What does she want us to be?

[Guest guest]

Someone mentioned on another post that Nada wanted her to be the

therapist sometimes. That got me thinking of how often our bp wants

us to be something we are not. Of course, she pushes us with guilt for

not being that which we are not, and we struggle with that guilt, often

for years.

But what if we could fulfill her pipe dreams?

Nada may start to tell us " her version " of " her story " , as if we there

a therapist. We resist this invasion, for it is far more personal and

demanding than we are willing to accept. But if we begin to listen, and

react as a therapist, and try to help her find a solution for her

issues, what would happen? Just as with a real therapist, Nada would

only accept from us a total acceptance of her view and victimology.

She will reject any suggestion that any of her problems are the result

of her own behaviors. So, as soon as we tried to get her to accept that

concept, we would immediately become a villain to her victim. We

cannot win, either way.

Nada sometimes wants us to be her buddy. Not just any buddy, mind you,

but her idealized version of what her best buddy ought to be. After

all, that is what she needs, and we ought to love her because she is our

mom, and if we really love her we would understand what she needs and

supply it. Aside from the fact that we are her children and not her

best buddy, we would fail at that relationship as well. Even real best

buds are rejected the moment they fail to live up to her idealized

version.

There is an underlying self centric relationship here which we don t

easily see, because we are so close to the situation. Our mother,

rather than be what she ought to be to us, and love and cheer us, looks

to us as nothing but an extension of her fantasy world in which her

needs are fulfilled. Since no one can truly fill her bottomless pit of

need, we will lose at any of these roles into which she pushes us.

We can not win if we play. We are her children. We are adult children,

who have little experience in proper roles of adult children and their

parents. But we are the ONLY adult in the equation. She will not be an

adult.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Excellent analysis, Doug. I too think its a no-win scenario to attempt to cater

to bpd mom's or bpd dad's extreme, unrealistic expectations; nobody can ever

fill that unfillable black hole of need or expectation. Attempts are doomed to

failure.

The issue is that the bpd's expectations are unrealistic to the point of

absurdity, and that is highly abusive particularly when directed at a small

child. In fact " unrealistic expectations that exceed the child's physical,

emotional, or intellectual development level " are listed as a form of

psychological abuse at sites dedicated to preventing child abuse.

My own personal theory aligns with your post: my thinking is that the underlying

core trait connecting the Cluster B disorders (and psychopathy) is extreme,

total self-absorption. Other people barely exist for the person with a Cluster

B disorder or psychopathy; or perhaps, they are at most merely props, or

appendages, or mirrors, or appliances/furniture to be used for what they can

provide: attention, admiration, status, money, power, mirroring, etc.

But an individual, separate human being with equal needs for attention and

caring, who may have different opinions or tastes than the person with bpd? The

bpd person can't relate to that concept; anything different from their own self

is perceived as " bad " or trivial or having no value, and perhaps even

threatening.

Absolute narcissism underlies borderline pd; at least it seems so to me because

of the total focus that those with bpd seem to have on on their own needs and

feelings to the exclusion of all else. Me! ME!! MEEEE!!!!!

So, I agree with you.

-Annie

>

>

> Someone mentioned on another post that Nada wanted her to be the

> therapist sometimes. That got me thinking of how often our bp wants

> us to be something we are not. Of course, she pushes us with guilt for

> not being that which we are not, and we struggle with that guilt, often

> for years.

>

> But what if we could fulfill her pipe dreams?

>

> Nada may start to tell us " her version " of " her story " , as if we there

> a therapist. We resist this invasion, for it is far more personal and

> demanding than we are willing to accept. But if we begin to listen, and

> react as a therapist, and try to help her find a solution for her

> issues, what would happen? Just as with a real therapist, Nada would

> only accept from us a total acceptance of her view and victimology.

> She will reject any suggestion that any of her problems are the result

> of her own behaviors. So, as soon as we tried to get her to accept that

> concept, we would immediately become a villain to her victim. We

> cannot win, either way.

