Stuck in the middle

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for the

last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of the

people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about my

feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear that

there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me as

well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom turned

on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any fall

out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship with my

dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or the

weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my bother

didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown to

smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But sometimes

his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a bomb at my

feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time that

happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees me

as good or evil.

But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

Thanks,

S.

[Guest guest]

Hi S,

This all sounds so sad. It's not your job to fix this problem and you are

incapable of fixing it. Whatever you do will be wrong because of your

parents personalities. If I were in your position I would try to figure out

how to stop caring what your parents think and to create the most distance

between yourself and them. Good luck and welcome to the group.

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 11:14 AM, spaceobject81 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi everyone,

> This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts

> for the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and

> kindness of the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have

> found it. Here's my story. It's a little different from a lot of what I

> have read in that much of our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated

> by irrational, hateful messages. I hope you all might have some insight

> about what my options are and how I might be able to navigate this.

>

> In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad

> about my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't

> understand, didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of

> being selfish and spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really

> being myself around my parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It

> was just the way my family was. I thought we were a little repressed, but

> that was it.

>

> About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

> that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my

> father (eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the

> rules, and unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My

> sister-in-law became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my

> brother was " seduced " by it, and by association became evil. My father

> would respond cruelly when he received pictures of my brother's baby, and

> starting mailing small packages that contained remnants of my brother's

> childhood, as if my dad was purging my brother from his house. When my

> brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but firm way, for his wife and

> newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection, and I am now the

> " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across the country. I

> live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a relationship

> going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his version of

> events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking " our

> family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

> dissolving.

>

> And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For

> the past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has

> been undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with

> my brother and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the

> complicated part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my

> dad is around, and my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too

> afraid of what I might say. A few months ago, when my husband and I were

> visiting, my dad sat me down and told me that my brother had been cut out

> of all of the paperwork that outlines my parents' wishes should they get

> sick or injured. I am now the sole family contact, because my dad doesn't

> trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my brother is a doctor, and

> would be in the best position to communicate with doctors in a hospital).

>

> So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on

> me as well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his

> venom turned on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front

> lines of any fall out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and

> my relationship with my dad now consists of a few emails here and there,

> discussing the dog or the weather. The analogy I've been using is that

> there's this mine field, my bother didn't know it was there, so he just

> went walking through, and got blown to smithereens. I'm just trying to stay

> out of the field entirely. But sometimes his emails will take a turn and I

> have no " safe " answer. He places a bomb at my feet, and my choices are to

> take the hit, or run away. So every time that happens I get bogged down in

> making that choice between whether my dad sees me as good or evil.

> But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or

> just cowardliness?

>

> Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

> situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all

> think?

>

> Thanks,

> S.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

my mom thinks all the in-laws are evil too. well most of them. she has insane

reasons for liking/not liking them. my husband is too slow (right on track) in

his education (he is getting a PHD) one BIL did not get his degree, but is a

wealthy businessman, both are loathsome. Another BIL who is 2 years older than

my DH is still working on a bachelors degree. he is doing " everything he can "

and is " so wonderful " she is never happy with the same thing twice. my family is

HUGE I have lots of examples.

her kids are " perfect " to everyone outside the family, or at least pitiable

like me. she is " so Proud " . within the family we " don't appreciate all we have

been given " are " unforgiving " etc...

in your situation you can't do much. it stinks. I recommend you do what your

standard of a good sister and daughter dictates, and ignore Fada. your brother

sounds like he deserves your support. if you want to give it do. you are damned

if you do and damned if you don't.

I have a SIL who took on the role that is popular in my family of mothering me.

I.e constant directing, condescending, commanding. this is the way most of the

family treats me. My Nada hated it when an outsider joined in. who knows why, I

think she is so blind she could not see that that is what the dynamic already

was. It got to the point that my nada was constantly smearing her to the whole

family including the brother she was married to. he became angry and left the

house many times. he also defended nada sometimes. he was in a tough spot. Nada

claims this as one of her finest hours in which she protected me form evil. Ha

ha. my SIL seriously considered divorce.

this SIL still has guilt over it all and apologizes to me still for her

treatment of me. this was 12 years ago. we have a great relationship now.

cut your fada out of the picture. just because he wants to be, he is not part of

the relationship with you and brother and sil. you can be on your own side. no

matter what you do one day he will see you as " on their side " you need to

establish and live up to your own standard.

my Nada likes to talk about her really crazy perceptions of people as facts.

take it with a grain of salt. I think you should interrupt things if he is

attacking her personally, or help her leave if she has not learned how yet. if

it is attacking her behind her back you can say something like " I don't want to

discuss that with you " and leave in he persists. ultimately she needs to learn

to take care of herself. you can help direct her to do that too.

these things are loving because if he learns from them it will improve life for

him. the loving thing to do is not the easy way out unfortunately. and chances

are if he is like most fadas he won't learn. but you will feel better.

