Guest guest Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Bob, You're SCREWED! There is no way to corral volunteers without extensive use of bullwhips, cattle prods and tasers. Consider joining a religious order and getting out of EMS. You'll be happier in the long run. Please deposit another $50 for the next bit of advice. Gene G. > > Bob, > > What kind of perks/gifts or anything at all do the volunteers get? > > Have you ever thought about a point system and rewarded on a point system. > > Hard subject to approach but whether paid or volunteer all professional > personnel have to be held to a standard of conduct/policies/ Hard subjec > > Good Luck, > > Binkley > Cy-Fair VFD/EMS > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > Volunteer Standards > > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > Bob in McGregor, LP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? Bob in McGregor, LP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Bob, What kind of perks/gifts or anything at all do the volunteers get? Have you ever thought about a point system and rewarded on a point system. Hard subject to approach but whether paid or volunteer all professional personnel have to be held to a standard of conduct/policies/procedures. Good Luck, Binkley Cy-Fair VFD/EMS Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Volunteer Standards How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? Bob in McGregor, LP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 When you ask people do give away their services for free it is hard to expect them to treat it as a profession. Yes we expect paid people to meet the standards you mention, but if they agreed to work for free you just have expect that people will not take those items serious. It's not like they lose anything if you remove them from the service. May I ask why you still have a volunteer service in this day and age? How many calls do you get per year? Really the only solution to improve is to have paid service rather than volunteer. Just my lowly worthless thoughts. Renny Spencer Injured Reserve > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > Bob in McGregor, LP > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I expect every situation is different. In general, expectations rise with the number of volunteers available. Also in general, the number of volunteers increases with the standards and professionalism. Volunteers are not working for a salary, they are working for the personal gain that comes with the service to the community and the brotherhood and sisterhood that comes with the association among an exceptional group of people. The volunteers are there because they want to be and that desire means you have some control over their behavior. Don't expect volunteers to not have family emergencies, etc. But do expect them to give as much notice as possible and to attempt to find a substitute. Do expect a professional appearance, but this may have to begin with just being clean and neat. Do make sure you set a good example and remind the volunteers that they represent your organization and the city. Rewards and recognition are also good motivators. When expectations are set high and belonging to the service is very desirable, there is little difference between volunteer and career departments. Many, very large fire departments are entirely volunteer and have a long waiting list for openings. When you cannot afford to have an all career department, you are thankful for having volunteers that want to serve in addition to their " daytime job " . Dick Celina Fire Department FF/EMT-B At 08:19 AM 10/9/2008, you wrote: >When you ask people do give away their services for free it is hard to >expect them to treat it as a profession. Yes we expect paid people to >meet the standards you mention, but if they agreed to work for free you >just have expect that people will not take those items serious. It's >not like they lose anything if you remove them from the service. > >May I ask why you still have a volunteer service in this day and age? >How many calls do you get per year? Really the only solution to improve >is to have paid service rather than volunteer. > >Just my lowly worthless thoughts. > >Renny Spencer >Injured Reserve > > > > > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for >a > > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > > > Bob in McGregor, LP > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Renny (and everyone else): I have mixed feelings about volunteer EMS.? I got my start once I got my EMT-B as a volunteer first responder with a local combination paid/volunteer fire department.? I've since volunteered as an EMT (and then LP) for a small rural primarily volunteer service and now work part-time as a paramedic for a medium sized 911 service. (This is, of course, in addition to my full-time career practicing law.)? So, I've got?some experience in a variety of paid/volunteer settings. First, it pains me that there are places that claim they can't afford paid EMS.? (Funny how the county commissioners always find money for a new bulldozer and the school board always finds money for the football team.)? But I definitely see your point (and agree in part) that giving away EMS (at least as an ALS transport service) is holding EMS back.? I still do think?that there may be?a place and time for volunteer EMS providers, particularly in the first response setting. However, there are still some very good organizations that are primarily volunteer-driven.? In short, there's no one solution for the best way to provide or fund EMS.?? A combination paid/volunteer department may work great for some suburbs yet it might not work at all for a rural or frontier area.? Basically, the old saying of " your mileage may vary " applies to EMS. Two things?frustrate and anger me about some (NOT ALL) volunteer EMS systems. 