Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Maybe that's the difference then: the idea of unconditional vs conditional love. As in, when a baby is first born, the love that the parent feels for their infant is unconditional, and in return the infant/toddler/child feels unconditional love for the parent(s). So in my own case, as I grew up, I was still freely, desperately giving unconditional love to someone who was really rather severely abusive to me in a chronic but unpredictable way. As an adult, I found that for me, I could not continue to supply unconditional love to someone who kept hurting me; my love became conditional. Then at a very late point in my nada's life, when her emotional abusiveness ramped up even more (and was more directed at my Sister than at me) I gave up altogether and withdrew even the conditional love. When I did that, I grieved as though my mother had actually physically died; that's what it felt like. But it was the death of my love for her that I was grieving, I think. My mother's recent physical death still had an impact on me and I'm still processing that, but I believe I had already done most of my deep grieving years ago. Yes, I agree; how we feel about the concept of what love is, how it is shown or shared, is very subjective. -Annie > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Wow, that was a really interesting way to frame it: " it was the death of my love for her that I was grieving " . I had a very similar experience of grieving my own nada. There was an additional element to it for me. I also grieved the loss of the hope that she would ever really see me as me or come around and be the loving mother I wished for and thought I once knew. So I think I was grieving the loss of my own hope. I remember spending the better part of the day, the day after my wedding, sobbing with grief in the bath tub. When I look back on it now it makes me feel like a pathetic, drama queen, but the grief was so palpable at the time. My poor ex-husband - he just wanted to get me into the marital sack. HC > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 That makes sense to me, I think I was grieving both the death of my love for my mother and the loss of hope that she could ever change. And she never did; Sister recently filled me in on some things nada had said to her over the last few years, and even earlier, which made it clear that my nada had these fixed negative feelings toward me, and paranoid or delusional beliefs about me that never changed. The only change was that as Alzheimer's set in and ate away her executive function, mother's paranoid, delusional beliefs began to include other people (she felt that my Sister, and nada's friends, acquaintances, care-givers and doctors were trying to poison her/hurt her/steal from her) and then, that the hallucinated people she saw and heard were too. I was just considering this the other day, that when dad was alive he was a huge stabilizing influence on my nada; when he died, that steady, stabilizing presence was gone and her runaway train of emotional dysregulation and paranoid/delusional ideation had no brakes. Its all just pretty damned sad. The saddest part (to me) is that someone that mentally ill was left to care for little children pretty much alone, because she was so high-functioning that she appeared normal and even charming in public. Sister and I are lucky to be as functional as we are, really. -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Annie - this recent post of yours really resonated with me. While my mother is still alive - she is very sick with cancer. I recenlty overheard her speaking about me to one of my brothers on the phone and it just proved that she (like your nada) also has VERY fixed negative feelings towards me. She was speaking about something and when she referred to me she sais, " oh you know what she is like. " This is the way it has been my whole life - she has projected all her stuff onto me and brainwashed my brothers into believing I am the problem and that I am difficult and that I cause all the problems. It has been easy for my brothers to buy into this character assassination because it allows them to be safe from her poison. What disturbs me the most is that no matter how much I do or try to be the perfect daughter (when my brothers are NEVER available for the dirty work), she stabs me in the back and uses any opportunity to rip me apart and bring me down. My younger brother shows up and takes her out to dinner and HE IS THE GOOD ONE! She forgets that in that I have cleaned her filthy, lost work and my career has suffered while I support her with her cancer. I get so angry still about this and wonder how anyone else deals with the painful inequity in the way their nadas treat them and their siblings - especially when my brothers buy into her games and revel in making me the target. I really, really hate my family. There is absolutely no love for them in me lately. Koko > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 (((((Koko))))) Yes, being the scapegoat and treated unfairly by your whole foo is heart-breaking and so damned unfair. In my family it was my little Sister who was the scapegoat. I read an article somewhere (I'll try and find it and link to it) that a dysfunctional family dynamic is sort of like a wolf-pack. There is the alpha wolf (or alpha pair) that has the most power, and rules/dominates all others in the pack. The next-lowest wolf, the beta, can dominate anyone lower in the pack than himself, and so on down the line, leaving the bottom-ranked wolf, the Omega wolf, as the target of every other wolf in the pack. If the Omega wolf dies or leaves the pack, then the next-lowest becomes the