Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Steve: I am sure I will get hammered for this response. But, this illustrates a key difference in EMS and nursing education. Nursing education is broader and more comprehensive. But the graduate nurse is taught to follow physician orders and, if there is an issue, call the doctor. A physician's order should always be there. In EMS, we train paramedics to be independent providers. I am not saying that a paramedic would administer the other's child to the ill patient-but to prevent death he or she would do anything in their power to intervene. Most nurses probably would as well. But, in a school nurse situation, even giving aspirin for a headache is a major deal. Nobody I guess would be at fault, but what a shame. BEB From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:25 AM To: Texas EMS List Subject: Epi Pen use There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it was not prescribed? =Steve= -- Steve LP RIT AlertCPR Emergency Training Center 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 ville, TX 75077 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Just an FYI. There was a case recently whereas one student gave his very close friend his inhaler to use in a " distress " situation in the school setting. The one that allowed the other to use his inhaler was filed on criminally. Note: The one that needed th einhaler " had " a prescription for a inhaler, just didnt have it with them. That may answer some questions to a few Epi Pen use There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it was not prescribed? =Steve= -- Steve LP RIT AlertCPR Emergency Training Center 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 ville, TX 75077 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Overzealous prosecutions like this have got to be the exception I would help if not we're all screwed. Louis N. Molino, Sr. FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Epi Pen use There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it was not prescribed? =Steve= -- Steve LP RIT AlertCPR Emergency Training Center 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 ville, TX 75077 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Let me ask a devils-advocate question: Medically, why NOT use someone else's Epipen in a suspected anaphylactic reaction? Are there contraindications to emergency epinephrine use that would make this a dangerous move? MedicaLawman@... wrote: > Just an FYI. > > > > There was a case recently whereas one student gave his very close friend his inhaler to use in a " distress " situation in the school setting. The one that allowed the other to use his inhaler was filed on criminally. > > > > Note: The one that needed th einhaler " had " a prescription for a inhaler, just didnt have it with them. > > That may answer some questions to a few > > > Epi Pen use > > > > > > > > There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child > had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an > epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give > one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. > > The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, > morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications > to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. > > So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is > the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a > layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in > the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it > was not prescribed? > > =Steve= > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM > > -- Steve LP RIT AlertCPR Emergency Training Center 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 ville, TX 75077 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 And that shows just how idiotic this whole " no tolerance " thing has become. It's time for the lawyers to begin suing these school systems SERIOUSLY for damages every time they pull one of these things. Is there no such thing as common sense anymore? Yes, I know... the lawyers killed it. Actually, it's the lawyers who are about the only ones that fight to maintain it. GG > > > Just an FYI. > > There was a case recently whereas one student gave his very close friend his > inhaler to use in a " distress " situation in the school setting. The one that > allowed the other to use his inhaler was filed on criminally. > > Note: The one that needed th einhaler " had " a prescription for a inhaler, > just didnt have it with them. > > That may answer some questions to a few > > Epi Pen use > > There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child > had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an > epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give > one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. > > The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, > morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications > to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. > > So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is > the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a > layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in > the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it > was not prescribed? > > =Steve= > > -- > Steve LP RIT > AlertCPR Emergency Training Center > 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 > ville, TX 75077 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Interesting discussion, but the good doctor nailed it. Without standing orders or direct orders from an online physician, the use of medication would be inappropriate. If you phoned a physician and received orders, I don't see that there would be a problem making use of any available medication. Roy > > Just an FYI. > > > > > > > > There was a case recently whereas one student gave his very close friend his inhaler to use in a " distress " situation in the school setting. The one that allowed the other to use his inhaler was filed on criminally. > > > > > > > > Note: The one that needed th einhaler " had " a prescription for a inhaler, just didnt have it with them. > > > > That may answer some questions to a few > > > > > > Epi Pen use > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a debate raging on another list, the gist of it is (1) a child > > had an allergic reaction to milk in some punch (2) she did NOT have an > > epipen, (3) another child DID have an epi-pen (4) the nurse did not give > > one child the medication prescribed for another child, (5) the child died. > > > > The debate has gone through all the predictable areas of legality, > > morality, ethics, etc. But the question now concerns contraindications > > to use of an epi-pen by someone not prescribed for it. > > > > So, focusing just on the pharmacology and physiological aspects, what is > > the reasonably expected downside of administering an epi-pen (by a > > layperson or school nurse with no access to anything except what is in > > the typical school nurses office and an epi-pen) to someone for whom it > > was not prescribed? > > > > =Steve= > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > > > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1643 - Release Date: 8/30/2008 5:18 PM > > > > > > -- > Steve LP RIT > AlertCPR Emergency Training Center > 1400 Moccassin Trl, Suite 12 > ville, TX 75077 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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