the question of love

[Guest guest]

Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late -- that is,

what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it to myself, because I never

learned it through life experience.

Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found useful ways to

learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to be pointed in some good

directions for this.

(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic partner here.)

I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with the people you

really care about in your life.

[Guest guest]

One of the things my Sister and I do for each other is just be there and listen

attentively when we call each other, be emotionally supportive of each other,

and care about each other's feelings. I give a cheer for my Sister when she

succeeds, and commiserate with her when things don't go well, and she does the

same for me. Unlike our nada, my Sister doesn't go on and on and on about just

her own self, and she rarely, if ever, asks me to fix something for her or

rescue her or make something for her or do some favor for some friend of hers.

She never asks me intrusive, inappropriate questions such as how much money I'm

making or if I'm being more social or losing any weight, she just accepts me

the way I am, and I accept her.

If my Sister asks my opinion about a matter, I give her my honest opinion, but

in a supportive way. We have back-and-forth conversations, not monologues.

Our phone calls to each other rarely last more than about 10 minutes or so. We

communicate more frequently by e-mail, but talk a couple of times a month, yet

we both enjoy the talks and the connection it brings with each other.

When nada called she almost always had a request for a favor of some kind or

other, was critical in a kind of passive-aggressive way about things going on

with me that I shared with her, and she tended to monologue endlessly about

herself for 20 minutes at a stretch. She liked sharing depressing, ugly gossip

about our relatives and about her friends (most of whom I didn't even know), or

she would share that so-and-so's daughter had just achieved a wonderful goal or

had recently been very successful in some way and had made her mother so proud.

I dreaded nada's calls.

So, I feel loved by my Sister, and I hope I am coming across as loving toward

her in return.

Even though I'm not particularly religious, one of my favorite descriptions of

what love is, is actually from the Bible:

Love is patient, love is kind.

It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

It is not rude, it is not self-seeking,

it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

It always protects, always trusts, always hopes,

always perseveres.

-Annie

>

> Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late -- that is,

what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it to myself, because I never

learned it through life experience.

>

> Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found useful ways to

learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to be pointed in some good

directions for this.

>

> (I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic partner here.)

>

> I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with the people you

really care about in your life.

>

[Guest guest]

I am so glad that you and your sister have that in each other. I sure wish I

did with mine.

I am fortunate to have that with several close girlfriends though. Come to think

of it, I think I have learned most of what I do know about love from my friends.

I am not religious either and I find those words quite lovely and profound. I

guess it is true that one should not judge a book by it's cover. (Couldn't

resist making a joke when I could since I have been in such a low place lately.)

HC

> >

> > Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late -- that is,

what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it to myself, because I never

learned it through life experience.

> >

> > Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found useful ways to

learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to be pointed in some good

directions for this.

> >

> > (I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic partner here.)

> >

> > I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with the people you

really care about in your life.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Part of what love is caring about someone enough that you're

willing to put their wants and needs above your own. I think

that's the part that our nadas and fadas don't understand and

aren't capable of doing. My nada just doesn't understand it when

I do something I really don't care about doing because someone I

care about wants me to do it with her/him. She doesn't get

making sacrifices so someone you love can have what they need or

want. Those kind of actions are a big part of what love is

about. When you have children, you put their needs first because

you love them. When you have a partner in your life, you put

your partner's wants first some of the time and expect your

partner to reciprocate. When you have a good friend you do

things because your friend wants to do them.

At 04:25 PM 03/07/2012 heartfulcourage wrote:

>Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

>-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

>to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

>

>Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

>useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

>be pointed in some good directions for this.

>

>(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

>partner here.)

>

>I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

>the people you really care about in your life.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

This question makes me so sad. No, I don't know what love really is. I do have

a few of those close friendships, but it's hard for me to come up with a solid

concept of it. That poem is wonderful Annie- it's describing the opposite of

BPD.

I was told that love means tolerating abuse and that I as a child owed

completely unconditional love to everyone related to me. Which meant if I

complained that one of them was mean or violating my rights or boundaries I

didn't love them.

