

make us feel as if they did us a favor by even just carrying us in their wombs!!

The nerve of them!! if our mothers acted like normal mothers, yes, I'd feel

guilty. But our mothers are cruel, evil at heart, and are truly out there to

beat us down, KNOWINGLY. WITH INTENT. Some of those books I read said that

these BPD mothers KNOW that they are harming us by their actions, and they have

the ability to stop that, but they don't. They CAN CONTROL their behavior, but

they CHOOSE Not to.

I hope that you will not feel guilty anymore, you have a right to enjoy your

life, live selfishly, go out there an enjoy, do things ONLY for YOU, feel good

about yourself, because you deserve to spoil yourself after a lifetime of pain.

Big hugs,

N

> Hi everyone,

>

> So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and besides

I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well, she got

mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to come visit

her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad about it? I hate

that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to her and tell her

the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

>

> Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting history

to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

>

> Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

>

> I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life not

overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am still

always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

>

> My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

>

> Thank You.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, thank you for syaing all this....it is very powerful and made me think.

You are so right about us being good kids and going over what others do for

their mothers. I see my friends say and do things that really are normal things

but I think oh my god if i did that or said that my mom would have a fit. I

have had other mothers tell me I wish I had a kid as good as you are to your

mom. Case in point, it was mothers day and I sent her a card, flowers, and

money. The last two times I sent flowers she made comments about them, such as

they could have been bigger or nicer etc. Well, when the flowers came this time

I asked her where they nice? she said they were nice. Next day she calls and

tells me some of the greenery in the vase wilted. She went on and on about it

and complained that there were not enough roses in the arrangement. Complained

about the flourist I used and that i shoudln't use them again. On and on it

went. I actually called the flourist and told them and they sent her a new

bunch of flowers. Anyway, by that time I was so disgusted I just said you know

mom why do you always have to complain can't you just be glad I sent flowers and

leave it at that. She said well I am just telling you so you don't get wripped

off. So what even if the flowers weren't perfect just say they were and can't

you just be grateful you got them. Nope, she said I have to tell the truth that

is the way I am. Then she commented how when she sent me flowers for my

birthday and weren't they beautiful...I said yes they were nice she was trying

to make me feel bad for the ones I sent to her as they weren't as nice as what

she sent to me. She completely destroyed my intent which was to make her happy

for mom's day. To be honest she didn't them deserve anyway as she was not or is

not a steller mother. It was my own fault for even doing it. I can tell you

there will be no more flowers. I am done with that.

Other mothers would be glad to get flowers not her always a complaint that it

isn't perfect enough. I can tell you none of my friends gave their mom flowers

and money. They got one or the other and that was it and they were happy to get

it.

I love it when you said " live selfishly " , that was another comment my mom made

my whole life...you are so selfish. On and on about how selfish I was. She is

the queen of selfish but the first to cast the stone. I am just sick and tired

of trying to win her love and approval. You get it one day and she withdraws it

the next. It is a wonder we are able to grow up and function normally.

Interesting when you say they know they are hurting us and do it anyway. I

always thought well she has issues so i have to excuse a lot but you know when I

think about it yes she could change her behavior if she wanted too....Makes me

mad that she chooses not to do that and would rather sacrifice a relationship

with me than change her ways.

>

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and besides

I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well, she got

mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to come visit

her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad about it? I hate

that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to her and tell her

the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> >

> > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting history

to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

> >

> > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I

am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

> >

> > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life

not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am

still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> >

> > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> >

> > Thank You.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's uncanny; I've had that very same conversation, almost word for word,

with my nada (bpd mom) over flowers I sent her. They're never good enough,

they're wilted, etc.

I've found that coming to understanding the nature of what borderline pd is, and

that its not my fault that my nada has it, I didn't cause her to have it, and I

can't fix it, helps me not take the ugly, critical behaviors quite so

personally, at least a little.

You feel guilty for perhaps saying too much, and hurting your mother's feelings.

That means you have normal human empathy; you can understand and feel with

another person's pain. But those with Narcissistic pd and antisocial pd lack

the capacity for empathy, and sometimes those with borderline pd also have some

of the traits and behaviors of npd and apsd. There is a lot of overlap within

the Cluster B group of pds.

So, its normal to feel guilty when you hurt someone, normal to apologize and to

make the effort to not be hurtful again. But those with pds feel that whatever

they do is OK, its normal and rational and justified. That's called having an

" ego-syntonic " condition. Someone with an " ego syntonic " condition thinks,

" There's nothing wrong with me, I'm just fine. You're the one who is crazy,

mean and hateful. You are the cause of all my problems, its all your fault.

I'm perfect! I'm the victim here! "

Basically, its highly unlikely that you'll ever get your mother to comprehend

that she was abusive to you in the past, to accept that she harmed you and its

not likely that she will feel the need to apologize and attempt to make

amends... because she has a personality disorder. That is one of the ways that

personality disorder manifests itself.

All you can do is decide how you want to relate to her even though she will not

or cannot change. You can reduce the amount of contact to " limited contact " ,

set up boundaries to protect yourself and enforce them, you can go total no

contact temporarily or permanently, or you can just let things stay the way they

are.

But I suggest that if you keep battering yourself, throwing yourself repeatedly

against the brick wall of her personality disorder, trying to bash through her

inability or unwillingness to accept personal responsibility and offer

atonement, all that's going to happen is that you will give yourself a massive

headache.

