Life after a failed intervention with Nada...

July 7, 2011

Hello to everyone.

I haven't posted in a long time but my life is better since I limited contact

with Nada. I did an " intervention " attempt 2 years ago in a letter after not

speaking to her for a few months. She wanted to know why I was " cutting her out "

of my life and so I told her that I believed she had an illness that affected

her ability to react and relate to me and others appropriately. I told her that

I was sure she was unaware of how her behavior affects others and that she

likely had some childhood trauma which caused the onset of the illness, thus

relieving her from " blame " , if you will. It is true that I no longer blame Nada

for HAVING the disorder, but I told her that if she wanted me to be in her life

as much as I had been, then she needed serious professional help. I even

provided a list of therapists in her town that specialized in BPD. I requested

that, at minimum, she get help for her gambling and shopping addictions, which

she has, on rare occasions, acknowledged. She wrote me back immediately and I

had my husband and therapist read the letter to filter it for me. It was 16

pages long and my husband told me there was no point in me reading it. My

therapist, not fully understanding my Nada, apparently, read me the first 2

paragraphs in a session once (I lamely decided to hear my mom out, but wanted to

do it during therapy sessions - big mistake). The first sentence was a complete

invalidation of my entire childhood experience with her, and it only got worse

from there. I never read the rest and since my therapist has it, I am not

tempted to read it, either, but the first 2 paragraphs put me in an emotional

state I don't care to revisit soon.

Nada not only refused to seek help, but actually told me that I am the one who

needs serious help (ironic, since she knows I have been in therapy for over 20

years and a recovering alcoholic for 16 years), and that I am " making up

everything " I said about her just to be cruel and cause her " more pain " . She

even said her childhood was fine!! (Back story: my grandmother, a textbook

narcissist, was married 10 times, had 5 children from 4 alcoholic men, abandoned

Nada with an abusive relative for a couple of years and both of Nada's parents

died of alcoholism - my grandfather when Nada was young). Denial is the pulsing

heartbeat of this disorder, for sure. At any rate, while I said earlier that I

don't blame Nada for having the disorder, I can hold her accountable for

choosing to ignore the information I gave, and my experiences, and not getting

help. Meaning, she is choosing to stay sick over having a relationship with me.

Interestingly, her husband (her 3rd), in good enabler fashion, sent me a letter

stating that Nada had " forced " him to read my letter to her. He said that while

he agreed with my assessment of her, and that I pretty much described her

exactly how she is, she wasn't going to change and that I needed to just accept

her for who she was and live with the relationship as it was. I wanted to reply

" I do accept her for who she is. I accept that she is sick and delusional.

Accepting her does not mean I have to subject myself to her behavior, though " . I

think that's where some people get confused. Those who didn't grow up with a BP.

They think that because this person is my " parent " (in quotes for a reason),

that I am obligated to put up with her abuse. NOT SO. I'm saying this for anyone

else who may be wondering.

So, after a year of no contact with Nada, my aunt called to tell me that she had

been trying to get in touch with her to tell her their mother (my grandmother,

the narcissist) was dying. Whenever she tried to call Nada, Nada would hang up

on her before she could say anything but " hello, sister " . She asked if I would

contact Nada for her. I agreed, knowing Nada would not ignore me. I emailed her

to let her know my grandma was dying and, because I felt some weird sense of

guilt or something, told her I was (finally) newly pregnant at the same time.

I'm not sure if I was trying to lessen the blow or what, but I let the cat out

of the bag. She thanked me politely for letting her know about her mom, and

congratulated me on the pregnancy. She was on her best behavior, which is one

extremely frustrating thing about BP's. They can put on this act and make you

believe that you really are the one making everything up or making mountains out

of molehills, because don't you see they are really sane? She and I had some

contact over the course of the following months as I arranged my grandma's

funeral and service, and talked some sense into her when she tried to refuse

signing some legal form to have my grandma cremated. However, I was very careful

to only talk about the task at hand, and all done via email so that my husband

could read her response emails first to make sure she was still acting on " good "

behavior. A few times she veered off into the blame game with my aunt, and put

on a show about what a victim she was that this all happened to her(!) - not

even mentioning what my grandma went through WHILE DYING mind you. Ugh. She even

emailed my brother angrily that he didn't send his condolences to her.

