Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 My nada passed away recently, just before Christmas, but I think I am one of the few members here whose nada actually did have a formal diagnosis. My nada was first diagnosed with bpd (semi-formal diagnosis, I guess) back when she insisted on taking dad with her to a marriage counselor " to straighten him out about a few things. " At the conclusion of the first and only therapy session, the counselor suggested that my mother look into seeing a psychologist for some individual therapy for " borderline pd. " My Sister was still living with our parents at the time, and Sister told me that mom returned from that appointment raging and went on raging the whole afternoon. So, that would have put mom in her middle 40's, at that time. My nada's second and formal diagnosis of bpd was given by a psychologist more recently, only about 4 years ago, in her late 70's. My mother's final diagnosis was senile dementia, by a psychiatrist. But if memory serves, most of the members here have nadas or fadas (mothers or fathers) who have not been formally diagnosed. I think it might be in " Stop Walking On Eggshells " that I read that most " diagnoses " of bpd are given " by proxy " , meaning that bpd is inferred by a psychologist when the behaviors are described by the patient, who is usually the child or spouse or parent of the person described. -Annie > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 My Nada believes psychology is another word for ruining families. probably because everyone she knows who goes to therapy mysteriously stops playing her games as compliantly afterwords. my nephew has been going to counseling nada thinks that he is learning to " blame his dad for everything " so no nada never has and never will be diagnosed. but if the shoe fits... I am the sensitive, hurtful, misunderstanding, contentious one. it is everyone BUT her with the problem. but a few of us in the family think she has it. Meikjn > > > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012   << Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person.>> << " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back.>>  all this is pretty standard BPD nada behavior: 1) the choice to be mean* when being nice would do it; 2) discrediting (someone has poisoned /brainwashed the mind of someone else) 3) dismissing the counselor and declining to return ( " they're all crazy, I'm sane! " )  You're not off base at all, not exaggerating at all. Recall, according to SWOE, " BPD is a hard diagnosis to make [oh, BS!] and therapists don't like to make it . "    * they seem to prefer to be mean about it, as tho' they'll get what they want a nanosecond faster while they are enjoying making the other person squirm or as they twist the knife.   To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:49 AM Subject: Actual BPD diagnosis?  I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Irene, Several of my own therapists confirmed that my nada's behavior--as reported by me, at least--was 100% bpd. That and my own certainty was enough for me. Even after I became beyond certain, though, sometimes, when I was in contact with my nada, after spending time in person with her I would doubt myself. That is part of their abuse--the gaslighting, and combined with the biological needs of their children to attach it makes for a powerful, powerful weapon of deception. One thing that was entirely consistent though, was that every time, EVER, after seeing my nada, it always hurt me or cost me in some way. Now I am to that point that even if I do ever get in contact again, I know that I will never doubt her diagnosis again. The further away a KO gets, the more they can see the whole forrest, not just the bugs on the tree leaves. --Charlie > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Nope, no Dx here. She was diagnosed with paranoid schitzophrenia when I was 11, it never quite " fit " in my opinion. She never got worse, and could easily move within society and operate well. It was a friend who, after discussing my mother with her, thought that this is what it sounded like, boy oh boy was she right. Many of the stories here are my own. I have no doubt that she has this. > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 No. My nada was diagnosed bipolar(actually manic-depressive back in the day). Her current husband actually mentioned the BPD to me, and the more I researched it, the more it made sense. It bugs me because occasionally I will try to talk to my father (her ex-husband) about it, and he will always interrupt me and say " we're not psychologists. we don't know what she has. " And it makes me so angry. No, I am not a psychologist, but I know what I have experienced. And no, I don't know 100% if it is BPD, but I know that she has been horribly abusive to all of us, so we can at least agree on that she has these behaviors, traits, and emotional issues, and issues with reality. Maybe we don't have to call it BPD, but we can't deny these issues are here! It's like by denying that there has been any diagnosis means there's nothing wrong with her. Does an alcoholic have to admit to being an alcoholic to still be an alcoholic? No! I don't know for sure if she's BPD, but based on everything I know, that's the closest thing I can come up with, and I can certainly relate to everyone on this board and have shared experiences with them. > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Irene, My own nada spent about six to eight months in a psychiatric unit and back then, the late sixties, she was diagnosed with post partem depression and borderline