I suggest that you will have more peace and joy in your life if you can come to

accept that you can't change her, but you can change the way you relate to her

(boundaries with limited contact, and/or no contact.)

Just my two cent's worth.

-Annie

> >

> > > Hi everyone,

> > >

> > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago

During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > >

> > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting history

to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

> > >

> > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I

am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

> > >

> > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life

not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am

still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > >

> > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > >

> > > Thank You.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie,

Thank you for this. I know you are right in everything you wrote here. I wish i

could just stop getting so triggered by her behaviors. I feel so crappy today

with cancelling the trip and not going to see her. She is the only family

member I have and though it was her suggestion for me not to come I still feel

bad about it and about the arguement.

I know she acts the way she does because it's all part of the personality

disorder yet I still want her to change. I have to get it thru my thick head

that she won't and I need to stop expecting that. all I am doing is driving

myself crazy trying to get something that won't ever come.

My question to all you wise folks here how do you deal with your BPD mom? I

mean like specifics, if your willing to share, I would love to know more ways in

how to deal with it better. When you say limited contact can you give some

examples of what that looks like. I have done NC and full contact, both feel

bad and I just don't know how to do something in between. In my family things

were always all or nothing so it's hard to know boundaries and keep them.

> > >

> > > > Hi everyone,

> > > >

> > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago

During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > >

> > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all

the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > >

> > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase

I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her

etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out

partying, etc.

> > > >

> > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her

life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I

am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > >

> > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go

I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > >

> > > > Thank You.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I am currently in No Contact with nada (bpd mom), but my younger Sister is in

Low Contact with her. Our situation with our nada has recently changed

drastically as our nada began actively hallucinating over the last 3 or 4 months

and has had to be relocated to an assisted living residence to keep her from

wandering. So far, the anti-psychotic meds haven't had any impact; in fact the

hallucinations increased from sometimes to all the time, and nada's behaviors

have become more alarming and potentially dangerous for her. Its actually

pretty sad.

But up until this recent change in status, the " low contact " routine was for

Sister to phone nada once a week, and go over to see her once a month. Nada was

not allowed to phone Sister unless it was an emergency. Even now, Sister does

not allow nada to discuss certain topics with her; when nada tries to bring

these topics up (those with bpd are sometimes highly resistant to

boundary-setting) Sister says, " Remember, mother, I'm not going to discuss that

with you. We're not " going there " , it will just upset both of us. Is there

something else you wanted to talk with me about? " If mother refuses to go along

with Sister's boundary, or if mother becomes hostile and says ugly things in an

effort to pick a fight with Sister, then Sister assertively but politely hangs

up or leaves.

So, limited contact is about determining how frequently and how long your phone

calls and/or your visits with your bpd mom will be, deciding what topics you

will or won't discuss with her, and what behaviors from her you will and will

not tolerate.

Maybe you would benefit from reading " Stop Walking On Eggshells " and the newer

books by Randi Kreger, and books about setting boundaries (like " Boundaries " by

Cloud and Townsend) and books about overcoming co-dependency. Knowledge is

power, and empowering.

Its important to go ahead and do what you figure out will work for you and

protect yourself EVEN THOUGH it is uncomfortable because of the misplaced,

inappropriate guilt you are feeling.

So, maybe just keep telling yourself, " This guilt I'm feeling isn't my guilt.

I've been conditioned to feel mother's guilt for her, to carry it for her. I'm

giving you this guilt back, mother. Its not mine to carry. This is your guilt;

you carry it. "

Perhaps instead of guilt, you are feeling bereft, lonely, and starved for any

attachment with your mother even though its a toxic, unhealthy attachment?

If that's the case, then, it will probably help for you to branch out and form

friendships and attachments with other people who are mentally healthy and won't

abuse you. Fill your life with healthy, sweet, kind, people whom you can love

and who will return your love in healthy, positive, nurturing ways.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > >

> > > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago

During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all

the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is

becuase I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is

needing her etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could

be out partying, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her

life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I

am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > > >

> > > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it

go I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank You.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie, I like your example here and I have done simlar with my mom in terms

of setting a boundary about things i don't want to talk about and she will go

right ahead and do it anyway..then I will get mad and hang up. I know I am not

acting very healthy either. Your sister sounds like she does it very well I like

what you said and will remember it for future. My mom does not take boundaries

and will cross them at every turn in fact, she actually will do it more if I do

that (hope I am making sense here) she is very anti anyone telling her what to

do.

I have read stop walking on eggshells but need to reread it again as it has been

awile and I gave my copy away. I will order it again. You would think after

all the therapy and Alanon work I have done I would be able to set better

boundaries and keep them but I just end up setting them and then not sticking

with it when she crosses it I just get angry and we fight. Not good. I must

say it is exhausting dealing with this....I would like for once to just get to

be a daughter and not have to be a psychiatrist to deal with my own mother.

You wrote, " Perhaps instead of guilt, you are feeling bereft, lonely, and

starved for any attachment with your mother even though its a toxic, unhealthy

attachment? " , You are right on target here and I need to get out in the world

and form more healthy attachments with others. I do have friends, and a great

job, but no boyfriend and never married so I struggle right now with feelings of

aloneness. Most relationships I have had with men, I have not attracted good

ones, so I have shyed away from this for awile now for fear of getting hurt

again. I also can see how I have been isolating myself and becoming more

emmeshed with my mom's drama instead of focusing more on the good friends and

relationships I do have.