Um...we're in the same family, crazy lady. My brother needs condolences as much

as she does, but she expected us to put our grief aside so that she could bask

in the sorrowful feelings we had for HER (not for our grandmother). Egads. It

hit home once again how insane she is.

After I had been pregnant for awhile and things were going well with it, my

husband and I started discussing whether we wanted her in our child's life or

not. My brother has 5 girls, and Nada is great with them (although they know

something isn't quite right with her, because she " seems like a child herself "

as my 15-yr old niece put it). I am also reminded that while Nada had a painful,

tumultuous relationship with her mom, my grandma was one of my favorite people,

despite her narcissism and alcoholism. I have great memories of her, and had

lots of fun times with her, as well as a small handful of painful ones. (I even

lived with her when I was young, when Nada " couldn't handle " being a parent -

I'm sure this because she wasn't expecting us children to have needs of our

own). Anyhow, I am not sure that I want to deny my child a relationship with

Nada that might be very different from the relationship I had with her, and my

husband agreed. We decided that at any point, we could reassess the decision -

even if was just one thing she did with our child we didn't agree with - and

there would be no questions asked if one of us said " never again " . We're taking

it one day at a time, in other words (a concept that was foreign to me growing

up in an all-or-nothing household). However, aside from one 6-hour visit with

Nada when my daughter was 3 months old, she and I have only communicated via

email. I keep her on the email updates with the rest of the relatives that want

updates, photos, videos, etc. of our daughter's growth and progress. She sends

gifts to her, which I then donate. She is not allowed to get gifts for me or my

husband, and has tested my boundary with this a few times before finally getting

it. When I do email her back, I keep it to topics related to my daughter, and

not to me or my husband or anything else (I'm not perfect at this, but most of

the time, I'm good enough at it. There is still some tiny part of me that wants

a MOM sometimes!). She is still on her best behavior with me, but once in a

while she will say something in an email that is completely BPD-ish. Like " I've

never been close to you, and I am sure it was because I didn't breastfeed you "

(yeah...that's why!). Or " I don't know why you have pegged me as the enemy when

all I've ever done is be supportive and kind to you " (is that what you call

it?)... it gently reminds me that she HAS NOT CHANGED and likely never will. I'm

grateful that I understand what her limitations are and that I don't expect

anything from her otherwise. She is not capable of being the mom I deserved to

have, and I have grieved that " loss " of a mom for years now. I am also able to

appreciate the things she did do " right " , although they are harder to focus on.

I have to see that she is not all bad, all sick, all insane, because then I am

doing the same black-or-white thing that she is so good at doing.

When I saw her a few months ago, at that visit to introduce her to my daughter,

we met at a restaurant, and I was so afraid that I would start crying (due to

hormones, anxiety, whatever) and that she would think all was forgiven and it

would be this tearful reunion of some kind. But, thankfully, she was very cold

and closed off to me, very self-absorbed and, surprisingly, even so with my

daughter. I was so grateful for that in a way only a child of a BP can be. It

made it easier to stay detached from her as someone who is very sick. It was

interesting to see her interact with my baby, too. My husband said it perfectly.

He said " she was giving all this attention to the baby, and yet, she wasn't

paying attention to the cues the baby was giving back to her. Like your mom was

up in her face being loud and animated, but the baby wasn't loving that and was

giving her this look of 'what the hell lady, get out of my face'. And yet, your

mom was clueless because it was all about her. Even with a 3-month old baby, she

expects validation and attention from the other person " (to which I replied

" yeah, welcome to my childhood " ).