I have been told my whole life that I'm not capable of love or intimacy. Until

recently, I believed that. I thought I was weak and oversensitive because I got

so upset when I was raged at, and that normal people would have tolerated it

" lovingly, " as my nada puts it. She was always big on ordering me to do things

" lovingly " and demanding " loving " gestures, defined by her of course. I still

cringe sometimes at the word love. Which is very sad.

-ine

> >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> >

> >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> >

> >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> >partner here.)

> >

> >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> >the people you really care about in your life.

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me, she would

have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being hateful and

mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the capacity for

empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to me, and

would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of THE

EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

-Annie

> > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > >

> > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > >

> > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > >partner here.)

> > >

> > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > >the people you really care about in your life.

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yep. My nada's favorite line- " and how did that make you feel? When I did that

to you did you like it? No? Than why would you do it to me? "

> > > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > > >

> > > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > > >

> > > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > > >partner here.)

> > > >

> > > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > > >the people you really care about in your life.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow. Has your nada had training in psychology? That sounds like something a

psychologist would say; well, not a good psychologist, an evil psychologist.

-Annie

> >

> > Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me, she

would have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being

hateful and mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the

capacity for empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

> >

> > My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to me,

and would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of THE

EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

> >

> > That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

> >

> > -Annie

[Guest guest]

Love it- an eeeevil psychologist. My fada is a psychiatrist, and a very

prominent one at that, and my nada prances around saying she knows everything

about how people think because she's a psychiatrist's wife. They've both been

extensively psychoanalyzed, plus my fada's also a psychoanalyst himself. I

think that's what pushed me over the edge from being a functional survivor into

recurrent suicidal depression and what I now think is PTSD as well.

Sometimes I wonder whether if my parents had been accountants I would have

decided that they were bats--t when I was in high school and learned to be my

own person in spite of their fighting it tooth and nail. They're both very,

very, intelligent and are relentless with gaslighting and telling me what I'm

feeling and why. They've offered to pay for me to have psychoanalysis so I can

learn how to be more open with them and be a more loving daughter (read:

anticipate and meet all of their inappropriate emotional demands and really

enjoy it).

They confused me so much that I feel like I've spent 30 years doggedly working

to crack a spy code and the secret message is " you're screwed. "

> > >

> > > Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me, she

would have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being

hateful and mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the

capacity for empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

> > >

> > > My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to me,

and would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of THE

EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

> > >

> > > That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

> > >

> > > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Love is....treasuring and supporting the existence of another being freely with

an open heart.

> > > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > > >

> > > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > > >

> > > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > > >partner here.)

> > > >

> > > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > > >the people you really care about in your life.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Elmtree, HOLY SH*T! I can't imagine the Hell you've been through. Sometimes the

only blessing in my BPD world was that my fada and nada were not educated about

anything remotely related to psychology.

I really hope you can overcome the damage, it sounds that much worse in your

case. I imagine your parents to be the type that are able to get everybody else

to believe their lies and twist everything around to make it seem like you're

the screwy, unloving, troubled daughter and they're perfect parents! Like that's

logical! But yet people buy into the BPD story ALL the time.

My nada was pretty good at garnering pity/sympathy to the point where some of

her friends even attacked me for my alleged behaviour as a teenager. Nice. I

moved out at 16 years old and starved because of the horrible abuse going on,

and my nada told me everyone kept asking if 'SHE' was alright. How dare you

protect yourself and move away from the violence? You selfish daughter!!! What

about me!!?? Haha it's ridiculous!

