confused self-defense instinct

[Guest guest]

Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a crazy parent

can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions. Imagine you've

got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary caregiver, the

caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but the baby must still love

the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is a child with the ability

to move about and think, but still can the child give in to their natural

reactions of self-defense or even express natural aggressive feelings? Not if

they value their well-being as it would enrage the crazy caregiver. Also not

without huge cognitive dissonance with the love they still feel for the

caregiver.

So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set boundaries, maybe

break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at each point how much

psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it out into the world -

when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the alarm bells go off as

soon and loud as they could? can you take protective and defensive action when

needed? what about when offensive action is needed? To me it seems that

initial experience of loving the enemy as a baby has to put a crack in the

self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend our whole lives repairing it...

Eliza

[Guest guest]

I think you are right. When a child has a mentally ill, abusive primary

care-giver, it derails and skews the development of the child's natural

self-protective instincts, because to challenge the care-giver would mean even

worse abuse. For our own survival, we children of the mentally ill have to

adapt to their abnormal, hostile, bizarre, bewildering behaviors. We have to go

" blind " and " deaf " in order to maintain a kind of peace and equilibrium and not

upset mother or father. We turn ourselves into very low-maintenance objects,

with no needs and no feelings. We tell ourselves, " My parents are good people,

they love me, there is something wrong with me; its all my fault; if I just try

harder they will be more stable and they will show me some affection and

attention. "

-Annie

>

> Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a crazy parent

can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions. Imagine you've

got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary caregiver, the

caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but the baby must still love

the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is a child with the ability

to move about and think, but still can the child give in to their natural

reactions of self-defense or even express natural aggressive feelings? Not if

they value their well-being as it would enrage the crazy caregiver. Also not

without huge cognitive dissonance with the love they still feel for the

caregiver.

>

> So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set boundaries, maybe

break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at each point how much

psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it out into the world -

when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the alarm bells go off as

soon and loud as they could? can you take protective and defensive action when

needed? what about when offensive action is needed? To me it seems that

initial experience of loving the enemy as a baby has to put a crack in the

self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend our whole lives repairing it...

>

> Eliza

>

[Guest guest]

So right Annie and then how does one having become really good at being a " very

low-maintenance objects, with no needs and no feelings " go out into the world

and successfully negotiate dealing with others who are dangerous? or others who

are just plain normal and good putting their needs and feelings out there -

easily drowning out someone who is faded to gray? I feel like there should be

some sort of protocol that therapists learn to help deprogram children of the

crazy. It bugs me that most of the time when I go into a therapist office I

get pathologized with diagnoses...depression, anxiety. And I try to explain to

them if they had to deal with what I did they'd be depressed and anxious too!

It's like there needs to be a diagnosis for the TYPE of damage done by growing

up with a crazy parent that acknowledges it as injury rather than putting labels

of illness on a person.

Guess it sounds like I've had a recent disappointing therapy experience but I

actually haven't tried for a couple of years. It's just such a cost

financially and emotionally to even find out if a given therapist can help.

Part of it seems to me that they don't have the tools of understanding that are

common knowledge here in this board! If they know what a BPD is...they need to

know what a KO is too.

Guess that got rambly, thanks for reading.

Eliza

> >

> > Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a crazy

parent can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions. Imagine

you've got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary caregiver, the

caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but the baby must still love

the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is a child with the ability

to move about and think, but still can the child give in to their natural

reactions of self-defense or even express natural aggressive feelings? Not if

they value their well-being as it would enrage the crazy caregiver. Also not

without huge cognitive dissonance with the love they still feel for the

caregiver.

> >

> > So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set boundaries,

maybe break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at each point how much

psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it out into the world -

when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the alarm bells go off as

soon and loud as they could? can you take protective and defensive action when

needed? what about when offensive action is needed? To me it seems that

initial experience of loving the enemy as a baby has to put a crack in the

self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend our whole lives repairing it...

> >

> > Eliza

> >

>

[Guest guest]

there is a diagnosis like that being developed. it is called complex

post-traumatic stress disorder. i think it is safe to say that those of us

who grew up trying to bond with a mentally ill parent are at best " anxiously

attached " . at worst, i think we were hostages. we were totally dependent,

so we had to adapt to the crazy.

i have always thought of it as being bi-lingual or bi-cultural. there was

this reality at home that didn't match what i saw out in the world, or in

other families. i always felt like a translator-whether it was having to

internally translate my mother's crazy instuctions/parenting attempts or

facilitate understanding of her (to the grocer, the mail carrier, other

kids' parents). it was like i always had a foot in two different worlds.

in later years when i finally figured some stuff out and asked for help from

our parish priest, and my school counselor, nada painted me the rebellious

teen. which everyone readily believed since that is a dynamic they were

familiar with, and also, i think it was easier to assume that, than to go

deeper. the betrayal was just compounded.

so, with a legacy like that how are we supposed to TRUST anyone? i think

this is my biggest flea.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 4:58 AM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> So right Annie and then how does one having become really good at being a

> " very low-maintenance objects, with no needs and no feelings " go out into

> the world and successfully negotiate dealing with others who are dangerous?

