carrying on the job.

[Guest guest]

And your employer has the right to not hire or fire you for attempting to do

something that makes little sense or could potentially put you in a riskier

situation than they are comfortable being responsible for you to be in.

Rights go both ways...

Dudley

Re: carrying on the job.

OK, here is the problem I have with everybody's argument. I like the

police, I work with them on a daily basis. problem: the police

aren't always there. And, you don't always " feel unsafe " There could

come a time, when you are with a patient, and you feel perfectly safe

and BOOM! he pulls a gun.

Police, even if they are there, have no legal obligation to protect

you. Let me refer you to the case of Lynch Vs. NC Dept. of Justice.

" Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect

individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead, their duty is

to preserve the peace and arrest lawbreakers for the protection of

the general public. "

In another case, Riss Vs. New York, the same ruling was upheld, in a

dissenting opinion, I think the Justice spelled it out pretty clear

when he said this:

" What makes the City's position particularly difficult to

understand, is that, in conformity to the

dictates of the law, did not carry any weapon for self-defense.

Thus

by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on

the City

of New York which now denies all responsibility to her. "

In this video, less than two months ago, a Medstar (East St. Louis,

IL, Not 10 miles from where I work) EMT was shot while driving a

patient in route to Jewish hospital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBWEFBJHlNU

Granted in that situation, the EMT having a gun wouldn't do him any

good, but I'm sure he didn't " feel unsafe " .

In D.C. Vs. Heller, the Supreme Court Justices right this: (in

reference to multiple previous pages of definitions)... " Putting all of

these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee

the individual right to possess and carry weapons in

case of confrontation. "

Therefore, I believe I have a strong case. The police cannot always

be counted on to protect me, Even if they are there, they have no

legal obligation to do so. I work in some very dangerous areas, and

I have a right to defend myself.

> > >

> > > Hi all, I am an EMT in MO. I have been trying with little

success to

> > > look into the legalities of carrying a firearm on the

ambulance. I

> > > have been told that there is a federal law against it, or that

it is a

> > > state law. I've also been told that there is no law against it,

that

> > > it is just a policy. Does anyone know if there is a federal

law, and

> > > if so, can you site the law.

> > >

> > > After getting all the facts, if there is in fact a law against

it, I

> > > plan on challenging it with the recent ruling in D.C. vs.

Heller. I

> > > believe this is something we can win, and make our job a little

safer.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I will echo what Wes said, after doing a quick Google search...in Missouri,

hospitals are off limits for weapons to Concealed Carry Permit holders (CCP).?

Law enforcement officials can carry there not because of agreements, but because

of legislation that permits it.

BTW, when police officers?enter jails, courthouses, or police stations there are

facilities to allow them to secure their weapons before entering...when

civilians (read: NON-COPS) enter or attempt to enter these facilities with

weapons, there are facilities provided to secure these PEOPLE in for doing so...

Being a cop is more than carrying a gun...and the rights afforded them ARE NOT

afforded to others in our society who are legally entitled to carry weapons on

their person.? This isn't a " walk like a duck; quack like a duck " argument.? If

you want the freedom and ability to carry a weapon like a cop...you have to

become a cop...

Dudley

Re: carrying on the job.

Can you please provide me the source of your statistics? because

they are a fallacy. In the case of bringing it into hospitals,

exceptions are made for police officers, and can also be made for

EMS. As for jails, We would do the same as police officers do, they

check the weapons at the door and they are returned upon leaving.

Schools work the same as hospitals, exceptions are made for LEO, and

the same can be done for EMS.

I believe we are getting off course here. I am not looking for

arguments for or against. Everybody has a right to believe what they

want. I am looking for specific laws. If you know of any, please

site it. Thank You.