Omega. So in a way, the dysfunctional family needs the Omega or scapegoat child to remain in the family in that fixed position, because if he or she leaves & refuses to be part of the foo any longer, then the next-lowest-ranked sibling becomes the scapegoat/Omega. And NObody wants that position. -Annie > > Hi Annie - this recent post of yours really resonated with me. While my mother is still alive - she is very sick with cancer. I recenlty overheard her speaking about me to one of my brothers on the phone and it just proved that she (like your nada) also has VERY fixed negative feelings towards me. She was speaking about something and when she referred to me she sais, " oh you know what she is like. " > > This is the way it has been my whole life - she has projected all her stuff onto me and brainwashed my brothers into believing I am the problem and that I am difficult and that I cause all the problems. It has been easy for my brothers to buy into this character assassination because it allows them to be safe from her poison. > > What disturbs me the most is that no matter how much I do or try to be the perfect daughter (when my brothers are NEVER available for the dirty work), she stabs me in the back and uses any opportunity to rip me apart and bring me down. My younger brother shows up and takes her out to dinner and HE IS THE GOOD ONE! She forgets that in that I have cleaned her filthy, lost work and my career has suffered while I support her with her cancer. > > I get so angry still about this and wonder how anyone else deals with the painful inequity in the way their nadas treat them and their siblings - especially when my brothers buy into her games and revel in making me the target. > > I really, really hate my family. There is absolutely no love for them in me lately. > > Koko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thank you Annie Your story is SOOOOO similar to mine - I really relish your feedback and your wisdom here > > > > Hi Annie - this recent post of yours really resonated with me. While my mother is still alive - she is very sick with cancer. I recenlty overheard her speaking about me to one of my brothers on the phone and it just proved that she (like your nada) also has VERY fixed negative feelings towards me. She was speaking about something and when she referred to me she sais, " oh you know what she is like. " > > > > This is the way it has been my whole life - she has projected all her stuff onto me and brainwashed my brothers into believing I am the problem and that I am difficult and that I cause all the problems. It has been easy for my brothers to buy into this character assassination because it allows them to be safe from her poison. > > > > What disturbs me the most is that no matter how much I do or try to be the perfect daughter (when my brothers are NEVER available for the dirty work), she stabs me in the back and uses any opportunity to rip me apart and bring me down. My younger brother shows up and takes her out to dinner and HE IS THE GOOD ONE! She forgets that in that I have cleaned her filthy, lost work and my career has suffered while I support her with her cancer. > > > > I get so angry still about this and wonder how anyone else deals with the painful inequity in the way their nadas treat them and their siblings - especially when my brothers buy into her games and revel in making me the target. > > > > I really, really hate my family. There is absolutely no love for them in me lately. > > > > Koko > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Yes, actually. I love my dysfunctional FOO, but some of them I don't really like and can't trust. If that isn't unconditional love, I don't know what is. It isn't a choice to care for them, I just do, in spite of themselves. Instead I just choose to limit my exposure to them, and try to not fumble boundaries when situations arise. > > > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > > Meikjn > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions.  I hope you have someone to lean on through the process.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:19:48 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  Maybe that's the difference then: the idea of unconditional vs conditional love. As in, when a baby is first born, the love that the parent feels for their infant is unconditional, and in return the infant/toddler/child feels unconditional love for the parent(s). So in my own case, as I grew up, I was still freely, desperately giving unconditional love to someone who was really rather severely abusive to me in a chronic but unpredictable way. As an adult, I found that for me, I could not continue to supply unconditional love to someone who kept hurting me; my love became conditional. Then at a very late point in my nada's life, when her emotional abusiveness ramped up even more (and was more directed at my Sister than at me) I gave up altogether and withdrew even the conditional love. When I did that, I grieved as though my mother had actually physically died; that's what it felt like. But it was the death of my love for her that I was grieving, I think. My mother's recent physical death still had an impact on me and I'm still processing that, but I believe I had already done most of my deep grieving years ago. Yes, I agree; how we feel about the concept of what love is, how it is shown or shared, is very subjective. -Annie > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't think it's pathetic at all. I had a similar reaction to my mother's death and I think most of it was the realization that I would never have the kind of mother I thought she could be and that I was never strong enough to save her. It was so painful that it was worse than the most horrific physical pain I have ever experienced.