Part of the problem in EMS (WAS: response to the low wage)

November 25, 2008

We seem to have this conversation every few months on not only the Texas

level but at times even the national level regarding the difference between a

union and a professional association.

Without trying to be offensive to anyone it (the fact we seem to have this

conversation over and over) shows part of the problem in EMS in terms of our

ability to become seen as the profession that we like to set ourselves out to

be. The basic understanding of such things is the foundation of the whole

argument just like understanding things like the difference between a

Congressman and a Senator are in terms of Civics 101 and such.

I know we have no where near the hours in class time to address issues such

as these in all but at best a fleeting time frame but unless and until EMS

folks at all levels start to understand the inner workings of both EMS itself

and the governments and other systems in which we are required to work we shall

continue to languish in the nexus of whatever we are to being a true and

recognized profession.

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

(Cell Phone)

(Home Phone)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

(IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

" Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

In a message dated 11/25/2008 6:56:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,

bfolden@... writes:

,

EMSAT is not a union, but is a professional association. There is a big

difference.

Bob

Dr. Bob Folden, EMT-B

So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom!

eric bynum wrote:

>

> oh crap. i thought that i was responding to a friends email. please

> dont email me. it was my opinion. nothing

> more.

>

> ________________________________

> From: <aggiesrwe03@...

> <mailto:aggiesrwe03%40yahoo.com>>

> To: texasems-l <mailto:texasems-l%40yahoogroups.com>

> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:02:23 PM

> Subject: response to the low wage arcticle

>

> Just my two cents but I think it is incredibly sad that the UAW

> (united autoworkers) are making somewhere in the neighborhood of $30

> an hour to watch robots build cars, and now the government is talking

> about giving them more money. Where is our bailout? If we are not

> able to work people die. I`m not saying people wont do this job for

> low wages all of us on this list are proof that people will do this

> for low wages most of us don`t do it for the money we do it for the

> love of the job. What i`m talking about is not being able to work

> because we just don`t make enough to feed our families, pay our bills

> and put gas in our tank. I can remember in recent past not having

> enough gas to get to work and having to borough money from my roommate

> till payday, and I am paid on the high end of the scale for this

> industry. It is ridiculous that if you choose this as a career you

> need to work 3 or 4 jobs to make it!!! I`m lucky I am not yet married

> and have no children and I live " comfortably " but if I had Kids and a

> wife I can say for a fact that I`m making about $10,000 a year less

> than I would need to support them, and thats based on my girlfriends

> salary and mine combined (she makes almost $12 an hour more than I

> do). I know from time to time we don`t all agree whether it be on Pt.

> care, or clinical process, or even what color to paint our ambulances

> ETC. but maybe its time to get together and talk International EMS

> Workers Union? Now I love what I do and don`t want to do anything

> else but it is getting a little silly that we literally make less than

> some Mcs employee`s, when SOME bankers have screwed people out

> of money for years can run to the US Gvt. and get $700,000,000, 000 to

> " fix " there own screw up. now I know i`m pretty much preaching to the

> choir for some of you and i`m sure this is going to piss some of you

> off but it`s time we step up and do something rather than just piss

> and moan. Contact me offlist if you have ideas on solutions lets put

> together a plan and follow through I know there is an EMS lobby group

> here in Texas (EMSAT I think but I may be confused?) and I know what

> they do is tough but they just cant do it all they need help! and I

> truly believe we need to fix the problem everywhere not just in

> Texas. So what do you think? am I right, Wrong, too young and dont

> understood politics well enough, what? Give me some feedback.

>

> P.S. I would like to add I have the luxury of working for a GREAT

> company and I do make a good living by our industry standard I`m not

> complaining about individual companies pay rate I know that most of

> our services really do try and pay as much as they can and still

> survive, the problem in my opinion is industry wide not a service to

> service problem. we can only pay waht we make.

>

> Chris

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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November 25, 2008

I just got back home from the Texas EMS Conference in Fort Worth. I have no

idea what the final head count of attendees will be, but it is at least a

couple of thousand I would guess.

I observed these Texas medics acting in a thoroughly professional manner 100%

of the time. I observed them filling classes at 0730 in the morning (yes, I

taught one at 0730 and there were probably 100 people there), and then

attending classes throughout the day up until 1700 and later.

There is no question in my mind about the professional attitude of these

folks. They represented the whole spectrum of EMS from ECA first responders to

fire based and private EMS.

The one glaring absence was any significant number of firefighter/medics from

Dallas FR, Houston FD, and San FD. There may have been some there,

but I didn't see them. What I did see were many, many rural providers, many,

many smaller suburban FD EMS folks, and lots of 3rd service and volunteer

people.

It seems that those with the most interest in Texas EMS as an " entity " are

the rural folks and the smaller FD folks.

