does mental illness really exist, in the way Psychiatry tells us it does, especially when the real story is changing?

[Guest guest]

Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done by

Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close to

agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect our

points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks play

with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current paradigms....

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in dialogue

with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do not mean to

judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I want us all

to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and when I read

carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I get angry.

It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the lack of

common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told when I say

that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my endocrine system...

is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double what you are paying

now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my condition is short lived,

if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social outlets, exercise and vitamins

for my " condition. " The brain substrate is hugely comprised of high quality fat.

if we don't eat the right substrate, who know how all that neurology can be

impacted. And we now know we have a gut-brain. How our brain works depends on

our microflora in the gut and how robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental

health, perhaps.

I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in utero

because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the stage

for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she has food

sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a normal way.

Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health. I

think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had to

say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of mine

had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that the

anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he has

been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has been

able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are huge. No

mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8 hours

(excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always knew

there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me he

had a broken brain, and that is back.

Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

In Peace,

[Guest guest]

I think that none of us are qualified to diagnose each other and should

therefore refrain from debating whether or not someone's illness exists or not.

We should all stick to the community guidelines that we only say what worked for

us,, rather than telling everone what causes one illness or another as if it is

irrefutable. I, for one, find the continuation of this discussion offensive &

would prefer that we go back to focusing on recovering from the effects of our

BPD parents. I'm sure there are other forums on the internet in which people who

want to debate the existence of mental illness and conspiracies of the medical

field or best practices of using new drugs can go for that specific purpose.

I do not believethis discussion is inline with the purpose of this group.

Thank you,

>

> Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

>

> You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

>

>

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

>

> I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

>

> Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

>

> I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in utero

because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the stage

for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she has food

sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a normal way.

Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

>

> Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health. I

think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

>

> Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

>

>

> And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

>

> When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

>

> My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

>

> Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

>

> Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

>

> In Peace,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with alfdancer; this Group about sharing our own individual, personal

experiences, exactly. Sharing what worked for you, personally, is one thing

and can be helpful, but promoting medical opinions (i.e " *nobody* should take

meds " or " everybody should use this treatment " ) can be harmful.

Its one thing to speculate or ask questions, its another entirely different

thing to state in an irrefutable manner that " this is good " and " this is bad " or

" this is the truth " regarding someone else's medical condition, or regarding

what causes medical conditions, or regarding whether mental illnesses are even

real, etc.

I too wish this thread of discussion would shut down.

-Annie

> >

> > Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

> >

> > You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

> >

> >

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

> >

> > I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

> >

> > Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

> >

> > I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in

utero because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the

stage for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she

has food sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a

normal way. Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

> >

> > Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health.

I think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

> >

> > Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

> >

> >

> > And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

> >

> > When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

> >

> > My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

> >

> > Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

> >

> > Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

> >

> > In Peace,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree with you. Both sides of my family are N ish. When someone starts the

discussion with a radical position and wants to defend their " rightness " thats

the start of a fight. IF someone engages...

Sent from my iPhone

> I think that none of us are qualified to diagnose each other and should

therefore refrain from debating whether or not someone's illness exists or not.

We should all stick to the community guidelines that we only say what worked for

us,, rather than telling everone what causes one illness or another as if it is

irrefutable. I, for one, find the continuation of this discussion offensive &

would prefer that we go back to focusing on recovering from the effects of our

BPD parents. I'm sure there are other forums on the internet in which people who

want to debate the existence of mental illness and conspiracies of the medical

field or best practices of using new drugs can go for that specific purpose.

>

> I do not believethis discussion is inline with the purpose of this group.

>

> Thank you,

>

>

>

> >

> > Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

> >

> > You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current paradigms....

> >

> >

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

> >

> > I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

> >

> > Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told when

I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my endocrine

system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double what you

are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my condition is

short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social outlets, exercise

and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is hugely comprised of high

quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who know how all that

neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a gut-brain. How our brain

works depends on our microflora in the gut and how robustly we feed it. In the

gut is our mental health, perhaps.

> >

> > I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in

utero because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the

stage for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she

has food sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a

normal way. Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

> >

> > Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health.

I think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

> >

> > Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

> >

> >

> > And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

> >

> > When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He decided

to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared, and did

my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would advocate he get

back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was jeopardizing his health.

He has been suicidal in the past and has been on anti-depressants for at least

eight years. In that time, he also developed mania (they told him he was bipolar

and said in a misleading way.. that his anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the

depression. I am increasingly skeptical of this analysis. Here is why.