1) The very mistaken belief that there's somehow a lower standard of care for a volunteer provider or service.? Unfortunately, some of us have heard, " We're a volunteer service and doing the best we can. " ? I can assure you that a jury will not buy that argument.? The last time I checked, my patch never said volunteer EMT.? It was the same color, style, and design as anyone else's. 2) The way some volunteer services take their members for granted. Even if a service can't provide everything a volunteer needs for their job, it doesn't cost a dime to say " thank you " occasionally. Being flexible with your members usually doesn't cost much either. I'm amazed how many volunteer operations that I see put hurdles in the way of their volunteers. In my opinion, if you're going to still run a volunteer service, I'd recommend following my wise fire chief's mantra of " It shouldn't cost anyone a dime to volunteer. " ? That means uniforms, appropriate PPE, continuing education, etc. Sorry that I'm a bit long-winded. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP -Attorney/Licensed Paramedic -Austin, Texas Re: Volunteer Standards When you ask people do give away their services for free it is hard to expect them to treat it as a profession. Yes we expect paid people to meet the standards you mention, but if they agreed to work for free you just have expect that people will not take those items serious. It's not like they lose anything if you remove them from the service. May I ask why you still have a volunteer service in this day and age? How many calls do you get per year? Really the only solution to improve is to have paid service rather than volunteer. Just my lowly worthless thoughts. Renny Spencer Injured Reserve > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > Bob in McGregor, LP > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I would take offense. Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I am that unique. If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check won't change things.  My 2 cents. Kacey  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Having managed volunteers in EMS ans well as other settings, I can say without doubt that managing and motivating volunteers is much more difficult. They are giving their efforts, and they expect to decide what efforts to give and how to do it. Sort of " well, I'm giving this time for free, so I'll do it how I want " . Whereas with paid staff, they may not like what they're told to do but they have to do it, with volunteers they really don't have to do anything they don't want to. Hard to incent them as a group. Kacey, you are right. It's more like some will, some won't, but no one can really make them do things they don't want to, or don't see value in. Steve KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Most of land, New Jersey and parts of Pennsylvania and Virginia are covered by volunteers and they do a great job. Even in the Baltimore/Washington corridor, most of the fire departments and EMS are totally volunteer-and we are talking about some large towns like College Park. BEB From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:31 AM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Re: Volunteer Standards Having managed volunteers in EMS ans well as other settings, I can say without doubt that managing and motivating volunteers is much more difficult. They are giving their efforts, and they expect to decide what efforts to give and how to do it. Sort of " well, I'm giving this time for free, so I'll do it how I want " . Whereas with paid staff, they may not like what they're told to do but they have to do it, with volunteers they really don't have to do anything they don't want to. Hard to incent them as a group. Kacey, you are right. It's more like some will, some won't, but no one can really make them do things they don't want to, or don't see value in. Steve KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I think that Virginia Beach may be one of the largest volunteer departments around. -Wes Re: Re: Volunteer Standards Having managed volunteers in EMS ans well as other settings, I can say without doubt that managing and motivating volunteers is much more difficult. They are giving their efforts, and they expect to decide what efforts to give and how to do it. Sort of " well, I'm giving this time for free, so I'll do it how I want " . Whereas with paid staff, they may not like what they're told to do but they have to do it, with volunteers they really don't have to do anything they don't want to. Hard to incent them as a group. Kacey, you are right. It's more like some will, some won't, but no one can really make them do things they don't want to, or don't see value in. Steve KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I was going to stay out of this as I saw it would go the path it has but frankly some motivation come from within both the person and the organization. If the person is dedicated and committed and he or she is surrounded by the same it isn't as hard as some make it out to be. Nuff said from across the world. LNM from Baku, Azerbaijan Louis N. Molino, Sr. FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI LNMolino@... Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Re: Re: Volunteer Standards Having managed volunteers in EMS ans well as other settings, I can say without doubt that managing and motivating volunteers is much more difficult. They are giving their efforts, and they expect to decide what efforts to give and how to do it. Sort of " well, I'm giving this time for free, so I'll do it how I want " . Whereas with paid staff, they may not like what they're told to do but they have to do it, with volunteers they really don't have to do anything they don't want to. Hard to incent them as a group. Kacey, you are right. It's more like some will, some won't, but no one can really make them do things they don't want to, or don't see value in. Steve KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 'What are you gonna do? Fire me?' is a common response with a 'all volunteer system'. I'm very well acquainted with this attitude. I'm V-Chair of and volunteer in one that has been in operation since 1983. It has always been and continues to be the biggest problem. If you're lucky, you have 1 to 3 people who always answer the call, no matter what it is, the weather conditions, or the time of day or night. Then you have a select few who always seem to be available for the shows. And then you have those who make sure everyone knows that they are 'Part of the service' and that's the only time you hear from them. It's hard to get people to drop what they are doing, whatever it is, immediately, and answer a 911 call. It takes a trully totally dedicated individual to do that for a ''What took you so long'' or a ''Thank You " . Those are hard to come by. We're lucky, we have (3) and one of those is 12 miles away. I fugure that's good for a small community of about 1200 people. Â Any ideas are always welcome. I'm new to this site so maybe I'll check the archives. -- Subject: Re: Volunteer Standards To: texasems-l Date: Thursday, October 9, 2008, 12:57 AM Bob, You're SCREWED! There is no way to corral volunteers without extensive use of bullwhips, cattle prods and tasers. Consider joining a religious order and getting out of EMS. You'll be happier in the long run. Please deposit another $50 for the next bit of advice. Gene G. In a message dated 10/8/08 10:02:31 PM, shawn.binkley@ gmail.com writes: > > Bob, > > What kind of perks/gifts or anything at all do the volunteers get? > > Have you ever thought about a point system and rewarded on a point system. > > Hard subject to approach but whether paid or volunteer all professional > personnel have to be held to a standard of conduct/policies/ Hard subjec > > Good Luck, > > Binkley > Cy-Fair VFD/EMS > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > Volunteer Standards > > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > Bob in McGregor, LP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Wes, I started as a volly in Fort for the Jeff County Mountain Medics. They as a group had some very good quality people and I learned much from them. But they now have trouble recruiting people as well. People do not have time to give anymore. People always throw out the comment that vollunteers are more dedicated, etc because they do what they do to give back to their communitys. I disagree. I am paid full time and am very dedicated to helping people, but I am also very dedicated to my profession. Please do not take offense but volunteers hurt my profession. Why? Because you make it harder for me to support my family doing what I love. At budget time with my old full time job, volunteer services were always brought up, because they did for free what we were getting paid to do. It made it harder to get pay raises. I finally had to quit and now travel at least 150 miles one way to work and further if scheduled at the East end of the county. Any service can go paid if communitys got prioritys right. As Wes mentioned they always support the team, they always get the equipment, and I would also include they always fund decorations and celebrations. Money could be shifted to pay for EMS. Now to really see EMS improve accross the board we need to see EMS become a required service. Then maybe we could see additional funding opportunitys. Well enough ranting, and again as providers I know several volunteers that I would and have trusted with my life, I just think the day has come that all EMS become a paid profession. Renny > > > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for > a > > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > > > Bob in McGregor, LP > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Volunteers are generally what they are expected to be. I have been a volunteer in EMS since the ski patrol in the mid 60's. I have never had a paid position unless you count my free ski lifts or the fact that medic was a secondary MOS in the military. I have always attempted to present myself in a professional manner, even when others did not treat me that way. I still have many who act as if I am not good enough to be in their presence. I have more college and training than most people could imagine. That does not make me better or worse, neither does being paid or volunteer. I have run several volunteer organizations and four for profit businesses; finding that the same motivators and expectations apply in each setting. Good leaders always lead by example and expect people to follow. I know that many organizations are struggling to find volunteers, but I believe that much of the problem is that the potential volunteers do not want to put up with lack of respect from their own. Most of us can handle it from outside, but when those we work with don't give it, we find that is more than we can handle. I do not believe that you can find reliable evidence to support the contention that volunteerism is holding the wages of the paid providers down. It is just a convenient scape goat. When I ran a Continuing Education program, I heard people say that providing non-credit classes through continuing education was hurting college enrollments. They did not have any more evidence than those who are railing on volunteers. In fact, history does not support either contention. What does hurt salaries is that we are not organized. We have divided ourselves into camps and refuse to work together. We have state and national organizations of EMS that struggle because we cannot bother to get involved. Every professional group that has moved their status and pay up have done two things, organized and pushed higher education standards. Both doctors and nurses volunteer and their salaries are not hurting, but they have organized and require higher educational standards than they used to. Bob Dr. Bob Folden, EMT-B So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom! KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I > would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, > just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. > Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing > that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and > count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. > People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. > Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what > incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a > must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business > and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than > some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving > their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I > am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a > volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would > for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check > won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Bob, Well stated. Couldn't add a thing. BRAVO! Dave Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Re: Re: Volunteer Standards Volunteers are generally what they are expected to be. I have been a volunteer in EMS since the ski patrol in the mid 60's. I have never had a paid position unless you count my free ski lifts or the fact that medic was a secondary MOS in the military. I have always attempted to present myself in a professional manner, even when others did not treat me that way. I still have many who act as if I am not good enough to be in their presence. I have more college and training than most people could imagine. That does not make me better or worse, neither does being paid or volunteer. I have run several volunteer organizations and four for profit businesses; finding that the same motivators and expectations apply in each setting. Good leaders always lead by example and expect people to follow. I know that many organizations are struggling to find volunteers, but I believe that much of the problem is that the potential volunteers do not want to put up with lack of respect from their own. Most of us can handle it from outside, but when those we work with don't give it, we find that is more than we can handle. I do not believe that you can find reliable evidence to support the contention that volunteerism is holding the wages of the paid providers down. It is just a convenient scape goat. When I ran a Continuing Education program, I heard people say that providing non-credit classes through continuing education was hurting college enrollments. They did not have any more evidence than those who are railing on volunteers. In fact, history does not support either contention. What does hurt salaries is that we are not organized. We have divided ourselves into camps and refuse to work together. We have state and national organizations of EMS that struggle because we cannot bother to get involved. Every professional group that has moved their status and pay up have done two things, organized and pushed higher education standards. Both doctors and nurses volunteer and their salaries are not hurting, but they have organized and require higher educational standards than they used to. Bob Dr. Bob Folden, EMT-B So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom! KACEY SAMMONS wrote: > > As a volunteer myself not only do I disagree, If I got offended I > would take offense. > Saying volunteers won't come up to standard is a gross stereotype, > just as saying no man will ask for directions or all blonds are dumb. > Volunteers can follow standards given the policies and training needed. > It works better if you give them some respect for what they are doing > that others get paid for (I work for a paycheck in EMS also), and > count them as the professionals they can be regardless of pay grade. > Make sure your paid staff follows the standards and rules as well. > People are not likely to comply for free when the paid staff doesn't. > Incentives are always helpful but once again communication on what > incentives are available and what you have to do to get them are a > must,and the distribution has to be fair for everyone. > I have been a volunteer longer than I have been paid in this business > and I see many volunteers that meet standards as well or better than > some paid folks. They take pride in their job, appearance and serving > their community. I am the same paid or volunteer and I can't imagine I > am that unique. > If everyone is treatied fairly, given an opportunity to succeed, and a > volunteer still doesn't comply get rid of them the same as you would > for paid staff. If they are just lazy or complacent, a pay check > won't change things. > > My 2 cents. > Kacey > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 OK take 15 minutes. It would help. Why pay for what you can get for free? I don't deserve a check for being in EMS or any other profession. I do deserve a decent check for doing my job and doing it well. How about we live in a perfect place and all professions just do their job for free. Trashmen gather trash for free. Plumbers unstop your toilet for free. Doctors charge no patients. Accountants can balance all our check books for free. It makes no sense. It ain't going to happen. Yes they will donate some time but not all. But if a lot of those groups had high numbers giving services away for free, you can bet it would affect the pay of those that still needed to work for a living. EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are divided. Choose a career and go forward. Renny > > So if all the volunteers magically disappeared, you would make the kind > of money you think you deserve to be in EMS? Give me a break! > Rick > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I guess those of us who don't do EMS full-time or who volunteer are an impediment to your goals for EMS? I doubt this was/is your intent, Renny, but I'm a tad offended by your implicit statement that I provide substandard care because I'm not a full-time paramedic and I've been known