> > > >

> > > > Hi all, I am an EMT in MO. I have been trying with little

> success to

> > > > look into the legalities of carrying a firearm on the

> ambulance. I

> > > > have been told that there is a federal law against it, or

that

> it is a

> > > > state law. I've also been told that there is no law against

it,

> that

> > > > it is just a policy. Does anyone know if there is a federal

> law, and

> > > > if so, can you site the law.

> > > >

> > > > After getting all the facts, if there is in fact a law

against

> it, I

> > > > plan on challenging it with the recent ruling in D.C. vs.

> Heller. I

> > > > believe this is something we can win, and make our job a

little

> safer.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have read the last few days posts with interest, mostly after my first

reaction to the original post which was ...... What??!?!?!? Allow me a couple

of

points, (and I am not sure which to go with first as the most pertinent).....

1) Why would anyone want to go to the time and effort (and expense) of

challenging the law? The D.C. lawsuit was for the right to have a gun IN THE

HOME,

which has been banned for many years there. It has nothing to do with weapons

in the workplace. (Here locally, we are prohibited from having weapons on city

property, [or alcohol, or drugs etc etc] so there really is not a way to make

it happen anyway)

2) I think Dudly and Mr. have hit on the mainest (can I do that?) main

point, what employer in his right mind would want this individual on one of

his boxes, actually in contact with the public? I am reminded of the anecdote I

heard of a guy who came to a job (fire department) interview with a Statue of

Liberty hair cut, sticking out in spikes in all directions, and it was green.

An interviewer later told him if he was hired, he would have to get rid of

that for a more " regular " cut. He told the interviewer that this was his " right "

to self expression. The interviewer replied, " You can express yourself all

you want, and you are free to do so, but you cannot do it if you expect to work

for me. " Perhaps story is not right on point, but imagine the liability issues

if you did clip someone in the back of the box, or even better, in their own

home. I am a reasonable and prudent paramedic (yeah, yeah, I know, dont say

it) and carrying heat on the job is neither. In ANY scenario, it is a lose/lose

situation. I dont have much use for lawyers (no offense anyone) (got a lot of

good jokes too if your interested) but I am starting law school now and taking

the bar exam in MO because in about four or five years, there is going to be

a HUGE wrongful death suit.

Fade to voiceover..... " Today, a paramedic with OK Corral EMS service shot and

killed a patient, his partner (the driver) on the ambulance, and a roadside

ice cream vendor when the trigger on his automatic pistol jammed. Apparently

the patient said something mean about the paramedic's sister. The ambulance was

apparently swerving at the time to avoid a cow in the road, and the gun was

struck by a flying lifepak 10. The paramedic was treated for injury sustained

when he was struck in the head by a ceramic filled Kevlar vest sitting on the

seat beside him. Film at eleven....... "

Have a sane day.

Chris

<BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for

fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>

[Guest guest]

In point 2) I meant Dudley. Sorry for the miss.

Chris<BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos

for

fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>

[Guest guest]

I have another question. If carrying for personal safety, do we only get to

shoot (for personal safety of course) if there is a gun pulled on us, or for

other stuff too? hmmm.......

Fade to voiceover..... (Paramedic of the OK Corral EMS is being

sued for wrongful death after he shot and killed Eldon (no relation)

during an ambulance call to the latter Mr. 's house. Paramedic

advised

that the patient (victim) came at him in a threatening manner and took a

swing him as he tried to initiate patient care. " He was out of control, " advised

Paramedic , referring to the patient, " and I was in fear for my life. I

had to take the shot. " Autopsy revealed Eldon , 37, who was an insulin

dependant diabetic, had a blood sugar level of 15. According to county coroner,

Dr. Darren Hill, this level of blood sugar is approximately five to six times

lower than is necessary for normal brain function. Eldon 's family is suing

for an amount equal to the Gross National Product of Denmark for the fiscal

2006 year....... "

Have a sane day.