Maybe I need to go back to therpay again to help me deal with things, not sure,

but I do know that I don't like how I am feeling and I need to make some

changes.

Thank you so much for sharing!

If you have any other good book suggestions please let me know.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago

During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was

all the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is

becuase I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is

needing her etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could

be out partying, etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about

her life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that

I am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile

she is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let

it go I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank You.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

> Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want

me to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel

bad about it?

Because scolding and punishment are things people do when they've done something

that needs to be corrected. As children, we need these kinds of consequences

when we do something that could be harmful. However, in dysfunctional systems,

they are used inappropriately as weapons instead of as tools.

To illustrate, imagine you and your friend each want to learn to build things.

You find two carpenters, and each of you becomes an apprentice to one of them.

One carpenter is very skilled and uses quality materials. He begins to teach

your friend how to use the tools, correcting her when she uses one improperly.

One day, she accidentally smashes her thumb with a hammer, and her carpenter

helps her bandage it and lets her help with other tasks around the workshop

while it heals. Over time, she learns to make beautiful furniture that can be

handed down for generations.

However, the carpenter who is teaching you, it turns out, doesn't really know

much about building, despite his workroom full of furniture (you didn't realize

that most of it is actually from IKEA). He has a few tools on the shelf, but

won't let you touch them, and yells at you and berates you when you even look at

them. He pounds things together with his fist instead of using his hammer. One

day, you ask about this, because you are curious and want to learn when it

should and should not be used. He hands you a nail and tells you to hold it in

place, then he strolls over to the shelf and grabs his hammer. Glaring at you,

he raises the hammer high over his head and slams it into your hand, without

even looking once at the nail. " THAT'S WHY nobody uses a hammer, stupid! " He

makes you work with your injured hand the rest of the day, even scolds you when

you for not using it properly. He rolls his eyes when it looks like you want to

complain about the pain, and tells you that if you are going to be ignorant, you

are just going to have to deal with the consequences. You feel ashamed of

yourself, and wish you were a better apprentice. You start to think that maybe

this is just how you learn, and if you just stick around long enough, eventually

you will be good enough to make something on your own, even something small. You

learn to keep your mouth shut and do whatever he says.

You don't understand why your friend is able to make such wonderful things,

while you are not. After all, you both started at the same time, and you both

have someone to teach you. Maybe, you think, there's something wrong with you,

that you're simply not cut out for this line of work; maybe you'll never be good

enough to make something. You believe that because your carpenter is older and

has experience, that he must be right when he says you have no talent and are

uncoordinated, stupid, and slow. You would give up if he hadn't told you so many

times that you're a quitter.

Your mother is the bad carpenter. She's just hit you over the hand with her

hammer instead of teaching you how to use it to build. You are feeling

badly--you are in pain--because SHE has done something inappropriate, not

because YOU have. She is scolding you and guilt-tripping you, even punishing

you (well, she wants you to FEEL as if you are being punished...but I can't

imagine it as anything but a gift!), and those things don't feel good. But you

are not in need of punishment or scolding; you have not done anything wrong. All

you have done is try to learn, try to find healing. You might be feeling icky,

but please take a step back and don't believe for a second that you feel that

way because you deserve to. You are in pain because your mother's behavior is

childish and abusive, not because you have done something " bad. "

[Guest guest]

I'm glad that helped you, .

I think the increase in unpleasant, abrasive boundary-violating behavior is

common with bpd moms. They are used to being in control of us, and treating us

however they please, so when we establish normal, reasonable adult boundaries

mom fights it: she wants her power back! You are not being compliant and

obedient, you must be bludgeoned back into shape! I've heard this behavior

referred to as an " extinction burst " .

Sometimes it helps to actually rehearse different possible scenarios that could

occur when you have conversations or visits with your bpd mom; get a friend or

your therapist to act the roles with you. You take turns playing the role of

your mom and yourself, and you try different behaviors that she does to control

you plus good ways to respond to them that allow you to maintain control of the

situation, by not reacting emotionally. It does require that you are able to

step back emotionally, and become at least somewhat detached from your mother.

Its the same principal behind " Medium Chill " .

Keep in mind that none of this is about changing *her*. Your mom is the only

one who has that power.

This is about you changing the way you respond to her. This is about you, an

adult, relating to your mother as a fellow adult, not as a small child relating

to her mommy.

You do have the power to change yourself.

-Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week

ago During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was

all the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is

becuase I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is

needing her etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could

be out partying, etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about

her life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that

I am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile

she is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let

it go I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank You.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I LOVE this analogy, svaktshka! That is such a vivid and spot-on illustration

of exactly how disordered bpd thinking and behaviors manifest as abusive

parenting and how that has such a negative impact on the children of bpd

parents; really well-put! Thanks for sharing it!

-Annie

>

> > Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want

me to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel

bad about it?

>

>

> Because scolding and punishment are things people do when they've done

something that needs to be corrected. As children, we need these kinds of

consequences when we do something that could be harmful. However, in

dysfunctional systems, they are used inappropriately as weapons instead of as

tools.

>

> To illustrate, imagine you and your friend each want to learn to build things.