Sometimes I think somebody should round up all BPD parents, put them on a bus

and send them to a desert island where they can drive eachother nuts and leave

the rest of us in peace to heal. Ugh

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me, she

would have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being

hateful and mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the

capacity for empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

> > > >

> > > > My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to

me, and would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of

THE EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

> > > >

> > > > That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It is really difficult for me to see love as anything but conditional even

though I know logically that this is not true. It has always been with my nada

and now it is with my BPD sister too. When she (my sister) needed me when she

was experiencing her own PTSD due to an abortion, I was the only one in the

family that did not judge the abortion, so I was there for her. I would answer

her calls no matter where I was or what I was doing. But then, whenever she

couldn't contain her own stuff and needed to get rid of it, she would attack me

about one thing or another. Of course you all know the nada pattern too...all

love then all hate. Oye. Anyway, I agree that much of what I have learned has

been from my friends as well. They have been the only true support I have had

over the last several months while nada and sisters (my other sister is not BPD

but definitely has a lot of issues) have basically turned their back on my while

I am planning my wedding. I am finding it more and more difficult though to

accept their love. Like, I know how they feel and how I feel (although I don't

actually let love it a lot) but there is still a part of me that says, " no, it

can't be real " or " they are going to get mad at you for not being more

present/for talking about yourself/for being selfish, etc. " I have to forcefully

remind myself that they are not like my nada or sister. It's really hard with my

fiance too. I just mentioned in another post that I am emotionally cut off with

him a lot. It makes it almost impossible for us to connect because I can't let

anything in right now. It hurts too much.

> > > > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > > > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > > > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > > > >

> > > > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > > > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > > > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > > > >

> > > > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > > > >partner here.)

> > > > >

> > > > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > > > >the people you really care about in your life.

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

this was true for me too. only my nada used words like confrontational and

accused me of disrupting the harmony of our home, and her favorite " contentious "

one day I realized like a lightning bolt that I am not really " sensitive " (nada

for having feelings) when people are not mean. that was one of my first keys to

changing how I see myself.

I think a key factor to love is dependability. I am very lucky to have a loving

husband. He loves me on a level that I have never had from anyone else. it is

hard to describe, he does not get it right all the time but he apologizes. He

has been so supportive of me in my struggle the last few months. he is great at

diffusing my frustration, and anxiety rather than walking on eggshells, or

condemning it.

he forgives me for having flaws.

another key is actions. Nada tells me she " loves " me all the time. my husband

shows me.

the other day on a date I had a huge accident (i pee my pants because of a

muscle issue cased by Anxiety) when we went to the car he put a windshield

shade on my seat then he put one on his and said " I didn't want to be left out. "

that's love.

Meikjn

> > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > >

> > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > >

> > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > >partner here.)

> > >

> > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > >the people you really care about in your life.

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Hellfire. PD folks are genius at manipulation to begin with, and my

parents studied hard and raised gaslighting to an art form. I was parentified

and invited into their creepy world of watching and interpreting people's

behavior. Which meant I couldn't go through the normal stages of child

development, since I was laughing with them at the other kids acting their age.

I was never really a child, and I don't feel like an adult.

It really intensifies the trauma of the whole thing when your parents convince

other people to turn on you. Like you're hoping for compassion as everyone in

sight slowly shakes their head and walks away.

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me,

she would have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being

hateful and mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the

capacity for empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

> > > > >

> > > > > My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to

me, and would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of

THE EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

> > > > >

> > > > > That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

and I'm going to second that 'HOLY SH*T!'

what a nightmare. I have taken heart over the years that I was clearly smarter

than nada, she and fada are less educated. Can't imagine how hard it would be if

either of them had credentials to back up their BS.

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny thing: if I had treated my bpd/npd mom the way she treated me,

she would have burst into hysterical tears and would have accused me of being

hateful and mean and ugly to her. Those with bpd are supposed to have the

capacity for empathy, but, me personally, I don't think they do.

> > > > >

> > > > > My nada was incapable of recognizing or caring how hurtful she was to

me, and would have screamed bloody murder if she'd been on the receiving end of

THE EXACT SAME TREATMENT.

> > > > >

> > > > > That dichotomy of thinking and behavior tells the tale, seems to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, and my mind just really does NOT want to go there; that truly would be

the ultimate nightmare scenario to me: My nada and dad with doctorates in

psychology/psychiatry. Its just way past too much to bear. Elmtree, you must

have a core of " adamantium steel " (like the character Wolverine) to give you the

strength and courage to have survived that kind of childhood/young adulthood.

I don't think I would have been able to survive that.

-Annie

>

> and I'm going to second that 'HOLY SH*T!'

>

> what a nightmare. I have taken heart over the years that I was clearly smarter

than nada, she and fada are less educated. Can't imagine how hard it would be if

either of them had credentials to back up their BS.

>

[Guest guest]

I feel like jumping in here because I had the same issue as Elmtree, though to a

lesser extent in terms of notoriety of credentials.

My fada NPD (with, no joke, sociopathic tendencies) who did things to me like

leave me as a 9yr old, with my little sister (6 yr old) at home with a nada who

he KNEW had just taken an overdose in a suicide attempt and drive several hours

away, was a " family therapist " with a Phd and a Masters degree.

The reason he left me there in that situation is because he actually wanted my

mother to die. The reason he wanted her to die was because he did not want to

have to pay her child support. He had no empathy for either his suicidal

ex-wife or his two children.

So nine year old me had to handle that situation: phone an ambulance a couple of

hours later when nothing I did could wake up, try to help my little sister, take

care of myself, deal with neighborhood kids who were teasing us because we were

so unkempt, etc.

All the while he was supposed to be the expert in the field, not to mention my

father. My nada, who survived that suicide attempt and several others, was a

social worker.

To make herself feel better, my nada made a concerted effort to let me know

repeatedly that she thought I was not particularly bright throughout my

childhood, especially as compared to my sister.

Oy f'ng vey. No wonder I'm having trouble with flashbacks as a parent.

> >

> > and I'm going to second that 'HOLY SH*T!'

> >

> > what a nightmare. I have taken heart over the years that I was clearly

smarter than nada, she and fada are less educated. Can't imagine how hard it

would be if either of them had credentials to back up their BS.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Annie and Echo and everyone, your comments mean so much. I'm amazed

all over again. I thought I had no right to be this unhappy, especially compared

to people who suffered sexual abuse or foster homes or whatever. " Real " abuse.

I've always felt like a selfish neurotic whiner for complaining about my

parents. To have it suggested that my experience was worse than someone else's

is totally mind-blowing.

My parents always told me how lucky I was to have such loving, understanding

parents, and how abusive their own parents were. They " knew " all my feelings,

they had " insight. " I'm still breathing, if that counts as survival. I'm

successful in my career, but I haven't ever had a meaningful relationship. I

was sent to psychiatrists, diagnosed variously with depression, anxiety, and

ADD, and medicated into a stupor throughout my teens and early 20's. A lot of

that is a blur. My parents think I'm on the autism spectrum and want me to get

help for that.

I take mood stabilizers now, and they do help. I read a lot about BPD because I

thought I had it, and read Surviving a Borderline Parent and Children of the

Self-Absorbed. Suddenly it all clicked into place about a month ago- it's not

me. What I probably have is complex PTSD and an attachment disorder. At least

I finally know what I'm dealing with.

> >

> > and I'm going to second that 'HOLY SH*T!'

> >

> > what a nightmare. I have taken heart over the years that I was clearly

smarter than nada, she and fada are less educated. Can't imagine how hard it

would be if either of them had credentials to back up their BS.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Meijin,

Sorry for the delay. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your experience. It

sounds like your husband is wonderfully supportive and loves you very much! I

also feel that I am often not sensitive unless people are mean...although for me

it is usually when people are threatening. the second that happens I am

hyperaware and frantic to fix things. This is something I very much want to

change. I would love to be able to embrace positive emotions and take in the

little moments as you described (great story by the way...so sorry you have to

struggle with anxiety, I do as well.)

Best to you,

Tucket

> > > >Here is another thing with which I have been struggling of late

> > > >-- that is, what love is. I feel as though I have to teach it

> > > >to myself, because I never learned it through life experience.

> > > >

> > > >Has anyone ever thought about this this way? Have you found

> > > >useful ways to learn/explore it? I'd love (no pun intended) to

> > > >be pointed in some good directions for this.

> > > >

> > > >(I am not talking about a love relationship with a romantic

> > > >partner here.)

> > > >

> > > >I am talking about how to receive and do love in general with

> > > >the people you really care about in your life.

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

>