Chris

P.S. Naturally, all the names are complete fiction, and bear no resemblance,

either real or imagined, to anyone who actually works for the fictional OK

Corral EMS.<BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL

Autos for

fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>

[Guest guest]

I am a few days late catching this tread. There is one thing I am very happy to

see is that all the replies have been against carrying a firearm. I have one

full time deputy that works part time for me and he follows our policy of not

carrying a firearm while with EMS. I have had one call where a firearm was

pulled on me and I can't think of a single medic, myself included, who I would

have wanted to be packing heat to handle the situation. Leave it to law

enforcement.

Does anybody watch the thrill shows on TV that show real cop video? Ever noticed

how many shots are fired in an exchange and how many miss the target? This is

from the guys who are trained to shoot and be shot at. Much of the lead goes

elsewhere. If law enforcement faces this challenge, I would not want to face

that challenge as a pistol packing paramedic!

As an EMS Director, I am very much against carrying weapons on the units.

B.

Seminole

---- Original Message -----

From: brandonjones36

To: texasems-l

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:53 PM

Subject: carrying on the job.

Hi all, I am an EMT in MO. I have been trying with little success to

look into the legalities of carrying a firearm on the ambulance. I

have been told that there is a federal law against it, or that it is a

state law. I've also been told that there is no law against it, that

it is just a policy. Does anyone know if there is a federal law, and

if so, can you site the law.

After getting all the facts, if there is in fact a law against it, I

plan on challenging it with the recent ruling in D.C. vs. Heller. I

believe this is something we can win, and make our job a little safer.

[Guest guest]

Debbie,

The hair thing was a poor parallel, but in the anecdote I heard, the guy

wasn't coming to work, he was at an interview, hoping to get the job. The point

I

was trying to make is the one you came to with your guy that quit, he and YOU

(personally, as the director) and your service are liable for the location and

placement of any rounds he puts down range, if he is carrying while he works

for you, volunteer or not. You tried, apparently, to tell him, " You can carry,

but you cant do it and work for me. " The fact that he insisted tells me

perhaps the young man's judgement was skewed to start with, only confirmed by

the

fact that your more veteran guys saw no problem with your " no carry " edict.

Have a sane day!

Chris<BR><BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos

for

fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>

[Guest guest]

I have to put in my two cents on this issue. I have a volunteer operation

and I have had at times several law enforcement officers who volunteer for

my EMS service. As a general rule the older ones leave there weapons at

home or where ever they secure them, but I had one young know it all rookie

office that stated that an officer is always on duty and therefore allowed

to carry their weapon while on an ambulance. This was a long tiresome

argument I was told I can not just up and write a protocol or standard

operating procedure that singled him out and that he would be grandfathered

in no matter what. All of the older officers told him that they would not

partner up with him if he insisted on have a concealed weapon and the others

followed suit and he quit. We now have a written policy that EMS will not

at any time be in possession of a concealed weapon. Do not know if it is

legal, but no one has challenged it. As for the hair that was a sticky one

as well, because women dye their hair to cover the gray and some men you can

not just say no dyed hair, you have to have no unnatural hair colors of

styles allowed. Why can't it just be common sense that you do not show up

for work with green, blue, bozo the clown orange hair? And I do not wear

spiked hair because the elderly patients I provide care to would not think I

am a professional if I have Statue of Liberty spiked hair or if I am in the

back of an ambulance with a gun and a large tank of oxygen and several

smaller ones this would not be the area to be firing a weapon?

Just old I guess

Debbie

Re: carrying on the job.

I have read the last few days posts with interest, mostly after my first

reaction to the original post which was ...... What??!?!?!? Allow me a

couple of

points, (and I am not sure which to go with first as the most

pertinent).....

1) Why would anyone want to go to the time and effort (and expense) of

challenging the law? The D.C. lawsuit was for the right to have a gun IN THE

HOME,

which has been banned for many years there. It has nothing to do with

weapons

in the workplace. (Here locally, we are prohibited from having weapons on

city

property, [or alcohol, or drugs etc etc] so there really is not a way to

make

it happen anyway)

2) I think Dudly and Mr. have hit on the mainest (can I do that?)

main

point, what employer in his right mind would want this individual on one of

his boxes, actually in contact with the public? I am reminded of the

anecdote I

heard of a guy who came to a job (fire department) interview with a Statue

of

Liberty hair cut, sticking out in spikes in all directions, and it was

green.

