Guest guest Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2012 Report Share Posted January 11, 2012 I'd say " follow your bliss " . If it doesn't work let it go but that's just me. > ** > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > think she was also BP. > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > would prefer not to see them at all. > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > them. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found validation and support, and I know you will too. I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? " Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, because it probably means something else to them. E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that lasts about 2 hours. Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like that, either. I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your feelings and your situation with your siblings. Take care, Fiona > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Fiona.  Thank you for the quick response. It's nice to talk to someone who knows where I'm coming from. Fortunately for me, my mother liked me alot because of my quietness. I was never made to feel that I should be more outgoing. There were lots of other things she criticized me about, but that wasn't one of them. I felt 'wrong' in this particular way mostly because of social pressure and expectations, but as I matured, which took forever, I learned to accept myself more.  I was very close to my three sisters for many years. My mother tried to keep us seperated, especially myself and my older two sisters when she decided that they were 'no good' around the teen years. We decided to become friends in our twenties. We worked hard at it and as I look back I believe, from my perspective, that my sisters always saw me as 'like my mother' and had a really hard time accepting me. Recently, we had a bit of a row, but it was different for me this time than the other times when this would happen. It was as if I could see that all of the hard work we had done to be friends was in vain. It was like there was a chasm between us that had always been there, but I could never accept it or refused to see it.  The three of us are very different in our basic values and goals. In my humble and unprofessional opinion I think the two of them have a codependant relationship. They both think that I am 'wrong' in the way that I am. They believe that I should be 'more polite' and 'just be nice to people'. Like they are.  I spent alot of my life trying to live up to my mother's expectations and I really don't want to live up to anyone else's expectations anymore. I am concerned that if I give up on them I may be harming myself by becoming more avoidant, but at the same time it feels alot less stressful when I don't have to deal with them. But, then again I have a close history and I miss them sometimes. But, then again I missed my mother sometimes after she died and I was never so relieved in my life when I heard of her death. You see how complicated this is?  I don't want my sisters to change. They want me to change. I won't do that anymore. So we are at a stalemate. Should I attend family functions and do my best to 'be polite' and 'just be nice to people' while I feel rejected, controlled, and stressed or should I cut all ties like my mother always did whenever she felt slighted?  I have seen a therapist and probably should do so again, but I thought I'd get a little advice from someone who has been there first.  Sorry this is so long, Robin  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:45:02 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found validation and support, and I know you will too. I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? " Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, because it probably means something else to them. E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that lasts about 2 hours. Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like that, either. I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your feelings and your situation with your siblings. Take care, Fiona > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Robin, This is so tough! I wish I could help more but I have a similar situation. In the sense that I have relative who I like and are okay but I feel stressed around them for various reasons. Bottom line I think we should be around people who love us. If someone wants us to change well . . . then they don't really love us. Then it's some bs about their agenda and their problems and who needs that? I say do what makes you happiest. > ** > > > Hi Fiona. > > Thank you for the quick response. It's nice to talk to someone who knows > where I'm coming from. Fortunately for me, my mother liked me alot because > of my quietness. I was never made to feel that I should be more outgoing. > There were lots of other things she criticized me about, but that wasn't > one of them. I felt 'wrong' in this particular way mostly because of social > pressure and expectations, but as I matured, which took forever, I learned > to accept myself more. > > I was very close to my three sisters for many years. My mother tried to > keep us seperated, especially myself and my older two sisters when she > decided that they were 'no good' around the teen years. We decided to > become friends in our twenties. We worked hard at it and as I look back I > believe, from my perspective, that my sisters always saw me as 'like my > mother' and had a really hard time accepting me. Recently, we had a bit of > a row, but it was different for me this time than the other times when this > would happen. It was as if I could see that all of the hard work we had > done to be friends was in vain. It was like there was a chasm between us > that had always been there, but I could never accept it or refused to see > it. > > The three of us are very different in our basic values and goals. In my > humble and unprofessional opinion I think the two of them have a > codependant relationship. They both think that I am 'wrong' in the way that > I am. They believe that I should be 'more polite' and 'just be nice to > people'. Like they are. > > I spent alot of my life trying to live up to my mother's expectations and > I really don't want to live up to anyone else's expectations anymore. I am > concerned that if I give up on them I may be harming myself by becoming > more avoidant, but at the same time it feels alot less