>

> Nada sometimes wants us to be her buddy. Not just any buddy, mind you,

> but her idealized version of what her best buddy ought to be. After

> all, that is what she needs, and we ought to love her because she is our

> mom, and if we really love her we would understand what she needs and

> supply it. Aside from the fact that we are her children and not her

> best buddy, we would fail at that relationship as well. Even real best

> buds are rejected the moment they fail to live up to her idealized

> version.

>

> There is an underlying self centric relationship here which we don t

> easily see, because we are so close to the situation. Our mother,

> rather than be what she ought to be to us, and love and cheer us, looks

> to us as nothing but an extension of her fantasy world in which her

> needs are fulfilled. Since no one can truly fill her bottomless pit of

> need, we will lose at any of these roles into which she pushes us.

>

> We can not win if we play. We are her children. We are adult children,

> who have little experience in proper roles of adult children and their

> parents. But we are the ONLY adult in the equation. She will not be an

> adult.

>

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

The sad dichotomy of the bp , or the np for that matter, is that what is

worn outwardly as a pathological narcissism covers an inner core of

worthlessness. Although they live and function as if they were the

center of thier own universe, somewhere very deep a voice tells them

they are nothing. One of the biggest fears is living without the false

facade and the " people props " to build thier fantasy world.

And sadly, doing so, far from leaving them with nothing, would give them

more than they will ever know in their lives.

This is a truly sad and deep disease. I wish I could fix them. Since I

can t, I ll do all I can to help thier children overcome it.

Hence my posts, and eventually, my book.

Doug

[Guest guest]

Randi has written an article describing two different sub-types of narcissism,

which I found fascinating and plausible.

The first sub-type is " invulnerable " narcissism. This happens when the child is

told from birth that he or she is a superior human being who is much better than

ordinary people. The child hears repeatedly that he or she is WAY smarter,

MUCH better-looking, WAY more talented than anyone else, etc., and therefor

deserves very special, superior treatment. So, when the invulnerable

narcissist demands to be admired and catered to, they are acting on their own

genuine, positive, very high self-regard: its what they have been taught to

expect as " normal " treatment by the parents.

In childhood I had one of these " Little Emperor Syndrome " individuals as my best

friend; it was like an amazing trip to Wonderland to visit her at her house.

Her parents treated her like a goddess; she could order them about in

disrespectful tones and they'd just say " Now, now, sweetie... " but comply with

her orders anyway! (If I had dared to try that at my house I would have

literally gotten the crap beaten out of me.) So I got the delightful

beneficial fallout of being catered to too, when I was in my friend's good

graces. Of course, I was expected to cater to her as well. But being a servile

minion gets rather boring after a while, and as we reached our college years we

drifted apart.

Its actually really pretty cruel to inflict this sense of superiority on one's

child, since in most cases the child will smack up hard against reality when the

parents are gone and nobody much cares to treat the now-adult child like a

demigod.

The second sub-type Randi describes is " vulnerable " narcissism. This is the

condition you described, Doug: the narcissistic behaviors are a mask used to

disguise and compensate for the true core feelings of worthlessness and shame,

due to being mistreated or ignored or rejected by the parents in childhood.

I can see how vulnerable narcissistic pd and borderline pd overlap a lot.

-Annie

>

>

> The sad dichotomy of the bp , or the np for that matter, is that what is

> worn outwardly as a pathological narcissism covers an inner core of

> worthlessness. Although they live and function as if they were the

> center of thier own universe, somewhere very deep a voice tells them

> they are nothing. One of the biggest fears is living without the false

> facade and the " people props " to build thier fantasy world.

>

> And sadly, doing so, far from leaving them with nothing, would give them

> more than they will ever know in their lives.

>

> This is a truly sad and deep disease. I wish I could fix them. Since I

> can t, I ll do all I can to help thier children overcome it.

>

> Hence my posts, and eventually, my book.

>

> Doug

>