I like to write long posts too.

good luck.

Meikjn

>

> Hi everyone,

> This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for

the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of

the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

>

> In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about

my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

>

> About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

>

> And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

>

> So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me as

well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom turned

on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any fall

out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship with my

dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or the

weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my bother

didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown to

smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But sometimes

his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a bomb at my

feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time that

happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees me

as good or evil.

> But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

>

> Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

>

> Thanks,

> S.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Space, Welcome to the Group.

Your dad has everyone in your family of origin terrorized, afraid of triggering

an explosive rage. Sounds just like my recently deceased mother.

Yes, those with bpd tend to favoritize one child (the Golden Child, or all-good

child) and demonize another (the Scapegoat child, or all-bad child) which tends

to drive the siblings apart from each other, so I'm SO glad for you that you and

your brother are friends with each other.

My suggestion for you is to start educating yourself about borderline pd,

narcissistic pd and the other Cluster B pds. It really does help to know that

your dad isn't just " difficult " , he's actually pretty severely mentally ill. It

can help you to take their negative, attacking, or whiny, dependent behaviors

less personally when you can accept that your parents are quite disturbed,

mentally ill people and their behavior is not due to anything " bad " that you

have said or done. You did not make them that way, and you can't cure them.

Its probably more difficult for a daughter when its her father who is

personality disordered, but the real task for us is to take a step back

emotionally and be the adult in the relationship. Your dad is actually

behaving like a very, very spoiled and indulged 2 year old who tantrums: he

screams and throws things when he doesn't get his own way.

So, part of dealing with this stuff is about realizing that there is nothing

wrong with protecting yourself from/withdrawing emotionally from an abusive

person who emotionally batters you and rages at you, even if that person happens

to be your own father or mother.

Part of it is understanding and accepting that you are NOT responsible for your

father's feelings or thoughts or behaviors: he is. You are NOT responsible for

your mother's feelings or thoughts or behaviors: she is.

Part of it is understanding and accepting that domineering, controlling

personality-disordered people tend to seek out weak, emotionally-dependent

spouses because such a spouse will never confront them or leave them. And

domineering, controlling pd parents tend to beat down their children emotionally

(and even physically) to a quivering pulp who is terrified of them, who will

never challenge them or confront them, and who is too dependent financially or

emotionally to leave them.

And that IS morally wrong. Its both reprehensible and morally wrong to do that

to your own children, in my opinion.

And part of dealing with stuff like this is understanding and accepting that you

can't change your dad or your mom. Your power, the only real power you have in

the relationship, is to decide what you will and will not tolerate. You have

the power to set and maintain boundaries with your parents, or to go No Contact

with them either temporarily or permanently.

That is great that you've been seeing a therapist to help you work through the

damage that such a controlling, domineering parent can do to you. Its OK if you

aren't feeling ready to take steps towards setting even more rules and

boundaries with your bpd dad.

You have to do what feels workable for you.

But in my opinion you are under NO obligation to accept the role of your

parent's care-giver should they require assisted living or nursing care, if you

don't want that job.

Your parents can make arrangements for themselves to set up assisted-living

plans. There are lots of places that have graduated levels of assisted care and

nursing home care right in the same community. Some of the buildings look like

single family homes or duplexes, some are more like apartment buildings, and

they're in residential-looking neighborhoods. Most offer activities and social

events, shopping expeditions, etc., in addition to varying levels of assistance

with daily living issues and medical needs.

My younger Sister chose to take on the responsibility of overseeing our mother's

care needs in a sort of part-time capacity years ago, back when mom was still

able to mostly care for herself, pay her own bills, was mobile, etc., but the

demands and criticism Sister endured nearly plunged her into a deep depression.

It did send Sister into therapy, and Sister was able with the help of the

therapist to make that break and step back emotionally from our mother, so that

the hurtful, toxic, negative things mom said to Sister and about Sister, didn't

hurt nearly as much.

Ironically, once our mother began evidencing dementia symptoms (actively

hallucinating) it became easier on Sister; mother wound up with an involuntary

hospitalization for observation and Sister relocated mom to an assisted living

facility that offered more supervised day-care via their Alzheimer's unit; at

that point there was much less emotional stress on Sister.