You find two carpenters, and each of you becomes an apprentice to one of them.

One carpenter is very skilled and uses quality materials. He begins to teach

your friend how to use the tools, correcting her when she uses one improperly.

One day, she accidentally smashes her thumb with a hammer, and her carpenter

helps her bandage it and lets her help with other tasks around the workshop

while it heals. Over time, she learns to make beautiful furniture that can be

handed down for generations.

>

> However, the carpenter who is teaching you, it turns out, doesn't really know

much about building, despite his workroom full of furniture (you didn't realize

that most of it is actually from IKEA). He has a few tools on the shelf, but

won't let you touch them, and yells at you and berates you when you even look at

them. He pounds things together with his fist instead of using his hammer. One

day, you ask about this, because you are curious and want to learn when it

should and should not be used. He hands you a nail and tells you to hold it in

place, then he strolls over to the shelf and grabs his hammer. Glaring at you,

he raises the hammer high over his head and slams it into your hand, without

even looking once at the nail. " THAT'S WHY nobody uses a hammer, stupid! " He

makes you work with your injured hand the rest of the day, even scolds you when

you for not using it properly. He rolls his eyes when it looks like you want to

complain about the pain, and tells you that if you are going to be ignorant, you

are just going to have to deal with the consequences. You feel ashamed of

yourself, and wish you were a better apprentice. You start to think that maybe

this is just how you learn, and if you just stick around long enough, eventually

you will be good enough to make something on your own, even something small. You

learn to keep your mouth shut and do whatever he says.

>

> You don't understand why your friend is able to make such wonderful things,

while you are not. After all, you both started at the same time, and you both

have someone to teach you. Maybe, you think, there's something wrong with you,

that you're simply not cut out for this line of work; maybe you'll never be good

enough to make something. You believe that because your carpenter is older and

has experience, that he must be right when he says you have no talent and are

uncoordinated, stupid, and slow. You would give up if he hadn't told you so many

times that you're a quitter.

>

> Your mother is the bad carpenter. She's just hit you over the hand with her

hammer instead of teaching you how to use it to build. You are feeling

badly--you are in pain--because SHE has done something inappropriate, not

because YOU have. She is scolding you and guilt-tripping you, even punishing

you (well, she wants you to FEEL as if you are being punished...but I can't

imagine it as anything but a gift!), and those things don't feel good. But you

are not in need of punishment or scolding; you have not done anything wrong. All

you have done is try to learn, try to find healing. You might be feeling icky,

but please take a step back and don't believe for a second that you feel that

way because you deserve to. You are in pain because your mother's behavior is

childish and abusive, not because you have done something " bad. "

>

[Guest guest]

This was a great analogy, so creative and well said. I will be printing this out

and re-reading over and over again.

Thank You!!!!!

>

> > Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want

me to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel

bad about it?

>

>

> Because scolding and punishment are things people do when they've done

something that needs to be corrected. As children, we need these kinds of

consequences when we do something that could be harmful. However, in

dysfunctional systems, they are used inappropriately as weapons instead of as

tools.

>

> To illustrate, imagine you and your friend each want to learn to build things.

You find two carpenters, and each of you becomes an apprentice to one of them.

One carpenter is very skilled and uses quality materials. He begins to teach

your friend how to use the tools, correcting her when she uses one improperly.

One day, she accidentally smashes her thumb with a hammer, and her carpenter

helps her bandage it and lets her help with other tasks around the workshop

while it heals. Over time, she learns to make beautiful furniture that can be

handed down for generations.

>

> However, the carpenter who is teaching you, it turns out, doesn't really know

much about building, despite his workroom full of furniture (you didn't realize

that most of it is actually from IKEA). He has a few tools on the shelf, but

won't let you touch them, and yells at you and berates you when you even look at

them. He pounds things together with his fist instead of using his hammer. One

day, you ask about this, because you are curious and want to learn when it

should and should not be used. He hands you a nail and tells you to hold it in

place, then he strolls over to the shelf and grabs his hammer. Glaring at you,

he raises the hammer high over his head and slams it into your hand, without

even looking once at the nail. " THAT'S WHY nobody uses a hammer, stupid! " He

makes you work with your injured hand the rest of the day, even scolds you when

you for not using it properly. He rolls his eyes when it looks like you want to

complain about the pain, and tells you that if you are going to be ignorant, you

are just going to have to deal with the consequences. You feel ashamed of

yourself, and wish you were a better apprentice. You start to think that maybe

this is just how you learn, and if you just stick around long enough, eventually

you will be good enough to make something on your own, even something small. You

learn to keep your mouth shut and do whatever he says.

>

> You don't understand why your friend is able to make such wonderful things,

while you are not. After all, you both started at the same time, and you both

have someone to teach you. Maybe, you think, there's something wrong with you,

that you're simply not cut out for this line of work; maybe you'll never be good

enough to make something. You believe that because your carpenter is older and

has experience, that he must be right when he says you have no talent and are

uncoordinated, stupid, and slow. You would give up if he hadn't told you so many

times that you're a quitter.