> >

> > My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

> >

> > Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

> >

> > Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

> >

> > In Peace,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree with . While interesting, this is the wrong place to discuss this

topic. And de-railing. And even hurtful.

K

> >

> > Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

> >

> > You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

> >

> >

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

> >

> > I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

> >

> > Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

> >

> > I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in

utero because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the

stage for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she

has food sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a

normal way. Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

> >

> > Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health.

I think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

> >

> > Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

> >

> >

> > And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

> >

> > When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

> >

> > My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

> >

> > Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

> >

> > Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

> >

> > In Peace,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I share your concern too, , but from another angle.

As with politics and religion, each one of us has anecdotal stories we could

share here to either support or dismiss each other on many controversial

subjects.

Perhaps I am wrong; the others here will certainly let me know. But aren't we

here to support, inform, share and vent regarding the BPD's in our lives? Then

why are we getting stuck on debating depression, big pharma conspiracies, and

whether someone here is pushing black & white agendas? It seems this continuing

focus is what is causing the divisiveness. We've wandered off track.

We are all intelligent adults here. No one here strikes me as particularly

naive. As capable adults, we pick and choose through the minefield of daily life

without expecting people the people of WTO to pop up and tell us our thinking is

wrong. As my nada likes to say, she just wants to tell me how my 'thinking is

wrong.' It is no wonder so many of us here had such a visceral reaction--perhaps

not to the message itself, but in how it was delivered as a certainty. We KO's

have been subjected to enough games of uproar in our lives.

All a poster needs to do if they wish to inform the group of something they

found important is to simply post a link--that depersonalizes the message, and

people are free to take it or leave it without feeling ambushed by someone's

agenda. No debate required.

>

> Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

>

> You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

>

>

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

>

> I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

>

> Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

>

> I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in utero

because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the stage

for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she has food

sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a normal way.

Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

>

> Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health. I

think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

>

> Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

>

>

> And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

>

> When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

>

> My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

>

> Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

>

> Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

>

> In Peace,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I've just caught up reading the replies from , Annie, Millicent & K. I

agree wholeheartedly, and to that end will not be involved in any future replies

to this or the depression debate thread.

Hugs to all, with peace and kindness!

> >

> > Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

> >

> > You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

> >

> >

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

> >

> > I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

> >

> > Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

> >

> > I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in

utero because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the

stage for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she

has food sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a

normal way. Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

> >

> > Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health.

I think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

> >

> > Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

> >

> >

> > And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

> >

> > When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

> >

> > My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

> >

> > Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

> >

> > Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

> >

> > In Peace,

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

,

I just want to say that I have found your post informative and thought

provoking. I think that we do have a nutrition " dis-ease " . I personally knew a

Psychiatrist for a jail. I asked him how many hours he had in his training in

nutrition. He told us that out of all his schooling he had only had three days

where he went to a talk about nutrition. This is not the way they want to

" treat " people. I believe that their is an agenda.

On the other hand I think that my mother enjoys having doctors take care of

her.

I talked to a retired doctor recently. I asked her if she looked at a

persons nutritional aspect of their life before prescribing a drug. She told me

that the nutritional data was collected by the nurse. It was as if the medical

industry doesn't treat the whole person but has a narrow lens they look at

people through.

We are kept ignorant and we lose our power by giving it up to professionals

without question.

Thank you for your personal testimony of how you were able to over come a huge

obstacle in your own life. I think sharing our experiences is what this board

is about.

There are Subject headers at the beginning of a post. If you find you are

not getting anything from someone's post you don't have to read them.

Cosmic

[Guest guest]

I think the reason this question generates rancor is because it is so similar to

the distortion campaign we grew up with. In my case, my fada is NPD and I am the

pathologized child he wanted to annihilate...rather than face this and what she

married my waif nada told me it was all my fault and if I would just be this way

or that way, it would not be the way it is. To this day she believes this and

has distorted the situation so that *I* am the 'crazy' one in my family and

everyone else is sane (I'm liberal/gay/agnostic and they are all

conservative/christian/straight which just makes me stand out more)

So of course I'm going to react when someone says something similar to what I

was always told...'there is nothing really wrong here, it' YOU that is the crazy

one' etc.

>

> Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became so

divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

>

> You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review done

by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum come close

to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are needing to protect

our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong, read and see how folks

play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in favor of current

paradigms....

>

>

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

>

> I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be more

united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of sarcasm and

dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to criticize songster.