An interviewer later told him if he was hired, he would have to get rid of

that for a more " regular " cut. He told the interviewer that this was his

" right "

to self expression. The interviewer replied, " You can express yourself all

you want, and you are free to do so, but you cannot do it if you expect to

work

for me. " Perhaps story is not right on point, but imagine the liability

issues

if you did clip someone in the back of the box, or even better, in their own

home. I am a reasonable and prudent paramedic (yeah, yeah, I know, dont say

it) and carrying heat on the job is neither. In ANY scenario, it is a

lose/lose

situation. I dont have much use for lawyers (no offense anyone) (got a lot

of

good jokes too if your interested) but I am starting law school now and

taking

the bar exam in MO because in about four or five years, there is going to be

a HUGE wrongful death suit.

Fade to voiceover..... " Today, a paramedic with OK Corral EMS service shot

and

killed a patient, his partner (the driver) on the ambulance, and a roadside

ice cream vendor when the trigger on his automatic pistol jammed. Apparently

the patient said something mean about the paramedic's sister. The ambulance

was

apparently swerving at the time to avoid a cow in the road, and the gun was

struck by a flying lifepak 10. The paramedic was treated for injury

sustained

when he was struck in the head by a ceramic filled Kevlar vest sitting on

the

seat beside him. Film at eleven....... "

Have a sane day.

Chris

<BR><BR>**************<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for

fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)</HTML>

[Guest guest]

First, let me add the caveat that I agree with clgrote and most of the

other posters in that carrying a firearm on the job is not necessary,

and may lead the weapon bearer down paths they should not travel.

HOWEVER, the tone of the reply here seems to edge toward the hysterical.

Comments interspersed...

1) Why would anyone want to go to the time and effort (and expense) of

challenging the law? The D.C. lawsuit was for the right to have a gun IN

THE HOME, which has been banned for many years there. It has nothing to

do with weapons in the workplace.

The Supreme Court in DC vs Heller held that the right to keep and bear

arms was an *individual* right, not a collective one. As such, it has

far broader implications than simply the right to own and store a gun in

the home. Alan Gura, Mr. Heller's lawyer in the case, focused his

argument on ownership of guns in the home and the right to self defense

by firearms kept in the home. This was a legal tactic, not necessarily

what the case was originally about. Further, there were other

petitioners who were dropped from the final Heller case because they

were judged not to have the standing to petition the Supreme Court.

Several of those petitioners wanted arguments with broader scope.

(Here locally, we are prohibited from having weapons on city property,

[or alcohol, or drugs etc etc] so there really is not a way to make it

happen anyway)

2) I think Dudly and Mr. have hit on the mainest (can I do that?)

main point, what employer in his right mind would want this individual

on one of his boxes, actually in contact with the public?

Florida now allows private citizens to keep their guns in their personal

vehicles while parked on their employer's property. Granted, it's a big

step from packing heat while on the rig, but so far, the parking lots

are not running with blood. I doubt they ever will.

I am reminded of the anecdote I heard of a guy who came to a job (fire

department) interview with a Statue of Liberty hair cut, sticking out in

spikes in all directions, and it was green. An interviewer later told

him if he was hired, he would have to get rid of that for a more

" regular " cut. He told the interviewer that this was his " right " to self

expression. The interviewer replied, " You can express yourself all

you want, and you are free to do so, but you cannot do it if you expect

to work for me. " Perhaps story is not right on point, but imagine the

liability issues if you did clip someone in the back of the box, or even

better, in their own home.