I have often wondered why this is, and the conclusion that I have come to is

that big FD medics do not see themselves so much as medical professionals as

fire professionals, and to that extent, they are represented by the fire

unions.

I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my take. I do not mean to imply

that those folks are in any way less professional, but only that they do not

see a need to join an EMS association apart from their fire unions.

I have come to the conclusion that the way to involve Texas medics in a

professional EMS oriented organization is to make membership mandatory and

charge

them as a part of their certification fees. That's the way the lawyers do it.

Every Texas lawyer must be a member of the Texas Bar, and because of that,

the Texas Bar Association is a very powerful lobbying organization. We have

2/3 as many medics as there are lawyers in Texas. If we had 55,000 members

in a professional organization paying reasonable dues, we could hire the best

lobbyists available. We would have the attention of the legislature. But

now we are not even a pimple on the backside of the issues our state legislators

are interested in.

Alas, that will never happen.

We are professionals. We in Texas are in the forefront of initial education

and continuing education. Yet few know it but those of us who are directly

involved. I am very proud of Texas EMS and now that I have another state to

compare it to, I know just how good we are overall. We need to get our story

out.

Gene G.

>

> We seem to have this conversation every few months on not only the Texas

> level but at times even the national level regarding the difference between

> a

> union and a professional association.

>

> Without trying to be offensive to anyone it (the fact we seem to have this

> conversation over and over) shows part of the problem in EMS in terms of our

> ability to become seen as the profession that we like to set ourselves out

> to

> be. The basic understanding of such things is the foundation of the whole

> argument just like understanding things like the difference between a

> Congressman and a Senator are in terms of Civics 101 and such.

>

> I know we have no where near the hours in class time to address issues such

> as these in all but at best a fleeting time frame but unless and until EMS

> folks at all levels start to understand the inner workings of both EMS

> itself

> and the governments and other systems in which we are required to work we

> shall

> continue to languish in the nexus of whatever we are to being a true and

> recognized profession.

>

> Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

> FF/NREMT-B/FSI/ FF/

> Freelance Consultant/Trainer/ Freelance Cons Freelance Consultant/Traine

>

> LNMolino@...

>

> (Cell Phone)

> (Home Phone)

> (IFW/TFW/FSS Office)

> (IFW/TFW/FSS Fax)

>

> " A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

>

> " Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds

> discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

>

> The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

> author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

> organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with

> unless I

> specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only

> for its

> stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

> retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by

> the

> original author.

>

> In a message dated 11/25/2008 6:56:58 P.M. Central Standard Time,

> bfolden@... writes:

>

> ,

>

> EMSAT is not a union, but is a professional association. There is a big

> difference.

>

> Bob

>

> Dr. Bob Folden, EMT-B

> So much information, so little knowledge, and even less wisdom!

>

> eric bynum wrote:

> >

> > oh crap. i thought that i was responding to a friends email. please

> > dont email me. it was my opinion. nothing

> > more.

> >

> > ____________ ________ ________ _

> > From: <aggiesrwe03@aggiesrwe

> > <mailto:aggiesrwe03mailto:agmai>>

> > To: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem <mailto:texasems-mailto:texasems-mai>

> > Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 9:02:23 PM

> > Subject: response to the low wage arcticle

> >

> > Just my two cents but I think it is incredibly sad that the UAW

> > (united autoworkers) are making somewhere in the neighborhood of $30

> > an hour to watch robots build cars, and now the government is talking

> > about giving them more money. Where is our bailout? If we are not

> > able to work people die. I`m not saying people wont do this job for

> > low wages all of us on this list are proof that people will do this

> > for low wages most of us don`t do it for the money we do it for the

> > love of the job. What i`m talking about is not being able to work

> > because we just don`t make enough to feed our families, pay our bills

> > and put gas in our tank. I can remember in recent past not having

> > enough gas to get to work and having to borough money from my roommate

> > till payday, and I am paid on the high end of the scale for this

> > industry. It is ridiculous that if you choose this as a career you

> > need to work 3 or 4 jobs to make it!!! I`m lucky I am not yet married

> > and have no children and I live " comfortably " but if I had Kids and a

> > wife I can say for a fact that I`m making about $10,000 a year less

> > than I would need to support them, and thats based on my girlfriends

> > salary and mine combined (she makes almost $12 an hour more than I

> > do). I know from time to time we don`t all agree whether it be on Pt.