psychosis. This was a precursor diagnosis to what is now known as Borderline Personality Disorder. IF she ever got any more recent diagnosis, I was not informed of this. C > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Thank you all for the feedback. I know how it feels to be unjustly accused of things and don't want to do that. But thinking over how she's behaved all my life and now as an adult, seeing other women, other mothers and how they interact with their family, it reinforces my thoughts that my nada isn't normal. Between the two psychologists and my own research and reading (2 books now), it seems to add up. BTW - my nada called yesterday. I refused to talk to her but hubby did. She called, started out ranting that we should just drop off all the paperwork for her taxes (hubby did her taxes for her) since it's obvious we've disowned her. My husband is my knight in shining armor. He's so quiet and shy but he was firm, even having to raise his voice a bit to be heard over her tirade and tears. She says we just dumped her and wouldn't talk to her. He told her: Mom, do you remember our conversation on Wed. when you told me you didn't want us to call you because you had things to do and that you would call us? She huffed and puffed and said, " Well, that's not what I meant. " He told her that's what she said and we were respecting that. He gives me chills. I want to be like him when I grow up. LOL Then she was afraid I had dumped her because of some inane comment about me and her sisters. It made so sense to me and didn't upset me at all. But she figured that my hubby told me about and it and I got angry and dumped her. Hey, I don't handle things like she does. She's mirroring or projecting or whatever it's called her behavior on to me. Obviously after all these years, she still has no idea who I am. So the ice is broken (kind of sad about that) and the games will begin. I just want some new rules and new boundaries. I think she called 1. because she truly was afraid we had abandoned her and she was alone and 2. she needs to go grocery shopping. Should I feel a bit used? LOL - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Irene My mom, nada, was in and out of therapy, and brief stays in psych wards, for many years. For many of them I did not know, because she refused to let me talk to her caregivers, what her Dx was. According to her, it was always and ever, MAJOR CLINICAL DEPRESSION ( emphasis hers.) Twice, however, once with a counselor and once with a LCSW treating her in hospital, I did have my suspicions confirmed. > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. How do you know she has not been diagnosed? If she doesnt give you permission to speak to her counselors, and vice versa, all you have to base that lack of Dx on is her word. And BPD s lie, gaslight, create thier own realities. Being told what her Dx was and what she needed to do may have been the reason for her to leave some of her counselors. But, in fairness, BPD s are tough, resistant clients, and some may not have picked up on it at first. In fact, often counselors begin by believing some of the fabric of their fantasy. With time, the inconsitancies become more obvious. She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. Again, how do you know counselors told her she doesnt need counseling? That is what SHE told you, but she is not a reliable witness! From what you say, the one time there was another witness, things went quite differentlyfrom what she describes to you. Chances are, if Dad had not been present, she would have left that counselor and told her family that he said she did not need therapy. Of course she would have relationships with men only, and violate boundaries by bringing a sexual ( flirty) element into the relationship. > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. You miss the point. Accusing her? Why would you do that. Even if you are convinced, after some study and reading, that her behaviors are those of a BPD, why would you tell her that. A professional counselor would have trouble convincing her. She is not going to accept a Dx and suggestion for change from you. Regardless of whether she is a mean person in her own right, or acts that way due to the PD, what you learn about the BPD is valid to you. It is a matter of how you will react and respond, in order to keep yourself healthy that matters. You cannot change her. But understanding her can help you to heal. My guess is that most BPD s have a Dx from a child or family member who has read SWOE and had an Ah HA moment long before they ever stick with a counselor long enough to accept and deal with it there. > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her dead because I was too afraid to push back. This is hard. But fact is, you will find it very difficult to make her do anything she doesnt want to do unless it is a direct threat to self or others. I dont mean neglecting her health, I mean trying to swallow a bunch of pills. My nada had a medical condition that required regular monitoring, and surgery to correct at some point. She told me after a few years, that her Dr told her it had healed itself, and she was fine, and didnt need to check it anymore. She would not give me permission to talk to him and hear what he said about her condition myself. She lied. And that condition killed her after some years. And there was nothing I could do to make her change her fantasy, or seek further treatment. They do not sound totally psychotic and out of control all the time, though they do have thier psycho moments. But since we see those, and they show a charming face to others, they