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:32:43 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  Wow, that was a really interesting way to frame it: " it was the death of my love for her that I was grieving " . I had a very similar experience of grieving my own nada. There was an additional element to it for me. I also grieved the loss of the hope that she would ever really see me as me or come around and be the loving mother I wished for and thought I once knew. So I think I was grieving the loss of my own hope. I remember spending the better part of the day, the day after my wedding, sobbing with grief in the bath tub. When I look back on it now it makes me feel like a pathetic, drama queen, but the grief was so palpable at the time. My poor ex-husband - he just wanted to get me into the marital sack. HC > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 One of my favorite movies is 'As Good As It Gets' and one of my favorite lines from it goes something like this. 'It's not that your that p*ssed that you had it that bad, but that so many other people had it so good'.  My mantra is 'It is what it is' and I have chosen to parent myself. Part of my therapy was learning how to do that. I imagined myself as a little girl, sometime when I felt alone and abandoned and then I imagined that my adult self came up to this lonely, little girl and I took her by the hand and I said, " You come with me now. I'm going to be your mother from now on. I know what's best for you and I will make sure that you're O.K. " .  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:55:06 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  That makes sense to me, I think I was grieving both the death of my love for my mother and the loss of hope that she could ever change. And she never did; Sister recently filled me in on some things nada had said to her over the last few years, and even earlier, which made it clear that my nada had these fixed negative feelings toward me, and paranoid or delusional beliefs about me that never changed. The only change was that as Alzheimer's set in and ate away her executive function, mother's paranoid, delusional beliefs began to include other people (she felt that my Sister, and nada's friends, acquaintances, care-givers and doctors were trying to poison her/hurt her/steal from her) and then, that the hallucinated people she saw and heard were too. I was just considering this the other day, that when dad was alive he was a huge stabilizing influence on my nada; when he died, that steady, stabilizing presence was gone and her runaway train of emotional dysregulation and paranoid/delusional ideation had no brakes. Its all just pretty damned sad. The saddest part (to me) is that someone that mentally ill was left to care for little children pretty much alone, because she was so high-functioning that she appeared normal and even charming in public. Sister and I are lucky to be as functional as we are, really. -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am exactly the same. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 3:37:24 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  Yes, actually. I love my dysfunctional FOO, but some of them I don't really like and can't trust. If that isn't unconditional love, I don't know what is. It isn't a choice to care for them, I just do, in spite of themselves. Instead I just choose to limit my exposure to them, and try to not fumble boundaries when situations arise. > > > > you are right being a " good person " is totally subjective. > > > > the point I was trying to make is that in order for us to be secure with ourselves we should establish our own standard of goodness, and live up to it, and ignore others out of line expectations. > > Meikjn > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 In a way (you stated that you never stopped loving your nada) you remind me of my Sister, who was able to physically be there and remain in limited contact with our nada in spite of the emotional abuse nada heaped on her. That to me demonstrated love: providing care for someone even though they treat you hatefully. Sister told me that she, Sister, no longer felt any real love for our nada, she was just determined to see things through to the end because she had promised to do so a long time ago. She felt no love, yet she acted in a loving way; to me that is saintly. For my own part, I simply can't imaging feeling love toward someone (anyone) who would physically attack my little child; getting hit on the head with a hard object could have given your child a serious traumatic brain injury. So, you and my Sister are made of sterner stuff than me, I guess. Sister was able to act in a loving way toward our nada (even though she did not feel loving toward her) and you were able to retain your feeling of love for your nada even though she harmed your child. You and my Sister are admirable people. When it came down to the wire, I chose my own survival. I consciously chose to stop loving my nada and stop being in contact with her. And yet, for better or worse, I don't feel very guilty about that; very little guilt. -Annie > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. >  > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. >  > Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Interesting. I could take my mother's emotional abuse as long as it was directed toward me. When she physically abused my daughter (14 years old at the time) I felt that she had forced my hand. You would think that I would be furious and lash out at her, but I was not the 'sterner stuff' you think I was, I was