> or others who are just plain normal and good putting their needs and

> feelings out there - easily drowning out someone who is faded to gray? I

> feel like there should be some sort of protocol that therapists learn to

> help deprogram children of the crazy. It bugs me that most of the time when

> I go into a therapist office I get pathologized with diagnoses...depression,

> anxiety. And I try to explain to them if they had to deal with what I did

> they'd be depressed and anxious too! It's like there needs to be a diagnosis

> for the TYPE of damage done by growing up with a crazy parent that

> acknowledges it as injury rather than putting labels of illness on a person.

>

>

> Guess it sounds like I've had a recent disappointing therapy experience but

> I actually haven't tried for a couple of years. It's just such a cost

> financially and emotionally to even find out if a given therapist can help.

> Part of it seems to me that they don't have the tools of understanding that

> are common knowledge here in this board! If they know what a BPD is...they

> need to know what a KO is too.

>

> Guess that got rambly, thanks for reading.

>

> Eliza

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a crazy

> parent can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions.

> Imagine you've got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary

> caregiver, the caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but the

> baby must still love the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is a

> child with the ability to move about and think, but still can the child give

> in to their natural reactions of self-defense or even express natural

> aggressive feelings? Not if they value their well-being as it would enrage

> the crazy caregiver. Also not without huge cognitive dissonance with the

> love they still feel for the caregiver.

> > >

> > > So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set

> boundaries, maybe break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at each

> point how much psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it out

> into the world - when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the

> alarm bells go off as soon and loud as they could? can you take protective

> and defensive action when needed? what about when offensive action is

> needed? To me it seems that initial experience of loving the enemy as a baby

> has to put a crack in the self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend our

> whole lives repairing it...

> > >

> > > Eliza

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear llel,

Maybe you can work from home, like an internet business, selling items for

instance on E-bay or something? You wouldn't need to be around people for that -

the internet is a good start I think - lots of opportunity there.

N

> it's really ironic to me that is the only thing my therapist this time has

mentioned, evaluating me for PTSD. I have never fallen into any dx accurately

except for aspergers, when I put myself in those criteria I fit. Apparently the

symptoms for aspergers and complex PTSD are very similar. My therapist ruled out

a few prior dx from my early twenties almost immediately, she said 'I am not

seeing any of that with you, and i would tell you, believe me, I don't think you

are bipolar, etc'.

>

> When I first started talking about the abuse my mother told me I had a

complete personality change shortly after I came home from the week long sexual

assault with my grandfather.

>

> She doesn't talk about it anymore because at the time I/she had just begun

processing it and she saw both of us and innocent victims of him. It's since

occurred to her that as my parent she was charged with my care and protection

and that has changed everything because it implicates her so it is kind of an

off limits topic now. But I think that is interesting that at one point I might

have been different..although there was plenty of sexual abuse before that

because I was surrounded by predators.

>

> I wouldn't care about any of it except that I just about can't function on

jobs and it seems to get worse the older I get. I can do the work but I can't

navigate the people stuff and interelating, it always ends up with me leaving. I

have had this last job for 8 years but it is cleaning and I barely make enough

money to live, i can't pay rent so I am stuck living with abusers. I am

extremely frustrated at this point...

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a crazy

> > > parent can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions.

> > > Imagine you've got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary

> > > caregiver, the caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but the

> > > baby must still love the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is a

> > > child with the ability to move about and think, but still can the child

give

> > > in to their natural reactions of self-defense or even express natural

> > > aggressive feelings? Not if they value their well-being as it would enrage

> > > the crazy caregiver. Also not without huge cognitive dissonance with the

> > > love they still feel for the caregiver.

> > > > >

> > > > > So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set

> > > boundaries, maybe break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at

each

> > > point how much psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it

out

> > > into the world - when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the

> > > alarm bells go off as soon and loud as they could? can you take protective

> > > and defensive action when needed? what about when offensive action is

> > > needed? To me it seems that initial experience of loving the enemy as a

baby

> > > has to put a crack in the self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend

our

> > > whole lives repairing it...

> > > > >

> > > > > Eliza

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

KF thanks for all the great recommendations - there's a few books there I

haven't read. The one about the spiritual legacy of the painful childhood

sounds especially interesting to me. That popcorn eating therapist and dog one

both would have set off alarm bells for me too!

