Re: The psychosis / BPD connection

[Guest guest]

I thought they were?

Being a borderline, cluster B PD, does it not skirt the other cluster B Pds?

With my mother it does anyway. When she is stressed, she will fluidly lapse into

a paranoid schitzophrenic state.

In fact, she was originally diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia when I was

about 12. She does not fit the profile " perfectly " though, she does for BPD

though. I'm pretty sure this is fairly " normal " for the BPD type. I know that

I've had conversations on here with people and our experiences with a paranoid

parent are very similar.

I've learned over the last however many years, that when she is stressed out, or

specifically with family, she will lapse into paranoia. For a long time, she

believed that I was a sexual predator, stalking her 40+ yo boyfriend and

plotting her demise to collect the insurance money. That started when I was 10.

Then there was the time that she believed my dog was possessed by the devil and

had him destroyed.

She has a lot of stories. Paranoia and generally crazy ideas about things. Its

in her best interest that we have no contact with her.

I tried to have her committed already, but was told that she had to be a danger

to herself or someone else. Guess her trying to kill me didn't count.

>

> Following on from some recent conversations on this topic, I wanted to share

> that my nada is in the midst of a psychotic episode for the first time.

> Although, looking back, it has probably been going on (undiagnosed) in a

> mild(er) form for more than two years. Fortunately perhaps, the current

> episode was followed by anxiety attacks, which meant a friend was able to

> drag her to hospital and a psychiatrist was able to prescribe her with

> anti-psychotic medication. Such a relief that she is in the care of the

> medical profession at long last....

>

> I just wanted to comment though on the BDP/schizophrenia/psychotic link.

> From my own experience, I cannot believe that BDP and psychosis are not

> strongly connected. The current hallucinations and 'persecutory

> experiences' my nada is having are so so so similar to her previous

> delusions. For my entire life, she's been continually convinced that people

> are being horrible to her, attacking her, ignoring her, abusing her,

> deliberately trying to intimidate her etc etc.

>

> A recurring theme of this is neighbour related. She has moved house about

> once a year/every two years for the past 15 years because the neighbours

> have been 'attacking her verbally,' 'ignoring her and shutting her out,'

> 'deliberately banging on adjoining walls to punish her for accidentally

> making some noise in her flat,' and so on. This escalated in her last

> appartment - she started believing that her neighbour was recording her.

> She thought she could hear clicking noises and voices of people talking

> about recording her. (I assumed she was just being paranoid and hearing

> things that weren't there because she has spent the last 5 years trying to

> record her neighbours to prove to the police/local authorities that they

> are harassing her with noise i.e. I thought she was projecting).

>

> But it turns out she is actually hearing and seeing things which are not

> there. Maybe this has even been the case for years, perhaps in a milder

> form. Anyway, the delusional beliefs from pre- and post-hallucinating stage

> seem so so similar that I just wanted to share - the only differences is

> that now the beliefs are backed up with hallucinations - would love to hear

> of others experiences of this!

>

> On a related point, this might sound odd, but since I read her psychiatrists

> letter explaining that she is having a psychotic episode consisting of

> auditory hallucinations and persecutory experiences I have never felt

> better. All of a sudden I see nada completely differently. I'm able to use

> the term 'nada' for the first time without feeling guilty and disloyal, and

> when I look at her I see a sick, severely mentally disturbed woman, and not

> a scary, volatile, violent mother. Suddenly I 'know' (rather than try to

> make myself believe) that I am not responsible for her feelings and her

> well-being. That I cannot make everything okay for her and never will be

> able to. That her temper tantrums and meltdowns are not my doing and cannot

> be 'managed' by me. That I am not weird/a freak/an outlier of society (my

> own recurring theme) because I'm anxious, nervous, lack confidence, lack

> trust in people, and expect the worst from them most of the time - as this

> is an entirely 'normal' response to being 'raised' by a delusional, severely

> mentally ill woman...(Not that I won't be working on these things...)

>

> Not sure what the change is - why things make more sense now. Whether its

> the use of the term psychosis by her doctor. Or the external validation of

> having a medical professional confirm that she is seriously mentally ill. Or

> that finally it has really sunk in that BPD is a serious mental health

> condition that is bound to have a seriously negative effect on the holder's

> children.

>

> Hoping this feeling lasts....anyway, I just wanted to share some of this

> with people who may get it.

>

> All the best to you all,

>

> Sara

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Great news! You have officially been 'let off the hook' by a professional who is

evaluating your mother. What a terrific validation it is for you! I am glad you

weren't the one faced with taking her off to the hospital.

My grand-nada had full blown hallucinations like you are describing when she was

finally diagnosed with vascular dementia (mini-strokes). But for all the time I

knew her she was paranoid and suspicious of everyone and their motives. Her

neighbors were always doing something evil toward her. Anytime one of us kids

tried to do something kind for her she thought we were after something. So it

seems the seeds of her psychosis were always there, the situation just escalated

as her arteries deteriorated.