to volunteer.? I'm serious about my second profession.? Legally, I'm held to the same standards.? I carry the same state license and have all of the current card courses (CPR, ACLS, ITLS, and PALS).?? By the way, I'm just curious - do you feel the same way about doctors who do medical missionary work, reserve law enforcement officers, and volunteer firefighters? -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP -Attorney/Licensed Paramedic -Austin, Texas Re: Volunteer Standards OK take 15 minutes. It would help. Why pay for what you can get for free? I don't deserve a check for being in EMS or any other profession. I do deserve a decent check for doing my job and doing it well. How about we live in a perfect place and all professions just do their job for free. Trashmen gather trash for free. Plumbers unstop your toilet for free. Doctors charge no patients. Accountants can balance all our check books for free. It makes no sense. It ain't going to happen. Yes they will donate some time but not all. But if a lot of those groups had high numbers giving services away for free, you can bet it would affect the pay of those that still needed to work for a living. EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are divided. Choose a career and go forward. Renny > > So if all the volunteers magically disappeared, you would make the kind > of money you think you deserve to be in EMS? Give me a break! > Rick > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Wes I never meant that care was substandard. I actually stated that the vollys I used to be with were some of the best. I do think it is hard to maintain your best when divided though. It is hard to stay on top of something that is only done occasionally. Don't get me wrong I am not about to claim that all paid people are great, as there are many sadly in all professions that are just present for the check, that do the minimum required. I have worked with some volunteers that I would and again actually have trusted my own life with. When I visit Fort I still assist if they need it. These limited volunteer doctor group mentioned, there are not enough people giving services away to affect the pay. In fact most mentioned are paid full time in healthcare professions , but give a few hours or days back to poverty stricken people, doing same type of work they do as paid. Good for them. I help people that have needs to. I contribute money and time as well. Again I respect the efforts made by volunteers and I apologise if my feeling that the time has come to switch to all paid EMS offends anyone. Renny > > > > So if all the volunteers magically disappeared, you would make the > kind > > of money you think you deserve to be in EMS? Give me a break! > > Rick > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 " EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are divided. Choose a career and go forward. " Renny Renny, I don't think you will find anyone in this field - paid or volunteer - who does not take their patient care seriously and with due concern for the outcomes of their actions. I don't think you will find anyone in the patient care arena who is divided about what their priority is when they are caring for another. To imply that anyone who is not a full-time, paid practitioner of the healing arts does anything less is an insult. As a health educator, I do have a full time job that impacts the health and lives of thousands of individuals, many of whom are under the age of 18. As an EMT, I choose to volunteer my time to provide one-on-one patient care to my colleagues and neighbors as I have for the past quarter of a century (FR, VFD, 9-1-1 EMS, Corporate, Special Events...take your pick). As an EMT, I have to pass the same tests, standards of care and am held to the same level of accountability as my paid colleagues. And I doubt anyone, paid or volunteer, would have it any other way. I don't think that anyone who volunteers decides to do this as a " hobby " but rather as a calling. Just as I am certain that anyone who enters this career does not do so for the salary, benefits and retirement packages but rather as a calling. If you are true to your calling, whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. If you not true to your calling, then you need to reevaluate your calling - no matter what the field. On a side note, the " we have people's lives in our hands " is true for a multitude of professions. Ask the engineers who design our roads, bridges (remember I-35 in Minneapolis), buildings. Ask the lawyers who represent the lives of both the victims and those who are accused. Ask physicians, nurses, allied health (self explanatory). Talk to pilots, ships captains and bus drivers. Look at corporate leaders who are able to make someone rich or can demolish people's incomes and retirements. Talk to elected officials who decide budgets and those public servants who carryout legislative mandates. Not all professions realize or still have a moral compass that leads them in their decision making, but unless you live alone and are completely self sustaining, your actions impact others and more likely than not at some point you have the power to help or hurt others through your actions. So to say only paid EMS impacts people lives is to be completely oblivious to the interconnectedness that our society and our EMS profession has with others. So Renny, as you are driving down the road think about the guys who put the lug nuts on the ambulance or as you are flying through the air the guy who made sure the rotors are fastened securely. They have lives in their hands also. PS: My words are only my own and not those of my employer. Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Program Coordinator Tobacco Prevention & Control Texas Dept. of State Health Services Barry.Sharp@... PLEASE NOTE NEW MAILING ADDRESS: P.O. Box 149347 Mail Code 2018 Austin, Texas 78714-9347 ________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 I hereby nominate Barry for " post of the day. " ? Eloquence like that should qualify (or disqualify, if you prefer, LOL) you for law school. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP -Attorney/Licensed Paramedic -Austin, Texas RE: Re: Volunteer Standards " EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are divided. Choose a career and go forward. " Renny Renny, I don't think you will find anyone in this field - paid or volunteer - who does not take their patient care seriously and with due concern for the outcomes of their actions. I don't think you will find anyone in the patient care arena who is divided about what their priority is when they are caring for another. To imply that anyone who is not a full-time, paid practitioner of the healing arts does anything less is an insult. As a health educator, I do have a full time job that impacts the health and lives of thousands of individuals, many of whom are under the age of 18. As an EMT, I choose to volunteer my time to provide one-on-one patient care to my colleagues and neighbors as I have for the past quarter of a century (FR, VFD, 9-1-1 EMS, Corporate, Special Events...take your pick). As an EMT, I have to pass the same tests, standards of care and am held to the same level of accountability as my paid colleagues. And I doubt anyone, paid or volunteer, would have it any other way. I don't think that anyone who volunteers decides to do this as a " hobby " but rather as a calling. Just as I am certain that anyone who enters this career does not do so for the salary, benefits and retirement packages but rather as a calling. If you are true to your calling, whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. If you not true to your calling, then you need to reevaluate your calling - no matter what the field. On a side note, the " we have people's lives in our hands " is true for a multitude of professions. Ask the engineers who design our roads, bridges (remember I-35 in Minneapolis), buildings. Ask the lawyers who represent the lives of both the victims and those who are accused. Ask physicians, nurses, allied health (self explanatory). Talk to pilots, ships captains and bus drivers. Look at corporate leaders who are able to make someone rich or can demolish people's incomes and retirements. Talk to elected officials who decide budgets and those public servants who carryout legislative mandates. Not all professions realize or still have a moral compass that leads them in their decision making, but unless you live alone and are completely self sustaining, your actions impact others and more likely than not at some point you have the power to help or hurt others through your actions. So to say only paid EMS impacts people lives is to be completely oblivious to the interconnectedness that our society and our EMS profession has with others. So Renny, as you are driving down the road think about the guys who put the lug nuts on the ambulance or as you are flying through the air the guy who made sure the rotors are fastened securely. They have lives in their hands also. PS: My words are only my own and not those of my employer. Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Program Coordinator Tobacco Prevention & Control Texas Dept. of State Health Services Barry.Sharp@... PLEASE NOTE NEW MAILING ADDRESS: P.O. Box 149347 Mail Code 2018 Austin, Texas 78714-9347 ________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 As for the comment about " choose a career and go forward... " " A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. " - A. Heinlein -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, LP -Attorney/Licensed Paramedic -Austin, Texas Re: Volunteer Standards OK take 15 minutes. It would help. Why pay for what you can get for free? I don't deserve a check for being in EMS or any other profession. I do deserve a decent check for doing my job and doing it well. How about we live in a perfect place and all professions just do their job for free. Trashmen gather trash for free. Plumbers unstop your toilet for free. Doctors charge no patients. Accountants can balance all our check books for free. It makes no sense. It ain't going to happen. Yes they will donate some time but not all. But if a lot of those groups had high numbers giving services away for free, you can bet it would affect the pay of those that still needed to work for a living. EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are divided. Choose a career and go forward. Renny > > So if all the volunteers magically disappeared, you would make the kind > of money you think you deserve to be in EMS? Give me a break! > Rick > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Bob, As one who has been a volunteer for several different groups (from corporate first response to UT Football games) for the past 4 years, the biggest suggestion that I can give that may help is " get your people involved " . The more a part of the organization that I can be, the more I am willing to give. Don't get me wrong, if I commit to a shift or event I will make every effort to attend.regardless. But, I do find that I am willing to take on more shifts or events if I feel that I am in integral part of the organization. I feel like I have ownership. Of course.someone said something about points and rewards.that sounds good to me as well. Toni NREMT-B (future paramedic) From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of l1usma62 Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 23:57 To: texasems-l Subject: Volunteer Standards How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? Bob in McGregor, LP No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1717 - Release Date: 10/9/2008 16:56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Barry, Excellent reply. I did not mean other professions do not have peoples lives in their hands though. EMS was not my first profession. And my previous profession could very negativly have affected people had I been distracted. " If you are true to