Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Comments inserted, because I just couldn't let this one pass... " So it's ok for Dudley to be sick of hearing about how dangerous ground EMS is, but it's not ok for air EMS to be sick of hearing the issues? " I wasn't debating with Dudley. I was debating with you. Actually, it was more along the lines of wondering why you're so defensive than an actual debate. " The problem is not that you, or or anyone else for that matter have issue and point out problems with the industry, it is that you all start doing it the second there is a crash pointing fingers at all the horrible air ems folks out there, making rash statements about how unnecessary air EMS is, yet each of you today in this thread have agreed with me that air EMS is necessary in the rural areas. " It would help to actually read the replies, rather than just project your own defensiveness. Nowhere did I say - nor anyone else, for that matter - that helicopter EMS is unnecessary. Hell, it may even be necessary - on a limited basis - in urban areas, too, given traffic congestion and variability in resources. What *many* of us have said, is that far too often, helicopter EMS is used *unnecessarily.* Do you not recognize the distinction? I'd hope you do, because it's a big distinction, but the tone of your replies suggests that you do not. " Don't bash the crews and what they do, bash the greedy service owners who have created the problem by only putting helos in metropolis areas where the big bucks are. " How did we get from a discussion on the need for greater safety standards and regulation of HEMS to the suggestion that I'm bashing flight medics? Dude, I *was* a flight medic (albeit only as a relief medic). The only time you'll *ever* hear me bash another provider is because they're idiots, not because of what vehicle they use to get to and from the scene. And you know 's point about the dilution of skill sets and experience with the proliferation of helicopter EMS? It's a damned good point. There was once a time when flight medics were the cream of the crop. That is still true in some areas. In others, where HEMS abuse is rampant, the primary job qualification seems to be Pulse, Patch, and Pounds weighed...although not necessarily in that order. I'm assuming you're a flight medic, Rick. In that vein, I can see how these HEMS accidents hit very close to home, and the resultant brouhaha smacks of dancing on the graves of your brother and sister flight medics...but still, it has to be said. Because very simply, those greedy service owners aren't going to rein in the cash cow on their own, and your surviving brothers and sisters in the flight services ain't bitching loud enough to be heard. Whether that is because they don't have the audience that Bledsoe does, or because they fear for their jobs, remains to be seen. But what would help is if the flight medics and nurses themselves rallied together behind someone like Bledsoe, rather than getting unreasonably defensive every time something negative is said about HEMS practices. Like you, for example. " How many ground EMS CEO's do you think are out there that wouldn't fight against safety regulations that would add $20,000 to the cost of a box, regulate the ability to work a crew for 24 or 48 hours or increase training requirements. " Pretty much all of them. Of course, much of that may be that Medicare reimbursement for ground EMS transport currently runs at about 70% of the actual *cost* of doing said transport. I strongly suspect the same is not true of HEMS...otherwise there wouldn't have been such a proliferation of flight services in recent years. There would be no money in it. " Sometimes draconian regulations by outside people are exactly what is needed. You say it like it's a bad thing. " It *is* a bad thing, if the people drafting the regulations don't understand the fundamentals of providing EMS. Right now, it seems we have a binary solution set: Either remove much of the reimbursement incentive from HEMS, and see many of the fly-by-night (even when they shouldn't, and pun intended) fold, leaving only the better services left to run HEMS, or keep reimbursement as it is, and require (preferably, from within the industry) those greedy service owners to spend some of those profits on all those expensive regulations, training and flight safety doodads. Which do you prefer? -- Grayson, CCEMT-P www.kellygrayson.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 wrote, " Whether that is because they don't have the audience that Bledsoe does, or because they fear for their jobs, remains to be seen. But what would help is if the flight medics and nurses themselves rallied together behind someone like Bledsoe, rather than getting unreasonably defensive every time something negative is said about HEMS practices. " Several points: 1. I am lucky to have an " audience " and I understand the responsibility that goes along with that. I owe this to a " plan " Jim Page laid out for me 10 years ago. 2. Such an " audience " can be used for the greater good and I will forever use it for that. 3. The article on EMS1.com this month was hard on the HEMS people. I received over 100 emails and not a single negative one. Most were from flight crews. I even received an apology from a flight nurse who questioned my motives. I have stayed on-point and on-message on HEMS-not just post crash. But, post-crash is when the media seeks you out and you must talk when the opportunity is presented. 