I am still not sure what the future holds for Nada's and my daughter's

relationship. As in how much contact I will allow her to have or not. But I know

this: BECAUSE of the work I have done to extricate myself from the grips of BPD

(both in Nada and the traits I used to possess myself), I will be the parent my

daughter deserves to have. I will not be perfect, but I will be so much more

than the parent I had in my mom. I ALREADY AM. I do not expect my baby to

provide me with any kind of validation, love, or attention. That is not her job

and I did not conceive her just to have someone to love me (as Nada did with

us). It is not my daughter's job to parent me. It will not be her job to

rearrange her life to suit me, nor will it be her role to put my feelings and

needs ahead of her own. I am grateful for that. It is beyond measure the

gratitude I have for that. And I am grateful for this site and the books I have

read (like " Children of the Self-Absorbed " and " Surviving a Borderline Parent " ,

to name a couple) which gave me the knowledge and then the courage to use it to

my best ability.

I really hope that anyone reading these posts will find solace and help as I

did. The last 2 years with this very limited relationship with Nada have been

the happiest I can remember. She is not the puppet master pulling my strings

anymore and hoping I'll react or dance for her. I have cut the strings and am

walking free.

-Charlotte

July 8, 2011

WOW you are completely amazing!!! Way to tackle the black and white thinking

- there really are shades of gray!!! How did we end up not BPD - when you

describe her behavior from the baby's perspecitve, I wonder how we turned

out so normal!

THis struck me " I've never been close to you, and I am sure it was because I

didn't breastfeed you " (yeah...that's why!).

Do they take a class or what - they all sound like this. . . I think it's

projection. Its not " we have never been close because I am mentally ill and

treat you like crap, " instead theres an excuse they can make to blame 100

percent of the problem - and they are home free after that!!!

That's a big thing for me right now - the 100 percent black and white stuff.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 9:40 AM, retrofitresale wrote:

> **

>

> Hello to everyone.

> I haven't posted in a long time but my life is better since I limited

> contact with Nada. I did an " intervention " attempt 2 years ago in a letter

> after not speaking to her for a few months. She wanted to know why I was

> " cutting her out " of my life and so I told her that I believed she had an

> illness that affected her ability to react and relate to me and others

> appropriately. I told her that I was sure she was unaware of how her

> behavior affects others and that she likely had some childhood trauma which

> caused the onset of the illness, thus relieving her from " blame " , if you

> will. It is true that I no longer blame Nada for HAVING the disorder, but I

> told her that if she wanted me to be in her life as much as I had been, then

> she needed serious professional help. I even provided a list of therapists

> in her town that specialized in BPD. I requested that, at minimum, she get

> help for her gambling and shopping addictions, which she has, on rare

> occasions, acknowledged. She wrote me back immediately and I had my husband

> and therapist read the letter to filter it for me. It was 16 pages long and

> my husband told me there was no point in me reading it. My therapist, not

> fully understanding my Nada, apparently, read me the first 2 paragraphs in a

> session once (I lamely decided to hear my mom out, but wanted to do it

> during therapy sessions - big mistake). The first sentence was a complete

> invalidation of my entire childhood experience with her, and it only got

> worse from there. I never read the rest and since my therapist has it, I am

> not tempted to read it, either, but the first 2 paragraphs put me in an

> emotional state I don't care to revisit soon.

> Wow

> Nada not only refused to seek help, but actually told me that I am the one

> who needs serious help (ironic, since she knows I have been in therapy for

> over 20 years and a recovering alcoholic for 16 years), and that I am

> " making up everything " I said about her just to be cruel and cause her " more

> pain " . She even said her childhood was fine!! (Back story: my grandmother, a

> textbook narcissist, was married 10 times, had 5 children from 4 alcoholic

> men, abandoned Nada with an abusive relative for a couple of years and both

> of Nada's parents died of alcoholism - my grandfather when Nada was young).