your calling, whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. " Good point. While I do not think of it as a calling but as a Profession I love I guess I could change calling with love and it would fit. Again though I still feel it is time to change to paid so that those of us that are trying to make a living at a profession we love can expect a wage that would support a family. How about those that volunteer just accept a check and then donate it to charitys? OK enough of me and my opinion. Time for a pain pill. Renny > > " EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have > peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are > divided. Choose a career and go forward. " > > Renny > > Renny, > > > > I don't think you will find anyone in this field - paid or volunteer - > who does not take their patient care seriously and with due concern for > the outcomes of their actions. I don't think you will find anyone in the > patient care arena who is divided about what their priority is when they > are caring for another. To imply that anyone who is not a full-time, > paid practitioner of the healing arts does anything less is an insult. > As a health educator, I do have a full time job that impacts the health > and lives of thousands of individuals, many of whom are under the age of > 18. As an EMT, I choose to volunteer my time to provide one-on-one > patient care to my colleagues and neighbors as I have for the past > quarter of a century (FR, VFD, 9-1-1 EMS, Corporate, Special > Events...take your pick). As an EMT, I have to pass the same tests, > standards of care and am held to the same level of accountability as my > paid colleagues. And I doubt anyone, paid or volunteer, would have it > any other way. > > > > I don't think that anyone who volunteers decides to do this as a " hobby " > but rather as a calling. Just as I am certain that anyone who enters > this career does not do so for the salary, benefits and retirement > packages but rather as a calling. If you are true to your calling, > whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. If > you not true to your calling, then you need to reevaluate your calling - > no matter what the field. > > > > On a side note, the " we have people's lives in our hands " is true for a > multitude of professions. Ask the engineers who design our roads, > bridges (remember I-35 in Minneapolis), buildings. Ask the lawyers who > represent the lives of both the victims and those who are accused. Ask > physicians, nurses, allied health (self explanatory). Talk to pilots, > ships captains and bus drivers. Look at corporate leaders who are able > to make someone rich or can demolish people's incomes and retirements. > Talk to elected officials who decide budgets and those public servants > who carryout legislative mandates. > > > > Not all professions realize or still have a moral compass that leads > them in their decision making, but unless you live alone and are > completely self sustaining, your actions impact others and more likely > than not at some point you have the power to help or hurt others through > your actions. So to say only paid EMS impacts people lives is to be > completely oblivious to the interconnectedness that our society and our > EMS profession has with others. > > > > So Renny, as you are driving down the road think about the guys who put > the lug nuts on the ambulance or as you are flying through the air the > guy who made sure the rotors are fastened securely. They have lives in > their hands also. > > > > PS: My words are only my own and not those of my employer. > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Program Coordinator > > Tobacco Prevention & Control > > Texas Dept. of State Health Services > > > > Barry.Sharp@... > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW MAILING ADDRESS: > > P.O. Box 149347 > > Mail Code 2018 > > Austin, Texas 78714-9347 > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 If you are fortunate, your profession is your calling for your calling is where your passion lies. And where your passion lies, so does your heart, your mind and your spirit. It's the first thing you think about in the morning and the last thing you think about when you fall asleep. For many, the calling and passion is reserved for when you are off the clock. (The car salesman from Plano who was a finalist in America's Got Talent...he sold cars for a living but had a true calling for music and a passion for singing.) For the fortunate, they get paid for doing what they were called to do - Ed Racht is one who comes to mind when I think about those who's calling is also their profession. It shows in everything they do for they bring a passion and enthusiasm that is infectious to those around them. A passion and enthusiasm that no amount of money can surpass. This is where we all should be so fortunate in our lives. Barry Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES Program Coordinator Tobacco Prevention & Control Texas Dept. of State Health Services Barry.Sharp@... PLEASE NOTE NEW MAILING ADDRESS: P.O. Box 149347 Mail Code 2018 Austin, Texas 78714-9347 ________________________________ From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On Behalf Of spenair Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:51 PM To: texasems-l Subject: Re: Volunteer Standards Barry, Excellent reply. I did not mean other professions do not have peoples lives in their hands though. EMS was not my first profession. And my previous profession could very negativly have affected people had I been distracted. " If you are true to your calling, whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. " Good point. While I do not think of it as a calling but as a Profession I love I guess I could change calling with love and it would fit. Again though I still feel it is time to change to paid so that those of us that are trying to make a living at a profession we love can expect a wage that would support a family. How about