4. The response from the flight medicine community to me has been cordial, respectful, humble, and thankful. They are a good lot. 5. There is a lot of emotion in this. We have to stick to the science. There is a role for HEMS. We need to work together to define it. Everybody watch the NBC Evening News with tonight and see how big an ass I made of myself. At least you can peek into my study. This has the media's full attention. I did an interview with AP, National Public Radio, the New York Times, and three Arizona radio stations (in addition to NBC). I am supposed to do something later with the BBC. The overall message is that HEMS is important, yet abused. It should be a part of the EMS system. The flight crews are somewhat victims. My words on this are very measured. E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, Texas Mark Your Calendars! EMStock 2008 September 25-28, 2008 http://www.emstock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 So why does Texas DPS, New Mexico DPS, AZ DPS, the Cities of Tucson, El Paso, Fort Worth (just the places I drove last week and saw them) still use them? Tucson's just down the road where one of the Crown Vic disasters occurred, burning the entire face off the officer who, thankfully survived, and is now a homicide detective. Phoenix switched, but Tucson hasn't. Is this because folks are inherently stupid or what? GG > > It took 2 tragic deaths of peace officers to virtually ban Crown Vics from > patrol service.....I > ____________ ________ ________ _ > From: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem [texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem] On Behalf Of > lawrence verrett [lgverrett@...] > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:40 PM > To: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem > Subject: Re: Food for thought > > At some point the FAA and the NTSB need to step in and say enough is enough. > If this was any other sector of commercial aviation they would have already > done so. This crash raye would not be aceptable in the millitary so why is it > so in the civilian sector? I shall contact the FAA and ask them about this. > Enough is enough. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I am wondering when the flight grunts, the pilots, medics, and nurses, are going to rise up and demand that their corporate masters get a clue? It is they who get killed, not the bastards in Armani suits sitting around counting their money. I have had at least three friends get fired from HEMS jobs in the last three years because they refused to fly with a pilot who was inexperienced and dangerous. I know one medic who almost got fired because she happened to refuse to fly in a bird that had a puddle of diesel fuel in its belly. I lost a friend in a flight that never should have happened. The competing service refused it because of weather, but his service wanted to prove that their ship had big balls hanging down from it, and three innocent people died. In all these cases, it was the damn SUITS who applied the pressure to make the flight. It was THEY who hired inexperienced pilots. It was THEY who fired those who complained. I currently have at least 5 friends flying, and I worry about them every day. I worry about them because the services they work for are lax in maintenance, continually put pressure on them to fly in inappropriate weather, use birds that are 30 years old and unequipped for IFR, night vision, and so forth. I have one friend who survived TWO hard landings that essentially totalled the bird. I used to fly and I loved it. I still get a thrill when the bird lifts off. But I quit after two forced landings. One of my favorite pilots used to say that a helicopter is 100,000 parts held together by hope. The older the bird, the stronger the hope has to be. HEMS is dangerous. GEMS is dangerous, but you have a hell of a better chance in a ground ambulance than you do in a helo in an emergency. Yes, HEMS has a place, but it's in rural America, not in the urban areas for the most part. Here in Tucson, they send the bird 5 miles, spend 20 minutes on scene, and the ground ambulance transporting the " stable " patients gets to the trauma center before they do. What kind of self-deception drives that? Why are there an armada of helos in the Dallas-Ft Worth area, all competing with each other to the death (of their crews, not them). Because it's all about MONEY. As much as I hate state regulation, it is time that something is done to control not only HEMS but also ground EMS. Why in God's name should there be over 100 ambulance services in Dallas County? Thank you, Bledsoe, for your guts and courage in standing up for what is right. Now, let's get behind and make something happen. Write, call, email your Congressmen and your state representatives. Talk to the Governor. Write to GETAC. Write to Maxie, not to convince him (he doesn't need convincing) but so that he can hold up your message when he testifies to the legislative committees and say how many of you have contacted him about this. There may very well be little that DSHS can do to regulate the HEMS industry. There are serious questions about jurisdiction. Fine. Let's still keep the pressure on. I want you all to think about this. How many patients have been killed in HEMS accidents who didn't even need HEMS to begin with? For those of you who fly, how many of your patients got discharged before you got back to base? We all know this. The whole EMS industry is like a bunch of teenagers trying to enact rules for sex and drinking. We are still young and immature, but we need to grow up. GG > > " Could it be because every time a helicopter crashes, the " ground > pounders " raise up in arms with the " here we go again, when will someone > step in and stop all this air ambulance madness " . " > > Not to piss in your Wheaties, Rick, and that is really not my intent... > > ...but that's *exactly* what we should be doing. Someone needs to raise > a hue and cry about the HEMS industry - not that it isn't a needed > component of EMS overall, because it is - but because the safety record > is