Apples and oranges. First of all, Mr. Freedom of Expression projects a

poor *visual* image of the company he works for. A medic carrying a

*concealed* weapon wouldn't project such an image, presumably because no

one would know he carries it until the moment he feels the need to

utilize it to defend his life. I'd wager significant money that a large

number of EMTs carry concealed weapons right now, in contravention of

their employer's policies, under the doctrine of " I'd rather be judged

by 12, than carried by 6. "

I don't have a problem with the *abstract* idea of a law-abiding citizen

with a concealed weapons permit carrying a firearm *anywhere* they go -

including bars, church, hospitals, schools and wherever their daily

activities take them. Gun free zones are more accurately termed " victim

disarmament zones. " The problem I have is that most EMTs I have met who

carry weapons have made it a point to *show* off their weapons to me at

some point. Such bragging and posturing is not typical behavior for most

CHL holders. They are among the most circumspect, and *safest* people

you will ever meet. They know the responsibility that comes with

carrying a weapon. The only one ever likely to discover they carry a

weapon is the unlucky criminal who gave them NO OTHER CHOICE (including

bugging out, radioing for help, and leaving behind the new LifePak 12 if

necessary), than to use deadly force.

I am a reasonable and prudent paramedic (yeah, yeah, I know, dont say

it) and carrying heat on the job is neither.

In your opinion, one I happen to share. And really, that's all it is.

There are no facts we can use to back it up. It can also be fairly

presumed that an equally prudent and reasonable paramedic would take

just the opposite view.

In ANY scenario, it is a lose/lose situation.

Again, I can see why someone would prefer the potential risk of *lose*

being a court case, and not their life. Be careful not to paint with too

broad a brush.

I dont have much use for lawyers (no offense anyone) (got a lot of good

jokes too if your interested) but I am starting law school now and taking

the bar exam in MO because in about four or five years, there is going

to be a HUGE wrongful death suit.

Possibly so. Then again, many other predictions about dire social

consequences of liberal concealed carry laws have not come to pass. The

gutters have not run with blood, and there are no pitched battles in the

streets - at least, none involving the law-abiding weapon owners.

Although, your point about lawyers being the ultimate cause of entropy

is well taken. I fear the lawyers more than the guns or gun owners.

Fade to voiceover...

... " Today, a paramedic with OK Corral EMS service shot and killed a

patient, his partner (the driver) on the ambulance, and a roadside ice

cream vendor when the trigger on his automatic pistol jammed. Apparently

the patient said something mean about the paramedic's sister.

Hyperbole is a crutch often used by those with weak arguments. I should

know - I stoop to hyperbole myself whenever I don't know what I'm

talking about.

The ambulance was apparently swerving at the time to avoid a cow in the

road, and the gun was struck by a flying lifepak 10. The paramedic was

treated for injury sustained when he was struck in the head by a ceramic

filled Kevlar vest sitting on the seat beside him. Film at eleven....... "

The sad thing is, such voiceovers actually could be used in most

mainstream media reports. This of course does not speak favorably of the

accuracy of news reporting though, does it?

Have a sane day.

Chris

You too, Chris.

--

Grayson, CCEMT-P

www.kellygrayson.com

[Guest guest]

Great, Chris!!

I remember once the HR person at ETMC EMS telling me about a guy who came in

to get an application. He was wearing shorts and a sleeveless T shirt and

was barefooted. After receiving the application, he asked to borrow a pencil,

then laid down on the floor and filled out the application. Needless to say

he was not hired.

GG

>

> I have read the last few days posts with interest, mostly after my first

> reaction to the original post which was ...... What??!?!?!? Allow me a

> couple of

> points, (and I am not sure which to go with first as the most pertinent)..

> po

>

> 1) Why would anyone want to go to the time and effort (and expense) of

> challenging the law? The D.C. lawsuit was for the right to have a gun IN THE

> HOME,

> which has been banned for many years there. It has nothing to do with

> weapons

> in the workplace. (Here locally, we are prohibited from having weapons on

> city

> property, [or alcohol, or drugs etc etc] so there really is not a way to

> make

> it happen anyway)

>

> 2) I think Dudly and Mr. have hit on the mainest (can I do that?)