> > care, or clinical process, or even what color to paint our ambulances

> > ETC. but maybe its time to get together and talk International EMS

> > Workers Union? Now I love what I do and don`t want to do anything

> > else but it is getting a little silly that we literally make less than

> > some Mcs employee`s, when SOME bankers have screwed people out

> > of money for years can run to the US Gvt. and get $700,000,000, 000 to

> > " fix " there own screw up. now I know i`m pretty much preaching to the

> > choir for some of you and i`m sure this is going to piss some of you

> > off but it`s time we step up and do something rather than just piss

> > and moan. Contact me offlist if you have ideas on solutions lets put

> > together a plan and follow through I know there is an EMS lobby group

> > here in Texas (EMSAT I think but I may be confused?) and I know what

> > they do is tough but they just cant do it all they need help! and I

> > truly believe we need to fix the problem everywhere not just in

> > Texas. So what do you think? am I right, Wrong, too young and dont

> > understood politics well enough, what? Give me some feedback.

> >

> > P.S. I would like to add I have the luxury of working for a GREAT

> > company and I do make a good living by our industry standard I`m not

> > complaining about individual companies pay rate I know that most of

> > our services really do try and pay as much as they can and still

> > survive, the problem in my opinion is industry wide not a service to

> > service problem. we can only pay waht we make.

> >

> > Chris

> >

November 26, 2008

Gene,

Thanks for the update on conference. Glad to hear that the rural

groups took advantage of the education. I think there were some

there from Pecos County EMS but sadly not me. Hopefully next year I

will be able to go and visit with experienced providers as well as

attend some of what looked on paper as great education opportunitys.

It would be a good idea to require membership in a professional

organization. If all of us paid the small annual fee to be part of

EMSAT we could, even those that choose not to be vocal memebers,see

some improvements. A few thousand are not very noisey but 55000 can

be heard from a great distance.

Maybe a suggestion to the schools out there add the small cost into

the fees of the course and register the students. Make it part of

the class then maybe they will choose to remain. Then as new members

get more voice maybe some of the old guard will also join so they can

get their opinions heard as well.

Sorry for the rambling.

Renny Spencer

>

> I just got back home from the Texas EMS Conference in Fort Worth.

I have no

> idea what the final head count of attendees will be, but it is at

least a

> couple of thousand I would guess.

>

> I observed these Texas medics acting in a thoroughly professional

manner 100%

> of the time. I observed them filling classes at 0730 in the

morning (yes, I

> taught one at 0730 and there were probably 100 people there), and

then

> attending classes throughout the day up until 1700 and later.

>

> There is no question in my mind about the professional attitude of

these

> folks. They represented the whole spectrum of EMS from ECA first

responders to

> fire based and private EMS.

>

> The one glaring absence was any significant number of

firefighter/medics from

> Dallas FR, Houston FD, and San FD. There may have been

some there,

> but I didn't see them. What I did see were many, many rural

providers, many,

> many smaller suburban FD EMS folks, and lots of 3rd service and

volunteer

> people.

>

> It seems that those with the most interest in Texas EMS as

an " entity " are

> the rural folks and the smaller FD folks.

>

> I have often wondered why this is, and the conclusion that I have

come to is

> that big FD medics do not see themselves so much as medical

professionals as

> fire professionals, and to that extent, they are represented by the

fire

> unions.

>

> I'm sure there are exceptions, but that's my take. I do not mean

to imply

> that those folks are in any way less professional, but only that

they do not

> see a need to join an EMS association apart from their fire unions.

>

> I have come to the conclusion that the way to involve Texas medics

in a

> professional EMS oriented organization is to make membership

mandatory and charge

> them as a part of their certification fees. That's the way the

lawyers do it.

> Every Texas lawyer must be a member of the Texas Bar, and because

of that,

> the Texas Bar Association is a very powerful lobbying

organization. We have

> 2/3 as many medics as there are lawyers in Texas. If we had

55,000 members

> in a professional organization paying reasonable dues, we could

hire the best

> lobbyists available. We would have the attention of the

legislature. But

> now we are not even a pimple on the backside of the issues our

state legislators

> are interested in.

>

> Alas, that will never happen.

>

> We are professionals. We in Texas are in the forefront of initial

education

> and continuing education. Yet few know it but those of us who are

directly

> involved. I am very proud of Texas EMS and now that I have

another state to

> compare it to, I know just how good we are overall. We need to

get our story

> out.

>

> Gene G.

>

November 26, 2008

Dudley,

I also noticed the presence of some high ranking folks from the Big 3, and

that's very encouraging. Maybe they are taking a lesson from their suburban

friends who support the conference strongly with attendance and participation at

the Chief/Assistant Chief level.

Also, I must say that as one who always has numerous problems with setup and

takedown (the pig labs and SLAM are very equipment and labor intensive) both

the DSHS and convention staff outdid themselves this year in making things run

smoothly.

Harrel and Dawn Whitfield deserve special recognition along with Phil

Lockwood and Donn and many too many others to name.

I also was glad to see that people who have been coming to the conference for

30 years still come faithfully. It's always glad to see those great people.

But more than anything, I am thrilled by the number of new medics, lots of

them from the rural areas, who are coming and soaking up every thing possible.

We owe them a special bit of gratitude.

