Re: New here, son of a BPDad

July 15, 2011

I don't know what the definition of love is in that

context. They definitely have a lot of feelings for their

children in most cases, but those feelings are not love as far

as I can tell. Sometimes they seem closer to hate than love.

Sometimes they're closer to indifference to their children's

needs. I don't believe my nada is capable of loving anyone by

any normal definition of love. Real love requires an ability to

put someone else before yourself at least some of the time and

she can't do that. Everything is always about her. She'll do

things for other people, but it seems to be either because she

wants something in return or because she wants to hold up her

" virtue " to other people to impress them. My mother claims to

love us, but it seems to me that love for her means that she can

make demands and have them met. Maybe the definition in that

context is " wants to control " or " wants to be worshipped by " .

Guilt is one of the primary tools in a nada or fada's toolbox.

They're very good at trying to, and often succeeding, in making

us feel guilty for wanting to live are own lives and not be

their willing slaves and punching bags.

At 07:34 PM 07/14/2011 lumanzico wrote:

>Hello all, I just joined the group. I'm a recovering child of a

>BPD father. Now that I have kids of my own, (I'm a dad of two),

>I finally realize how messed up you'd have to be to do what my

>dad did and is still doing to me and my sister. I wish I

>could've seen this earlier in my life, so that I wouldn't have

>spent so much time feeling guilty and responsible for making

>things better. The guilt really did a number on my self esteem,

>and it didn't help at all that my mother kept encouraging us to

>keep " reaching out " to my father, to try to " heal " our

>relationship. What a load of BS!

>I have a question for anyone who is willing to comment:

>I keep reading in literature about BPD parents as well as in a

>post here, that the actually love their kids very much. Can

>someone please define the word " love " for me as it can be

>applied in this context? Because if I think of love as I know

>it, and then subtract empathy... caring for one's children's

>well being...interest in their suffering...desire to

>nurture...instinct to protect...

>what am I left with? How can one assert that this is love

>without a further explanation. (amazingly...in most things that

>I've read, the word " love " is just used in this nonchalant

>manner; as if it were an element that could not be contradicted

>by one's actions. I have no reason to affirm that my father

>loves or has loved me.

--

Katrina

July 15, 2011

I think for them love really equals need. They feel this need for someone, a

need to be filled up by that person, supported by that person, to be connected

to that person for their stability and to them that is Love.

> >Hello all, I just joined the group. I'm a recovering child of a

> >BPD father. Now that I have kids of my own, (I'm a dad of two),

> >I finally realize how messed up you'd have to be to do what my

> >dad did and is still doing to me and my sister. I wish I

> >could've seen this earlier in my life, so that I wouldn't have

> >spent so much time feeling guilty and responsible for making

> >things better. The guilt really did a number on my self esteem,

> >and it didn't help at all that my mother kept encouraging us to

> >keep " reaching out " to my father, to try to " heal " our

> >relationship. What a load of BS!

> >I have a question for anyone who is willing to comment:

> >I keep reading in literature about BPD parents as well as in a

> >post here, that the actually love their kids very much. Can

> >someone please define the word " love " for me as it can be

> >applied in this context? Because if I think of love as I know

> >it, and then subtract empathy... caring for one's children's

> >well being...interest in their suffering...desire to

> >nurture...instinct to protect...

> >what am I left with? How can one assert that this is love

> >without a further explanation. (amazingly...in most things that

> >I've read, the word " love " is just used in this nonchalant

> >manner; as if it were an element that could not be contradicted

> >by one's actions. I have no reason to affirm that my father

> >loves or has loved me.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

July 15, 2011

Hi

Whether or not they 'love' is a question I struggle with too. Nada always says

she loves me. She once even sort-of kind-of tried to apologize for 'your being

so upset for so long'. She somehow managed not to take any blame or

responsibility of course.

But the thing is, I never believe her. I wonder how I can be so cold an

unfeeling (her messages to me are generally along the lines that I am a cold

fish). But I believe my father loves me, and I believe my spouse, my grandmother

and my step-mother love me. So when I don't believe her when she says " I love

you " , I think it must be because she doesn't. She can't.

When she says it, she must believe herself, I guess. She sounds sincere. Which

is the hard part - I can't say she's lying, and a person should be able to know

if they feel something and we shouldn't say they don't feel something they say

they do feel - that's the whole validation of feelings thing that it so

important. So how can I assume that she doesn't feel what she says she feels?

You see - this question has me in knots.

I think she means it in as far as she's capable. But because she isn't capable

of empathy, the emotion is a shadow of what most of us mean. Sort of like a cake

without sugar. Might look like a good cake, but it sure doesn't taste good.

Terri

>

> Hello all, I just joined the group. I'm a recovering child of a BPD father.