stressful when I > don't have to deal with them. But, then again I have a close history and I > miss them sometimes. But, then again I missed my mother sometimes after she > died and I was never so relieved in my life when I heard of her death. You > see how complicated this is? > > I don't want my sisters to change. They want me to change. I won't do that > anymore. So we are at a stalemate. Should I attend family functions and do > my best to 'be polite' and 'just be nice to people' while I feel rejected, > controlled, and stressed or should I cut all ties like my mother always did > whenever she felt slighted? > > I have seen a therapist and probably should do so again, but I thought I'd > get a little advice from someone who has been there first. > > Sorry this is so long, > Robin > > > ________________________________ > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:45:02 AM > Subject: Re: Newbie > > > Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found > validation and support, and I know you will too. > > I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant > PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity > for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not > be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my > mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my > personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the > woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. > > Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > completely avoid them? " > > Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would > be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For > learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not > worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, > because it probably means something else to them. > > E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our > mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend > time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. > So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. > " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that > lasts about 2 hours. > > Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, > critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like > that, either. > > I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your > feelings and your situation with your siblings. > > Take care, > > Fiona > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > think she was also BP. > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > them. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have a toxic foo; we are scattered across North America. Periodically we have gathered for some reason, and each time I have disliked it more and more. I am a very honest and direct person by nature. This is against my foo's rules. They have wanted me to play their way. They find me rude, abrupt, insensitive, and unconventional. I used to care what they thought, but I don't anymore. I don't like them either. I feel awful in their presence: judged, anxious, fake, uncertain, mistrustful..... I have built up a wonderful network of friends, collegues, and neighbors over the years. I feel myself and at ease around them. They like me and I like them. Things flow effortlessly and we have fun together. I even have an " adopted " sister. We adopted each other. We do all things that sisters would ordinarily do under good circumstances. I am so much happier having let go of trying to get square pegs into round holes. I just went out and found myself round pegs, like me. It took a long time, and I had a lot of grieving to get through too. I'm not even completely done grieving one person. It's been a process, but I am better for it. I have learned to look inward to see how I feel about being in someone's company. If I feel good about myself in their presence, I move forward. If I feel bad about myself, I back up. I listen to my own body, instincts, and intuition to orient myself relationally now -- not conventions, historical roles, or someone else's ideas. It is empowering. I hope you find whatever inner strength you need to orient yourself and that you are able to surround yourself with people who bring out the best in you when you do want to be social. HC > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I understand the confusion so well. My mom thinks her criticizing in every shape and form is love. and I was fooled, so I miss the relationship I thought I had. my older sister is very enmeshed, so talking to her about nada is not productive and she is bossy so she tries to tell me how I should act which is usually a lecture on forgiving and seeing the good etc. which is out of line, but she learned it from nada. this sister apologizes all the time for her bossiness and cruelty to me growing up,and tries not to do it, but nada is amazing at disguising bossiness... you see the point. it is really hard. my husband is not a fan of this sister because of the way she treats me, but she is great about listening to me when I am hurt and tries and does change, so I am quick to forgive. it is so complicated. one thing I read recently that I found empowering was the notion that the way we treat people is not a reflection on them but on us. we should not respect people because they deserve it, but because it is the right thing to do. trust is something people have to earn. and love should be unconditional. love should not be a reward. nadas do that. being a loving person is the healthy and promotes our best selves which should be our goal. when we return the toxic behavior we perpetuate it. people who are simply in the habit of unhealthy and toxic behavior will respond to love and respect. nadas are a different story, but treating them with whatever respect we can muster (ie I intend to send nada a kid-made b-day card) then we can live up to our own ideal of goodness, and be happy in spite of the outcome. it is not about being a better person, but being a good person. Meikjn > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well...thanks for listening anyway Fiona. I don't agree that people don't love us if they want us to change. I think that we can love and be loved without being liked and that is probably the case here. My sisters just don't like me. And quite frankly I wouldn't choose them for friends either. But, I do believe they love me and I know I love them. I also believe that my mother loved me (as best a BPD can) and I know I loved her. Love is often