newbie asks: how do i forgive BPD and NPD parents?

July 26, 2011

Dear Welcome to Oz colleagues,

I'm a 37 y.o. newbie to this forum. I grew up with a borderline mother and

narcissist father. With a few bright spots interspersed, my childhood was a

nightmare, with one abusive disaster after another (much of it involving my

parents' divorce battles). I spent a lot of years as an adult acting out

this pain in various ways before I sought therapy and began a path to

healing.

I've got a hard philosophical question for everyone, one I've been wrestling

with a long time:

To what extent are my parents responsible for their actions? In other words

-- were they even capable of better? Could either of them have realized,

" Something's wrong with what I'm doing " and sought help? Or are borderline

and narcissistic personality disorders kind of like a metaphorical demonic

possession, an illness that's totally driving them and they has no control

over nor capacity to control?

I've wrestled for a long time with the question of forgiveness vs. demanding

accountability and responsibility from my parents for their abuse. Where

I've come down is I have just about total forgiveness for my mother (the

borderline) because I believe she wasn't capable of better, whereas I have

only partial forgiveness (and still some lingering resentment) toward my

father (the narcissist) because I think he was capable of better (and also

because his pd was not as severe as my mom's). But these feelings shift a

lot and it's hard to know what standard to impose of behavior I should

impose retroactively on my personality-challenged parents.

Any input/reflections would be greatly appreciated.

BTW has anyone read Bill Eddy and Randi Krieger's book, " Splitting " ? It's an

excellent dissection of what my parents did during their divorce.

Thank you,

-

July 27, 2011

,

My take on this is that they are capable of making their own

choices but that the mechanism by which they make their choices

is severely broken. In situations where there's not much emotion

involved, they can make choices fairly reasonably. The more

emotion enters into the picture, the less reasonable their

choices become. One result is that they can treat people who are

strangers quite well while tormenting and abusing those they

should be closest to.

I don't think it is all the mental illness at work. I think

their underlying personality has an effect on how they behave.

Much of the stuff my nada does is probably not intended to be

horrible. She's so wrapped up in herself that she doesn't seem

to understand that what she's doing hurts other people and isn't

normal. I suspect she'd be a nice person if she didn't have BPD

and probably NPD as well. Some other nadas and fadas are more

cruel and seem to have an underlying mean streak to go along

with their BPD and/or NPD. My guess is that they'd be mean even

without a personality disorder. They'd probably be better able

to control themselves without the mental illness though.

I don't think they realize that there is something wrong with

them. Part of what is wrong with them is that they see

themselves as being right and everyone else as being wrong. With

that kind of thinking, it is very difficult to realize that they

have a problem and need help. A relatively small number of them

do go into therapy and get help, so it is not impossible, just

very unlikely, for them to realize something is wrong and act on

that realization.

I've stopped worrying over whether my nada or her mental illness

is to blame for what she's done. The two can't be separated and

thinking about what she'd be like without BPD isn't helpful to

me. I've learned that it is best to simply accept that she is

the way she is and that she's not going to change. I find anger

to be helpful to the extent that it reminds me to continue to

protect myself from her actions. Beyond that, holding on to

anger is corrosive and consumes a lot of energy that I don't

want to give it. I won't say that I've forgiven her for her

actions, but I don't see much point to holding on to a lot of

anger either.

At 06:16 PM 07/26/2011 Bike Withme wrote:

>Dear Welcome to Oz colleagues,

>

>I'm a 37 y.o. newbie to this forum. I grew up with a borderline

>mother and

>narcissist father. With a few bright spots interspersed, my

>childhood was a

>nightmare, with one abusive disaster after another (much of it

>involving my

>parents' divorce battles). I spent a lot of years as an adult

>acting out

>this pain in various ways before I sought therapy and began a

>path to

>healing.

>

>I've got a hard philosophical question for everyone, one I've

>been wrestling

>with a long time:

>

>To what extent are my parents responsible for their actions? In

>other words

>-- were they even capable of better? Could either of them have

>realized,

> " Something's wrong with what I'm doing " and sought help? Or are

>borderline

>and narcissistic personality disorders kind of like a

>metaphorical demonic

>possession, an illness that's totally driving them and they has

>no control

>over nor capacity to control?

>

>I've wrestled for a long time with the question of forgiveness

>vs. demanding

>accountability and responsibility from my parents for their

>abuse. Where

>I've come down is I have just about total forgiveness for my

>mother (the

>borderline) because I believe she wasn't capable of better,

>whereas I have

>only partial forgiveness (and still some lingering resentment)

>toward my

>father (the narcissist) because I think he was capable of

>better (and also

>because his pd was not as severe as my mom's). But these

>feelings shift a

>lot and it's hard to know what standard to impose of behavior I

>should

>impose retroactively on my personality-challenged parents.

>

>Any input/reflections would be greatly appreciated.

>

>BTW has anyone read Bill Eddy and Randi Krieger's book,

> " Splitting " ? It's an

>excellent dissection of what my parents did during their

>divorce.

>

>Thank you,

>-

--

Katrina

July 28, 2011

,

I don't know if this is much help, but this getting to forgiveness is a process

that each of us has to go through in our own way. Some of us never do. Myself, I

still find anger at times for the people who my parents were when I was a child.

They are very different people now, and luckily so am I. Now that they do not

have any real power over me, I find them both pathetic.

My BPD nada could pull herself together and behave when she thought someone

outside the family might notice her and judge her poorly. She might have BPD,

and I can feel sorry for her, but as a mother myself I cannot understand why she

couldn't pull it together for her children the way she could for random

strangers. Not only that, she treated her first child, my half sis, like a mange

ridden dog while I was the golden child. My heart breaks for what my sis endured

due to nada's splitting. I was the enmeshed kid--I got intermittent

reinforcement that I was 'ok' when I behaved the way nada wanted. This is

sickening. She must have been somewhat cognizant of the games she was playing.