>

> Following on from some recent conversations on this topic, I wanted to share

> that my nada is in the midst of a psychotic episode for the first time.

> Although, looking back, it has probably been going on (undiagnosed) in a

> mild(er) form for more than two years. Fortunately perhaps, the current

> episode was followed by anxiety attacks, which meant a friend was able to

> drag her to hospital and a psychiatrist was able to prescribe her with

> anti-psychotic medication. Such a relief that she is in the care of the

> medical profession at long last....

>

> I just wanted to comment though on the BDP/schizophrenia/psychotic link.

> From my own experience, I cannot believe that BDP and psychosis are not

> strongly connected. The current hallucinations and 'persecutory

> experiences' my nada is having are so so so similar to her previous

> delusions. For my entire life, she's been continually convinced that people

> are being horrible to her, attacking her, ignoring her, abusing her,

> deliberately trying to intimidate her etc etc.

>

> A recurring theme of this is neighbour related. She has moved house about

> once a year/every two years for the past 15 years because the neighbours

> have been 'attacking her verbally,' 'ignoring her and shutting her out,'

> 'deliberately banging on adjoining walls to punish her for accidentally

> making some noise in her flat,' and so on. This escalated in her last

> appartment - she started believing that her neighbour was recording her.

> She thought she could hear clicking noises and voices of people talking

> about recording her. (I assumed she was just being paranoid and hearing

> things that weren't there because she has spent the last 5 years trying to

> record her neighbours to prove to the police/local authorities that they

> are harassing her with noise i.e. I thought she was projecting).

>

> But it turns out she is actually hearing and seeing things which are not

> there. Maybe this has even been the case for years, perhaps in a milder

> form. Anyway, the delusional beliefs from pre- and post-hallucinating stage

> seem so so similar that I just wanted to share - the only differences is

> that now the beliefs are backed up with hallucinations - would love to hear

> of others experiences of this!

>

> On a related point, this might sound odd, but since I read her psychiatrists

> letter explaining that she is having a psychotic episode consisting of

> auditory hallucinations and persecutory experiences I have never felt

> better. All of a sudden I see nada completely differently. I'm able to use

> the term 'nada' for the first time without feeling guilty and disloyal, and

> when I look at her I see a sick, severely mentally disturbed woman, and not

> a scary, volatile, violent mother. Suddenly I 'know' (rather than try to

> make myself believe) that I am not responsible for her feelings and her

> well-being. That I cannot make everything okay for her and never will be

> able to. That her temper tantrums and meltdowns are not my doing and cannot

> be 'managed' by me. That I am not weird/a freak/an outlier of society (my

> own recurring theme) because I'm anxious, nervous, lack confidence, lack

> trust in people, and expect the worst from them most of the time - as this

> is an entirely 'normal' response to being 'raised' by a delusional, severely

> mentally ill woman...(Not that I won't be working on these things...)

>

> Not sure what the change is - why things make more sense now. Whether its

> the use of the term psychosis by her doctor. Or the external validation of

> having a medical professional confirm that she is seriously mentally ill. Or

> that finally it has really sunk in that BPD is a serious mental health

> condition that is bound to have a seriously negative effect on the holder's

> children.

>

> Hoping this feeling lasts....anyway, I just wanted to share some of this

> with people who may get it.

>

> All the best to you all,

>

> Sara

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm with you Sara; I'm starting to believe that future research will confirm

that many of the symptoms and behaviors of borderline pd have an organic,

biological basis. (i.e., there's some physical brain malfunction going on, like

lesions or something.)

My nada has had paranoid thoughts and fixed delusions for decades, possibly for

her whole life. But she was high-functioning up until fairly recently; over the

last year she has become completely psychotic and hallucinates openly. And

like you, somehow, the fact that her delusional thoughts and her aggressive

physical acting out are now public knowledge is like a huge... validation for

me. Even though her lifelong borderline pd hasn't been openly shared with many

of our relatives, her recent descent into Alzheimer's has been shared with

nada's sisters and remaining inlaws.

Something about her mental illness being blatant and public is allowing me to

now begin to feel pity for her.

Originally, the term " borderline " was chosen to convey that these behaviors

border between neurosis and psychosis, and I personally think that was really

pretty darn accurate.