>

> Your mother is the bad carpenter. She's just hit you over the hand with her

hammer instead of teaching you how to use it to build. You are feeling

badly--you are in pain--because SHE has done something inappropriate, not

because YOU have. She is scolding you and guilt-tripping you, even punishing

you (well, she wants you to FEEL as if you are being punished...but I can't

imagine it as anything but a gift!), and those things don't feel good. But you

are not in need of punishment or scolding; you have not done anything wrong. All

you have done is try to learn, try to find healing. You might be feeling icky,

but please take a step back and don't believe for a second that you feel that

way because you deserve to. You are in pain because your mother's behavior is

childish and abusive, not because you have done something " bad. "

>

[Guest guest]

" *Yes, I will admit she is better to me now* in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc "

It's too late though. Too late to change her behavior as a mother no matter how

well she treats you now. What's done is done.

Everyone's responses on this thread have been really helpful and profound, I

have enjoyed reading them and saved some of them. I know what it is like, ,

to express those feeling about our accurate telling of our childhood and then

feel guilty, in my family I am 'iced out' a lot because I tell the truth about

the sexual abuse my siblings and I experienced. there is a pretty messed up

dynamic in my family.

But you are doing the right thing by telling the truth about your childhood,

both for yourself and for her. Nothing can ever make it different. She has grief

inside her about the kind of mother she became though she will probably never

connect with it in this lifetime. It is not your job to protect her from that,

or to continually reassure her of a lie (that she was a good or even 'ok'

mother) for the rest of her or your livelong life. Two wrongs do not make a

right. It's wrong to ask this of you. She's already chalked up enough 'wrong' on

the scorecard in terms of being a crappy parent, don't aid and abet her to get

more by going along with her insistence on manipulating your emotions and

version of the truth. The lists of wrongs she carries is real, the most loving

thing you can do for her and yourself is to not allow her to cajole you into

making it any longer, every time she forces herself on you emotionally or

psychologically like a rabid succubus in emotional starvation mode, she commits

another wrong, in my opinion. Your resistance to that is the most loving thing

you can do for her, and for yourself. Otherwise you are infantilizing her and

she is not a child.

It's amazing you sent her lovely flowers for the holiday. It just sounds to me

like you need more validation and resonance that she really is and was this

crazy and that you are not in the wrong. To borrow from Annie's posts, the

reason she's able to make you feel so wrong is because you revert back to your

child self, and there was a huge power imbalance back then so of course you feel

over-powered, because you have the physical and mental memory of when she was

much larger and bigger than you. It makes it hard to stay in the present.

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

>

> Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

>

> Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

>

> I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life not

overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am still

always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

>

> My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

>

> Thank You.

>

[Guest guest]

, I had a very similar blow up with my nada a few years ago. You've

committed the cardinal sin of poking a hole in one of her illusions. She can

say she loves you all day long and she does it to reinforce an idea of who she

is, who you are, what your relationship is that denies how things actually are.

You bring up how you actually feel and she then acts anything but loving. And

it's your fault because YOU messed up the beautiful illusion! My mother

literally said that I had destroyed the beautiful garden of our relationship.

My therapist said yes and your suffering was having to serve as the fertilizer

for her flowers. That always stuck with me that my nada's illusions of

perfection are supported by other people hurting and bending themselves around

at unnatural angles to support them.

So YOU have nothing to feel guilty about! What she blames you for is not a

wrong on your part, but for causing her to experience and see truth she doesn't

want to see. And that part is not your responsibility.

Take care,

Eliza

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

>

> Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

>

> Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

>

> I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life not

overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am still

always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

>

> My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

>

> Thank You.

>

[Guest guest]

Another thought provoking post, you wrote, " It just sounds to me like you need

more validation and resonance that she really is and was this crazy and that you

are not in the wrong. " Yes, I am always needing that validation that she is that

bad, I question myself.

Yet, logically I do know it was bad and even therapist have told me it is that

bad and they are amazed that I turned out as functional as I have. Her own

family said the same. She is just so good at acting normal when she wants too

and also of rewriting history to make it all sound okay. She just has a way of

doing it that makes me question my own observations and was it real even though

I know it was real, I hope I making sense here. She is just very good at making

herself seem perfectly normal and that there is something wrong with me or

whoever. It is mind boggling the way she can turn it all around and make you

think it is you!

I hope I am doing the right thing by speaking my truth of how it felt to be her

daughter. I only bring it up when she paints a lying picture that is so untrue

that i just can't go along with it. Having to agree with her so she feels okay,

when I know it is a lie feels like I am hurting myself all over again all to

keep the peace. There was so much lying and denying in my crazy family. I did

it for many years but I just can't do it anymore.

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> >

> > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

> >

> > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I

am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

> >

> > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life

not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am

still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> >

> > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> >

> > Thank You.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank You Eliza. I love this, " poking a hole in one of her illusions. "

I wish I had found this forum years ago but so glad i did now. There is so much

wonderful support here. All of your posts made me feel so much better. Thank

You!!!

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> >

> > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

> >

> > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I

am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

> >

> > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life

not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am

still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> >

> > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> >

> > Thank You.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

For me, the guilt reduces over time. It is kind of like practicing anything.

And I practice comforting myself verbally out loud. I found that I needed to

hear some encouraging words as a child and had so many bad messages to overcome.

I have a habit of talking to myself when I'm under stress. (I can do this in my

head when necessary.) It is referred to in counseling as re-programming your

internal monologue or recording a new " tape " in your head.

Over time, a person can begin to believe the new, healthier ways of thinking.