not enough.. Re: Newbie > > > Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found > validation and support, and I know you will too. > > I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant > PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity > for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not > be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my > mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my > personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the > woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. > > Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > completely avoid them? " > > Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would > be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For > learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not > worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, > because it probably means something else to them. > > E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our > mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend > time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. > So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. > " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that > lasts about 2 hours. > > Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, > critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like > that, either. > > I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your > feelings and your situation with your siblings. > > Take care, > > Fiona > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > think she was also BP. > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > them. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi HC,  That is so suprising because I feel exactly the same way about my two older sisters. They seem somehow very fake to me and it feels like the only way I will be accepted and liked by them is if I am fake too. I wonder if this is just a difference in personality and has nothing to do with the dysfunction my family endured during our formative years?  I have no friends. The few I made over the years became too much of a strain on me. The people I chose as friends always seemed to end up being too controlling. I think I'm hypersensitive to someone trying to control me but, at the same time I seem to be drawn to controlling types. I find most people too difficult to be friends with. I feel that I don't get enough out of the relationships compared to the amount of energy I have to put into them and I'm also fearful that I will hurt them by something I say or do. I too am a little quick to say what I really think and a little too reserved with my affection.  I do have a wonderful and supportive husband though and two loving, grown daughters.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 3:51:46 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  I have a toxic foo; we are scattered across North America. Periodically we have gathered for some reason, and each time I have disliked it more and more. I am a very honest and direct person by nature. This is against my foo's rules. They have wanted me to play their way. They find me rude, abrupt, insensitive, and unconventional. I used to care what they thought, but I don't anymore. I don't like them either. I feel awful in their presence: judged, anxious, fake, uncertain, mistrustful..... I have built up a wonderful network of friends, collegues, and neighbors over the years. I feel myself and at ease around them. They like me and I like them. Things flow effortlessly and we have fun together. I even have an " adopted " sister. We adopted each other. We do all things that sisters would ordinarily do under good circumstances. I am so much happier having let go of trying to get square pegs into round holes. I just went out and found myself round pegs, like me. It took a long time, and I had a lot of grieving to get through too. I'm not even completely done grieving one person. It's been a process, but I am better for it. I have learned to look inward to see how I feel about being in someone's company. If I feel good about myself in their presence, I move forward. If I feel bad about myself, I back up. I listen to my own body, instincts, and intuition to orient myself relationally now -- not conventions, historical roles, or someone else's ideas. It is empowering. I hope you find whatever inner strength you need to orient yourself and that you are able to surround yourself with people who bring out the best in you when you do want to be social. HC > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi Meikjn,  Your sister sounds disturbingly like my oldest sister. She's all about 'goodness and forgiveness'. I think she suffers from Martyr syndrome. My sister goes out of her way to be helpful, but will blow up at you or lecture you if you step out of, what she considers, 'line'. She seems to need to be needed and the more you need her the better she likes it so she tries to make herself indispensable to her siblings. My other sister (the second oldest) says things about her like 'she's a good mother' as if my oldest sister had replaced my mother in her eyes...there's definately some codependancy or something at work there.  I will show respect until someone proves they don't deserve it. I don't really trust too many people. I doubt love is ever unconditional in the sense that we stay within a relationship because we love someone no matter how they treat us. But, I do believe that love is unconditional in that we continue to love someone whether we like them or are able to have a relationship with them or not.  My feeling is that 'being a good person' is very subjective. My sisters don't see me as a 'good person', but my children do.  