Here's the link to a paper studying the brains of those with borderline pd, and

indicating that the impulsivity of bpd is similar to that of patients with

lesions in the front parts of their brains:

http://www.health.am/psy/more/borderline-personality-disorder-impulsivity/

Here's another paper showing that those with bpd have difficulty reading the

emotions of others accurately:

http://ucdirc.ucdavis.edu/people/papers/minzenberg_poole_vinogradov_CP2006.pdf

And here's another (fascinating!) paper that shows that those with bpd have

difficulty in some manner comprehending that they are being given to:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080807144305.htm

There is another paper that I can't find the link to, that showed that the brain

mass of the frontal area of the brain and the amygdalas of those with bpd are

actually smaller than those without bpd.

I think that brain research holds the most hope for a cure or at least for

better treatment for those with bpd. If its shown to be an organic brain

malfunction, then maybe it would be reassigned to another Axis, so it would be

covered for treatment by insurance.

And if bpd can be shown to be an organic brain malfunction, then it seems to me

that it would be clearer and more obvious that someone who is highly impulsive,

easily triggered into rage or hysteria, who can easily slide into paranoia or

delusional thinking, who has difficulty reading the emotions of others, etc.,

etc., should NOT be left alone unsupervised to raise children. That doing so

virtually guarantees that the child will receive emotional damage.

-Annie

>

> Following on from some recent conversations on this topic, I wanted to share

> that my nada is in the midst of a psychotic episode for the first time.

> Although, looking back, it has probably been going on (undiagnosed) in a

> mild(er) form for more than two years. Fortunately perhaps, the current

> episode was followed by anxiety attacks, which meant a friend was able to

> drag her to hospital and a psychiatrist was able to prescribe her with

> anti-psychotic medication. Such a relief that she is in the care of the

> medical profession at long last....

>

> I just wanted to comment though on the BDP/schizophrenia/psychotic link.

> From my own experience, I cannot believe that BDP and psychosis are not

> strongly connected. The current hallucinations and 'persecutory

> experiences' my nada is having are so so so similar to her previous

> delusions. For my entire life, she's been continually convinced that people

> are being horrible to her, attacking her, ignoring her, abusing her,

> deliberately trying to intimidate her etc etc.

>

> A recurring theme of this is neighbour related. She has moved house about

> once a year/every two years for the past 15 years because the neighbours

> have been 'attacking her verbally,' 'ignoring her and shutting her out,'

> 'deliberately banging on adjoining walls to punish her for accidentally

> making some noise in her flat,' and so on. This escalated in her last

> appartment - she started believing that her neighbour was recording her.

> She thought she could hear clicking noises and voices of people talking

> about recording her. (I assumed she was just being paranoid and hearing

> things that weren't there because she has spent the last 5 years trying to

> record her neighbours to prove to the police/local authorities that they

> are harassing her with noise i.e. I thought she was projecting).

>

> But it turns out she is actually hearing and seeing things which are not

> there. Maybe this has even been the case for years, perhaps in a milder

> form. Anyway, the delusional beliefs from pre- and post-hallucinating stage

> seem so so similar that I just wanted to share - the only differences is

> that now the beliefs are backed up with hallucinations - would love to hear

> of others experiences of this!

>

> On a related point, this might sound odd, but since I read her psychiatrists

> letter explaining that she is having a psychotic episode consisting of

> auditory hallucinations and persecutory experiences I have never felt

> better. All of a sudden I see nada completely differently. I'm able to use

> the term 'nada' for the first time without feeling guilty and disloyal, and

> when I look at her I see a sick, severely mentally disturbed woman, and not

> a scary, volatile, violent mother. Suddenly I 'know' (rather than try to

> make myself believe) that I am not responsible for her feelings and her

> well-being. That I cannot make everything okay for her and never will be

> able to. That her temper tantrums and meltdowns are not my doing and cannot

> be 'managed' by me. That I am not weird/a freak/an outlier of society (my

> own recurring theme) because I'm anxious, nervous, lack confidence, lack

> trust in people, and expect the worst from them most of the time - as this

> is an entirely 'normal' response to being 'raised' by a delusional, severely

> mentally ill woman...(Not that I won't be working on these things...)

>

> Not sure what the change is - why things make more sense now. Whether its

> the use of the term psychosis by her doctor. Or the external validation of

> having a medical professional confirm that she is seriously mentally ill. Or

> that finally it has really sunk in that BPD is a serious mental health

> condition that is bound to have a seriously negative effect on the holder's

> children.

>

> Hoping this feeling lasts....anyway, I just wanted to share some of this

> with people who may get it.

>

> All the best to you all,

>

> Sara

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think it is interesting that so many of us KO's are so hyperaware of the

emotions of everyone around us while our nada, fada's are clueless.

[Guest guest]

Hey All,

I just wanted to say thanks so much for all your thoughts on this topic - really

helps me to understand this stuff better

- Annie, thanks also for all the papers you sent on, will be reading them this

week.

Best wishes to all,

Sara

>

> I think it is interesting that so many of us KO's are so hyperaware of the

emotions of everyone around us while our nada, fada's are clueless.

>