> Denial is the pulsing heartbeat of this disorder, for sure. At any rate,

> while I said earlier that I don't blame Nada for having the disorder, I can

> hold her accountable for choosing to ignore the information I gave, and my

> experiences, and not getting help. Meaning, she is choosing to stay sick

> over having a relationship with me.

>

> Interestingly, her husband (her 3rd), in good enabler fashion, sent me a

> letter stating that Nada had " forced " him to read my letter to her. He said

> that while he agreed with my assessment of her, and that I pretty much

> described her exactly how she is, she wasn't going to change and that I

> needed to just accept her for who she was and live with the relationship as

> it was. I wanted to reply " I do accept her for who she is. I accept that she

> is sick and delusional. Accepting her does not mean I have to subject myself

> to her behavior, though " . I think that's where some people get confused.

> Those who didn't grow up with a BP. They think that because this person is

> my " parent " (in quotes for a reason), that I am obligated to put up with her

> abuse. NOT SO. I'm saying this for anyone else who may be wondering.

>

> So, after a year of no contact with Nada, my aunt called to tell me that

> she had been trying to get in touch with her to tell her their mother (my

> grandmother, the narcissist) was dying. Whenever she tried to call Nada,

> Nada would hang up on her before she could say anything but " hello, sister " .

> She asked if I would contact Nada for her. I agreed, knowing Nada would not

> ignore me. I emailed her to let her know my grandma was dying and, because I

> felt some weird sense of guilt or something, told her I was (finally) newly

> pregnant at the same time. I'm not sure if I was trying to lessen the blow

> or what, but I let the cat out of the bag. She thanked me politely for

> letting her know about her mom, and congratulated me on the pregnancy. She

> was on her best behavior, which is one extremely frustrating thing about

> BP's. They can put on this act and make you believe that you really are the

> one making everything up or making mountains out of molehills, because don't

> you see they are really sane? She and I had some contact over the course of

> the following months as I arranged my grandma's funeral and service, and

> talked some sense into her when she tried to refuse signing some legal form

> to have my grandma cremated. However, I was very careful to only talk about

> the task at hand, and all done via email so that my husband could read her

> response emails first to make sure she was still acting on " good " behavior.

> A few times she veered off into the blame game with my aunt, and put on a

> show about what a victim she was that this all happened to her(!) - not even

> mentioning what my grandma went through WHILE DYING mind you. Ugh. She even

> emailed my brother angrily that he didn't send his condolences to her.

> Um...we're in the same family, crazy lady. My brother needs condolences as

> much as she does, but she expected us to put our grief aside so that she

> could bask in the sorrowful feelings we had for HER (not for our

> grandmother). Egads. It hit home once again how insane she is.

>

> After I had been pregnant for awhile and things were going well with it, my

> husband and I started discussing whether we wanted her in our child's life

> or not. My brother has 5 girls, and Nada is great with them (although they

> know something isn't quite right with her, because she " seems like a child

> herself " as my 15-yr old niece put it). I am also reminded that while Nada

> had a painful, tumultuous relationship with her mom, my grandma was one of

> my favorite people, despite her narcissism and alcoholism. I have great

> memories of her, and had lots of fun times with her, as well as a small

> handful of painful ones. (I even lived with her when I was young, when Nada

> " couldn't handle " being a parent - I'm sure this because she wasn't

> expecting us children to have needs of our own). Anyhow, I am not sure that

> I want to deny my child a relationship with Nada that might be very

> different from the relationship I had with her, and my husband agreed. We

> decided that at any point, we could reassess the decision - even if was just

> one thing she did with our child we didn't agree with - and there would be

> no questions asked if one of us said " never again " . We're taking it one day

> at a time, in other words (a concept that was foreign to me growing up in an

> all-or-nothing household). However, aside from one 6-hour visit with Nada

> when my daughter was 3 months old, she and I have only communicated via

> email. I keep her on the email updates with the rest of the relatives that

> want updates, photos, videos, etc. of our daughter's growth and progress.