Now that I have kids of my own, (I'm a dad of two), I finally realize how messed

up you'd have to be to do what my dad did and is still doing to me and my

sister. I wish I could've seen this earlier in my life, so that I wouldn't have

spent so much time feeling guilty and responsible for making things better. The

guilt really did a number on my self esteem, and it didn't help at all that my

mother kept encouraging us to keep " reaching out " to my father, to try to " heal "

our relationship. What a load of BS!

> I have a question for anyone who is willing to comment:

> I keep reading in literature about BPD parents as well as in a post here, that

the actually love their kids very much. Can someone please define the word

" love " for me as it can be applied in this context? Because if I think of love

as I know it, and then subtract empathy... caring for one's children's well

being...interest in their suffering...desire to nurture...instinct to protect...

> what am I left with? How can one assert that this is love without a further

explanation. (amazingly...in most things that I've read, the word " love " is just

used in this nonchalant manner; as if it were an element that could not be

contradicted by one's actions. I have no reason to affirm that my father loves

or has loved me.

>

July 15, 2011

I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. How can

someone possibly love someone else if they aren't capable of the

emotions involved in loving? I think they believe that what they

feel is love because they don't understand the difference

between love and what they feel. They see some of the surface of

what love is all about and they want that, but they want it

without having to give anything in return because they only

understand the taking part of the equation. They think we owe

them love and they demand what they think being loved entitles

them to.

At 08:43 PM 07/15/2011 tretretre1971 wrote:

>Hi

>

>Whether or not they 'love' is a question I struggle with too.

>Nada always says she loves me. She once even sort-of kind-of

>tried to apologize for 'your being so upset for so long'. She

>somehow managed not to take any blame or responsibility of

>course.

>

> But the thing is, I never believe her. I wonder how I can be

> so cold an unfeeling (her messages to me are generally along

> the lines that I am a cold fish). But I believe my father

> loves me, and I believe my spouse, my grandmother and my

> step-mother love me. So when I don't believe her when she says

> " I love you " , I think it must be because she doesn't. She

> can't.

>

>When she says it, she must believe herself, I guess. She sounds

>sincere. Which is the hard part - I can't say she's lying, and

>a person should be able to know if they feel something and we

>shouldn't say they don't feel something they say they do feel -

>that's the whole validation of feelings thing that it so

>important. So how can I assume that she doesn't feel what she

>says she feels? You see - this question has me in knots.

>

>I think she means it in as far as she's capable. But because

>she isn't capable of empathy, the emotion is a shadow of what

>most of us mean. Sort of like a cake without sugar. Might look

>like a good cake, but it sure doesn't taste good.

>

>Terri

--

Katrina

July 16, 2011

No, nada did not love me. She told me so to my face - - - as if I didn't

already know.

> **

>

> I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. How can

> someone possibly love someone else if they aren't capable of the

> emotions involved in loving? I think they believe that what they

> feel is love because they don't understand the difference

> between love and what they feel. They see some of the surface of

> what love is all about and they want that, but they want it

> without having to give anything in return because they only

> understand the taking part of the equation. They think we owe

> them love and they demand what they think being loved entitles

> them to.

>

> At 08:43 PM 07/15/2011 tretretre1971 wrote:

> >Hi

> >

> >Whether or not they 'love' is a question I struggle with too.

> >Nada always says she loves me. She once even sort-of kind-of

> >tried to apologize for 'your being so upset for so long'. She

> >somehow managed not to take any blame or responsibility of

> >course.

> >

> > But the thing is, I never believe her. I wonder how I can be

> > so cold an unfeeling (her messages to me are generally along

> > the lines that I am a cold fish). But I believe my father

> > loves me, and I believe my spouse, my grandmother and my

> > step-mother love me. So when I don't believe her when she says

> > " I love you " , I think it must be because she doesn't. She

> > can't.

> >

> >When she says it, she must believe herself, I guess. She sounds

> >sincere. Which is the hard part - I can't say she's lying, and

> >a person should be able to know if they feel something and we

> >shouldn't say they don't feel something they say they do feel -

> >that's the whole validation of feelings thing that it so

> >important. So how can I assume that she doesn't feel what she

> >says she feels? You see - this question has me in knots.

> >

> >I think she means it in as far as she's capable. But because

> >she isn't capable of empathy, the emotion is a shadow of what

> >most of us mean. Sort of like a cake without sugar. Might look

> >like a good cake, but it sure doesn't taste good.

> >

> >Terri

>

> --

> Katrina

>

July 16, 2011

I hear you and agree--their definition of what it is to love someone, especially

their own child, misses the mark! It wasn't until I had my own children that I

realized how shallow my nada's " love " really is.

Since their ability to know love is impaired, it makes me wonder what other

emotions they experience from a skewed perspective.

I read those same passages with a grain of salt. BPD has a wide range of

functionality. I can only assume the higher the functioning, perhaps the more

empathy they can experience.

My mother is high functioning, and I am sure she does love. But that love goes

out the window whenever her fear gets activated. So times when she would be most

needed, she would become not only useless, but add new dimensions of difficulty

to whatever we were facing.