abominable. And rather than have HEMS industry insiders leading the > charge for stricter standards, they're resisting it at every turn. That > leaves the ground pounders to point out the problems, who are then > accused of having an ax to grind by those recalcitrant HEMS industry > insiders. > > You rightly point out that ground EMS has its safety issues as well. RLS > responses, long shifts, shoddy ambulance design - both in handling and > crew safety features - are *all* things ground EMS needs to address. > > Nadine Levick lectures all over this country about ground ambulance > accidents, vehicle design and safety issues. Her talks are popular, > well-attended and well-received by those of us who practice ground EMS. > She's known throughout the industry as a safety advocate with the best > interests of EMS crews at heart. More and more people are listening to > what she has to say. > > Conversely, who decries the same lack of safety standards in HEMS, with > the same reach? *One* lonely voice - Bledsoe - and every time he > points out the insanity, he is pilloried by everyone in flight suits as > that outsider kook DO from Midlothian who hates EMS helicopters. > > Something powerfully wrong with that picture, and unless something is > done soon from the *inside*, pretty soon you're gonna see draconian > regulations implemented by people from the *outside*, who will make > Bledsoe look like your best friend. > > Of course, YMMV... > > -- > Grayson, CCEMT-P > www.kellygrayson. ww > > ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 The comment about dual pilots is a very interesting idea. When you think about it, the only time you see a single pilot in aviation is recreational general aviation and some smaller charter services, which, generally speaking, is pretty easy flying. Yet, the more challenging aviation areas (commercial, military) pretty much all have dual pilots. I consider HEMS " challenging aviation " , because these pilots are going to places they've never been before, landing on fields, highways, etc, instead of airports where they have charts. Hmmm........... Bledsoe, DO wrote: > > Dudley wrote, " Dr. Bledsoe, we need to call for a 72 to 96 hour moratorium > on Air Medical Flights.? Ground them all, mandate some safety work and > policy review...and the FAA needs to get off their politically insensitive > back-sides and mandate REAL safety improvements in these > helicopters...terrain avoidance, collision avoidance, night vision > goggles, > dual engines, flight recorders and maybe even dual pilots...the air > medical > industry wants to hide behind the Federal Airline Deregulation Rules when > individual states try to regulate them, then have them step up to the big > boy microphone and live by it all the time? " > > I mentioned the need for a national stand down on Flightweb. The responses > seem interested. Who would call it? Would it be mandatory? I have done 4-5 > interviews this AM and mentioned it (when I can). I think people will have > to listen now. I have spoken with some big outlets today (NPR, AP, New > York > Times and soon NBC). I'll relay the message. But, remember, to the > helicopter community I am some disgruntled yahoo from Texas who hates > HEMS. > Actually, I love HEMS. I hate to see good people die when the benefits for > the patient do not outweigh the risks. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Yep. The safety concerns " came aprart. " That's what happens in most preventable accidents. Pilots know very well what the rules are. Yet, some of them violate them. They do it because they're complacent, bored, and assume that nothing can go wrong, go wrong, go wrong, go wrong...... If a regular civilian private pilot makes a big mistake in communication, he's raked over the coals. But if an HEMS pilot chooses to ignore the rules, bend the rules, or is just oblivious to the rules, what happens? Well he usually ends up as a mass of protoplasm inspected by the local medical examiner. Where is the FAA in this? Absent. GG ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Has anyone looked at one pilot versus 2 in HEMS? NJ's state based program has always used 2 pilots and to my knowledge never had even a " hard landing " . Does MD fly with 2 or with 1? I've never seen a private use 2 but I've not interacted with many. LNM from Baku, Azerbaijan Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Re: Food for Thought The comment about dual pilots is a very interesting idea. When you think about it, the only time you see a single pilot in aviation is recreational general aviation and some smaller charter services, which, generally speaking, is pretty easy flying. Yet, the more challenging aviation areas (commercial, military) pretty much all have dual pilots. I consider HEMS " challenging aviation " , because these pilots are going to places they've never been before, landing on fields, highways, etc, instead of airports where they have charts. Hmmm........... Bledsoe, DO wrote: > > Dudley wrote, " Dr. Bledsoe, we need to call for a 72 to 96 hour moratorium > on Air Medical Flights.? Ground them all, mandate some safety work and > policy review...and the FAA needs to get off their politically insensitive > back-sides and mandate REAL safety improvements in these > helicopters...terrain avoidance, collision avoidance, night vision > goggles, > dual engines, flight recorders and maybe even dual pilots...the air > medical > industry wants to hide behind the Federal Airline Deregulation Rules when > individual states try to regulate them, then have them step up to the big > boy microphone and live by it all the time? " > > I mentioned the need for a national stand down on Flightweb. The responses > seem interested. Who would call it? Would it be mandatory? I have done 4-5 > interviews this AM and mentioned it (when I can). I think people will have > to listen now. I have spoken with some big outlets today (NPR, AP, New > York > Times and soon NBC). I'll relay the message. But, remember, to the > helicopter community I am some disgruntled yahoo from Texas who hates > HEMS. > Actually, I love HEMS. I hate to see good people die when the benefits for > the patient do not outweigh the risks. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Allow me to add two cents to this, as I have flown into that hospital as a crewmember. IME, unless things have changed significantly in FLG, there is one approach to the Hospital LZ due to noise abatement, both for the hospital and for surrounding residences and businesses. From the video I have seen, where those birds came together was in the general vicinity of that approach. It is uncontrolled and a VFR approach (granted that may have changed with greater use of GPS, but You never know) IOW 'see and be seen'... a high potential for 'traffic conflicts'. Mitigation- It used to be that if there was a potential conflict, we found that out either A. monitoring the general aircraft frequency or B. a heads up from the ER when we gave report, usually at 5 minutes inbound. If " B " , we advised the pilot to contact the other bird on " A " . There was no obligation to do this on the ED's part, but a courtesy and an understood need for safety. As with any incident, the links in the safety chain came apart and you saw one of the potential outcomes :.( " A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. " Proverbs 22:3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Its been a while since I looked and things may have changed, but MD State Police flew with 2 pilots. Two pilots aren't necessarily better than one but the accident rate for 2 pilot crews is considerably lower than single pilot. The only accident involving a two pilot crew that I'm aware of was in Lexington, KY and that was a positioning flight. The crew flew into the mountain in a bad case of get-home-itis. Want to minimize the risk for HEMS? Require 2 pilot crews with twin engine aircraft, full IFR with flight directors, radar altimeters, and synthetic visison. Can that requirement be supported? Probably not from an economical standpoint. Kirk EMT-B In a message dated 7/1/2008 00:06:52 Central Daylight Time, lnmolino@... writes: Has anyone looked at one pilot versus 2 in HEMS? NJ's state based program has always used 2 pilots and to my knowledge never had even a " hard landing " . Does MD fly with 2 or with 1? I've never seen a private use 2 but I've not interacted with many. LNM from Baku, Azerbaijan Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Re: Food for Thought The comment about dual pilots is a very interesting idea. When you think about it, the only time you see a single pilot in aviation is recreational general aviation and some smaller charter services, which, generally speaking, is pretty easy flying. Yet, the more challenging aviation areas (commercial, military) pretty much all have dual pilots. I consider HEMS " challenging aviation " , because these pilots are going to places they've never been before, landing on fields, highways, etc, instead of airports where they have charts. Hmmm........... Bledsoe, DO wrote: > > Dudley wrote, " Dr. Bledsoe, we need to call for a 72 to 96 hour moratorium > on Air Medical Flights.? Ground them all, mandate some safety work and > policy review...and the FAA needs to get off their politically insensitive > back-sides and mandate REAL safety improvements in these > helicopters...terrain avoidance, collision avoidance, night vision > goggles, > dual engines, flight recorders and maybe even dual pilots...the air > medical > industry wants to hide behind the Federal Airline Deregulation Rules when > individual states try to regulate them, then have them step up to the big > boy microphone and live by it all the time? " > > I mentioned the need for a national stand down on Flightweb. The responses > seem interested. Who would call it? Would it be mandatory? I have done 4-5 > interviews this AM and mentioned it (when I can). I think people will have > to listen now. I have spoken with some big outlets today (NPR, AP, New > York > Times and soon NBC). I'll relay the message. But, remember, to the > helicopter community I am some disgruntled yahoo from Texas who hates > HEMS. > Actually, I love HEMS. I hate to see good people die when the benefits for > the patient do not outweigh the risks. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Ah but is it not how MD, DE and NJ do their state wide systems? How is it that NJ up until very recent had no non-state owned HEMS operating from within its boarders? Now understand PA, DE, NY and MD birds flew routinely but to NJ but only when dispatched by a regional state based center which choose what birds went where. LNM from Baku, Azerbaijan Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Re: Food for Thought The comment about dual pilots is a very interesting idea. When you think about it, the only time you see a single pilot in aviation is recreational general aviation and some smaller charter services, which, generally speaking, is pretty easy flying. Yet, the more challenging aviation areas (commercial, military) pretty much all have dual pilots. I consider HEMS " challenging aviation " , because these pilots are going to places they've never been before, landing on fields, highways, etc, instead of airports where they have charts. Hmmm........... Bledsoe, DO wrote: > > Dudley wrote, " Dr. Bledsoe, we need to call for a 72 to 96 hour moratorium > on Air Medical Flights.? Ground them all, mandate some safety work and > policy review...and the FAA needs to get off their politically insensitive > back-sides and mandate REAL safety improvements