Re: Re: Toxins, was I have some questions...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/7/2002 6:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> What I read recently is that most of the toxins in your body are actually

> stored in your FAT. So when you lose weight (or go on a fast), then the fat

>

> is released and so are the toxins. This is what kills killer whales,

> apparently: when game is scarce, the PCB's in their blubber get released. I

>

> had a house-mate once that went into drug flashback mode while on a weight

> loss diet, because of the stored Haldol in her fat!

>

> Grass-fed cows COULD have a fair amount of toxins, depending on where they

> graze. PCB's, dioxin, heavy metals: it can be in the river that floods the

> fields (around here a lot of them graze on the floodplain) or in a local

> dump that seeps into the groundwater. I've hear most pastureland is pretty

> clean, because it is low-grade land that isn't used for much else (i.e. not

>

> good farmland), but there are no gaurantees.

>

>

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

>

I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do not fast

and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my veggies (tho

we grow most all our food ourselves).

Belinda

[Guest guest]

At 05:29 PM 5/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:

> > I know that in the nutrition programs I have done where you are

> detoxifying

> > the body and cells with good nutrition, it is frequently the case to do

> > regular liver cleanses to help flush out the toxins that are dumping at a

> > faster than normal rate (and quantity). When this is not done, people

> don't

> > progress as well.

> >

> > Barb

>

>How do you know the stuff came out of your liver? What tells you that? I

>know I'm being argumentative but the idea of my body being dirty just really

>rubs me the wrong way.

>

>Belinda

What I read recently is that most of the toxins in your body are actually

stored in your FAT. So when you lose weight (or go on a fast), then the fat

is released and so are the toxins. This is what kills killer whales,

apparently: when game is scarce, the PCB's in their blubber get released. I

had a house-mate once that went into drug flashback mode while on a weight

loss diet, because of the stored Haldol in her fat!

Grass-fed cows COULD have a fair amount of toxins, depending on where they

graze. PCB's, dioxin, heavy metals: it can be in the river that floods the

fields (around here a lot of them graze on the floodplain) or in a local

dump that seeps into the groundwater. I've hear most pastureland is pretty

clean, because it is low-grade land that isn't used for much else (i.e. not

good farmland), but there are no gaurantees.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

At 12:09 AM 5/8/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>Heidi you are right on with those thoughts. I have a neighbor

>constantly burning plastics, old oil, pesticide containers and any

>other trash he can talk people into bringing by. Dioxins and PCB's

>travel on the smoke particle right to the grass, IMO. I referred to

>this before but the only help I've found is thru the state

>legislators, not in passing laws necessarily but they apparently had

>their influence. The PCB's and dioxins affect the central nervous

>system somewhat lioke many other things. So you may not want even

>free butter or botter oil from our grass fed cow. Dennis

It's a pity, isn't it? Here we are in the " pristine " countryside and folks

around here too, tend to burn what smells like old tires. Not to mention

using herbicide a lot. It's against the law, but it obviously isn't being

enforced! All outdoor burning except brush is technically illegal (and for

brush you are supposed to get a permit), but we see these 30-ft bonfires

going back there. There is a lot of dumping too: behind our hill is a pile

including an old car, a bed, and who knows what else.

Still, your cows are probably less PCB-ridden than the average Seattle

person who dines on salmon -- cows are a lot lower down on the food chain!

I'll take the butter!

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

--- dkemnitz2000 <dkemnitz2000@...> wrote:

> Heidi you are right on with those thoughts. I have

> a neighbor

> constantly burning plastics, old oil, pesticide

> containers and any

> other trash he can talk people into bringing by.

> Dioxins and PCB's

> travel on the smoke particle right to the grass,

> IMO.

He would benefit from a little ricin supplementation.

Just kidding.

Roman

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

At 09:08 AM 5/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>--- dkemnitz2000 <dkemnitz2000@...> wrote:

> > Heidi you are right on with those thoughts. I have

> > a neighbor

> > constantly burning plastics, old oil, pesticide

> > containers and any

> > other trash he can talk people into bringing by.