> main

> point, what employer in his right mind would want this individual on one of

> his boxes, actually in contact with the public? I am reminded of the

> anecdote I

> heard of a guy who came to a job (fire department) interview with a Statue

> of

> Liberty hair cut, sticking out in spikes in all directions, and it was

> green.

> An interviewer later told him if he was hired, he would have to get rid of

> that for a more " regular " cut. He told the interviewer that this was his

> " right "

> to self expression. The interviewer replied, " You can express yourself all

> you want, and you are free to do so, but you cannot do it if you expect to

> work

> for me. " Perhaps story is not right on point, but imagine the liability

> issues

> if you did clip someone in the back of the box, or even better, in their own

> home. I am a reasonable and prudent paramedic (yeah, yeah, I know, dont say

> it) and carrying heat on the job is neither. In ANY scenario, it is a

> lose/lose

> situation. I dont have much use for lawyers (no offense anyone) (got a lot

> of

> good jokes too if your interested) but I am starting law school now and

> taking

> the bar exam in MO because in about four or five years, there is going to be

> a HUGE wrongful death suit.

>

> Fade to voiceover... Fade to voiceover...<wbr>.. " Today, a paramedic with OK

> Co

> killed a patient, his partner (the driver) on the ambulance, and a roadside

> ice cream vendor when the trigger on his automatic pistol jammed. Apparently

> the patient said something mean about the paramedic's sister. The ambulance

> was

> apparently swerving at the time to avoid a cow in the road, and the gun was

> struck by a flying lifepak 10. The paramedic was treated for injury

> sustained

> when he was struck in the head by a ceramic filled Kevlar vest sitting on

> the

> seat beside him. Film at eleven...... s

>

> Have a sane day.

> Chris

>

> <BR><BR>********<wbr>*<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for

> fuel-efficient used cars.<BR> (http://autos.http://autos.http://autos.<

> wbhttp://au)</HTML>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Here is the problem I have with your argument. If the gun is

already pulled on you, it is too late in my opinion to go for your weapon.

You can sight all the court cases you want, but I truly doubt any EMS agency

want the liability of one of their medics carrying a weapon. As already

stated a lot of people know we are unarmed and that puts them at ease around

us.

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of brandonjones36

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 11:42 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: carrying on the job.

OK, here is the problem I have with everybody's argument. I like the

police, I work with them on a daily basis. problem: the police

aren't always there. And, you don't always " feel unsafe " There could

come a time, when you are with a patient, and you feel perfectly safe

and BOOM! he pulls a gun.

Police, even if they are there, have no legal obligation to protect

you. Let me refer you to the case of Lynch Vs. NC Dept. of Justice.

" Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect

individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead, their duty is

to preserve the peace and arrest lawbreakers for the protection of

the general public. "

In another case, Riss Vs. New York, the same ruling was upheld, in a

dissenting opinion, I think the Justice spelled it out pretty clear

when he said this:

" What makes the City's position particularly difficult to

understand, is that, in conformity to the

dictates of the law, did not carry any weapon for self-defense.

Thus

by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on

the City

of New York which now denies all responsibility to her. "

In this video, less than two months ago, a Medstar (East St. Louis,

IL, Not 10 miles from where I work) EMT was shot while driving a

patient in route to Jewish hospital.

http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBWEFBJHlNU>

com/watch?v=mBWEFBJHlNU

Granted in that situation, the EMT having a gun wouldn't do him any

good, but I'm sure he didn't " feel unsafe " .

In D.C. Vs. Heller, the Supreme Court Justices right this: (in

reference to multiple previous pages of definitions)... " Putting all of

these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee

the individual right to possess and carry weapons in

case of confrontation. "

Therefore, I believe I have a strong case. The police cannot always

be counted on to protect me, Even if they are there, they have no

legal obligation to do so. I work in some very dangerous areas, and

I have a right to defend myself.