torn between the two, my mother and daughter, as if they were both my children. I have always felt like I was not a very good mother for my daughter in those moments because I didn't rise up against her enemy both in my heart and in my actions. I quietly told my mother that I thought she was past all of this at her age and I removed myself and my children from her life. She attempted to send my younger daughter presents after that, but I always sent them back. And then she died three years later. Funny how these few sentences can sum up my life with my mother to that moment so succinctly and yet leave such alot out. I still miss her and still am so glad she is dead. Both of my children seem to think I have been wounded horribly by my mother although I don't talk about the things she did to me much with them. They seem to have great compassion for me in this regard. I have always been puzzled by this because my nieces don't feel the same compassion for their mothers (my sisters) and their mothers have been lamenting the poor parenting they recieved since I can remember.  Contrary to your sister, I did not act lovingly toward my mother after that, but never stopped feeling love for her. This was not a choice for me or at least it felt like a had no choice in the matter. It has always been that way for me. Once I feel 'love' for someone, then I always feel love for them. That is probably why I grieved so much when she died. This is not something to be admired, but your sister certainly seems saintly in her actions.  I don't know why you would feel guilty about your choice to stop loving your mother. Each of us must choose our own path and our own way of best dealing with life. There is no 'right or wrong' in these cases. You did what you needed to do to survive.  Robin    ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 11:30:27 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  In a way (you stated that you never stopped loving your nada) you remind me of my Sister, who was able to physically be there and remain in limited contact with our nada in spite of the emotional abuse nada heaped on her. That to me demonstrated love: providing care for someone even though they treat you hatefully. Sister told me that she, Sister, no longer felt any real love for our nada, she was just determined to see things through to the end because she had promised to do so a long time ago. She felt no love, yet she acted in a loving way; to me that is saintly. For my own part, I simply can't imaging feeling love toward someone (anyone) who would physically attack my little child; getting hit on the head with a hard object could have given your child a serious traumatic brain injury. So, you and my Sister are made of sterner stuff than me, I guess. Sister was able to act in a loving way toward our nada (even though she did not feel loving toward her) and you were able to retain your feeling of love for your nada even though she harmed your child. You and my Sister are admirable people. When it came down to the wire, I chose my own survival. I consciously chose to stop loving my nada and stop being in contact with her. And yet, for better or worse, I don't feel very guilty about that; very little guilt. -Annie > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. >  > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. >  > Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Robin, I do that too. It does help. Especially when you identify times that no one else either acknowledged or recognized how abandoned or sad you felt, but you know, and can now be there as the mother for yourself, as that little girl. I get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Yes, its very individual. Intellectually I realize that choosing my own survival (or, my own emotional health) over my nada's feelings was not wrong and nothing to feel guilty about, yet I still have some residual guilt. I guess that's why I feel so much empathy for those in this Group who are fighting to overcome massive amounts of misplaced guilt and inappropriate feelings of responsibility to care for their nadas no matter how abusive she is. I think those feelings are the hardest to get past, even when they are extraordinarily misplaced and blatantly inappropriate. -Annie > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > >  > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > >  > > Robin > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Hi ,  I think it's a way of loving yourself. Something many of us didn't learn as children.  Robin   ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 1:00:50 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  Robin, I do that too. It does help. Especially when you identify times that no one else either acknowledged or recognized how abandoned or sad you felt, but you know, and can now be there as the mother for yourself, as that little girl. I get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new and just learning about BPD. I had figured out that my mother had narcissistic personality disorder after her death 7 years ago, but I think she was also BP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have four siblings and there is quite a history between us, probably alot of trauma bonding. I finally went for therapy a few years ago and decided afterwards that my relationships with my siblings were dysfuntional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bit of background...I find that I am somewhat avoidant, schizoid, and distrusting of people in general. This tendancy has always existed in me, but has become more pronounced as I have aged. I believe this is because I no longer try to 'fit in' and have become more comfortable with who I 'really' am (if there is such a thing). Being an extreme introvert means that I need alot of time alone anyway so my avoidant behaviour is not a problem for me. However, I recently had a bit of a kurfuffle with my two older sisters and afterwards decided that it was probably in my best interests to stay away from them as much as possible. This is easy to do because we live far apart. As time goes by I feel more and more that I would prefer not to see them at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is my dilemma...Would it be best for me to learn to deal with my siblings in a completely different way, which would require alot of work and anxiety and may not even happen? Or would it be best for me to completely avoid them? We are all around 50 years old (48-54) and I have the distinct impression that they are not interested in changing anything about themselves or our relationship unless it is me who changes to suit them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I agree. Guilt is only useful if it is used as a tool to change future behavior. It is utterly useless as a tool to beat yourself up forever.  I think that when we don't care for ourselves or love ourselves as we should (to a level that is appropriate for us to both survive and thrive), then we are more willing to sacrifice ourselves for others, especially if those others have convinced us that they are more worthy than we are.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 6:35:13 PM Subject: Re: Newbie  Yes, its very individual. Intellectually I realize that choosing my own survival (or, my own emotional health) over my nada's feelings was not wrong and nothing to feel guilty about, yet I still have some residual guilt. I guess that's why I feel so much empathy for those in this Group who are fighting to overcome massive amounts of misplaced guilt and inappropriate feelings of responsibility to care for their nadas no matter how abusive she is. I think those feelings are the hardest to get past, even when they are extraordinarily misplaced and blatantly inappropriate. -Annie > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > >  > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > >  > > Robin > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 In my case, it seemed to me that if I continued to feel love toward my mother, it would just keep me vulnerable to more abuse from her, and I was unable to be objective and not take her abusive treatment personally. It *always* hurt me when she'd say cruel, insulting things to me, I was never able to step back and say, " This is her mental illness, what she says about me to me is not true, and its nothing I need to take personally. " I simply couldn't or was unable do that, could not separate my mother from her illness or her behaviors; to me, a person IS the cumulative result of their behaviors: what you say and what you do IS you; to others, anyway. That of course is just my own take on it; amy own very subjective point of view. In any case I agree with your point, and at least in my own case I believe that I was trained from birth to feel inferior to my mother and that she had the right to feel superior to me and to treat me in any way or manner she chose. And so the theory you describe seems to be a good theory to me about the origins of inappropriate, misplaced guilt, RE the person with pd using guilt as a manipulative weapon, and the child of the person with pd being subjected to it. -Annie > > > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > > >  > > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > > >  > > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Yes taking things personally has been a cross I have borne for a long time. Therapy helped me to learn to let things go and how to soothe myself, but I have to talk myself off the cliff often enough especially with cetrtain 'triggers'. Ultimately, I have found that it is my self talk that makes the most difference in my overall feelings of positiveness or negativeness. I realize that our brains are very plastic and with the right tools and alot of work we can change the way we've been taught to think.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 11:25:52 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  In my case, it seemed to me that if I continued to feel love toward my mother, it would just keep me vulnerable to more abuse from her, and I was unable to be objective and not take her abusive treatment personally. It *always* hurt me when she'd say cruel, insulting things to me, I was never able to step back and say, " This is her mental illness, what she says about me to me is not true, and its nothing I need to take personally. " I simply couldn't or was unable do that, could not separate my mother from her illness or her behaviors; to me, a person IS the cumulative result of their behaviors: what you say and what you do IS you; to others, anyway. That of course is just my own take on it; amy own very subjective point of view. In any case I agree with your point, and at least in my own case I believe that I was trained from birth to feel inferior to my mother and that she had the right to feel superior to me and to treat me in any way or manner she chose. And so the theory you describe seems to be a good theory to me about the origins of inappropriate, misplaced guilt, RE the person with pd using guilt as a manipulative weapon, and the child of the person with pd being subjected to it. -Annie > > > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > > >  > > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > > >  > > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Somehow, I was able to achieve the