GG

>

> Gene,

>

> I have to echo your thoughts on the quality.? I felt there was a little

> lower attendance and?the exhibit hall was definitely less full, probably a

sign

> of the current economic times.?

>

> I thought the sessions were VERY well attended and the questions were WOW!?

> It is always impressive.

>

> On the larger departments, I will agree with others.? I saw many individuals

> from the big 3 departments. On the larger departments, I will agree with

> others.? I saw many individuals from the big 3 departments.<wbr>..probably

more

> than I remember seeing in other conferences, but when compared to their total

> numbers....maybe not a larg On the larger departments, I will agree with

> others.? I saw many individuals from the big 3 departments.<wbr>..probably

more

> than I remember seeing in other conferenc O

>

> We have to remember, there are a HUGE number of conferences that demand

> prioritization of travel dollars for these departments. We have to remember,

> there are a HUGE number of conferences that demand prioritization of travel

> dollars for these departments.<wbr>...Fire, HazMat, WMD, Ho

>

> So, I thought it was a TREMENDOUS conference again this year, I was most

> impressed with the increasing number of agency leaders from the big 3.

>

> Dudley

>

> response to the low wage arcticle

> > >

> > > Just my two cents but I think it is incredibly sad that the UAW

> > > (united autoworkers) are making somewhere in the neighborhood of $30

> > > an hour to watch robots build cars, and now the government is talking

> > > about giving them more money. Where is our bailout? If we are not

> > > able to work people die. I`m not saying people wont do this job for

> > > low wages all of us on this list are proof that people will do this

> > > for low wages most of us don`t do it for the money we do it for the

> > > love of the job. What i`m talking about is not being able to work

> > > because we just don`t make enough to feed our families, pay our bills

> > > and put gas in our tank. I can remember in recent past not having

> > > enough gas to get to work and having to borough money from my roommate

> > > till payday, and I am paid on the high end of the scale for this

> > > industry. It is ridiculous that if you choose this as a career you

> > > need to work 3 or 4 jobs to make it!!! I`m lucky I am not yet married

> > > and have no children and I live " comfortably " but if I had Kids and a

> > > wife I can say for a fact that I`m making about $10,000 a year less

> > > than I would need to support them, and thats based on my girlfriends

> > > salary and mine combined (she makes almost $12 an hour more than I

> > > do). I know from time to time we don`t all agree whether it be on Pt.

> > > care, or clinical process, or even what color to paint our ambulances

> > > ETC. but maybe its time to get together and talk International EMS

> > > Workers Union? Now I love what I do and don`t want to do anything

> > > else but it is getting a little silly that we literally make less than

> > > some Mcs employee`s, when SOME bankers have screwed people out

> > > of money for years can run to the US Gvt. and get $700,000,000, 000 to

> > > " fix " there own screw up. now I know i`m pretty much preaching to the

> > > choir for some of you and i`m sure this is going to piss some of you

> > > off but it`s time we step up and do something rather than just piss

> > > and moan. Contact me offlist if you have ideas on solutions lets put

> > > together a plan and follow through I know there is an EMS lobby group

> > > here in Texas (EMSAT I think but I may be confused?) and I know what

> > > they do is tough but they just cant do it all they need help! and I

> > > truly believe we need to fix the problem everywhere not just in

> > > Texas. So what do you think? am I right, Wrong, too young and dont

> > > understood politics well enough, what? Give me some feedback.

> > >

> > > P.S. I would like to add I have the luxury of working for a GREAT

> > > company and I do make a good living by our industry standard I`m not

> > > complaining about individual companies pay rate I know that most of

> > > our services really do try and pay as much as they can and still

> > > survive, the problem in my opinion is industry wide not a service to

> > > service problem. we can only pay waht we make.

> > >

> > > Chris

> > >

November 26, 2008

Gene,

I have to echo your thoughts on the quality.? I felt there was a little lower

attendance and?the exhibit hall was definitely less full, probably a sign of the

current economic times.?

I thought the sessions were VERY well attended and the questions were WOW!? It

is always impressive.

On the larger departments, I will agree with others.? I saw many individuals

from the big 3 departments...probably more than I remember seeing in other

conferences, but when compared to their total numbers....maybe not a large %.?

The one thing I did notice this time is the growing participation of the leaders

of these organizations.? I think that is a great start to more involvement by

these departments is for their leaders to see that it is a quality conference

and providing quality instruction.?

We have to remember, there are a HUGE number of conferences that demand

prioritization of travel dollars for these departments....Fire, HazMat, WMD,

Homeland Security, EMS, Arson, Education, etc are all conferences that compete

for dollars that are probably being restricted somewhat.

So, I thought it was a TREMENDOUS conference again this year, I was most

impressed with the increasing number of agency leaders from the big 3.

Dudley

response to the low wage arcticle