those that volunteer just accept a check and then donate it to charitys? OK enough of me and my opinion. Time for a pain pill. Renny > > " EMS is not and should not be a hobby. It is serious business. We have > peoples lives in our hands. It is hard to do your best if you are > divided. Choose a career and go forward. " > > Renny > > Renny, > > > > I don't think you will find anyone in this field - paid or volunteer - > who does not take their patient care seriously and with due concern for > the outcomes of their actions. I don't think you will find anyone in the > patient care arena who is divided about what their priority is when they > are caring for another. To imply that anyone who is not a full-time, > paid practitioner of the healing arts does anything less is an insult. > As a health educator, I do have a full time job that impacts the health > and lives of thousands of individuals, many of whom are under the age of > 18. As an EMT, I choose to volunteer my time to provide one-on-one > patient care to my colleagues and neighbors as I have for the past > quarter of a century (FR, VFD, 9-1-1 EMS, Corporate, Special > Events...take your pick). As an EMT, I have to pass the same tests, > standards of care and am held to the same level of accountability as my > paid colleagues. And I doubt anyone, paid or volunteer, would have it > any other way. > > > > I don't think that anyone who volunteers decides to do this as a " hobby " > but rather as a calling. Just as I am certain that anyone who enters > this career does not do so for the salary, benefits and retirement > packages but rather as a calling. If you are true to your calling, > whether you are volunteer or paid, you are committed to excellence. If > you not true to your calling, then you need to reevaluate your calling - > no matter what the field. > > > > On a side note, the " we have people's lives in our hands " is true for a > multitude of professions. Ask the engineers who design our roads, > bridges (remember I-35 in Minneapolis), buildings. Ask the lawyers who > represent the lives of both the victims and those who are accused. Ask > physicians, nurses, allied health (self explanatory). Talk to pilots, > ships captains and bus drivers. Look at corporate leaders who are able > to make someone rich or can demolish people's incomes and retirements. > Talk to elected officials who decide budgets and those public servants > who carryout legislative mandates. > > > > Not all professions realize or still have a moral compass that leads > them in their decision making, but unless you live alone and are > completely self sustaining, your actions impact others and more likely > than not at some point you have the power to help or hurt others through > your actions. So to say only paid EMS impacts people lives is to be > completely oblivious to the interconnectedness that our society and our > EMS profession has with others. > > > > So Renny, as you are driving down the road think about the guys who put > the lug nuts on the ambulance or as you are flying through the air the > guy who made sure the rotors are fastened securely. They have lives in > their hands also. > > > > PS: My words are only my own and not those of my employer. > > > > Barry Sharp, MSHP, CHES > > Program Coordinator > > Tobacco Prevention & Control > > Texas Dept. of State Health Services > > > > Barry.Sharp@... > > > > PLEASE NOTE NEW MAILING ADDRESS: > > P.O. Box 149347 > > Mail Code 2018 > > Austin, Texas 78714-9347 > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Pardon the shameless plug, but has anyone seen Jules Scadden's column online this month? It's a pretty good piece on volunteerism and seems appropriate to link to it now: _http://www.ems1.com/Columnists/jules-scadden/articles/431819-EMS-Volunteerism _ (http://www.ems1.com/Columnists/jules-scadden/articles/431819-EMS-Volunteerism) -Wes In a message dated 10/9/2008 7:37:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, ben6308@... writes: One thing that I think that is important to explain to volunteers is that the majority of the population doesn't keep up with whether their local EMS is volunteer, combination or fully paid. Heck, most normal people couldn't even tell you the name of their local EMS service. Because of this, it's important to explain to volunteers that when we, as medics, step off of that truck and onto the scene -- we're EMS. They're not going to say -- oh he's paid or he's volunteer. Because of that, it is very important to look sharp, as far as uniforms are concerned. If you show up to a scene in a t-shirt and daisy dukes, you just made your entire department look bad -- be it combination, volunteer or paid!! As far as being on-time and calling in at the last minute, explaining that such actions can negatively affect patient care/outcome may help. Think about it -- showing up even just a few minutes late to a shift can really affect a patient's outcome if your partner is waiting for you, because you got dispatched 1 minute after shift change! (Because, you know, that NEVER happens in EMS!) I think just taking the time to explain WHY uniforms, promptness, etc are important may help volunteers. And last but not least (and this might sound rude, so I'm sorry), but if their response is " What are you gonna do? Fire me? " and they are being serious about it -- is this an individual you want on your truck responding to 911 calls???? OK -- rant off. Sorry. l1usma62 wrote: > > How do you keep volunteer responders up-to-standard? It is not the > state certification I am asking about, but things like wearing the > required uniform, being on time, reporting their non-availability for a > shift a day in advance rather than at the last minute, etc. We would > like to approach these challenges in a positive way, but a few of our > volunteers seem unwilling to cooperate. Any ideas? > > Bob in McGregor, LP > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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