Robin  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 9:19:13 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  I understand the confusion so well. My mom thinks her criticizing in every shape and form is love. and I was fooled, so I miss the relationship I thought I had. my older sister is very enmeshed, so talking to her about nada is not productive and she is bossy so she tries to tell me how I should act which is usually a lecture on forgiving and seeing the good etc. which is out of line, but she learned it from nada. this sister apologizes all the time for her bossiness and cruelty to me growing up,and tries not to do it, but nada is amazing at disguising bossiness... you see the point. it is really hard. my husband is not a fan of this sister because of the way she treats me, but she is great about listening to me when I am hurt and tries and does change, so I am quick to forgive. it is so complicated. one thing I read recently that I found empowering was the notion that the way we treat people is not a reflection on them but on us. we should not respect people because they deserve it, but because it is the right thing to do. trust is something people have to earn. and love should be unconditional. love should not be a reward. nadas do that. being a loving person is the healthy and promotes our best selves which should be our goal. when we return the toxic behavior we perpetuate it. people who are simply in the habit of unhealthy and toxic behavior will respond to love and respect. nadas are a different story, but treating them with whatever respect we can muster (ie I intend to send nada a kid-made b-day card) then we can live up to our own ideal of goodness, and be happy in spite of the outcome. it is not about being a better person, but being a good person. Meikjn > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I understand what you are experiencing. I did okay with my family and my sister when I was still willing/able to be fake, but then I got real with myself and did heaps of growing through therapy and schooling and finding better people who value being real and supportive. It happened over time and involved various turning points. I eventually got to the point where I refused to be controlled, insisted on speaking my mind, and let go of caring if I was being judged. Either foo members dropped out of my life or me out of theirs. A really big part of having the emotional strength to do this for me was finding kinder, more real people to associate with. It is hard at first, because you are conditioned to find people and see in people that with which you are familiar. It is kind of wired into your brain and your nervous system at his point. But.......as you stated below, you already have some sense of a different kind of relationship with your husband and your grown daughters, so that is a very good sign and foundation. There is clearly something in you which not only allows a better, more real kind of relationship with people you care about, but also creates it. My suggestion is to start slow so as not to overwhelm yourself and to look for meaningful connections with like-minded people to yourself in social setting in which you are most comfortable and most likely to find good people. I found that I relate best to people who are interested in psychology, social work, personal growth and social justice issues. I gradually became more involved in events and institutions involving these things and even more gradually met people I really liked and got to know them socially. A subset of those became close friends. If you grew up in a foo where you were encouraged to be fake, you probably don't know yourself that well because you weren't supposed to. I had that trouble with that too. It was really hard work for me to get to know myself and I have to say therapy was very, very important in this process. If you had a BPD parent, I can't say strongly enough how useful it would be to find a gifted therapist who really understands " attachment " issues. Understanding BPD is only half the battle. That part is really important for validating your experience and helping you be strong about protecting yourself with boundaries and so on. But a grounding in " attachment theory " and the neurobiology and clinical interventions associated with attachment issues is necessary for a person to help you rewire your brain, learn to trust yourself and your own impulses and intuition about people and feel good about establishing meaningful connections with good people. The sense I have reading your posts is that you are wanting to reach out and establish real connections with others right now but you are fearful about it too. This makes total sense if it is the case. It is tough for most of us who were not blessed with good people in our formative years, but it is still possible. And.................you've started already, by finding your way here and opening yourself up to us. So keep posting and telling us about yourself and your experiences. HC > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi Robin, Your interpretation of what love is, is very different than mine, and one I haven't come across before; its an interesting view of love, though. I personally think that under normal, non-mentally-ill circumstances, an unconditional love is given by the parent to their baby, which is returned by the offspring in a mutual way. But I think that repeated abuse of the offspring can destroy love, or can cause the child to withdraw that bond of trust and love out of sheer survival instinct. I've heard this referred to as a parent " tearing up their parent card " ; as would be the case if the parent sexually exploits their own child, or nearly beats their child to death, or allows their child to nearly starve to death, etc., etc. Or, in some cases, if the parent commits a lifetime of emotional abuse, the cumulative damage and emotional trauma can cause the adult child to withdraw that special bond out of sheer survival instinct. Its hard for me to say this, but I feel that happened in my own case, and in my Sister's. Toward the end of my mother's life, I had stopped feeling love for her; really, the most I was able to feel toward her was pity and a kind of general humanitarian responsibility to help my Sister see to it that our mother's medical and care needs were being met. My Sister told me that she'd stopped thinking of this person as our *Mother* (and all the trust, love and devotion that is wrapped up in that honorable name), due to the chronic emotional abuse, and I felt the same way. So I guess that I can't separate liking and loving in that way: I can't think of anyone that I love but don't like. -Annie > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Dear robin I am a very touchy person but i would like you to know i was a liitle hurt by your response. I was trying to be helpful and to perhaps give you a different perspective. I try to avoid discussions like the difference between " liking " and " loving " . Thats just me. If you feel they love but dont like thats for you to judge. I just wanted you to know that i meant well and acknowledging my response and positive intention alng with fionas would have been nice. I do fully acknowledge i am touchy but i just