> > >

> > > Hi all, I am an EMT in MO. I have been trying with little

success to

> > > look into the legalities of carrying a firearm on the

ambulance. I

> > > have been told that there is a federal law against it, or that

it is a

> > > state law. I've also been told that there is no law against it,

that

> > > it is just a policy. Does anyone know if there is a federal

law, and

> > > if so, can you site the law.

> > >

> > > After getting all the facts, if there is in fact a law against

it, I

> > > plan on challenging it with the recent ruling in D.C. vs.

Heller. I

> > > believe this is something we can win, and make our job a little

safer.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I appreciate all of the eloquent commentary on the issue, as for my 2 cents

I will say two words: Nichols. In addition to many potential bad

decisions made by EMS folks made in the heat of an emotional response, the

real hazard might be a seasoned criminal at his/her wits end that decides to

go out with a BANG! I think the entire concept of an EMS professional

carrying a weapon is completely asinine.

> Great, Chris!!

>

> I remember once the HR person at ETMC EMS telling me about a guy who came

> in

> to get an application. He was wearing shorts and a sleeveless T shirt and

> was barefooted. After receiving the application, he asked to borrow a

> pencil,

> then laid down on the floor and filled out the application. Needless to say

>

> he was not hired.

>

> GG

> In a message dated 7/8/08 10:55:55 AM,

Clgrote126@...<Clgrote126%40aol.com>writes:

>

> >

> > I have read the last few days posts with interest, mostly after my first

> > reaction to the original post which was ...... What??!?!?!? Allow me a

> > couple of

> > points, (and I am not sure which to go with first as the most

> pertinent)..

> > po

> >

> > 1) Why would anyone want to go to the time and effort (and expense) of

> > challenging the law? The D.C. lawsuit was for the right to have a gun IN

> THE

> > HOME,

> > which has been banned for many years there. It has nothing to do with

> > weapons

> > in the workplace. (Here locally, we are prohibited from having weapons on

>

> > city

> > property, [or alcohol, or drugs etc etc] so there really is not a way to

> > make

> > it happen anyway)

> >

> > 2) I think Dudly and Mr. have hit on the mainest (can I do that?)

> > main

> > point, what employer in his right mind would want this individual on one

> of

> > his boxes, actually in contact with the public? I am reminded of the

> > anecdote I

> > heard of a guy who came to a job (fire department) interview with a

> Statue

> > of

> > Liberty hair cut, sticking out in spikes in all directions, and it was

> > green.

> > An interviewer later told him if he was hired, he would have to get rid

> of

> > that for a more " regular " cut. He told the interviewer that this was his

> > " right "

> > to self expression. The interviewer replied, " You can express yourself

> all

> > you want, and you are free to do so, but you cannot do it if you expect

> to

> > work

> > for me. " Perhaps story is not right on point, but imagine the liability

> > issues

> > if you did clip someone in the back of the box, or even better, in their

> own

> > home. I am a reasonable and prudent paramedic (yeah, yeah, I know, dont

> say

> > it) and carrying heat on the job is neither. In ANY scenario, it is a

> > lose/lose

> > situation. I dont have much use for lawyers (no offense anyone) (got a

> lot

> > of

> > good jokes too if your interested) but I am starting law school now and

> > taking

> > the bar exam in MO because in about four or five years, there is going to

> be

> > a HUGE wrongful death suit.

> >

> > Fade to voiceover... Fade to voiceover...<wbr>.. " Today, a paramedic with

> OK

> > Co

> > killed a patient, his partner (the driver) on the ambulance, and a

> roadside

> > ice cream vendor when the trigger on his automatic pistol jammed.