> She sends gifts to her, which I then donate. She is not allowed to get gifts

> for me or my husband, and has tested my boundary with this a few times

> before finally getting it. When I do email her back, I keep it to topics

> related to my daughter, and not to me or my husband or anything else (I'm

> not perfect at this, but most of the time, I'm good enough at it. There is

> still some tiny part of me that wants a MOM sometimes!). She is still on her

> best behavior with me, but once in a while she will say something in an

> email that is completely BPD-ish. Like " I've never been close to you, and I

> am sure it was because I didn't breastfeed you " (yeah...that's why!). Or " I

> don't know why you have pegged me as the enemy when all I've ever done is be

> supportive and kind to you " (is that what you call it?)... it gently reminds

> me that she HAS NOT CHANGED and likely never will. I'm grateful that I

> understand what her limitations are and that I don't expect anything from

> her otherwise. She is not capable of being the mom I deserved to have, and I

> have grieved that " loss " of a mom for years now. I am also able to

> appreciate the things she did do " right " , although they are harder to focus

> on. I have to see that she is not all bad, all sick, all insane, because

> then I am doing the same black-or-white thing that she is so good at doing.

>

> When I saw her a few months ago, at that visit to introduce her to my

> daughter, we met at a restaurant, and I was so afraid that I would start

> crying (due to hormones, anxiety, whatever) and that she would think all was

> forgiven and it would be this tearful reunion of some kind. But, thankfully,

> she was very cold and closed off to me, very self-absorbed and,

> surprisingly, even so with my daughter. I was so grateful for that in a way

> only a child of a BP can be. It made it easier to stay detached from her as

> someone who is very sick. It was interesting to see her interact with my

> baby, too. My husband said it perfectly. He said " she was giving all this

> attention to the baby, and yet, she wasn't paying attention to the cues the

> baby was giving back to her. Like your mom was up in her face being loud and

> animated, but the baby wasn't loving that and was giving her this look of

> 'what the hell lady, get out of my face'. And yet, your mom was clueless

> because it was all about her. Even with a 3-month old baby, she expects

> validation and attention from the other person " (to which I replied " yeah,

> welcome to my childhood " ).

>

> I am still not sure what the future holds for Nada's and my daughter's

> relationship. As in how much contact I will allow her to have or not. But I

> know this: BECAUSE of the work I have done to extricate myself from the

> grips of BPD (both in Nada and the traits I used to possess myself), I will

> be the parent my daughter deserves to have. I will not be perfect, but I

> will be so much more than the parent I had in my mom. I ALREADY AM. I do not

> expect my baby to provide me with any kind of validation, love, or

> attention. That is not her job and I did not conceive her just to have

> someone to love me (as Nada did with us). It is not my daughter's job to

> parent me. It will not be her job to rearrange her life to suit me, nor will

> it be her role to put my feelings and needs ahead of her own. I am grateful

> for that. It is beyond measure the gratitude I have for that. And I am

> grateful for this site and the books I have read (like " Children of the

> Self-Absorbed " and " Surviving a Borderline Parent " , to name a couple) which

> gave me the knowledge and then the courage to use it to my best ability.

>

> I really hope that anyone reading these posts will find solace and help as

> I did. The last 2 years with this very limited relationship with Nada have

> been the happiest I can remember. She is not the puppet master pulling my

> strings anymore and hoping I'll react or dance for her. I have cut the

> strings and am walking free.

> -Charlotte

>

July 8, 2011

Wow, what your husband said about how she was interacting with your daughter and

not paying attention to any of the child's cues and needs was really insightful.

It totally fits interactions I have had with my nada.

That really struck home with me.

Congratulaions too on getting such a healthy perspective and achieving such a

mentally healthy state. It can be really hard with all the crap they throw at

us.

AManda

>

> Hello to everyone.

> I haven't posted in a long time but my life is better since I limited contact