wanted to share this. Sent from my mobile device. > Well...thanks for listening anyway Fiona. > > I don't agree that people don't love us if they want us to change. I think that we can love and be loved without being liked and that is probably the case here. My sisters just don't like me. And quite frankly I wouldn't choose them for friends either. But, I do believe they love me and I know I love them. I also believe that my mother loved me (as best a BPD can) and I know I loved her. Love is often not enough.. > > Re: Newbie > > > > > > Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found > > validation and support, and I know you will too. > > > > I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant > > PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity > > for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not > > be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my > > mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my > > personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the > > woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. > > > > Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? " > > > > Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would > > be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For > > learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not > > worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, > > because it probably means something else to them. > > > > E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our > > mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend > > time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. > > So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. > > " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that > > lasts about 2 hours. > > > > Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, > > critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like > > that, either. > > > > I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your > > feelings and your situation with your siblings. > > > > Take care, > > > > Fiona > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. Meikjn > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi Annie,  I have the same feeling towards my mother too. After my mother cut me down so low and was threatening to harm me, I went into survival mode just to get out. I agree with you on your point of view with how love can be formed and destroyed. I too don't feel any love towards my mother. All I feel for her is sympathy towards her behaviour. I feel like if my mother truely loved me, she would see how damaging her abusive bahaviour is towards me, herself and others and at least try to address her problem. But I know this will never happen. She thinks she is always right, and accuses me of putting words into her mouth. In fact, I don't think that she sees me as her daughter any more, but some sort of monster. And there is nothing I can do to change her. I just jave to concentrate on healing from my emotional and psychological wounds and working on my mind set and my own behaviour. But I feel like I am being selfish, which makes me feel even more terrible.  If I don't like someone, I just don't associate with them. But I am still polite towards them if they speak to me, however I try and stay away from people who I dislike. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sunday, 15 January 2012 1:19 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  Hi Robin, Your interpretation of what love is, is very different than mine, and one I haven't come across before; its an interesting view of love, though. I personally think that under normal, non-mentally-ill circumstances, an unconditional love is given by the parent to their baby, which is returned by the offspring in a mutual way. But I think that repeated abuse of the offspring can destroy love, or can cause the child to withdraw that bond of trust and love out of sheer survival instinct. I've heard this referred to as a parent " tearing up their parent card " ; as would be the case if the parent sexually exploits their own child, or nearly beats their child to death, or allows their child to nearly starve to death, etc., etc. Or, in some cases, if the parent commits a lifetime of emotional abuse, the cumulative damage and emotional trauma can cause the adult child to withdraw that special bond out of sheer survival instinct. Its hard for me to say this, but I feel that happened in my own case, and in my Sister's. Toward the end of my mother's life, I had stopped feeling love for her; really, the most I was able to feel toward her was pity and a kind of general humanitarian responsibility to help my Sister see to it that our mother's medical and care needs were being met. My Sister told me that she'd stopped thinking of this person as our *Mother* (and all the trust, love and devotion that is wrapped up in that honorable name), due to the chronic emotional abuse, and I felt the same way. So I guess that I can't separate liking and loving in that way: I can't think of anyone that I love but don't like. -Annie > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi HC, You sound the world like my DH. His FOO is toxic and only get together occassionally, thank goodness. His nada is the source of most of it and he is the scapegoat, always has been. I can relate totally to your feeling mistrusting and anxious around your FOO, so do I. I too have found dear friends and colleagues whom I have healthy relationships with and have a wonderful DH and two adult kids. They (DH and kids) are the only people, other than this board and all of you, whom I can trust to talk to about my nada and MIL, who is also BP. I too feel like an outcast in my FOO because I am not fake and always trying to " keep up with the Jonses " , etc. I often feel as if perhaps I was adopted and that was why I am so different from my FOO in so many ways, but I am the spitting image of my dad if he were a girl, so I am definately not adopted. I get criticized for not being aggressive enough, not competitive enough, not being caddy, and it goes on and on. Both my sisters arend now totally emeshed with nada a me and my DH are the outsiders. It is so evident, and although most days I am fine with this, sometimes it grows old and hurts still. To address the question at hand, do you try and be among them in the toxins and anxiety or not? I have had to set definate boundries like family gatherings no longer than 3-4 hours (rather than all day), and of course have been given the cold shoulder, ignored, punished, etc. for merely suggesting this, but oh well. Now when we go at least everyone knows we are there, but there is an end time that me and mine can live with so mentaly we can tolerate going. Another thing is I too find it enough to call every week or so and see them occassionaly. My sisters see or talk to nada pretty much daily. So I am the " distant " daughter, I still call, just not as often. Deal with it! And as far as my DH FOO, they are more toxic than mine. We see them about twice a year and stay very surfacy. We connect a bit and don't stay long. We right now don't have MIL here as she recently was very disrespectful and we addressed it and now need space. It is a changing situation and everyone has to answer it for themselves. I can't picture us going NC with either side, but sometimes it sounds tempting. I know that since I have set boundries for myself and mine I feel stronger and better about myself, not guilty. I think that although I have been punished by nada for setting boundries, in some wierd way she respects that I have, even if she complains. So be kind to yourself and set your boundries. How you feel matters too and you are enough and deserve respect and emotional health and joy in this life. > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 At the end of the day, every one of our family members that has been subjected to BPD abuse/family dysfunction is carrying their own scars and learned ways of coping. Not only that, through therapy and other modes of recovery, each of our family members have their own 'reality' of the family and what their role is within the family. Not everyone is going to be able to be real. I have a terrific relationship with my sister right now. I expect it to be good down the line because we will compromise with each other to keep it so. But I *know* there are things we each do/think that the other disagrees with or doesn't understand. I can totally wrap my head around loving someone in you FOO that you really don't like as a person or share the same reality with. I've lived much of my life feeling this duality with my FOO. Or loving FOO that you can't be sure you can really trust. It's sad, and unfortunate. Keep in mind that circumstances may force one or more siblings to change their thinking. Deaths, divorce, and illness can kick off a change in thinking. And once this journey of processing starts, only God knows where it is going to end! > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Annie This struck a cord with me. I've been wondering why I felt nothing for my mother, father or sister(she is a carbon copy of mother) for years. Your reference to " tearing up the parent card " made so much sense. Even though my FOO are very high functioning and looked " normal " on the outside I've been trying to find a good memory (any memory with them in it) that did not have a negative connotation attached to it that I could latch onto. I haven't found one and it makes me sad. I have kept telling myself that I haven't looked hard enough but perhaps they are just not there. I have been told so many times that " when you have your own kids you'll feel close to your mother and will understand her better " . The opposite is true, I understand her less (how could she do what she did?) and want her nowhere near my beautiful children. If anything the person that I wanted around was my nan who died when I was 19 so I've come to realise that it was my nan that I bonded to as an infant and who I have to thank for the good grounding that I do have. I guess it was fortunate that nan was mum's babysitter whilst she went off and did what she wanted to do (ie: work). I tried so hard to reach out for years, to invite dialogue and form connections but they were always too busy or they plain didn't give a crap in addition to all the gaslighting that was part of every interaction. Yet apparently its my fault that the relationship is broken according to them. As I've unraveled some of the lies (pull downs, etc.) about myself over the last couple of years I have become more distant from them emotionally - as I found ME their influence became smaller. I do dread any form of contact - its still toxic. I am more than ready to go NC, I don't miss them when they are not around, but haven't done so yet mainly because I do not want the drama (talk about confused reasoning). I guess what I'm saying is that in my case I feel nothing for my FOO (no like, love, dislike or hate) except anxiety, obligation (social construct?) and a distinct lack of trust. Anyway I think that's enough from me for now. LT > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi HC,  That's just it though...my two sisters say the same thing about me, that I have been conditioned to be 'this way' by my mother (blunt, not overly nice, not overly ingratiating) and that I need to be nicer to people and more polite like they are. They believe that their way is 'the way' and that I am doing it wrong. But, at the same time, they are the ones who either will not go to therapy or continually find fault with the therapists they do go to. I think they justify seeing me as 'wrong' because I am like my mother in this regard and we all know how wrong she was.  I have tried, in the past and for many years to do as you suggested and find like minded people who I can have a freindship or relationship with, but it always ends up being too much work for me with too little reward. What I mean is that it is exhausting and at the end of the day I'm wondering why I'm putting so much of myself into this? I do work hard at my relationships with my husband and daughters, but it is well worth it to me. But, I do insist that they meet me half way...well not so much with my children.  I think because I am such an introvert and need such alot of time alone to energize that I might be better off just continuing along as I am. I do hate to lose the relationships I have had with my siblings because they are the only close relationships I have with anyone outside of the three I have mentioned and there is a feeling of having wasted years of effort to overcome our mutual pain that feels bad to me. It's like we had to go through this abusive stuff as children and then we find this close, supportive umbrella under which to try to find a way to heal and then it turns out that this healing process was just as dysfuntional in its own way.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:11:46 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  I understand what you are experiencing. I did okay with my family and my sister when I was still willing/able to be fake, but then I got real with myself and did heaps of growing through therapy and schooling and finding better people who value being real and supportive. It happened over time and involved various turning points. I eventually got to the point where I refused to be controlled, insisted on speaking my mind, and let go of caring if I was being judged. Either foo members dropped out of my life or me out of theirs. A really big part of having the emotional strength to do this for me was finding kinder, more real people to associate with. It is hard at first, because you are conditioned to find people and see in people that with which you are familiar. It is kind of wired into your brain and your nervous system at his point. But.......as you stated below, you already have some sense of a different kind of relationship with your husband and your grown daughters, so that is a very good sign and foundation. There is clearly something in you which not only allows a better, more real kind of relationship with people you care about, but also creates it. My suggestion is to start slow so as not to overwhelm yourself and to look for meaningful connections with like-minded people to yourself in social setting in which you are most comfortable and most likely to find good people. I found that I relate best to people who are interested in psychology, social work, personal growth and social justice issues. I gradually became more involved in events and institutions involving these things and even more gradually met people I really liked and got to know them socially. A subset of those became close friends. If you grew up in a foo where you were encouraged to be fake, you probably don't know yourself that well because you weren't supposed to. I had that trouble with that too. It was really hard work for me to get to know myself and I have to say therapy was very, very important in this process. If you had a BPD parent, I can't say strongly enough how useful it would be to find a gifted therapist who really understands " attachment " issues. Understanding BPD is only half the battle. That part is really important for validating your experience and helping you be strong about protecting yourself with boundaries and so on. But a grounding in " attachment theory " and the neurobiology and clinical interventions associated with attachment issues is necessary for a person to help you rewire your brain, learn to trust yourself and your own impulses and intuition about people and feel good about establishing meaningful connections with good people. The sense I have reading your posts is that you are wanting to reach out and establish real connections with others right now but you are fearful about it too. This makes total sense if it is the case. It is tough for most of us who were not blessed with good people in our formative years, but it is still possible. And.................you've started already, by finding your way here and opening yourself up to us. So keep posting and telling us about yourself and your experiences. HC > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Annie,  Well perhaps love is as subjective as everything else we experience. I have always loved my mother and siblings and there are quite a few of them I don't like and would never voluntarily choose to have a relationship with. The ties that bind for me have always been family (foo.. I mean) although I do love my husband very much and, of course, my children who I love more than anything or anyone. I feel that, for me, I will always love these people no matter what happens to them, or me, or our relationships and I guess that this is what I call unconditional love. But, I know that I won't tolerate just anything from them because of this love. Conditional love, for me, would be when love toward an individual is felt, but only under certain conditions and if those conditions are not met, then love is not felt anymore.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:19:19 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  Hi Robin, Your interpretation of what love is, is very different than mine, and one I haven't come across before; its an interesting view of love, though. I personally think that under normal, non-mentally-ill circumstances, an unconditional love is given by the parent to their baby, which is returned by the offspring in a mutual way. But I think that repeated abuse of the offspring can destroy love, or can cause the child to withdraw that bond of trust and love out of sheer survival instinct. I've heard this referred to as a parent " tearing up their parent card " ; as would be the case if the parent sexually exploits their own child, or nearly beats their child to death, or allows their child to nearly starve to death, etc., etc. Or, in some cases, if the parent commits a lifetime of emotional abuse, the cumulative damage and emotional trauma can cause the adult child to withdraw that special bond out of sheer survival instinct. Its hard for me to say this, but I feel that happened in my own case, and in my Sister's. Toward the end of my mother's life, I had stopped feeling love for her; really, the most I was able to feel toward her was pity and a kind of general humanitarian responsibility to help my Sister see to it that our mother's medical and care needs were being met. My Sister told me that she'd stopped thinking of this person as our *Mother* (and all the trust, love and devotion that is wrapped up in that honorable name), due to the chronic emotional abuse, and I felt the same way. So I guess that I can't separate liking and loving in that way: I can't think of anyone that I love but don't like. -Annie > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm not suprised that you were hurt by my non-response. This is exactly how my sister's experience me too. I'm just not recieved as nice enough or polite enough. If it makes any difference to you at all I had no idea that my non-response would have this effect. It was not intentional on my part. However, if you do acknowledge that you are touchy, then I have to wonder what the purpose of this message to me is. ________________________________ To: " WTOAdultChildren1 " <WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 2:22:26 PM Subject: Re: Re: Newbie  Dear robin I am a very touchy person but i would like you to know i was a liitle hurt