> Apparently

> > the patient said something mean about the paramedic's sister. The

> ambulance

> > was

> > apparently swerving at the time to avoid a cow in the road, and the gun

> was

> > struck by a flying lifepak 10. The paramedic was treated for injury

> > sustained

> > when he was struck in the head by a ceramic filled Kevlar vest sitting on

>

> > the

> > seat beside him. Film at eleven...... s

> >

> > Have a sane day.

> > Chris

> >

> > <BR><BR>********<wbr>*<BR>Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos

> for

> > fuel-efficient used cars.<BR>

(http://autos.http://autos.http://autos.<http://autos.http//autos.http://autos.>

> <

> > wbhttp://au)</HTML>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If you are carrying a gun, than there will be a gun at every scene you go to,

and if you are carrying a gun, does your partner have one to.  Everyone does

have a right to defend themselves, but what about your partner if you pull a gun

and they don't have one, what will they do.  Carrying a weapon is cool, but

knowing when to use it,and show it can be the difference in going home, to jail,

or to the autopsy table.  I worked for a medical service where if the medics

were police officers, we could carry are side arms as well.  I chose not to

because my partner could not carry, its not just you, you need to think about

your partner as well.

Subject: RE: Re: carrying on the job.

To: texasems-l

Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 11:11 PM

,

Here is the problem I have with your argument. If the gun is

already pulled on you, it is too late in my opinion to go for your weapon.

You can sight all the court cases you want, but I truly doubt any EMS agency

want the liability of one of their medics carrying a weapon. As already

stated a lot of people know we are unarmed and that puts them at ease around

us.

From: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com [mailto:texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com] On

Behalf Of brandonjones36

Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 11:42 PM

To: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com

Subject: Re: carrying on the job.

OK, here is the problem I have with everybody's argument. I like the

police, I work with them on a daily basis. problem: the police

aren't always there. And, you don't always " feel unsafe " There could

come a time, when you are with a patient, and you feel perfectly safe

and BOOM! he pulls a gun.

Police, even if they are there, have no legal obligation to protect

you. Let me refer you to the case of Lynch Vs. NC Dept. of Justice.

" Law enforcement agencies and personnel have no duty to protect

individuals from the criminal acts of others; instead, their duty is

to preserve the peace and arrest lawbreakers for the protection of

the general public. "

In another case, Riss Vs. New York, the same ruling was upheld, in a

dissenting opinion, I think the Justice spelled it out pretty clear

when he said this:

" What makes the City's position particularly difficult to

understand, is that, in conformity to the

dictates of the law, did not carry any weapon for self-defense.

Thus

by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on

the City

of New York which now denies all responsibility to her. "

In this video, less than two months ago, a Medstar (East St. Louis,

IL, Not 10 miles from where I work) EMT was shot while driving a

patient in route to Jewish hospital.

http://www.youtube. <http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=mBWEFBJHlNU>

com/watch?v= mBWEFBJHlNU

Granted in that situation, the EMT having a gun wouldn't do him any

good, but I'm sure he didn't " feel unsafe " .

In D.C. Vs. Heller, the Supreme Court Justices right this: (in

reference to multiple previous pages of definitions) ... " Putting all of

these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee

the individual right to possess and carry weapons in

case of confrontation. "

Therefore, I believe I have a strong case. The police cannot always

be counted on to protect me, Even if they are there, they have no

legal obligation to do so. I work in some very dangerous areas, and

I have a right to defend myself.

> > >

> > > Hi all, I am an EMT in MO. I have been trying with little

success to

> > > look into the legalities of carrying a firearm on the

ambulance. I

> > > have been told that there is a federal law against it, or that

it is a

> > > state law. I've also been told that there is no law against it,

that

> > > it is just a policy. Does anyone know if there is a federal

law, and

> > > if so, can you site the law.

> > >

> > > After getting all the facts, if there is in fact a law against

it, I

> > > plan on challenging it with the recent ruling in D.C. vs.

Heller. I

> > > believe this is something we can win, and make our job a little

safer.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >