JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

December 4, 2008

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DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

- --

H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

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December 4, 2008

i'd call medical control and ask the JP for his license to practice medicine.

jim davis

firefighter

paramedic

peace officer

NOT a jp

NOT a md

NOT a lawyer

Subject: JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

To: texasems-l

Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

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DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

- --

H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

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December 4, 2008

In accordance with Texas HB 3775, Paramedics shall under the direct order of

a Justice of the Peace, take a specimen of blood from the driver in a

fatality accident, if the Justice of the Peace determines that the

circumstances indicate that the person may have been driving while

intoxicated.

Debbie

JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

To: texasems-l

Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

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DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

- --

H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

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December 4, 2008

I have done this a number of times in the past, and I have found that about

the only place you can get sufficient blood is directly from the ventricle.

It's easy to draw from the left ventricle, the only problem being that you've

got to have a needle that's long enough, and in some obese people that can be a

problem.

GG

>

> H.T.,

>

> This issue comes up from time to time.? If someone is killed in an

> automobile accident and the JP believes that alcohol may be involved, he can

order a

> paramedic on scene (FRO or Transport) to draw blood on the body for alcohol

> testing.? When I get back in the office in a week or so, I can forward you the

> language and the code # so you can discuss it with the hospital district

> legal team and your medical director.

>

> We work this a number of different ways.? We have a section of our county

> where we meet the body and the JP at the funeral home to attempt this...we

have

> a section where we do it on scene with whatever personnel are standing

> around after the living are taken care of...and we have a section of our

> jurisdiction where there is a medical examiner so we don't do anything there.

>

> The JP's (or usually DPS) has to supply the equipment (vacutainers,

> needles,?iodine pads, etc)?which they are happy to do because it is cheaper to

give

> us a blood draw kit than to send the body 3 counties over for autopsy just to

> get a alcohol level.? We then wrote into our protocols that we could only

> attempt blood draws from normal locations for venipuncture. The JP's (or

usually

> DPS) has to supply the equipment (vacutainers, needles,?iodine pads,

> etc)?which they are happy to do because it is cheaper to give us a blood draw

kit

> than to send the body 3 counties over for autopsy just to get a alcohol

level.?

> We then wrote into our protocols

>

> Now, that being said, we as EMS are the only medical professionals in the

> state that are forbidden from drawing blood for alcohol testing on anyone who

> is alive.? If anyone ever asks your guys to do that, they need to be told that

> the blood will not be admissible in court, so why should we waste our time.

>

> After you see the law, discuss it with your hospital folks and then we had a

> meeting with our JP's about this explaining what we could and could not do

> by law....went a long way to improving the scene interactions for us?which is

> never the place to try and handle this.

>

> Dudley

>

> JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

> To: texasems-l@yahoogrotexasem

> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>

> Hash: SHA1

>

> DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

>

> CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

>

> FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

>

> ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

>

> GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

>

> - --

>

> H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

>

> EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

>

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>

December 4, 2008

>

> Subject: JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF

SUSPECTED CRIMES

> To: texasems-l

> Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>

> Hash: SHA1

>

> DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

>

> CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO

WAIT

>

> FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE

TRANSPORT TO

>

> ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE

EMS

>

> GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

>

> - --

>

> H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

>

> EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

>

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE--- --

>

> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

>

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>

> iD8DBQFJN/dOvmeFbtd JZu8RAvcZAJ0c/ 3w75WX07F/ S/ZkEGkOqkrvIKgC cCRd8

>

> DH6vQFkvOuay0Vg7pj7 jXk0=

>

> =8g2r

>

> has anyone ever tried to start an iv on someone who has bled out

from a lacerated aorta?

chris kilcrease

emt-basic

paramedic student>

>

December 4, 2008

H.T.,

This issue comes up from time to time.? If someone is killed in an automobile

accident and the JP believes that alcohol may be involved, he can order a

paramedic on scene (FRO or Transport) to draw blood on the body for alcohol

testing.? When I get back in the office in a week or so, I can forward you the

language and the code # so you can discuss it with the hospital district legal

team and your medical director.

We work this a number of different ways.? We have a section of our county where

we meet the body and the JP at the funeral home to attempt this...we have a

section where we do it on scene with whatever personnel are standing around

after the living are taken care of...and we have a section of our jurisdiction

where there is a medical examiner so we don't do anything there.

The JP's (or usually DPS) has to supply the equipment (vacutainers,

needles,?iodine pads, etc)?which they are happy to do because it is cheaper to

give us a blood draw kit than to send the body 3 counties over for autopsy just

to get a alcohol level.? We then wrote into our protocols that we could only

attempt blood draws from normal locations for venipuncture....this helped when

we had a JP (and really a police detective) who wanted us to attempt to draw

blood out of the abdominal cavity (liver, heart, ???? Not real sure what he

desired us to do) and our crew denied to do it after several attempts at

venipuncture in the AC, Femoral and EJ.