in these > helicopters...terrain avoidance, collision avoidance, night vision > goggles, > dual engines, flight recorders and maybe even dual pilots...the air > medical > industry wants to hide behind the Federal Airline Deregulation Rules when > individual states try to regulate them, then have them step up to the big > boy microphone and live by it all the time? " > > I mentioned the need for a national stand down on Flightweb. The responses > seem interested. Who would call it? Would it be mandatory? I have done 4-5 > interviews this AM and mentioned it (when I can). I think people will have > to listen now. I have spoken with some big outlets today (NPR, AP, New > York > Times and soon NBC). I'll relay the message. But, remember, to the > helicopter community I am some disgruntled yahoo from Texas who hates > HEMS. > Actually, I love HEMS. I hate to see good people die when the benefits for > the patient do not outweigh the risks. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I spoke with the FAA just now and talked to a person in the 200 Division which handles HEMS . The person I spoke with person ( name with held) and he told me that this morning at 7 :00 am EST the hammer dropped from on high about the HEMS issue. They are now looking into it and because it is a crash investigation at it onset he could 1. not comment on it because he is a staffer and 2. He had no information to give even if he could other than to say 'We are looking into it.' .. He did point me towards the FAA Public Affairs page where a document is either inplace or will be that explans what the FAA has done so far and certain recomendations that the FAA has issued. He stressed to me that he is not a manager type so he was not 100% correct on what the document may or maynot say but thought it would be a good thing for people to read. If anyone wants the number to the Aviation Transportation Division 200 Branch here it is. . I am not a helo medic but know people who are. Like you all, I have whitnessed times when a helo was called and used when GEMS would have been beter or no change in the out come. The only thing I can say is that for supervisor types, review your companies policy as it pretains the HEMS, train your medics on when to call. Hospital types should do the same. Lastly, and I beleve this is the most important group but they are not on the website, the helo companies themselves need to take a long hard look at how they are flying and ask if they are doing it right.To get to the PA office I had to search the FAA website to find it. I did not see any such dicument but that means nothing. Lawrence wegandy1938@... wrote: I am wondering when the flight grunts, the pilots, medics, and nurses, are going to rise up and demand that their corporate masters get a clue? It is they who get killed, not the bastards in Armani suits sitting around counting their money. I have had at least three friends get fired from HEMS jobs in the last three years because they refused to fly with a pilot who was inexperienced and dangerous. I know one medic who almost got fired because she happened to refuse to fly in a bird that had a puddle of diesel fuel in its belly. I lost a friend in a flight that never should have happened. The competing service refused it because of weather, but his service wanted to prove that their ship had big balls hanging down from it, and three innocent people died. In all these cases, it was the damn SUITS who applied the pressure to make the flight. It was THEY who hired inexperienced pilots. It was THEY who fired those who complained. I currently have at least 5 friends flying, and I worry about them every day. I worry about them because the services they work for are lax in maintenance, continually put pressure on them to fly in inappropriate weather, use birds that are 30 years old and unequipped for IFR, night vision, and so forth. I have one friend who survived TWO hard landings that essentially totalled the bird. I used to fly and I loved it. I still get a thrill when the bird lifts off. But I quit after two forced landings. One of my favorite pilots used to say that a helicopter is 100,000 parts held together by hope. The older the bird, the stronger the hope has to be. HEMS is dangerous. GEMS is dangerous, but you have a hell of a better chance in a ground ambulance than you do in a helo in an emergency. Yes, HEMS has a place, but it's in rural America, not in the urban areas for the most part. Here in Tucson, they send the bird 5 miles, spend 20 minutes on scene, and the ground ambulance transporting the " stable " patients gets to the trauma center before they do. What kind of self-deception drives that? Why are there an armada of helos in the Dallas-Ft Worth area, all competing with each other to the death (of their crews, not them). Because it's all about MONEY. As much as I hate state regulation, it is time that something is done to control not only HEMS but also ground EMS. Why in God's name should there be over 100 ambulance services in Dallas County? Thank you, Bledsoe, for your guts and courage in standing up for what is right. Now, let's get behind and make something happen. Write, call, email your Congressmen and your state representatives. Talk to the Governor. Write to GETAC. Write to Maxie, not to convince him (he doesn't need convincing) but so that he can hold up your message when he testifies to the legislative committees and say how many of you have contacted him about this. There may very well be little that DSHS can do to regulate the HEMS industry. There are serious questions about jurisdiction. Fine. Let's still keep the pressure on. I want you all to think about this. How many patients have been killed in HEMS accidents who didn't even need HEMS to begin with? For those of you who fly, how many of your patients