> > Dioxins and PCB's

> > travel on the smoke particle right to the grass,

> > IMO.

>

>He would benefit from a little ricin supplementation.

>Just kidding.

>

>Roman

Wow! I never heard of that. Makes me just want to go out and take my castor

oil!

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 7 May 2002 20:16:42 EDT bilherbs@... writes:

In a message dated 5/7/2002 6:55:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

heidis@... writes:

> What I read recently is that most of the toxins in your body are

actually

> stored in your FAT. So when you lose weight (or go on a fast), then the

fat

>

> is released and so are the toxins. This is what kills killer whales,

> apparently: when game is scarce, the PCB's in their blubber get

released. I

>

> had a house-mate once that went into drug flashback mode while on a

weight

> loss diet, because of the stored Haldol in her fat!

>

><snip>

>

>

>

> Heidi Schuppenhauer

>

I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do not

fast

and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my veggies

(tho

we grow most all our food ourselves).

Belinda

*****This post probably should have been under this heading, so if you

read it earlier - ignore.

Bianca

Hi..., *the name has been deleted to protect the innocent :-)*

Here are some books you can read on fasting:

*Make Your Juicer Your Drug Store - Dr. L. Newman

*How To Keep Slim Healthy & Young with Juice Fasting - Dr. Paavo Airola

*Doctor-Patient Handbook - Dr. Bernard Jensen

*Tissue Cleansing Through Bowel Management - Dr. Bernard Jensen

I don't agree with everything in these books as they often disagree on

key points, but it is an interesting introduction. Don't expect these to

be scientifically referenced treatises either. There are several books I

have read by MD's as well but the names escape me at the moment. For a

quick intro I think the interview of Dr. Schulze should help you get

started: http://www.curezone.com/schulze/herbal_news_juice_fasting.asp.

His fasting approach is, IMO, better (on most points) than what you will

read above, although he leaves many questions unanswered. If you want a

skeptical (but not totally dismissive) view of fasting you can check out

the article on webmd.com.

Both Schulze, Jensen, and myself have had our experiences about fasting

grow out of actual experience working with patients. That is why when I

find myself disagreeing with Dr. Jensen I do so cautiously and with great

reflection. The guy lived to be 94 years old. When he himself had

prostate cancer very late in life he cleaned it up with...ahem...goat

milk. The people whom he personally worked with enjoyed great success.

He, like Dr. Schulze, actually healed people, often from terrible and so

called incurable diseases, unlike most folks with a MD, DC, ND, PH.D, or

what have you behind their name.

Unlike AV, I have seen fasting act as an enormous help in the recovery

from disease. But AV is death on water fasting, which for the most part I

would agree. Juice fasting or flushing is the way to go although AV has

his reservations even for such a protocol. I think I read that he

advocates using small amounts of cream and maybe even eggs if you want to

fast. Okay, the liver flush contains (which I use) lots of fat.

Nevertheless there is a group of Doctors who are using water fasting

with some apparent success in the treatment of less severe maladies and

actually have had their work appear in a peer reviewed journal:

http://www.healthpromoting.com/Research/research.htm

But fasting, like the liberal use of raw animal foods, evokes intense

responses from lots of folks (often out of fear) and severe resistance

from the mainstream medical establishment. All that to say it will be a

long time before we see any mainstream articles " validating " our way of

eating and healing. And even when we get establishment folks to check

this stuff out, they often get the " Becker " treatment, i.e ignored by the

mainstream even with impeccable credentials (academically speaking) and

thorough scientific validation. I refer to Becker, MD who wrote

the Body Electric, which should be read by all, particularly the last

portion of the book. Talk about medical people who aren't interested in

the truth! And the failure of the peer review process (and...ahem...gov't

intervention)! A valuable lesson for those who naively think that

medicine is objective and impartial and consciously searching for the

truth . There are others who would it in that category (i.e. " Beckered " )

as well - Price, Voison and Crewe come immediately to mind.

Here is a Doctor (vegetarian) who actually had tested the various

compounds coming from his body while fasting to cure himself of

ulcerative colitis:

http://www.geocities.com/fastinguc/

Here are some websites on fasting. These folks are all over the place

nutritionally (with stuff to sell about their viewpoint) but again it

interesting to read the various takes on the subject.

http://www.fasting.com/

A Doctor on fasting: http://www.drfuhrman.com/store.htm#Excerpts

Fasting Center:

http://www.freedomyou.com/level%202/Fasting%20Page%20Guide.htm

Listing rare and unusual books:

http://www.healthresearchbooks.com/categories/fasting.htm

And finally some thoughts on fasting over the centuries:

" Fasting is, without any doubt, the most effective biological method of

treatment. It is the 'operation without surgery'. It is a cure involving

exudation, reattunement, redirection, loosening up and purified

relaxation. While fasting, the patient improves her or his physical

health and gains much. But he or she will have neglected the most

important thing if the hunger for spiritual nourishment that manifests

itself during fasting is not satisfied. "

Otto Buchinger, Sr., M.D., Germany's self-described " fasting therapist "

" Everyone has a doctor in him or her; we just have to help it in its

work. The natural healing force within each one of us is the greatest

force in getting well. Our food should be our medicine. Our medicine

should be our food. But to eat when you are sick, is to feed your

sickness. "

Hippocrates, M.D., 460?-370? B.C., Father of Western Medicine

" Fasting is a safe and effective approach for not only fibroid tumors,

but also for most noncancerous tumors. Nasal polyps, lipomas, benign

ovarian tumors, and benign tumors of the breast often respond favorably

to therapeutic fasting, especially when the person is not very

overweight. "

" Fasting is the greatest remedy--the physician within! "

Hope this helps,

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 07 May 2002 15:54:34 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

<snip>

I

had a house-mate once that went into drug flashback mode while on a

weight

loss diet, because of the stored Haldol in her fat!

****Any practitioner worth his salt who uses fasting therapeutically

knows to be careful when you are dealing with a patient that has a

history of drug use, legal or otherwise (and I include coffee in this

category). Doesn't mean you don't fast it just means you are aware of the

possible effects as a result of fasting. And in some cases (like

hallucinogenic drugs) fasting is usually contraindicated.

On the first fast I ever did, my throat nearly swelled shut, and I could

taste the drugs (awful) I had taken several years earlier for what was

described as necrotic tonsils, ie. my tonsils were rotting away and the

infection was causing my throat to swell shut. I wouldn't let them remove

them (I assumed, despite their protestations to the contrary, my tonsils

were there for a reason, which has since been vindicated) so they gave me

drugs instead.

Years later, during the fast, all the symptoms returned But 24 hours

later (after the return of the symptoms) the drug taste was gone, my

throat was clear, and I had passed what is known in the literature as a

" healing crisis " or detox.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

At 04:17 PM 5/8/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>On Tue, 07 May 2002 15:54:34 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

><heidis@...> writes:

><snip>

>

>

>I

>had a house-mate once that went into drug flashback mode while on a

>weight

>loss diet, because of the stored Haldol in her fat!

>

>****Any practitioner worth his salt who uses fasting therapeutically

>knows to be careful when you are dealing with a patient that has a

>history of drug use, legal or otherwise (and I include coffee in this

>category). Doesn't mean you don't fast it just means you are aware of the

>possible effects as a result of fasting. And in some cases (like

>hallucinogenic drugs) fasting is usually contraindicated.

>

>On the first fast I ever did, my throat nearly swelled shut, and I could

>taste the drugs (awful) I had taken several years earlier for what was

>described as necrotic tonsils, ie. my tonsils were rotting away and the

>infection was causing my throat to swell shut. I wouldn't let them remove

>them (I assumed, despite their protestations to the contrary, my tonsils

>were there for a reason, which has since been vindicated) so they gave me

>drugs instead.

>

>Years later, during the fast, all the symptoms returned But 24 hours

>later (after the return of the symptoms) the drug taste was gone, my

>throat was clear, and I had passed what is known in the literature as a

> " healing crisis " or detox.

>

>Bianca

It's all very interesting! I do not know anything in particular about

detoxes or fasting -- I guess I'm thinking about toxin storage in general

and fat loss in particular. Two women I know are into *quick* weight loss

at the moment and I've been thinking about the concept. At one point in the

past I lost a LOT of weight and got very sick in the process. Probably not

from toxins: just general lack of nutrients, though I think some migraines

I get are from released substances I'm allergic to. But most conventional

people say you should aim for maybe a pound of week of fat loss, much more

and you tend to lose muscle mass. I'm also thinking though, that if you are

spending months losing, say 40 lbs, then you are also subjecting your body

to whatever toxins are in those 40 lbs and if you COULD lose them quickly

it would be harder on your body.

(One woman I know who did this a couple of years ago, on a very rigid and

low calorie diet, did end up with a really bad case of fibromyalgia and

more or less debilitated for awhile. I don't know if the two were related:

she was rather skinny to begin with and I couldn't see why she would be on

a strict diet anyway).

Fasts usually don't last that long and I don't know how I feel about them

(personally I've not been able to DO it, I pass out: my body chemistry has

never been very normal). As was pointed out (and is pointed out in NT),

fasting has a long history. As do detoxes. I don't know enough to say

anything about either.

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Carmen-

>Like I say, perhaps my line

>of thinking is way off here, but if someone is proposing a certain way of

>eating, living, etc., shouldn't their physical appearance reflect it's

>effectiveness?

That's actually a fair point, but there are two caveats: people may have

lived wrong for a long time and then discovered how to eat/drink/whatever,

so their appearance and health don't necessarily accurately reflect the

truth of their views; and people may be right about some things and wrong

about others. AFAIK Schulze advocates a low-fat diet which, while it

avoids processed foods and chemicals, does a very poor job of getting

adequate nutrients and fats into the body, and high-carb diets generally

are a recipe for being overweight.

If he does enjoy a high level of energy and good health, it probably just

indicates that his herbs do as good a job as something can of overcoming or

compensating for his diet.

Please note, though, that I say this having no personal experience with his

preparations. Though I'd stand by my point as a general rule, I don't know

whether it applies to Schulze.

>Essentially, what I'm wondering is if a person replaced one meal per day

>with juice instead of juice fasting for a certain number of days in a row,

>would there be any benefit at all? Would there be a slower, but still

>effective cleanse?

I'm highly skeptical about juice fasting, but I can all but guarantee you

that taking a meal a day as juice is a recipe for disaster. You're just

going to pump yourself full of sugar, mess up your insulin metabolism, and

do all kinds of damage to your health.

-

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 9 May 2002 12:39:06 -0700 " Carmen " <ctn@...> writes:

I'm sure some of you will think this is a horrible way for me to

think,

but here goes: I followed this link and read the whole thing. Very

interesting; however, there is a picture of this guy and he is chubby &

balding.

******LOL,

I've actually made this comment a couple of times. I even chided him once

about this at a seminar of his I attended. The balding part I don't put

much stock in but his stomach is just a testimony, IMO, to the failures

of a vegan diet. But perhaps that is to harsh because I know overweight

folks who eat NT as well. I just think it is harder to maintain your

weight on a diet high in grains and fruit. It also points out the myth

about vegans and low weight. I remember one week eating an all vegan diet

while in California. I pigged out and promptly gained 5 pounds. Trust me,

Dr. Schulze likes to eat and even jokes about it on occasion.

The other thing is that he is not chubby overall, but he does have a

belly. He looks great in person, at least the last time I saw

him.**********

Not that there is ANYTHING unattractive about chubby, bald guys,

but certainly not what we're shooting for IMO. Like I say, perhaps my

line

of thinking is way off here, but if someone is proposing a certain way of

eating, living, etc., shouldn't their physical appearance reflect it's

effectiveness? One thing about NT, Sally's picture is on the back and

she's

not overweight OR balding.

******Sure it should. But people came to Dr. Schulze for his reputation

for healing people with incurable diseases. He probably could have looked

like Madden and it wouldn't have much mattered to them. OTOH, now

matter how good Sally looks, I wouldn't be seeking her out if I was in

the throes of last stage cancer. BTW, how many women have you seen who

are balding (outside of being sick)?*********

Apparently Dr. Schulze has done a tremendous

amount of juice fasting and claims to be experiencing radiant health,

which

is of course what we want, but is being that much overweight healthy?

*****The picture might be misleading because he is not that much

overweight.

Has

all this fasting slowed down his metabolism perhaps? I'd like to lose ten

pounds, not gain ten pounds.

*****Lets get a perspective here. Fasting is ubiquitous throughout the

human and animal kingdoms. People have been doing it for centuries.

Hippocrates said it is the first thing you ought to do when sick and that

has been echoed before and after him. It is considered a form of

physiological rest allowing the body to repair and heal itself since it

does not have to concentrate on the handling of food. Americans don't do

much fasting (for reasons, IMO, which are beyond the scope of this list)

but that doesn't mean the rest of the world follows suit. The people I

have known throughout my life who fast on a regular basis tend to be on

the slim side. I don't know that Schulze fasts on a regular basis but I

do believe it is his diet, and not his fasting, that fails him. And maybe

not even his diet per se, but that fact that he eats too much, which he

readily admits.

I followed the link to http://www.fasting.com/start.html and this guy

looks to be of normal weight and by the looks of his site one of his main

selling points is weight loss.

*****He goes out of his way to point out that half of clients are in good

shape and fasting to detox, not lose weight.

Essentially, what I'm wondering is if a person replaced one meal per

day

with juice instead of juice fasting for a certain number of days in a

row,

would there be any benefit at all? Would there be a slower, but still

effective cleanse?

*****Depends on the juice. A vegetable juice combo might be quite good. A

fruit juice combo would be disastrous.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 12:57:32 -0400 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

That's actually a fair point, but there are two caveats: people may have

lived wrong for a long time and then discovered how to

eat/drink/whatever,

so their appearance and health don't necessarily accurately reflect the

truth of their views; and people may be right about some things and wrong

about others. AFAIK Schulze advocates a low-fat diet which, while it

avoids processed foods and chemicals, does a very poor job of getting

adequate nutrients and fats into the body, and high-carb diets generally

are a recipe for being overweight.

******,

I think you hit the nail on the head.

If he does enjoy a high level of energy and good health, it probably just

indicates that his herbs do as good a job as something can of overcoming

or

compensating for his diet.

*****Again I think you are right on. What I tell people about Dr. Schuzle

is that he is great to follow when you are sick, but once you get well

and need a lifetime diet, don't pay attention to his dietary advice, but

rather pay attention to the dietary advice of his mentors, none of who

were vegan.

I'm highly skeptical about juice fasting, but I can all but guarantee you

that taking a meal a day as juice is a recipe for disaster. You're just

going to pump yourself full of sugar, mess up your insulin metabolism,

and

do all kinds of damage to your health.

*****I'd agree when it comes to fruit juices and carrots and beets. I

would disagree when it comes to veggie juices, which don't seem to cause

the same problems. But I'm of the opinion that juices are not a whole

food, and like fasting are only designed for temporary use.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>BTW, how many women have you seen who

>are balding (outside of being sick)?*********

From what I can see, women are starting to suffer receding hairlines in

dramatic numbers. Not Connery-receding, but still, a lot of them have

*very* high foreheads.

-

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>I'd agree when it comes to fruit juices and carrots and beets. I

>would disagree when it comes to veggie juices, which don't seem to cause

>the same problems. But I'm of the opinion that juices are not a whole

>food, and like fasting are only designed for temporary use.

I should've qualified my statement somewhat. Definitely, juices from green

leafy vegetables are a different animal from fruit juices, carrot juice and

the like. However, even so I think they can tend to cause a problem if

taken over a long period of time without the addition of a lot of fat,

whether in the form of dairy or coconut cream or perhaps something

else. Even then juices will be problematic for some people -- when I tried

juicing green vegetables and drinking the juice with a lot of coconut cream

mixed in I gained weight and suffered other ill effects.

-

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 14:00:05 -0400 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

Bianca-

>BTW, how many women have you seen who

>are balding (outside of being sick)?*********

From what I can see, women are starting to suffer receding hairlines in

dramatic numbers. Not Connery-receding, but still, a lot of them

have

*very* high foreheads.

*****Could it be the cumulative effects of the SAD diet?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 14:03:25 -0400 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

However, even so I think they can tend to cause a problem if

taken over a long period of time without the addition of a lot of fat,

whether in the form of dairy or coconut cream or perhaps something

else.

****You won't get any argument here from us RAF folks :-)

Even then juices will be problematic for some people -- when I tried

juicing green vegetables and drinking the juice with a lot of coconut

cream

mixed in I gained weight and suffered other ill effects.

*****Interesting. I know what I want to say about what I think those ill

effects might have been but I will resist the temptation :-)

BTW, where do you get raw coconut cream?

Bianca

[Guest guest]

<<<< For a

quick intro I think the interview of Dr. Schulze should help you get

started: http://www.curezone.com/schulze/herbal_news_juice_fasting.asp.

His fasting approach is, IMO, better (on most points) than what you will

read above, although he leaves many questions unanswered. >>>>

I'm sure some of you will think this is a horrible way for me to think,

but here goes: I followed this link and read the whole thing. Very

interesting; however, there is a picture of this guy and he is chubby &

balding. Not that there is ANYTHING unattractive about chubby, bald guys,

but certainly not what we're shooting for IMO. Like I say, perhaps my line

of thinking is way off here, but if someone is proposing a certain way of

eating, living, etc., shouldn't their physical appearance reflect it's

effectiveness? One thing about NT, Sally's picture is on the back and she's

not overweight OR balding. Apparently Dr. Schulze has done a tremendous

amount of juice fasting and claims to be experiencing radiant health, which

is of course what we want, but is being that much overweight healthy? Has

all this fasting slowed down his metabolism perhaps? I'd like to lose ten

pounds, not gain ten pounds.

I followed the link to http://www.fasting.com/start.html and this guy

looks to be of normal weight and by the looks of his site one of his main

selling points is weight loss.

Essentially, what I'm wondering is if a person replaced one meal per day

with juice instead of juice fasting for a certain number of days in a row,

would there be any benefit at all? Would there be a slower, but still

effective cleanse?

Carmen

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>Could it be the cumulative effects of the SAD diet?

I'd guess so. It seems to be particularly common among skinnier women, and

I'd expect those women are stressing their bodies even more than most

people by eating a very low-fat diet and exercising a lot.

-

[Guest guest]

Bianca-

>I know what I want to say about what I think those ill

>effects might have been but I will resist the temptation

Actually I didn't have much of what you're thinking, but I found that the

juice seemed to act somewhat like a processed carb food -- my thoughts

would get fuzzy, my head wouldn't feel great, etc. This happened

increasingly over time during my juicing regimen, so once I put two and two

together I stopped it immediately. (I was juicing vegetables and mixing in

coconut oil/cream for lunch, so it wasn't my first or last meal of the day

either.)

>BTW, where do you get raw coconut cream?

Generally speaking, I don't, unfortunately. Occasionally I'll get some in

a juice bar, and I've been wondering whether it would be worth ordering

coconuts in bulk and getting a juicer that's up to the task of making

coconut cream, but mostly I've just tried different brands of coconut milk

and skimmed off the fatty cream on top. The canned stuff just doesn't

taste very good compared to the fresh, though, so I've mostly given up on it.

-

[Guest guest]

<<<< BTW, how many women have you seen who

are balding (outside of being sick)? >>>>>>

Well, actually I do know some ladies with VERY thin hair to the point

where you see lots of scalp.

<<<< I followed the link to http://www.fasting.com/start.html and this

guy

looks to be of normal weight and by the looks of his site one of his main

selling points is weight loss.

*****He goes out of his way to point out that half of clients are in good

shape and fasting to detox, not lose weight. >>>>>

Yes, he does give loads of detox info and that is certainly another one of

his main selling points, but next to the price you pay for each program is

the number of pounds you can expect to lose for a particular package.

All quite interesting just the same,

Carmen