often win the argument, though it means they lose the war. I m sorry, but chances are she will follow the same pattern. But you do what you need to do to be healthy. You heal. She can, but she wont. You can as well. I hope you choose to heal. Doug > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 Just the brief description of your nada's phone call that your husband responded to, just really sounds so much like my own nada in her later years: attack, accuse, blame, project. All that anger and all those tears over literally nothing based in reality. In my nada's case the bpd trait " transient delusional and paranoid ideation due to stress " was displayed fairly frequently and intensely. She was so often stressed out, irritable, and jumping to bizarre, paranoia-laced conclusions. I could have felt pity for her, felt sorrow for her obvious distress, and merely tolerated her anger... except that she was so frequently aiming all that venom at ME and refusing to listen to reason or be soothed. It was like she was full of this toxic waste and had to release it until she was *empty*, and she had to have a living human being to relieve herself into or she could not purge herself. My mother either could not perceive or did not care that this behavior was slowly destroying me. Spewing her toxic waste at me was about relieving HERSELF, only. My feelings and needs either did not exist to her, or didn't matter to her, because (after all) I deliberately made her upset or angry ALL THE TIME, so I DESERVED to be dumped on (That is an example of cognitive distortion: my nada's perception was that other people were deliberately and continuously provoking her, insulting her, ignoring her, goading her, etc.) But after a lifetime of it, I finally got to the point where I couldn't take being her human " toxic waste receptacle " any longer; it was making me ill, both physically and emotionally ill; I had to go no contact for my own sake. Only you can determine what you personally are willing to tolerate, or can tolerate. When you can determine what your own level of tolerance is, it will give you clarity about what boundaries to set to protect yourself. Your husband sounds just AWESOME; how wonderful that he understands the situation and is willing and able to gracefully and tactfully " wrangle " your nada for you. And to digress a bit: More and more, I'm thinking of borderline pd in particular as being " emotionally retarded " : stuck at a pre-verbal level of emotional immaturity. All an infant can do to make her needs known is cry, and there are angry, demanding cries and hunger cries and pain/distress cries. An infant is incapable of caring what other people are feeling or thinking, the infant is simply a raw bundle of sensations and needs. And we simply can't wrap our minds around the concept that an adult human being with adult-level intelligence can at the same time have a pre-verbal infant's level of emotional development. It does not seem rational or logical, or even possible. But I think that's what is going on with at least some individuals with bpd. And " emotional retardation " may not be fixable. -Annie > > Thank you all for the feedback. I know how it feels to be unjustly accused of things and don't want to do that. But thinking over how she's behaved all my life and now as an adult, seeing other women, other mothers and how they interact with their family, it reinforces my thoughts that my nada isn't normal. > > Between the two psychologists and my own research and reading (2 books now), it seems to add up. > > BTW - my nada called yesterday. I refused to talk to her but hubby did. She called, started out ranting that we should just drop off all the paperwork for her taxes (hubby did her taxes for her) since it's obvious we've disowned her. My husband is my knight in shining armor. He's so quiet and shy but he was firm, even having to raise his voice a bit to be heard over her tirade and tears. She says we just dumped her and wouldn't talk to her. He told her: Mom, do you remember our conversation on Wed. when you told me you didn't want us to call you because you had things to do and that you would call us? She huffed and puffed and said, " Well, that's not what I meant. " He told her that's what she said and we were respecting that. He gives me chills. I want to be like him when I grow up. LOL > > Then she was afraid I had dumped her because of some inane comment about me and her sisters. It made so sense to me and didn't upset me at all. But she figured that my hubby told me about and it and I got angry and dumped her. Hey, I don't handle things like she does. She's mirroring or projecting or whatever it's called her behavior on to me. Obviously after all these years, she still has no idea who I am. > > So the ice is broken (kind of sad about that) and the games will begin. I just want some new rules and new boundaries. I think she called 1. because she truly was afraid we had abandoned her and she was alone and 2. she needs to go grocery shopping. Should I feel a bit used? LOL > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 You know, the more I think about this, the more I can honestly say " no, I don't know if she has BPD. " But what I do know is that I suffered years of childhood trauma and abuse, and that makes me a kid of (KO) of something. ly, this is a place for us to heal and learn how to deal with toxic parents. NPD, BPD, bipolar, just evil, I don't think anyone here would turn anyone else away because they weren't sure if their parent was BPD or at what level of functioning. We all understand the damage toxic, mentally or emotionally unstable parents do, and we are here for you, regardless of diagnosis. I feel like the BPD categorization is just a place to start. Ultimately, we aren't here to diagnose, we are here to heal. So I would worry less about the diagnosis, and more about figuring out tactics to cope, ways to set boundaries, and paths to healing. Don't let the lack of diagnosis invalidate what you have experienced--the pain, anguish, grief. It's real. You're not imagining it. We believe you. > > > > Irene > > My mom, nada, was in and out of therapy, and brief stays in psych wards, > for many years. For many of them I did not know, because she refused to > let me talk to her caregivers, what her Dx was. According to her, it > was always and ever, MAJOR CLINICAL DEPRESSION ( emphasis hers.) > > Twice, however, once with a counselor and once with a LCSW treating her > in hospital, I did have my suspicions confirmed. > > I'm curious - has most everyone's parent had an actual diagnosis of > BPD? I'm feeling a bit weird that I'm assuming my nada is BPD. Two > psychologists - one a dear friend, another from my medical group - have > told me my nada is BPD. But she has never been properly diagnosed. > > How do you know she has not been diagnosed? If she doesnt give you > permission to speak to her counselors, and vice versa, all you have to > base that lack of Dx on is her word. And BPD s lie, gaslight, create > thier own realities. Being told what her Dx was and what she needed to > do may have been the reason for her to leave some of her counselors. > But, in fairness, BPD s are tough, resistant clients, and some may not > have picked up on it at first. In fact, often counselors begin by > believing some of the fabric of their fantasy. With time, the > inconsitancies become more obvious. > > She loves going to counselors (men only), so flirty and happy, spins > her tales of woe about the husbands in her life. They tell her she > doesn't need counseling because she's so happy. Of course these are all > one sided appointments. The one time she and my Dad both went, the > counselor spent some time with him, then met with my nada. Finally the > counselor told her, " Why don't you treat him the way others treat him? " > In other words, why don't you try being nice? She blew up, said he had > poisoned the counselor's mind (a woman by the way) and never went back. > > Again, how do you know counselors told her she doesnt need counseling? > That is what SHE told you, but she is not a reliable witness! From what > you say, the one time there was another witness, things went quite > differentlyfrom what she describes to you. Chances are, if Dad had not > been present, she would have left that counselor and told her family > that he said she did not need therapy. Of course she would have > relationships with men only, and violate boundaries by bringing a sexual > ( flirty) element into the relationship. > > > > Anyway, I keep wondering if I'm way off base here. Maybe I'm > exaggerating her behavior in my mind. Here comes all the insecurity and > self doubts, I know. But I feel uncomfortable " accusing " her of having > this when maybe she's just a mean and nasty person. > > You miss the point. Accusing her? Why would you do that. Even if you > are convinced, after some study and reading, that her behaviors are > those of a BPD, why would you tell her that. A professional counselor > would have trouble convincing her. She is not going to accept a Dx and > suggestion for change from you. Regardless of whether she is a mean > person in her own right, or acts that way due to the PD, what you learn > about the BPD is valid to you. It is a matter of how you will react and > respond, in order to keep yourself healthy that matters. You cannot > change her. But understanding her can help you to heal. My guess is > that most BPD s have a Dx from a child or family member who has read > SWOE and had an Ah HA moment long before they ever stick with a > counselor long enough to accept and deal with it there. > > > > BTW - she still won't allow us to come over or call. I'm wondering how > long to wait. Should I call her doctor and let them know she's isolating > herself? Hubby says he'll give her till next Wed. and try calling. He > says she's quite resourceful and sounded pretty snippy on the phone the > last time he talked to her. I just don't want to go over and find her > dead because I was too afraid to push back. > > This is hard. But fact is, you will find it very difficult to make her > do anything she doesnt want to do unless it is a direct threat to self > or others. I dont mean neglecting her health, I mean trying to swallow a > bunch of pills. My nada had a medical condition that required regular > monitoring, and surgery to correct at some point. She told me after a > few years, that her Dr told her it had healed itself, and she was fine, > and didnt need to check it anymore. She would not give me permission to > talk to him and hear what he said about her condition myself. > > She lied. And that condition killed her after some years. And there > was nothing I could do to make her change her fantasy, or seek further > treatment. They do not sound totally psychotic and out of control all > the time, though they do have thier psycho moments. But since we see > those, and they show a charming face to others, they often win the > argument, though it means they lose the war. I m sorry, but chances are > she will follow the same pattern. > > But you do what you need to do to be healthy. You heal. She can, but > she wont. You can as well. > > I hope you choose to heal. > > Doug > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 > > And to digress a bit: > > More and more, I'm thinking of borderline pd in particular as being " emotionally retarded " : stuck at a pre-verbal level of emotional immaturity. All an infant can do to make her needs known is cry, and there are angry, demanding cries and hunger cries and pain/distress cries. An infant is incapable of caring what other people are feeling or thinking, the infant is simply a raw bundle of sensations and needs. > > And we simply can't wrap our minds around the concept that an adult human being with adult-level intelligence can at the same time have a pre-verbal infant's level of emotional development. It does not seem rational or logical, or even possible. But I think that's what is going on with at least some individuals with bpd. And " emotional retardation " may not be fixable. > > -Annie > > Totally agree Annie. You know the really scary thing is that they are using adult intelligence and ability to manipulate to serve those infant level needs. Even after all these years, I'm still shocked at how low my nada will go to hurt me if I'm making her even just " uncomfortable " . She also goes through an amazing dance to avoid anyone or any situation that will cause her the slightest discomfort. OTOH it seems like a power that the government could abuse if certain adults could be declared emotionally retarded or unfit to care for themselves, others. Maybe part of what makes it so unclear is that they can be very intelligent mentally. So much damage and so much harm occurs. And if they have children...well we know all about that. Eliza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Good morning Doug, I shortened your msg but you made some excellent points. You're right - I have no idea what the counselors have told her. And typically she only went once or twice so they wouldn't have the chance to get to know her. There was one old lady she went to for a few months so she could complain about my Dad but according to her, the lady dozed off most of the time. I'm not sure the lady was even qualified. When I say " accuse her " I don't mean verbally. I meant in my own mind. Well, and posting it here. My sense of self preservation is strong enough to never say something like that to her face. If she flies off the handle over an expression on my face that I don't even know about, imagine if I said something like, " I believe you have a mental/emotional problem and need help. " You would hear the explosion across the U.S. I was just having good old FOG because I wondered if I was being unfair. I prefer to treat people with kindness and I'm not feeling very kindly towards her. I do want to heal, be free of her control. I'm working on it but it's such a slow process. I have over 50 years of her meanness to scrape off of me. Thank you again for the feedback. > How do you know she has not been diagnosed? If she doesnt give you > permission to speak to her counselors, and vice versa, all you have to > base that lack of Dx on is her word. > You miss the point. Accusing her? Why would you do that. Even if you > are convinced, after some study and reading, that her behaviors are > those of a BPD, why would you tell her that. > I hope you choose to heal. > > Doug > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Thank you. I like the way you explain that: relieving herself of her toxic waste. Kind of like going to the bathroom. My nada does this pattern. She will be tolerable for awhile, then start getting snarky and then blow up. I know that after this recent explosion, she will calm down for awhile, act fairly human although still critical and negative. It just won't be always directed at me. It will be every other person around us. Then she'll build up a head of steam and burst again. I'm not sure what I can tolerate. I can put up with her critical nature in public. I can put up with her drama to a point. But one day she will accuse me of something and attack me and it will be my tipping point. And yes, my husband is Awesome. He nurtured me during the early years of our marriage. He taught me about love, commitment and compassion. He didn't completely understand or know my nada at the time but he knew she was icky, especially when she started flirting with him when I wasn't in the room. He allowed my anger, to unload all my insecurities and allowed me to make my own choices. I was never permitted to voice my thoughts before and I resented it. Then he started to point things out to me after my trust in him had been built. He helped me become the person I should have been. He's a wonderful guy. > > Spewing her toxic waste at me was about relieving HERSELF, only. My feelings and needs either did not exist to her, or didn't matter to her, because (after all) I deliberately made her upset or angry ALL THE TIME, so I DESERVED to be dumped on > > (That is an example of cognitive distortion: my nada's perception was that other people were deliberately and continuously provoking her, insulting her, ignoring her, goading her, etc.) > Only you can determine what you personally are willing to tolerate, or can tolerate. When you can determine what your own level of tolerance is, it will give you clarity about what boundaries to set to protect yourself. > > Your husband sounds just AWESOME; how wonderful that he understands the situation and is willing and able to gracefully and tactfully " wrangle " your nada for you. > > > -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 Love this line. > have over 50 years of her meanness to scrape off of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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