got discharged before you got back to base? We all know this. The whole EMS industry is like a bunch of teenagers trying to enact rules for sex and drinking. We are still young and immature, but we need to grow up. GG > > " Could it be because every time a helicopter crashes, the " ground > pounders " raise up in arms with the " here we go again, when will someone > step in and stop all this air ambulance madness " . " > > Not to piss in your Wheaties, Rick, and that is really not my intent... > > ...but that's *exactly* what we should be doing. Someone needs to raise > a hue and cry about the HEMS industry - not that it isn't a needed > component of EMS overall, because it is - but because the safety record > is abominable. And rather than have HEMS industry insiders leading the > charge for stricter standards, they're resisting it at every turn. That > leaves the ground pounders to point out the problems, who are then > accused of having an ax to grind by those recalcitrant HEMS industry > insiders. > > You rightly point out that ground EMS has its safety issues as well. RLS > responses, long shifts, shoddy ambulance design - both in handling and > crew safety features - are *all* things ground EMS needs to address. > > Nadine Levick lectures all over this country about ground ambulance > accidents, vehicle design and safety issues. Her talks are popular, > well-attended and well-received by those of us who practice ground EMS. > She's known throughout the industry as a safety advocate with the best > interests of EMS crews at heart. More and more people are listening to > what she has to say. > > Conversely, who decries the same lack of safety standards in HEMS, with > the same reach? *One* lonely voice - Bledsoe - and every time he > points out the insanity, he is pilloried by everyone in flight suits as > that outsider kook DO from Midlothian who hates EMS helicopters. > > Something powerfully wrong with that picture, and unless something is > done soon from the *inside*, pretty soon you're gonna see draconian > regulations implemented by people from the *outside*, who will make > Bledsoe look like your best friend. > > Of course, YMMV... > > -- > Grayson, CCEMT-P > www.kellygrayson. ww > > ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Molino wrote: " Show me where Bledsoe has ever called for the abolishing of HEMS? " Or any other poster on this thread, for that matter. A little hyperbole goes a long way, apparently. -- Grayson, CCEMT-P www.kellygrayson.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 " One other question, when you bash another medic because he/she is an idiot, is that because you personally witnessed that idiocy or is it based on a one sided news report about the incident? " If there is anything I have learned in my years in EMS, it's that everyone is an expert about someone else's patient. Based on that observation, I limit my provider bashing to the incidents I have personally witnessed. -- Grayson, CCEMT-P www.kellygrayson.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Has anyone taken into consideration that one of the major reasons that there are so many HEMS, and that maybe one of the reasons that they take some of the risks that they do is the almighty dollar. I don't know for certain that they are getting pressure from (as Gene put it the suits) but I feel quit comfortable in saying that HEMS are probably pushing very hard for all of the transports they can get. At some point Medicare, and the insurance companies need to take a long hard look at helicopter transports, because this costs to everybody, especially in terms of higher insurance premiums. Just my thoughts. > I am wondering when the flight grunts, the pilots, medics, and nurses, are > going to rise up and demand that their corporate masters get a clue? > > It is they who get killed, not the bastards in Armani suits sitting around > counting their money. > > I have had at least three friends get fired from HEMS jobs in the last three > years because they refused to fly with a pilot who was inexperienced and > dangerous. I know one medic who almost got fired because she happened to refuse > to fly in a bird that had a puddle of diesel fuel in its belly. > > I lost a friend in a flight that never should have happened. The competing > service refused it because of weather, but his service wanted to prove that > their ship had big balls hanging down from it, and three innocent people died. > > In all these cases, it was the damn SUITS who applied the pressure to make > the flight. It was THEY who hired inexperienced pilots. It was THEY who fired > those who complained. > > I currently have at least 5 friends flying, and I worry about them every day. > I worry about them because the services they work for are lax in > maintenance, continually put pressure on them to fly in inappropriate weather, use birds > that are 30 years old and unequipped for IFR, night vision, and so forth. I > have one friend who survived TWO hard landings that essentially totalled the > bird. > > I used to fly and I loved it. I still get a thrill when the bird lifts off. > But I quit after two forced landings. One of my favorite pilots used to > say that a helicopter is 100,000 parts held together by hope. The older the > bird, the stronger the hope has to be. > > HEMS is dangerous. GEMS is dangerous, but you have a hell of a better > chance in a ground ambulance than you do in a helo in an emergency. > > Yes, HEMS has a place, but it's in rural America, not in the urban areas for > the most part. Here in Tucson, they send the bird 5 miles, spend 20 minutes > on scene, and the ground ambulance transporting the " stable " patients gets to > the trauma center before they do. What kind of self-deception drives that? > > Why are there an armada of helos in the Dallas-Ft Worth area, all competing > with each other to the death (of their crews, not them). Because it's all > about MONEY. > > As much as I hate state regulation, it is time that something is done to > control not only HEMS but also ground EMS. Why in God's name should there be > over 100 ambulance services in Dallas County? > > Thank you, Bledsoe, for your guts and courage in standing up for what > is right. Now, let's get behind and make something happen. Write, > call, email your Congressmen and your state representatives. Talk to the > Governor. Write to GETAC. Write to Maxie, not to convince him (he doesn't need > convincing) but so that he can hold up your message when he testifies to the > legislative committees and say how many of you have contacted him about this. > > There may very well be little that DSHS can do to regulate the HEMS industry. > There are serious questions about jurisdiction. Fine. Let's still keep > the pressure on. > > I want you all to think about this. How many patients have been killed in > HEMS accidents who didn't even need HEMS to begin with? > > For those of you who fly, how many of your patients got discharged before you > got back to base? > > We all know this. > > The whole EMS industry is like a bunch of teenagers trying to enact rules for > sex and drinking. We are still young and immature, but we need to grow up. > > GG > > > > > > > " Could it be because every time a helicopter crashes, the " ground > > pounders " raise up in arms with the " here we go again, when will someone > > step in and stop all this air ambulance madness " . " > > > > Not to piss in your Wheaties, Rick, and that is really not my intent... > > > > ...but that's *exactly* what we should be doing. Someone needs to raise > > a hue and cry about the HEMS industry - not that it isn't a needed > > component of EMS overall, because it is - but because the safety record > > is abominable. And rather than have HEMS industry insiders leading the > > charge for stricter standards, they're resisting it at every turn. That > > leaves the ground pounders to point out the problems, who are then > > accused of having an ax to grind by those recalcitrant HEMS industry > > insiders. > > > > You rightly point out that ground EMS has its safety issues as well. RLS > > responses, long shifts, shoddy ambulance design - both in handling and > > crew safety features - are *all* things ground EMS needs to address. > > > > Nadine Levick lectures all over this country about ground ambulance > > accidents, vehicle design and safety issues. Her talks are popular, > > well-attended and well-received by those of us who practice ground EMS. > > She's known throughout the industry as a safety advocate with the best > > interests of EMS crews at heart. More and more people are listening to > > what she has to say. > > > > Conversely, who decries the same lack of safety standards in HEMS, with > > the same reach? *One* lonely voice - Bledsoe - and every time he > > points out the insanity, he is pilloried by everyone in flight suits as > > that outsider kook DO from Midlothian who hates EMS helicopters. > > > > Something powerfully wrong with that picture, and unless something is > > done soon from the *inside*, pretty soon you're gonna see draconian > > regulations implemented by people from the *outside*, who will make > > Bledsoe look like your best friend. > > > > Of course, YMMV... > > > > -- > > Grayson, CCEMT-P > > www.kellygrayson. ww > > > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 You get pressure from all sorts of places. I do know that management will raise a fuss when a flight is turned down. A friend of mine was launched on a night scene. Dispatch gave them the wrong coordinates, the weather wasn't really great although still VFR, but then the GPS started going flakey. The medic said turn around so under the " 3 to go, 1 to stay " concept, the pilot turned around. The patient was transported by another aircraft (same service). All of the crew was chastised by management for turning around. We once turned down a flight to go pick up an already deceased person. The weather was below our operational minimums and was on the raw edge of our operating radius. Our marketing department was pleading with us to make an exception and the victim's family was also pushing us to go. Our decision held and our local management agreed with us. Then there's the " hero " aspect that has to be overcome. Pilots tend to be mission oriented, medics tend to be " save the victim " oriented. Combine the two and you've got a potentially lethal mix. Recognizing that, as callous as it sounds, the victim is just another piece of cargo and that its not worth killing more people to save a few minutes is one of those difficult lessons. Kirk EMT-B In a message dated 7/1/2008 18:34:56 Central Daylight Time, markpo@... writes: Has anyone taken into consideration that one of the major reasons that there are so many HEMS, and that maybe one of the reasons that they take some of the risks that they do is the almighty dollar. I don't know for certain that they are getting pressure from (as Gene put it the suits) but I feel quit comfortable in saying that HEMS are probably pushing very hard for all of the transports they can get. At some point Medicare, and the insurance companies need to take a long hard look at helicopter transports, because this costs to everybody, especially in terms of higher insurance premiums. Just my thoughts. > I am wondering when the flight grunts, the pilots, medics, and nurses, are > going to rise up and demand that their corporate masters get a clue? > > It is they who get killed, not the bastards in Armani suits sitting around > counting their money. > > I have had at least three friends get fired from HEMS jobs in the last three > years because