Eliza

>

> P.S. i know what you mean about it being exhausting to find a therapist

> who can help, but please don't give up. you really have to interview

> several before you can decide if you want to invest all the time and energy

> in explaining what you need help with. and you have to trust your instincts

> a little. if something doesn't feel right at that first meeting, just don't

> go back. i went to one who ate popcorn while i talked. what was i...the

> entertainment? she must have been crazy herself. then i went to one who

> had two dogs in his office who desperately needed to be bathed and groomed.

> i LOVE dogs, but he didn't disclose that there were going to be dogs in my

> therapy session AND he didn't seem to be attending to their needs very

> well. how was he going to help me? i did not go back a second time to find

> out.

>

> plus, if you have a sort of PTSD from a life of responding to a mentally ill

> person, it can be very traumatic to re-tell your life events, even to

> someone who is competent. it is like discussing it keeps you swimming in

> the chaos. i have had a good therapist. i had to go to several bad ones

> before i found him, though. next to the good experience i had with him, the

> most help i have gotten is from this board, and from reading the following

> books:

>

> Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About

> Has Borderline Personality

>

Disorder<http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/\

1572246901/ref=sr_1_1?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1309778437 & sr=1-1>

> by

> T. Mason and Randi

>

Kreger<http://www.amazon.com/Randi-Kreger/e/B001JP2W0Q/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid\

=1309778433 & sr=1-1>

>

> Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

> Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile

>

Relationship<http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Borderline-Mother-Unpredictable\

-Relationship/dp/0765703319/ref=sr_1_1?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1309778407 & sr=1-1>

> by

> Ann

Lawson<http://www.amazon.com/-Ann-Lawson/e/B001KECQXY/ref=sr_ntt_srch_l\

nk_1?qid=1309778407 & sr=1-1>

>

> Trauma and Recovery: The Aftermath of Violence--from Domestic Abuse to

> Political

Terror<http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Recovery-Aftermath-Violence---Political/dp/0\

465087302/ref=sr_1_1?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1309778461 & sr=1-1>

> by

> Judith Herman

>

> Legacy of the Heart: The Spiritual Advantage of a Painful

>

Childhood<http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Heart-Spiritual-Advantage-Childhood/dp/06\

71797840/ref=sr_1_1?s=books & ie=UTF8 & qid=1309778492 & sr=1-1>

> by

> Wayne

Muller<http://www.amazon.com/Wayne-Muller/e/B001HCZ00A/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid\

=1309778492 & sr=1-1>

>

> Turning Stones: My Days and Nights with Children at Risk: A Caseworker's

>

Story<http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Stones-Nights-Children-Caseworkers/dp/044991\

2353/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1309778522 & sr=1-1>-

> by Marc

>

Parent<http://www.amazon.com/Marc-Parent/e/B000AQ3WE0/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?_enc\

oding=UTF8 & qid=1309778522 & sr=1-1>and

> Quindlen (foreword)

>

[Guest guest]

thanks N, I am actually looking into that. I think it might work for me. I have

always done alot better psychologically when I worked 2 jobs, anyway, so I think

if I had two areas of focus it would help. I am really good at finding items of

value in thrift shops and stuff so I am leaning more in that direction of

selling things, I would like to have my own store one day, like a consignment

shop.

Thanks for the post, thanks to the negative atmosphere I grew up in I think I

decide things are 'hopeless' too quickly and it's nice to be reminded that it

probably isn't.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi all, so I've been thinking lately about how growing up with a

crazy

> > > > parent can lead to damaging a person's natural self-defense reactions.

> > > > Imagine you've got this baby, this baby programmed to LOVE their primary

> > > > caregiver, the caregiver is crazy and does various abusive things, but

the

> > > > baby must still love the caregiver - baby has no choice. Now the baby is

a

> > > > child with the ability to move about and think, but still can the child

give

> > > > in to their natural reactions of self-defense or even express natural

> > > > aggressive feelings? Not if they value their well-being as it would

enrage

> > > > the crazy caregiver. Also not without huge cognitive dissonance with the

> > > > love they still feel for the caregiver.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So time goes forward we get educated, we get therapy, we set

> > > > boundaries, maybe break contact, maybe file restraining orders. But at

each

> > > > point how much psychological strain must this cause? And then extend it

out

> > > > into the world - when you meet a new potential friend or lover, can the

> > > > alarm bells go off as soon and loud as they could? can you take

protective

> > > > and defensive action when needed? what about when offensive action is

> > > > needed? To me it seems that initial experience of loving the enemy as a

baby

> > > > has to put a crack in the self-protective instinct. Then we get to spend

our

> > > > whole lives repairing it...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Eliza

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >