Grandchildren, PD Grandparents and Establishing Boundaries

[Guest guest]

Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who wrote

about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not a

mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I can

speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and Fada,

and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of other

large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on the

WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone by

saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something like, " I

have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you love to

visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want all of us

to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now: You are are

not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I may have

between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and activities,

anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my problems or

disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time. You

can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can welcome

questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my skateboarding, my

teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great guideline for the

grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and child-centered

conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring up a hot-potato

topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they do, you get to

say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later and never in

front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because the PD will be

calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say, " That's a good

question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on another call,

away from the kids. "

End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. " End

of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

AFB

[Guest guest]

WOW! Well said! If I could adopt this way of saying ones' truth, doing it in

a healthy and nice manner, maybe I wouldn't have to deal with this unhealthy

triangulation FOO crap and all the other manipulative ways that go with it.

But, in my particular situation, which many of you KOs know of, I cannot have my

child around their grand-nada or grand-fada AT ALL! There is no such thing in

my FOO as setting healthy boundaries. I did just that, 6 months ago, when I

had my first child. I sent out an email to my fada (with NPD) that I do not

want my child around one of his daughters for the first 3 years of his life, a

daughter my fada is EXTREMELY enmeshed with. Just until she got healthy, well,

stayed sober, and away from jail. See, she literally just got out of a 3 years

sentence for grand larceny (heroin drug related) the same month my son was

born. I also had some more boundaries, no holidays or vaca's while the other

certain other siblings/family were there. (the one out of jail and the my

other sibling, another 43 yr old queen BPD and her 3 soldier kids)Â And that's

just the paternal side. I can't even begin to tell you the backlash that I

have suffered over the

past 6 months since I set healthy boundaries for my son. Nasty emails from my

step-mom, confusing and guilt-ridden, manipulative emails from my fada, evil

hand-written letters in the mail from my jail-bird sibling, and even nasty

emails and texts from my one sibling, who I did somewhat have a normal

relationship with. She's even turned on me. Actually, my NPD Fada turned

even his own mom, my grandmother against me. The smear campaign continues on.

With my maternal side, my mom has had a VERY low-functioning case of waif BPD

for my whole 35 years of life. I went NC with her 6 years ago. It was the

hardest decision I ever had to make, but the best decision for me.

I will tell you KOs one thing: Christmas this year was high-functioning, loving,

all about my husband, our love, and the love for our child. There were no head

games, no guilt, no shaming, no triangulating, no anxiety, no sadness, no

anguish, no threats, NOTHING! Just a small threesome family, gathered around a

tree, opening presents, taking 3 million pictures and countless hours of video,

dinner, my son having his first real food, and LOVE!Â

I think it's been said best in these " chat-rooms " ::Â Dysfunctional families are

like a bucket of crawdads dying in a bucket. When one tries to crawl out and

escape, the others try to pull her back into the bucket, to die.

I am free at last, thank God almighty I am free at last!!!!!!!!

Love to all of you and I hope you all had a nice Christmas!

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 2:30 PM

Subject: Grandchildren, PD Grandparents and Establishing

Boundaries

Â

Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who wrote

about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not a

mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I can

speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and Fada,

and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of other

large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on the

WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone by

saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something like, " I

have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you love to

visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want all of us

to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now: You are are

not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I may have

between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and activities,

anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my problems or

disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time. You

can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can welcome

questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my skateboarding, my

teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great guideline for the

grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and child-centered

conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring up a hot-potato

topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they do, you get to

say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later and never in

front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because the PD will be

calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say, " That's a good

question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on another call,

away from the kids. "

End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. " End

of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

AFB

[Guest guest]

I think that public boundary-setting is probably very effective when the bpd

grandparents are only mildly to moderately affected by bpd and are more in the

" difficult people " category as opposed to the " human adder " category.

The Waif (bpd + dependent pd) and Hermit (bpd + avoidant pd) may view open,

public boundary-setting as a personal attack intended to shame/humiliate them.

The Queen bpds (bpd + narcissistic pd) tend to see boundary-setting as a

challenge to their authority and might lose control, go ballistic on you and

start screaming unprintable abuse at you in front of the kids. The Witch (bpd +

antisocial pd or psychopathy) might turn ice-cold passive-aggressive on you and

plan to " get you back " in some calculated, vindictive but plausibly deniable way

in the future.

I so agree that boundary-setting so that everyone is on the same page is

important, but the manner in which one does it may depend on how volatile or how

devious and calculating or downright dangerous your person with bpd actually is,

and how young or vulnerable your children are.

My own mother, recently deceased, for the most part did not respect or even

understand boundaries. Sister had to take it to the wall, play hard-ball with

our nada to get her to understand even very basic boundaries, such as " do not

denigrate my parenting decisions and undermine me as an authority figure in

front of my child; we can discuss your concerns in private, but not in front of

my little boy. " Nada repeatedly ignored this request and nearly got herself

ejected from Sister's car and left by the side of the freeway to make her own

way home one day, because she couldn't respect Sister's boundary.

So, in my nada's case, the only effective method was to go No Contact with her,

without JADE (justifying, arguing, defending or explaining the decision)

temporarily (on Sister's part) and more or less permanently (on my part.)

-Annie

>

> Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who wrote

about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not a

mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I can

speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and Fada,

and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of other

large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

>

> TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

>

> This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on the

WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

>

> I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

>

> The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone by

saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

>

> After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something

like, " I have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you

love to visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want

all of us to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now:

You are are not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I

may have between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and

activities, anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my

problems or disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

>

> It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time.

You can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can

welcome questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my

skateboarding, my teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great

guideline for the grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and

child-centered conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring

up a hot-potato topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they

do, you get to say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later

and never in front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because

the PD will be calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say,

" That's a good question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on

another call, away from the kids. "

>

> End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. "

End of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

>

> I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

> AFB

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this--I am sharing this with DH and wondering how best to utilize

this tactic.

Am also wondering why my sister and I never attempted the conference call dunk

with nada--but then Annie's post covers nada's likely response.

>

> Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who wrote

about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not a

mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I can

speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and Fada,

and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of other

large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

>

> TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

>

> This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on the

WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

>

> I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

>

> The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone by

saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

>

> After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something

like, " I have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you

love to visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want

all of us to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now:

You are are not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I

may have between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and

activities, anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my

problems or disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

>

> It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time.

You can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can

welcome questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my

skateboarding, my teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great

guideline for the grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and

child-centered conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring

up a hot-potato topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they

do, you get to say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later

and never in front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because

the PD will be calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say,

" That's a good question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on

another call, away from the kids. "

>

> End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. "

End of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

>

> I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

> AFB

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with Annie, that this would work on SOME PD's, but it would turn Queen's

and Witches into ticking time bombs. My own nada proved that beyond the shadow

of a doubt by pulling out her revenge against me about " lecturing her " almost

four years ago. The fact that she pulled this off mere days after my husbands

death just emphasizes how terribly this can go for us KO's. That being said, I

have already had this discussion with my son, about nada trying to engage him in

conversation about the relationship between her and me. We have been role

playing and rehearsing what he should say to her when the moment comes when she

tries to " lure " him to the dark side. ;-) I have even gone to the lengths of

telling him that he can tell nada that about ANY subject that she starts

discussing that makes him uncomfortable. I told him that just because he is only

twelve doesn't mean that he has to listen to whatever it is she, or anyone else

for that matter, wants to talk about. I truly feel that we need to empower our

children to be their own person and to listen to that little voice that tells

them that something isn't right. I hate that my son is having to grow up so

quickly, but I am so proud of how he is handling himself.

C

> >

> > Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who

wrote about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not

a mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I

can speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and

Fada, and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of

other large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

> >

> > TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

> >

> > This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on

the WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

> >

> > I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

> >

> > The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone

by saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

> >

> > After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something

like, " I have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you

love to visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want

all of us to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now:

You are are not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I

may have between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and

activities, anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my

problems or disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

> >

> > It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time.

You can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can

welcome questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my

skateboarding, my teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great

guideline for the grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and

child-centered conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring

up a hot-potato topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they

do, you get to say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later

and never in front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because

the PD will be calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say,

" That's a good question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on

another call, away from the kids. "

> >

> > End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. "

End of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

> >

> > I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

> > AFB

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hey fellow-KOs thanks for weighing in. The comments were great ranging from " why

didn't I try that " to " don't think it would work for me. " I worked hard on it

and couldn't ask for better feedback. Thanks a bunch.

AFB

>

> Hi All, this is my response to a request from CmeBfree and Echobabe who wrote

about difficulties with their PD parents and their own children. I am not a

mental health professional and in no way qualified to dispense advice. But I can

speak from my experience as a KO successfully in NC with my own Nada and Fada,

and now " adopted " for holidays and family gatherings with a handful of other

large, healthy families. The following is basically a field report from my

observations of happy families.

>

> TRIANGULATION is one definition used in mental health where one person plays

another against a third. In my experience it's a triangle of communication where

one person doesn't want to speak directly with another, so they call in a third

to help manipulate or pressure the other.

>

> This kind of behavior on the part of Nadas and Fadas is well documented on the

WTO, and it's particularly awful when GrandNadas and GrandFadas reach out to

grandchildren to triangulate with them around their own parents. Parents caught

in the middle between two generations ask the question in anguish: How do I stop

this?

>

> I've seen it mitigated by open and honest communication between parents and

children. It works like this: If a grandparent is calling grandchildren aside to

complain about the way their parents are treating them, the triangulation can be

stopped in its tracks with a group phone call so everybody is put on the same

page at once. No back and forth, no more He said, She said. It looks like this:

>

> The parent(s) (the middle generation) gather the children around the phone by

saying something like, " I have something to say to you and GrandNada/Fada, so

please come here and I'll put everybody on speakerphone. "

>

> After dialing the grandparent and exchanging greetings you say something

like, " I have something to say that I want everyone to hear. Kids, I know you

love to visit with Grandma and Grandpa and I want that to continue and I want

all of us to be happy, so I have one rule that I'm going to put in place now:

You are are not allowed to discuss any problems that Grandma and Grandpa and I

may have between us. Feel free to talk about school, your friends and

activities, anything under the sun EXCEPT anything that has to do with my

problems or disagreements with Grandma or Grandpa. Every family has problems and

disagreements from time to time. Happy families keep those conversations among

the adults, children do not share in the discussion. I'm making this rule

because our happiness as a family depends on it. "

>

> It's up to you whether you want to open the floor to questions at that time.

You can simply tell everybody you want them to think about it, or you can

welcome questions. Children usually ask: " Can I talk about my frog, my

skateboarding, my teacher? " The answer is " Yes, of course! " and it's a great

guideline for the grandparents to hear because these are appropriate and

child-centered conversations. It's highly unlikely the grandparents will bring

up a hot-potato topic at that moment, most likely they'll be silent. But if they

do, you get to say, " No, that's off limits. We need to speak about that later

and never in front of the children. " If they argue, which is unlikely because

the PD will be calling themselves out,( but I guess it could happen) you say,

" That's a good question and I'm going to continue this conversation with you on

another call, away from the kids. "

>

> End by saying, " Thank you kids, for listening and for respecting my wishes. "

End of call, or go on to chat about other topics. The important thing is that

children see you, as a parent, setting boundaries openly and honestly with

everybody at once. It puts a stake in the heart of triangulation and puts the

importance of family happiness right in front of children. Group happiness never

crosses the mind of a BPD/NPD, it's a foreign as Mars to them. But all happy

families are mindful of group happiness and have guidelines and boundaries set

by the adults, to safeguard it.

>

> I welcome any comments or suggestions. Best,

> AFB

>