But I think time and practice are big elements in this, as well as validation

from others that your situation was severe. And it was. I'm sure we can always

think of something " worse " in any situation, but that does not excuse the

terrible upbringing you had. One of the worst things for me is the ongoing

abuse and lack of support in life. It has limited me in so many ways.

It's time we start providing this support for ourselves. This group is

Excellent for that purpose. Our faith and our own strength are tools as well. I

applaud you for " calling her bluff, " so-to-speak and cancelling your trip. It

sounds like you may have saved yourself from more abusive interaction. We are

going to have to save ourselves in this because the parents who were supposed to

protect us are attacking us. It's like a bird that pecks her own chick to death.

For me and others here, the guilt has reduced. Just remember - the guilt

message is part of the abuse. It is not real - just another of her lies.

Sincerely,

Coal Miner's Daughter

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

>

> Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

>

> Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

>

> I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life not

overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am still

always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

>

> My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

>

> Thank You.

>

[Guest guest]

Everyone's responses have been really great, but I wanted to add something

really blunt in hopes that it will help (so forgive me if it's too blunt):

You feel guilty and bad because she WANTS you to feel guilty and bad. You did

not cancel your trip. She exerted power of you by telling you not to come

because you are a " bad child " .

Now, I know it's hard not to feel bad. I have absolutely been there in extremely

similar situation and in hindsight from my situation when I went through all of

what you are going through right now, this is my advice:

Don't feel guilty, feel relieved. Now you don't have to visit and be in the

presence of this crazy person who makes you feel like a naughty child and abuses

you verbally (and physically?). I can never understand why I let anyone in the

world treat me the way nada does. If any stranger behaved that way to me...well,

I'd see the crazy coming and cross the street. But when it's your mother...well,

it's a little bit like being in Wonderland with the Red Queen. It's like being

one of those little gophers or cards in the croquet game trying to make the

Queen win no matter how badly she hits the ball.

She wanted to get you upset. Next time, just say " That's too bad that you don't

want to see me. " Don't act like it ruins your entire month, year, week,

whatever. She's not the center of your universe. YOU are the center of your

universe.

I know boundaries are hard. You are off to a good start. Knowledge is power and

awareness is power. You are aware and continuing to learn. You can get to a

place where her responses don't affect you.

Stay strong. Be firm. Love yourself...

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

>

> Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

>

> Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I am

grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

>

> I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life not

overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am still

always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she is

perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

>

> My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

>

> Thank You.

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I know EXACTLY what you mean about the " gifts " . I used to give her gifts and

she would ALWAYS make me feel bad about them - the gifts were NEVER good enough

for her, there were always comments to make me feel so small and insignificant.

Imagine that she actually gives me back my gifts and says, it's best you take

the gift and use it yourself. I always used to feel that I was " less " than her,

as she was too high and mighty for the gifts and I was the " cheap " one with no

taste, blah blah blah. After a few times of that I decided: NO MORE GIFTS FOR

MOM. And I don't bother to even call her on Mother's day anymore or her

birthday - I just don't bother anymore, and you know what's funny? The more I

ignore, the more she lets go of her own " pride " and approaches me with phone

calls etc. I find that the more we ignore them, the less they will bitch to us

about stuff, and the more likely it will be that they will come begging to be

let back in again. Actually, the more we act strong and as if we don't care,

they actually look up to us! It's as if we have suddenly risen in their books

and they are in awe. This way, I have the upper hand, I don't have to deal with

her criticism, AND I'm free of the responsibility of worrying about when to

call, what gifts to bring, etc. It's like I've gone to the other extreme - I

let her do all the calling - but again, it is her fault that we've become this

way, she's shot us down so many times that out of protection for ourselves we

have swung in the other direction. You see, they glorify people who treat them

badly - it's like they need to be treated like dirt in order to come down from

the queen's high ground and act " normal " .

Yes. they are the queen of selfish and keep saying that we are so selfish. Most

of all, I get: " you children lack respect and caring, you don't know how to

love, even if you say you love me, you don't show it, blah blah. " I used to be

so confused as a Kid because we were the PERFECT KIDS. compared to others, we

were gold. But nothing is ever enough for them, so there's really no point in

trying is there? Just live your life selfishly, and believe me, you are not

selfish, you are actually " normal " compared to other people, even if we wanted

to be selfish, we can't do it, because we are not used to that! We end up always

thinking of others and putting others' needs before ours. This is how we have

been trained from childhood. I see it in myself - my children's and husband's

needs always come before mine. We have to remind ourselves that we have needs

too. That's what I need to work on from now on, especially as I've shaken the

" queen's spell " and am " free " !

Hugs,

N

> Wow, thank you for syaing all this....it is very powerful and made me think.

You are so right about us being good kids and going over what others do for

their mothers. I see my friends say and do things that really are normal things

but I think oh my god if i did that or said that my mom would have a fit. I have

had other mothers tell me I wish I had a kid as good as you are to your mom.

Case in point, it was mothers day and I sent her a card, flowers, and money.