So. Bottom line, you do not have to accept abuse from your dad. You get to

decide whether you want to be supervising your parents' care or not. You are

under no obligation to cater to your dad, whose treatment of you sent you into

therapy to deal with the damage to begin with. You are under no obligation to

cater to your dishrag mom who passively allowed your dad to emotionally batter

you.

Catering to and knuckling under to those who use anger as a weapon to demand and

enforce compliance just makes them worse; there is no having a " relationship "

with someone who only wants to control you. That's not a parent-child

relationship, that's a master-slave relationship, or a bully-victim

relationship.

So, here's hoping you find a solution that works for you. Just keep reminding

yourself that there is nothing bad or immoral about walking away from someone

who wants to hurt you, any more that there is anything bad or immoral or

unethical about withdrawing your hand from a hot stove so it won't burn you.

In my opinion.

-Annie

>

> Hi everyone,

> This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for

the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of

the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

>

> In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about

my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

>

> About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

>

> And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

>

> So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me as

well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom turned

on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any fall

out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship with my

dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or the

weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my bother

didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown to

smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But sometimes

his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a bomb at my

feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time that

happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees me

as good or evil.

> But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

>

> Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

>

> Thanks,

> S.

>

[Guest guest]

Annie, you're spot on!!! I also gained from your response as my nada has changed

tactics engaging my enmeshed sister into minimal contact with me! Clever, but I

see what she is trying to do!! The guilt card will not be accepted by me!!

I'm going to keep reading this post whenever I doubt myself

Thanks

Mel x

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> > This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for

the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of

the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

> >

> > In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about

my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

> >

> > About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

> >

> > And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

> >

> > So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me

as well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom

turned on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any

fall out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship

with my dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or

the weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my

bother didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown

to smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But

sometimes his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a

bomb at my feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time

that happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees

me as good or evil.

> > But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

> >

> > Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > S.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, I agree, you are firmly in the middle of it all. Your father reminds me of

mine. It's like he and my mother expected my brother and me to remain in the

same apt with them all of our lives, that we would never marry or have children

or disagree with them.

When I did marry at 25 and leave, it was a huge rejection. My father showed it

in little subtle ways.

I think what's in your favor is that your parents live far away from you. That's

huge. I think you've already done some really significant things: you started

seeing a therapist and you've distanced yourself from your parents. Two great

moves on your part to give you perspective.

The only other thing I can think you can do--which I can understand that, for

now, you are choosing to avoid--is to tell your parents that you do not want to

talk about your brother, that when they do, you will change the subject, because

you do not agree with them.

To be honest, I think it's only a matter of time before your father turns on

you, as well, for...saying the sky is blue, or whatever. I think you'll be

ready for it, esp from your time in therapy.

Take care and welcome to the group!

Fiona

>

> Hi everyone,

> This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for

the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of

the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

>

> In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about

my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

>

> About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

>

> And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

>

> So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me as

well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom turned

on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any fall

out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship with my

dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or the

weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my bother

didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown to

smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But sometimes

his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a bomb at my

feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time that

happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees me

as good or evil.

> But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

>

> Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

>

> Thanks,

> S.

>

[Guest guest]

Wow! I really appreciate the responses to this. Also nice to see that I'm not

the only one who gets so wrapped up when talking about this stuff that it's hard

to keep it brief. You are all so insightful and supportive, thanks.

And Annie, what you said about being responsible for them in their later years

gets at one of my biggest fears. I live dreading the day when something happens

to one or both of my parents. My brother and SIL have made it very clear that

they would be there to help me out regardless of what the paperwork says, which

is a relief, but I just dread having to face an additional tragedy while living

this one everyday. And God forbid something happens to my mom, and my dad is

left alone. (interesting side bar - I feel guilty even using the term fada,

even though it fits). What's also funny about what you said, Annie, is that

growing up, it always felt like my bro was the " Golden " child. They had way

more in common, and I was the emotional one with hobbies no one knew anything

about. Amazing how things change.

I agree that I'm in a stage when I need to work on setting boundaries. Every so

often it will come up and my dad will tell me that I'm the only caring child,

and it takes me out emotionally for at least a day. How do you all deal with

the guilt? How do you fend off the thoughts of " oh, he's sick, I should just

recognize it for what it is and not cause a stir. " Is it common for children or

other family members of a BP to feel debilitating guilt when asking for

something for themselves?

S.

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> > This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts for

the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and kindness of

the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it. Here's my

story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that much of

our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

> >

> > In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad about

my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't understand,

didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being selfish and

spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself around my

parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way my family

was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

> >

> > About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

> >

> > And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For the

past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

> >

> > So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on me

as well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom

turned on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any

fall out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship

with my dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or

the weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my

bother didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown

to smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But

sometimes his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a

bomb at my feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time

that happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees

me as good or evil.

> > But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or just

cowardliness?

> >

> > Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

> >

> > Thanks,

> > S.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The members here who seem to be wracked with the most guilt (inappropriate,

misplaced guilt) are the ones who were parentified as kids: made to feel

responsible for the feelings of their parents even as little kids.

The feelings of responsibility are supposed to go almost totally the other way

around: the parent is supposed to feel responsible for their child's well-being,

feelings of self-worth, education, health, etc.

Children who are made to feel an adult's level of responsibility for their

parent's feelings or well-being have been terribly betrayed. It was very, very

wrong of your parents to make you feel in any way responsible for their feelings

or safety or loneliness or whatever. Really, really wrong. To me, a parent

using their child's natural love and loyalty to assuage their negative feelings

is as wrong and reprehensible as a parent using their child's body to assuage

their own sexual feelings.

So, maybe each time you feel this inappropriate and misplaced guilt, replace it

with a different emotion, like, say, a little righteous indignation. How dare

your parents saddle their own child with those burdens? How abusive and

exploitative was THAT!?

Sometimes it takes a good therapist to help us work past the burden of

inappropriate, misplaced guilt; that's what it took for my younger Sister.

I hope that helps.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi everyone,

> > > This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts

for the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and

kindness of the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it.

Here's my story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that

much of our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

> > >

> > > In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad

about my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't

understand, didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being

selfish and spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself

around my parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way

my family was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

> > >

> > > About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became clear

that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my father

(eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the rules, and

unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My sister-in-law

became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother was " seduced " by

it, and by association became evil. My father would respond cruelly when he

received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing small packages that

contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad was purging my

brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up, in a calm but

firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as complete rejection,

and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother moved half way across

the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been trying to keep a

relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and hearing his

version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for " breaking "

our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my brother all but

dissolving.

> > >

> > > And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For

the past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

> > >

> > > So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on

me as well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom

turned on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any

fall out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship

with my dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or

the weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my

bother didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown

to smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But

sometimes his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a

bomb at my feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time

that happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees

me as good or evil.

> > > But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or

just cowardliness?

> > >

> > > Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the complicated

situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do you all think?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > S.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The guilt of asking for anything, things, time, care, etc. is definitely there.

I'm still finding out how pervasive it really is. Going without or putting their

wants second is what a parent is supposed to do for their child not what a child

is supposed to do for their parent. As I said I'm still trying to get my head

around it its just so screwed up.

LT

> > > >

> > > > Hi everyone,

> > > > This is my first post here. I've been reading through some of the posts

for the last few days, and I have to say I am amazed at the strength and

kindness of the people in this community, and I'm really happy to have found it.

Here's my story. It's a little different from a lot of what I have read in that

much of our problem lies in avoidance that is punctuated by irrational, hateful

messages. I hope you all might have some insight about what my options are and

how I might be able to navigate this.

> > > >

> > > > In a nutshell, I grew up knowing that I couldn't really talk to my dad

about my feelings or any " less than perfect " issues because he just didn't

understand, didn't want to hear it, or made assumptions and accused me of being

selfish and spoiled. So, I just got into the habit of not really being myself

around my parents, and that worked fine for about 28 years. It was just the way

my family was. I thought we were a little repressed, but that was it.

> > > >

> > > > About a year and a half ago, it all hit the fan. It suddenly became

clear that there was a set of unspoken rules that we all just followed with my

father (eggshells). But then my brother married a woman who didn't know the

rules, and unknowingly broke them all. This sent my father off the edge. My

sister-in-law became the embodiment of all that is evil and cruel, my brother

was " seduced " by it, and by association became evil. My father would respond

cruelly when he received pictures of my brother's baby, and starting mailing

small packages that contained remnants of my brother's childhood, as if my dad

was purging my brother from his house. When my brother attempted to stand up,

in a calm but firm way, for his wife and newborn son, my father took it as

complete rejection, and I am now the " only caring child " . He and my mother

moved half way across the country. I live close to my brother. My mom has been

trying to keep a relationship going with my brother, but living with my dad and

hearing his version of events, I think she resents my brother and his wife for

" breaking " our family. This has resulted in my mom's relationship with my

brother all but dissolving.