they refused to fly with a pilot who was inexperienced and > dangerous. I know one medic who almost got fired because she happened to refuse > to fly in a bird that had a puddle of diesel fuel in its belly. > > I lost a friend in a flight that never should have happened. The competing > service refused it because of weather, but his service wanted to prove that > their ship had big balls hanging down from it, and three innocent people died. > > In all these cases, it was the damn SUITS who applied the pressure to make > the flight. It was THEY who hired inexperienced pilots. It was THEY who fired > those who complained. > > I currently have at least 5 friends flying, and I worry about them every day. > I worry about them because the services they work for are lax in > maintenance, continually put pressure on them to fly in inappropriate weather, use birds > that are 30 years old and unequipped for IFR, night vision, and so forth. I > have one friend who survived TWO hard landings that essentially totalled the > bird. > > I used to fly and I loved it. I still get a thrill when the bird lifts off. > But I quit after two forced landings. One of my favorite pilots used to > say that a helicopter is 100,000 parts held together by hope. The older the > bird, the stronger the hope has to be. > > HEMS is dangerous. GEMS is dangerous, but you have a hell of a better > chance in a ground ambulance than you do in a helo in an emergency. > > Yes, HEMS has a place, but it's in rural America, not in the urban areas for > the most part. Here in Tucson, they send the bird 5 miles, spend 20 minutes > on scene, and the ground ambulance transporting the " stable " patients gets to > the trauma center before they do. What kind of self-deception drives that? > > Why are there an armada of helos in the Dallas-Ft Worth area, all competing > with each other to the death (of their crews, not them). Because it's all > about MONEY. > > As much as I hate state regulation, it is time that something is done to > control not only HEMS but also ground EMS. Why in God's name should there be > over 100 ambulance services in Dallas County? > > Thank you, Bledsoe, for your guts and courage in standing up for what > is right. Now, let's get behind and make something happen. Write, > call, email your Congressmen and your state representatives. Talk to the > Governor. Write to GETAC. Write to Maxie, not to convince him (he doesn't need > convincing) but so that he can hold up your message when he testifies to the > legislative committees and say how many of you have contacted him about this. > > There may very well be little that DSHS can do to regulate the HEMS industry. > There are serious questions about jurisdiction. Fine. Let's still keep > the pressure on. > > I want you all to think about this. How many patients have been killed in > HEMS accidents who didn't even need HEMS to begin with? > > For those of you who fly, how many of your patients got discharged before you > got back to base? > > We all know this. > > The whole EMS industry is like a bunch of teenagers trying to enact rules for > sex and drinking. We are still young and immature, but we need to grow up. > > GG > > In a message dated 6/30/08 1:43:57 PM, Grayson902@... writes: > > > > > " Could it be because every time a helicopter crashes, the " ground > > pounders " raise up in arms with the " here we go again, when will someone > > step in and stop all this air ambulance madness " . " > > > > Not to piss in your Wheaties, Rick, and that is really not my intent... > > > > ...but that's *exactly* what we should be doing. Someone needs to raise > > a hue and cry about the HEMS industry - not that it isn't a needed > > component of EMS overall, because it is - but because the safety record > > is abominable. And rather than have HEMS industry insiders leading the > > charge for stricter standards, they're resisting it at every turn. That > > leaves the ground pounders to point out the problems, who are then > > accused of having an ax to grind by those recalcitrant HEMS industry > > insiders. > > > > You rightly point out that ground EMS has its safety issues as well. RLS > > responses, long shifts, shoddy ambulance design - both in handling and > > crew safety features - are *all* things ground EMS needs to address. > > > > Nadine Levick lectures all over this country about ground ambulance > > accidents, vehicle design and safety issues. Her talks are popular, > > well-attended and well-received by those of us who practice ground EMS. > > She's known throughout the industry as a safety advocate with the best > > interests of EMS crews at heart. More and more people are listening to > > what she has to say. > > > > Conversely, who decries the same lack of safety standards in HEMS, with > > the same reach? *One* lonely voice - Bledsoe - and every time he > > points out the insanity, he is pilloried by everyone in flight suits as > > that outsider kook DO from Midlothian who hates EMS helicopters. > > > > Something powerfully wrong with that picture, and unless something is > > done soon from the *inside*, pretty soon you're gonna see draconian > > regulations implemented by people from the *outside*, who will make > > Bledsoe look like your best friend. > > > > Of course, YMMV... > > > > -- > > Grayson, CCEMT-P > > www.kellygrayson. ww > > > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 Yes. GG > > So any legally require investigation such as NTSB etc would qualify yes? > > LNM from Baku, Azerbaijan > Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T > > Re: Food for thought > > > HIPAA attaches to the record, not the patient. Therefore, disclosure can > only be done under HIPAA rules. > > GG > > ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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