The last two times I sent flowers she made comments about them, such as they

could have been bigger or nicer etc. Well, when the flowers came this time I

asked her where they nice? she said they were nice. Next day she calls and tells

me some of the greenery in the vase wilted. She went on and on about it and

complained that there were not enough roses in the arrangement. Complained about

the flourist I used and that i shoudln't use them again. On and on it went. I

actually called the flourist and told them and they sent her a new bunch of

flowers. Anyway, by that time I was so disgusted I just said you know mom why do

you always have to complain can't you just be glad I sent flowers and leave it

at that. She said well I am just telling you so you don't get wripped off. So

what even if the flowers weren't perfect just say they were and can't you just

be grateful you got them. Nope, she said I have to tell the truth that is the

way I am. Then she commented how when she sent me flowers for my birthday and

weren't they beautiful...I said yes they were nice she was trying to make me

feel bad for the ones I sent to her as they weren't as nice as what she sent to

me. She completely destroyed my intent which was to make her happy for mom's

day. To be honest she didn't them deserve anyway as she was not or is not a

steller mother. It was my own fault for even doing it. I can tell you there will

be no more flowers. I am done with that.

>

> Other mothers would be glad to get flowers not her always a complaint that it

isn't perfect enough. I can tell you none of my friends gave their mom flowers

and money. They got one or the other and that was it and they were happy to get

it.

>

> I love it when you said " live selfishly " , that was another comment my mom made

my whole life...you are so selfish. On and on about how selfish I was. She is

the queen of selfish but the first to cast the stone. I am just sick and tired

of trying to win her love and approval. You get it one day and she withdraws it

the next. It is a wonder we are able to grow up and function normally.

Interesting when you say they know they are hurting us and do it anyway. I

always thought well she has issues so i have to excuse a lot but you know when I

think about it yes she could change her behavior if she wanted too....Makes me

mad that she chooses not to do that and would rather sacrifice a relationship

with me than change her ways.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Let her do the calling, that's my limited contact. I won't go over to her

place, she'd eventually want to come over to mine, especially to see the

grandchildren. The more you don't care, they more she cares, it's sort of

inversely proportional. So the less you do, the more effort she will put! And

knowing you will go into NC if she screws up will make her more careful. BPDs

are actually really smart people, they know the results of their actions, but go

through with it anyway - unless the result is a lot of pain, then they will

actually change their actions!

N

> Hi Annie,

>

> Thank you for this. I know you are right in everything you wrote here. I wish

i could just stop getting so triggered by her behaviors. I feel so crappy today

with cancelling the trip and not going to see her. She is the only family member

I have and though it was her suggestion for me not to come I still feel bad

about it and about the arguement.

>

> I know she acts the way she does because it's all part of the personality

disorder yet I still want her to change. I have to get it thru my thick head

that she won't and I need to stop expecting that. all I am doing is driving

myself crazy trying to get something that won't ever come.

>

> My question to all you wise folks here how do you deal with your BPD mom? I

mean like specifics, if your willing to share, I would love to know more ways in

how to deal with it better. When you say limited contact can you give some

examples of what that looks like. I have done NC and full contact, both feel bad

and I just don't know how to do something in between. In my family things were

always all or nothing so it's hard to know boundaries and keep them.

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > >

> > > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago

During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all

the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is

becuase I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is

needing her etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could

be out partying, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her

life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I

am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > > >

> > > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it

go I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank You.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yes, our Moms would rather we have no friends and just focus on her.

Don't fall into the trap. The more time you spend away from her, the more you

will have to look elsewhere for human contact. It may be difficult at first,

but I think this is the only way to have the time and energy to meet more

people. It happened to me, to the point that I didn't know how to fill my time

anymore if I wasn't with her. Then I decided enough was enough and from then

on, things got better! I found other people to fill the void.

N

> Hi Annie, I like your example here and I have done simlar with my mom in terms

of setting a boundary about things i don't want to talk about and she will go

right ahead and do it anyway..then I will get mad and hang up. I know I am not

acting very healthy either. Your sister sounds like she does it very well I like

what you said and will remember it for future. My mom does not take boundaries

and will cross them at every turn in fact, she actually will do it more if I do

that (hope I am making sense here) she is very anti anyone telling her what to

do.

>

> I have read stop walking on eggshells but need to reread it again as it has

been awile and I gave my copy away. I will order it again. You would think after

all the therapy and Alanon work I have done I would be able to set better

boundaries and keep them but I just end up setting them and then not sticking

with it when she crosses it I just get angry and we fight. Not good. I must say

it is exhausting dealing with this....I would like for once to just get to be a

daughter and not have to be a psychiatrist to deal with my own mother.

>

> You wrote, " Perhaps instead of guilt, you are feeling bereft, lonely, and

starved for any attachment with your mother even though its a toxic, unhealthy

attachment? " , You are right on target here and I need to get out in the world

and form more healthy attachments with others. I do have friends, and a great

job, but no boyfriend and never married so I struggle right now with feelings of

aloneness. Most relationships I have had with men, I have not attracted good

ones, so I have shyed away from this for awile now for fear of getting hurt

again. I also can see how I have been isolating myself and becoming more

emmeshed with my mom's drama instead of focusing more on the good friends and

relationships I do have.

>

> Maybe I need to go back to therpay again to help me deal with things, not

sure, but I do know that I don't like how I am feeling and I need to make some

changes.

>

> Thank you so much for sharing!

>

> If you have any other good book suggestions please let me know.

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week

ago During one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you

really? She responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she

doesn't act like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i

didn't really feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a

mother. Her response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now

and besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me.

Well, she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me

to come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was

all the truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she

responded about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my

childhood was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told

her she seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often

mean to me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to

her...I just don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and

rewriting history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do

are very different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel

she just insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have

such a great mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she

was that bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never

admit it!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is

becuase I am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is

needing her etc. She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could

be out partying, etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about

her life not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that

I am still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile

she is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let

it go I still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank You.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi , You are NOT too blunt in fact, I really appreciate your candor and

you are so right. She treated me like a " bad child " and said don't come down,

to " punish me " for speaking up and saying a truth she didn't like.

I like what you said, " Next time, just say " That's too bad that you don't want

to see me. " Don't act like it ruins your entire month, year, week, whatever.

She's not the center of your universe. YOU are the center of your universe. "

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > So I cancelled my trip to see my mom. We had an arguement a week ago During

one of her monologues about how much she loved me, i replied do you really? She

responded with what is that supposed to mean. I told her that she doesn't act

like she loves me thru her behavior. I went on to tell her that i didn't really

feel loved growing up and that she did not seem happy to be a mother. Her

response: You have had years of therapy you should be over it by now and

besides I wasn't that bad a mother there are much worse out there than me. Well,

she got mad and told me since this is the way i feel she does not want me to

come visit her. So, I had to cancel my flight etc. Now, why do I feel bad

about it? I hate that i end up feeling so darn guilty everytime I stand up to

her and tell her the truth of how it felt to be her daughter.

> >

> > Here I sit feeling guilty like I said too much even though it was all the

truth of how i feel. I will admit that i went off in anger when she responded

about my having therapy and should be over it...I told her i felt my childhood

was horrible and I would rather die than ever go back to it. I told her she

seemed miserable and unhappy to have me, always drinking and very often mean to

me, so how can she say she loves me and that I am so important to her...I just

don't feel it. Never did. I said i was tired of her lying and rewriting

history to suit herself. The childhood she remembers and the one I do are very

different. I get mad because she doens't ever validate anything I feel she just

insists she did her best and she isn't that bad and she didn't have such a great

mother either so i should just get over it. Well, In my opinion she was that

bad. Anyone who knows her knows it was that bad but she will never admit it!

> >

> > Yes, I will admit she is better to me now in some ways but it is becuase I

am grown and self sufficient so she doesn't have a child who is needing her etc.

She hated that and was always dumping me somewhere so she could be out partying,

etc.

> >

> > I just don't understand why i feel so guilty and she can go about her life

not overwhelmed with guilt at all. I get so frustrated with myself that I am

still always feeling guilty and questioning did i say too much. Meanwhile she

is perfectly content blaming me for causing this lastest rift.

> >

> > My question is how do you deal with the guilt? How do you just let it go I

still haven't found a way to do it....Any thoughts are welcome.

> >

> > Thank You.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Now that I think about this you are right the times I have ignored her or went

NC, after that she seemed to act better toward me (at least for awile). The

nicer I am and the more I relax the boundaries the more the bad behaviors

escalate and the worse she treats me. Crazy but so true.

>

> > Wow, thank you for syaing all this....it is very powerful and made me think.

You are so right about us being good kids and going over what others do for

their mothers. I see my friends say and do things that really are normal things

but I think oh my god if i did that or said that my mom would have a fit. I have

had other mothers tell me I wish I had a kid as good as you are to your mom.

Case in point, it was mothers day and I sent her a card, flowers, and money.

The last two times I sent flowers she made comments about them, such as they

could have been bigger or nicer etc. Well, when the flowers came this time I

asked her where they nice? she said they were nice. Next day she calls and tells

me some of the greenery in the vase wilted. She went on and on about it and

complained that there were not enough roses in the arrangement. Complained about

the flourist I used and that i shoudln't use them again. On and on it went. I

actually called the flourist and told them and they sent her a new bunch of

flowers. Anyway, by that time I was so disgusted I just said you know mom why do

you always have to complain can't you just be glad I sent flowers and leave it

at that. She said well I am just telling you so you don't get wripped off. So

what even if the flowers weren't perfect just say they were and can't you just

be grateful you got them. Nope, she said I have to tell the truth that is the

way I am. Then she commented how when she sent me flowers for my birthday and

weren't they beautiful...I said yes they were nice she was trying to make me

feel bad for the ones I sent to her as they weren't as nice as what she sent to

me. She completely destroyed my intent which was to make her happy for mom's

day. To be honest she didn't them deserve anyway as she was not or is not a

steller mother. It was my own fault for even doing it. I can tell you there will

be no more flowers. I am done with that.

> >

> > Other mothers would be glad to get flowers not her always a complaint that

it isn't perfect enough. I can tell you none of my friends gave their mom

flowers and money. They got one or the other and that was it and they were happy

to get it.

> >

> > I love it when you said " live selfishly " , that was another comment my mom

made my whole life...you are so selfish. On and on about how selfish I was. She

is the queen of selfish but the first to cast the stone. I am just sick and

tired of trying to win her love and approval. You get it one day and she

withdraws it the next. It is a wonder we are able to grow up and function

normally. Interesting when you say they know they are hurting us and do it

anyway. I always thought well she has issues so i have to excuse a lot but you

know when I think about it yes she could change her behavior if she wanted

too....Makes me mad that she chooses not to do that and would rather sacrifice a

relationship with me than change her ways.

> >

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