My father: his first role was as hero-savior to divorced waif/hermit nada. He

was a good daddy when I was little. He and nada were very happy and

affectionate. But nada evolved into an unhappy, depressed witch. Daddy became a

dishrag, soaking up all her hate. Fada is completely brainwashed, he thinks he

has a wonderful, happy marriage and a loving family. Sometimes I am angrier at

him for being so oblivious, and letting her run wild and ruin our family.

My nada's mom was a NPD. I couldn't stand the woman, and she didn't like anyone

but herself. She was petty and selfish, easy to hate. If I had a NPD as a

parent, I don't know that I could forgive.

Like I said, it's an on-going process. Welcome to the forum, BTW, but very sorry

you grew up with this crap in your life.

>

> Dear Welcome to Oz colleagues,

>

> I'm a 37 y.o. newbie to this forum. I grew up with a borderline mother and

> narcissist father. With a few bright spots interspersed, my childhood was a

> nightmare, with one abusive disaster after another (much of it involving my

> parents' divorce battles). I spent a lot of years as an adult acting out

> this pain in various ways before I sought therapy and began a path to

> healing.

>

> I've got a hard philosophical question for everyone, one I've been wrestling

> with a long time:

>

> To what extent are my parents responsible for their actions? In other words

> -- were they even capable of better? Could either of them have realized,

> " Something's wrong with what I'm doing " and sought help? Or are borderline

> and narcissistic personality disorders kind of like a metaphorical demonic

> possession, an illness that's totally driving them and they has no control

> over nor capacity to control?

>

> I've wrestled for a long time with the question of forgiveness vs. demanding

> accountability and responsibility from my parents for their abuse. Where

> I've come down is I have just about total forgiveness for my mother (the

> borderline) because I believe she wasn't capable of better, whereas I have

> only partial forgiveness (and still some lingering resentment) toward my

> father (the narcissist) because I think he was capable of better (and also

> because his pd was not as severe as my mom's). But these feelings shift a

> lot and it's hard to know what standard to impose of behavior I should

> impose retroactively on my personality-challenged parents.

>

> Any input/reflections would be greatly appreciated.

>

> BTW has anyone read Bill Eddy and Randi Krieger's book, " Splitting " ? It's an

> excellent dissection of what my parents did during their divorce.

>

> Thank you,

> -

>

July 28, 2011

welcome to the group, there is also another thread on this currently that has

alot of opinions on it about forgiveness and the necessity or non-necessity of

it, everyone seems to have a different take on it, I am a huge fan of Alice

and her writings especially the books " Thou Shalt Not Be Aware " and " For

Your Own Good " and perhaps due to her huge influence on my thinking I remain

convinced that the hype around 'forgiveness' is due to cultural protection of

the parent at the child's expense (which is the thrust of most of 's

work). I don't think it's necessary or even important. I think people tend to

contrast forgiveness with it's alleged opposite, 'staying mad' (and it's always

anger, not sadness, that is the offender), as if there is no end to the anger,

which I believe is an erroneous conclusion. In my life some of the trauma anger

has been alleviated because I completely understand the mechanisms of compulsion

of some of the perpetrators.

A while back there was a much hyped show with Oprah or Diane Sawyer or someone

like that about 'forgiveness' and they interviewed a handful of people who had

terrible or absent parents. All had forgiven but the show missed one crucial

point, which is that every single one of the people at one time or another had

confronted their parent IN EXACT TERMS with how the parent had wronged them. I

believe it was that exercise in confronting the parent about the abuse or

abandonment and bringing it to the light of day that allowed the person to move

through their anger and come into a neutral stance emotionally with the parent,

to actually neutralize, literally, the emotional effect of the parent on their

life. That is a HUGE omission on the part of the show, this was highlighted

years ago in the book " Toxic Parents " which was groundbreaking for it's time,

and even though it's been well over a decade since I read the book I still

remember their firm insistence on confrontation and their simple statement that

'confrontation WORKS', in that it was the rite of passage out of the sense of

victimization and into a healthy emotional experience. I think it is the sense

of victimization that annoys people enough to insist others forgive and also a

bit of being threatened by what they perceive as anger at their own parents

probably. I think people need validation for their feelings of whatever emotion

they experienced as a child when whatever happened to them growing up that they

feel traumatized by and I believe with all my heart and soul that this is far

more important than 'forgiveness', I believe the lack of validation is a HUGE

part of what makes a child become BPD/NPD in the first place, and that

validation can heal a child's heart even if they have suffered terrible trauma,

and that this is the most important thing missing for children,( & that leads to

us being KO's). makes the point again and again that it is repression,

not trauma itself, that causes neurosis, and that it happens when the trauma is

not acknowledged or validated because either no one knew or the adults present

protected themselves from the knowledge of it. I know repeatedly making this

point whenever the topic comes up tends to put me at risk of being thought of as

'unspiritual' but every since I read who is probably one of my top three

heroes of all time I have felt compelled to make the point that the child that

was hurt needs to be validated, supported, and loved, no matter what age they

uncover the trauma or begin processing, and that what their final stance or

point of view is toward the perpetrators is irrelevant in comparision. I don't

believe people re-offend, repress, or segue into compulsion, obsessive, or

addictive behaviors because they haven't 'forgiven', i beleive they do so

because of feelings that they are expressing that the desperately need

validation for and harming self or others is the only option they feel they

have.