by your response. I was trying to be helpful and to perhaps give you a different perspective. I try to avoid discussions like the difference between " liking " and " loving " . Thats just me. If you feel they love but dont like thats for you to judge. I just wanted you to know that i meant well and acknowledging my response and positive intention alng with fionas would have been nice. I do fully acknowledge i am touchy but i just wanted to share this. Sent from my mobile device. > Well...thanks for listening anyway Fiona. > > I don't agree that people don't love us if they want us to change. I think that we can love and be loved without being liked and that is probably the case here. My sisters just don't like me. And quite frankly I wouldn't choose them for friends either. But, I do believe they love me and I know I love them. I also believe that my mother loved me (as best a BPD can) and I know I loved her. Love is often not enough.. > > Re: Newbie > > > > > > Hi there and welcome. This is a wonderful group where I've found > > validation and support, and I know you will too. > > > > I also have avoidant tendencies; my therapist says I don't have avoidant > > PD; sometimes I'm not so sure. Like yourself, it is an absolute necessity > > for me to recharge my batteries and be alone. It's been so freeing to not > > be ashamed of that and accept that about myself. My parents, mostly my > > mother, as I grew up, would criticize and shame me about this aspect of my > > personality. I felt like a freak, esp b/c our culture is one where the > > woman is all Charo, coochee, coochee! Soo not me. > > > > Anyway, you had asked, " Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? " > > > > Of course, I don't have a clear answer for you; my question is what would > > be the motive for either learning to deal with them or avoiding them? For > > learning to deal with them, if your motive is to change them, it's not > > worth doing. If it 's to grow closer to them, what does that mean to you?, > > because it probably means something else to them. > > > > E.g., I would like to be closer to my brother, who is enmeshed w/our > > mother. But to him, " closer " means talking every day, and when we spend > > time together, our visit has to last between 4 - 8 hours. It's suffocating. > > So that's why I asked about your definition of " closer. " I can't do that. > > " Closer " to me means checking in once in a while and grabbing a meal that > > lasts about 2 hours. > > > > Only you know if you need to go NC with your siblings. If they are toxic, > > critical, emotionally destructive, I wouldn't want to be around people like > > that, either. > > > > I highly recommend seeing a therapist to help you sift through all of your > > feelings and your situation with your siblings. > > > > Take care, > > > > Fiona > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother > > had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I > > think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably > > alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and > > decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and > > distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, > > but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I > > no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I > > 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means > > that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a > > problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two > > older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best > > interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do > > because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I > > would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my > > siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work > > and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to > > completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have > > the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything > > about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit > > them. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Meikjn,  I agree totally. I guess my dilemma is that I don't fully trust that my standard is 'right' for me or necessarily in my best interest so I'm always trying to see things from as many other perspectives as possible. But, in the end we do have to choose and then act on that choice.  Robin  ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 3:19:00 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. Meikjn > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 But, don't you think that needing to like someone in order to love them is conditional?  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:35:06 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  At the end of the day, every one of our family members that has been subjected to BPD abuse/family dysfunction is carrying their own scars and learned ways of coping. Not only that, through therapy and other modes of recovery, each of our family members have their own 'reality' of the family and what their role is within the family. Not everyone is going to be able to be real. I have a terrific relationship with my sister right now. I expect it to be good down the line because we will compromise with each other to keep it so. But I *know* there are things we each do/think that the other disagrees with or doesn't understand. I can totally wrap my head around loving someone in you FOO that you really don't like as a person or share the same reality with. I've lived much of my life feeling this duality with my FOO. Or loving FOO that you can't be sure you can really trust. It's sad, and unfortunate. Keep in mind that circumstances may force one or more siblings to change their thinking. Deaths, divorce, and illness can kick off a change in thinking. And once this journey of processing starts, only God knows where it is going to end! > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > Meikjn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Amen. > > > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > > Meikjn > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Ditto the Amen. Them was some wise words echobabe. HC > > > > > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > > > > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > > > Meikjn > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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