Now, that being said, we as EMS are the only medical professionals in the state

that are forbidden from drawing blood for alcohol testing on anyone who is

alive.? If anyone ever asks your guys to do that, they need to be told that the

blood will not be admissible in court, so why should we waste our time.

After you see the law, discuss it with your hospital folks and then we had a

meeting with our JP's about this explaining what we could and could not do by

law....went a long way to improving the scene interactions for us?which is never

the place to try and handle this.

Dudley

JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

To: texasems-l

Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

- --

H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

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December 4, 2008

i'm well aware of the law. doesn't mean i have to agree with it.

From: H.T. Fillingim <hfillingim@sbcgloba l.net>

Subject: JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES

To: texasems-l@yahoogro ups.com

Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 9:29 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

DOES ANYONE HAVE JP'S ORDERING EMS ON SCENE OF CRIMES OR SUSPECTED

CRIMES TO DRAW BLOOD BEFORE THE BODY IS MOVED-JP DOES NOT WANT TO WAIT

FOR MEDICAL EXAMINER-NOT A LOCAL MEDICAL EXAMINER, 60 MILE TRANSPORT TO

ME'S OFFICE--IF THIS IS HAPPENING, IS IT CAUSING PROBLEMS FOR THE EMS

GROUP?? ANY SUGGESTIONS AS HOW TO AVOID THIS SITUATION?? HT

- --

H.T. Fillingim, BS CCEMT-LP

EMS Director, Fisher County Hospital District EMS

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December 5, 2008

Dudley,

Here is an interesting twist to the drawing of blood for DWI

suspects. It seems that the " dead " are covered by HB3775, and

although the law under the Transportation Code (724.017) does not

include paramedics as being required to do DWI draws, we

were 'approached' by our DA to do draws under the Texas Code of

Criminal Procedure, Chapter 18,

Art. 18.08. POWER OF OFFICER EXECUTING WARRANT. In the execution of

a search warrant, the officer may call to his aid any number of

citizens in this county, who shall be bound to aid in the execution

of the same.

Acts 1965, 59th Leg., vol. 2, p. 317, ch. 722. Amended by Acts 1973,

63rd Leg., p. 984, ch. 399, Sec. 2(E), eff. Jan. 1, 1974.

With a search warrant, the officer can order a paramedic or anyone,

to assist them to obtain evidence, which includes blood samples, and

which may not be voluntary from the accused. So, before you refuse

to comply with a court order and are arrested for contempt, you

better have your lawyers look at this as we have had to work with

our DA office to try and work out what we will do.

Something that Administration needs to address in meetings, not on

the side of the road or in your station when they drop in with a

person in custody and a search warrant in hand. Yes, it happens.

>

> H.T.,

>

> This issue comes up from time to time.? If someone is killed in an

automobile accident and the JP believes that alcohol may be

involved, he can order a paramedic on scene (FRO or Transport) to

draw blood on the body for alcohol testing.? When I get back in the

office in a week or so, I can forward you the language and the code

# so you can discuss it with the hospital district legal team and

your medical director.

>

> We work this a number of different ways.? We have a section of our

county where we meet the body and the JP at the funeral home to

attempt this...we have a section where we do it on scene with

whatever personnel are standing around after the living are taken

care of...and we have a section of our jurisdiction where there is a

medical examiner so we don't do anything there.

>

> The JP's (or usually DPS) has to supply the equipment

(vacutainers, needles,?iodine pads, etc)?which they are happy to do

because it is cheaper to give us a blood draw kit than to send the

body 3 counties over for autopsy just to get a alcohol level.? We

then wrote into our protocols that we could only attempt blood draws

from normal locations for venipuncture....this helped when we had a

JP (and really a police detective) who wanted us to attempt to draw

blood out of the abdominal cavity (liver, heart, ???? Not real sure

what he desired us to do) and our crew denied to do it after several

attempts at venipuncture in the AC, Femoral and EJ.

>

> Now, that being said, we as EMS are the only medical professionals

in the state that are forbidden from drawing blood for alcohol

testing on anyone who is alive.? If anyone ever asks your guys to do

that, they need to be told that the blood will not be admissible in

court, so why should we waste our time.

>

> After you see the law, discuss it with your hospital folks and

then we had a meeting with our JP's about this explaining what we

could and could not do by law....went a long way to improving the

scene interactions for us?which is never the place to try and handle

this.

>

> Dudley

>

> >

December 6, 2008

A search warrant seems extreme for a DWI blood draw when the officer can take

the person to an ED and get it drawn by force with no warrant or interaction

with a judge.

Dud

Re: JP ORDERING BLOOD DRAWS ON SCENES OF SUSPECTED CRIMES