> > > >

> > > > And I'm in the middle of a family that has completely fallen apart. For

the past year, my entire sense of who I am and what it means to be me has been

undermined. I've been in therapy, and I've reached a good place with my brother

and my sister in law. It's working with my parents that is the complicated

part. Because my mother can't have a real conversation if my dad is around, and

my dad avoids any real conversation because he's too afraid of what I might say.

A few months ago, when my husband and I were visiting, my dad sat me down and

told me that my brother had been cut out of all of the paperwork that outlines

my parents' wishes should they get sick or injured. I am now the sole family

contact, because my dad doesn't trust my brother. (this defies all reason as my

brother is a doctor, and would be in the best position to communicate with

doctors in a hospital).

> > > >

> > > > So far, I have avoided doing anything that might cause my dad to turn on

me as well, for my sake (because I'm not sure I could handle having his venom

turned on me) and for my mother's sake, who would be on the front lines of any

fall out. I've distanced myself from both of my parents, and my relationship

with my dad now consists of a few emails here and there, discussing the dog or

the weather. The analogy I've been using is that there's this mine field, my

bother didn't know it was there, so he just went walking through, and got blown

to smithereens. I'm just trying to stay out of the field entirely. But

sometimes his emails will take a turn and I have no " safe " answer. He places a

bomb at my feet, and my choices are to take the hit, or run away. So every time

that happens I get bogged down in making that choice between whether my dad sees

me as good or evil.

> > > > But am I helping anything by not speaking up? It it self protection or

just cowardliness?

> > > >

> > > > Sorry this is such a novel, but I did my best to boil down the

complicated situation. If you made it this far, thanks for reading... What do

you all think?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > S.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, its really hard to wrap our minds around the concept that instead of being

parented, aka nurtured, we were exploited. Its such a betrayal: the child

actually *used* or taken from, instead of being protected, nurtured / given to.

Its just so wrong on so many levels.

-Annie

>

> The guilt of asking for anything, things, time, care, etc. is definitely

there. I'm still finding out how pervasive it really is. Going without or

putting their wants second is what a parent is supposed to do for their child

not what a child is supposed to do for their parent. As I said I'm still trying

to get my head around it its just so screwed up.

>

> LT

[Guest guest]

It's also pretty confusing to be realizing this now, at this stage of my life.

The past year has resulted in a complete redefinition of what my family is and

was when I was growing up. I see now that while we always were provided for in

terms of material needs (for which I am grateful), we never really had any

emotional support, because dad just wasn't capable of providing it. It became

so natural to work around my father's emotions, that I didn't even realize that

I had fallen into the habit of ignoring my own for fear that if I showed how I

was feeling, people would tell me I was wrong or bad.

> >

> > The guilt of asking for anything, things, time, care, etc. is definitely

there. I'm still finding out how pervasive it really is. Going without or

putting their wants second is what a parent is supposed to do for their child

not what a child is supposed to do for their parent. As I said I'm still trying

to get my head around it its just so screwed up.

> >

> > LT

>

[Guest guest]

I think that like most of us with the misfortune to find ourselves on this

board,,,,you may come and go around 'the middle' for many years...

however if you think that ultimately you 'speaking up' about the slightest

thing, may result in an exploding mine...then only you will know, when that time

comes, whether you feel strong enough and safe enough to 'speak up'...ie, if the

risk of an explosion is worth you finding and airing your own true voice...

when you are ready you will find yourself beginning to speak out your previously

silenced thoughts.

If you do not feel ready then do not force anything. You must, as you begin to

discover that you can actually have your own voice, be nurturing and protective

of your voice.

Sometimes we can speak out too soon, and the Nadas and Fadas cruelty and

well-practised savagery cuts us back prematurely.

So chill! Nuture yourself! You have all the time in the world!

xxx

[Guest guest]

Things like this are really helpful to hear. Thanks for sharing your stories,

insight, and experience.

> >

> >

> > I think that like most of us with the misfortune to find ourselves on this

board,,,,you may come and go around 'the middle' for many years...

> >

> > however if you think that ultimately you 'speaking up' about the slightest

thing, may result in an exploding mine...then only you will know, when that time

comes, whether you feel strong enough and safe enough to 'speak up'...ie, if the

risk of an explosion is worth you finding and airing your own true voice...

> >

> > when you are ready you will find yourself beginning to speak out your

previously silenced thoughts.

> > If you do not feel ready then do not force anything. You must, as you begin

to discover that you can actually have your own voice, be nurturing and

protective of your voice.

> > Sometimes we can speak out too soon, and the Nadas and Fadas cruelty and

well-practised savagery cuts us back prematurely.

> >

> > So chill! Nuture yourself! You have all the time in the world!

> > xxx

> >

>