hurdle of objectivity and the ability to not take things so personally with everyone *except* my nada. Somehow, with her, that never happened. Taking her negativity, attacks and accusations personally only subsided somewhat very recently, with the onset of her senile dementia (even though at the time I didn't realize that that was what was ramping up my nada's emotional abusiveness.) I just knew for sure that I had to cease contact with her for my own sake. Having contact with her was starting to result in debilitating physical symptoms for me; my body was telling me to go No Contact, so I did. It took a very, very long time; pretty much my entire life up to this point, for my love for my mother to die out. But remaining so loyally enmeshed with my nada for such a long, long time was probably due to a lot of factors, including my being trauma-bonded to nada early in life (the single most negative, toxic, life-altering thing she did to me was a kind of quasi-rape when I was about 4, if you can wrap your mind around a mother doing that to her own child) plus my dad not stepping in to confront or control her abusiveness or validate that I was in fact being emotional and physically abused and traumatized repeatedly. So, that put the seal on the deal: it was OK for my mother to treat me any way she damn well pleased, say anything to me, scrape me over a cheese grater emotionally, and physically assault me (and my little Sister)... and that was simply OK with dad and the way things were. Mom was always right. Mom ruled. Mom's skewed, warped reality was my reality. I wish I'd had the guts to go into therapy much, much earlier in my adult life; I think that would probably have made a big (and positive) difference in my life-trajectory. -Annie > > > > > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 'What if's' aren't much more useful than guilt in this regard. You would probably not have benefitted from therapy if you had gone earlier because you were not emotionally ready to take it all in and make the changes. Therapy requires a kind of tearing down of ourselves (our egos) or the selves that we have always identified with and then we must start to build ourselves again from scratch. That's a scary proposition. I have this quote that I intend to frame and hang on my wall and it really speaks to me about our natures as humans and the difficulty we find in change....  " We would rather be ruined than changed. We would rather die in our dread, than climb the cross of the present and let our illusions die. "  W.H. Auden  Our mothers were only able to do what they did to us because they had a complicit mate. They chose him because he would accept them for what they are. It could not have been any other way. If he had ever grown a backbone and conscience and decided to step in on behalf of his children, then she would have left with her children and found someone who would comply with her demands. There was no way things could have been any different for us than what they were. All we can do now is accept that we were not meant to have 'good' parents and embrace the good things we do have now.  Robin ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:46:17 AM Subject: Re: Newbie  Somehow, I was able to achieve the hurdle of objectivity and the ability to not take things so personally with everyone *except* my nada. Somehow, with her, that never happened. Taking her negativity, attacks and accusations personally only subsided somewhat very recently, with the onset of her senile dementia (even though at the time I didn't realize that that was what was ramping up my nada's emotional abusiveness.) I just knew for sure that I had to cease contact with her for my own sake. Having contact with her was starting to result in debilitating physical symptoms for me; my body was telling me to go No Contact, so I did. It took a very, very long time; pretty much my entire life up to this point, for my love for my mother to die out. But remaining so loyally enmeshed with my nada for such a long, long time was probably due to a lot of factors, including my being trauma-bonded to nada early in life (the single most negative, toxic, life-altering thing she did to me was a kind of quasi-rape when I was about 4, if you can wrap your mind around a mother doing that to her own child) plus my dad not stepping in to confront or control her abusiveness or validate that I was in fact being emotional and physically abused and traumatized repeatedly. So, that put the seal on the deal: it was OK for my mother to treat me any way she damn well pleased, say anything to me, scrape me over a cheese grater emotionally, and physically assault me (and my little Sister)... and that was simply OK with dad and the way things were. Mom was always right. Mom ruled. Mom's skewed, warped reality was my reality. I wish I'd had the guts to go into therapy much, much earlier in my adult life; I think that would probably have made a big (and positive) difference in my life-trajectory. -Annie > > > > > > > > I had a visceral reaction to my mother's death. I had not spoken to her for three years prior to that after she hit my oldest daughter over the head with a glass bottle. Her death was sudden and unexpected and I grieved very hard indeed. But, I also felt immense relief although I didn't recognize this until sometime later. It was quite an ordeal for me with all of these competing emotions. > > > > ÃÆ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â > > > > I hope you have someone to lean on through the process. > > > > ÃÆ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â > > > > Robin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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