>

> Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I do

not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are wrong. I

want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the medications, and

when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my own misdiagnosis.. I

get angry. It would be only too easy to see a conspiracy, when I discover the

lack of common-sense tools for dealing with my own dis-ease. All I get told

when I say that I must wean because of the effects of medications on my

endocrine system... is " here, try this new drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double

what you are paying now to manage an ephemeral condition. " I too know my

condition is short lived, if I do the right foods, sleep hygiene, social

outlets, exercise and vitamins for my " condition. " The brain substrate is

hugely comprised of high quality fat. if we don't eat the right substrate, who

know how all that neurology can be impacted. And we now know we have a

gut-brain. How our brain works depends on our microflora in the gut and how

robustly we feed it. In the gut is our mental health, perhaps.

>

> I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in utero

because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the stage

for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably she has food

sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns in a normal way.

Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack of sleep.

>

> Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental health. I

think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep is a huge

issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and diabetes, but for

heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain disorder that, unlike

mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure progress by direct

observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

>

> Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too many

people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in the

brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on this

listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to cope

with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key in

preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

>

>

> And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

>

> When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I had

to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close friends of

mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate sleep (we take

inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the nation of the

sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is given

anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and hours

during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but found out by

experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail, not the disease.

His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a hospital that is

cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take his meds, but he

needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can change our hard-wiring

with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also given just the suggestion

that diet was important. When he realized that he needed to get real with

himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his religious faith in a whole

new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental God he was raised with, and

gave himself credit for the fact that he loved helping people. He is on

disability and they watch him pretty closely (are you taking your medications.

D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in meetings I attended with him. He

decided to use me as his checkin person while he weaned. ly I was scared,

and did my best to both be supportive and to make it clear that I would

advocate he get back on the prescribed drug regime... if I felt he was

jeopardizing his health. He has been suicidal in the past and has been on

anti-depressants for at least eight years. In that time, he also developed mania

(they told him he was bipolar and said in a misleading way.. that his

anti-depressant MUST have unmasked the depression. I am increasingly skeptical

of this analysis. Here is why.

>

> My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect that

the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were supposedly

treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the antipsychotic was

doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he followed doctor's

orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each night with a plan to get

up and get started on the things he felt would bring him passion and meaning.

Each morning he could hardly get out of bed. And the good docs also tell you on

these meds not to drink caffeine. Those that follow this regimen have

insufficient brain chemicals for motivation! (Dopamine receptors are

significantly blocked by even the new generation anti-psychotics).

>

> Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now), he

has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do. He has

been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways that are

huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the recommended 8

hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is himself. I always

knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in there, where he told me

he had a broken brain, and that is back.

>

> Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing so

well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and through

all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he just

smiles....

>

> In Peace,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Psychiatry saves lives (mine for instance.) Proper nutrition can save lives

(diabetes treatment, heart disease prevention, starvation etc)

There is no magic bullet!

But you do need the correct care for the correct problem. I do not for a

second believe that the majority of mental health problems in the U.S. can

be treated by nutrition. I also do not think for a second that talk therapy

can save the life of a child starving in Africa.

Did my nada have nutrition issues? Yes majorly!!! Could a dietcian have

helped her with that? HELL NO!!! She needed mental health help for food

addiction and BPD. It wasn't a lack of nutrition knowledge! It was a

personality disorder!!!!

> **

>

>

> I think the reason this question generates rancor is because it is so

> similar to the distortion campaign we grew up with. In my case, my fada is

> NPD and I am the pathologized child he wanted to annihilate...rather than

> face this and what she married my waif nada told me it was all my fault and

> if I would just be this way or that way, it would not be the way it is. To

> this day she believes this and has distorted the situation so that *I* am

> the 'crazy' one in my family and everyone else is sane (I'm

> liberal/gay/agnostic and they are all conservative/christian/straight which

> just makes me stand out more)

>

> So of course I'm going to react when someone says something similar to what

> I was always told...'there is nothing really wrong here, it' YOU that is the

> crazy one' etc.

>

>

>

> >

> > Folks I still find it a matter of concern that the conversation became

> so divisive on the issue that was brought up by sweetsoulmusic.

> >

> > You may wish to read the following commentaries on a recent book review

> done by Dr. Marcia Angell . Some of what I see folks saying on our forum

> come close to agreeing with each other and so it seems odd that we are

> needing to protect our points of view so stridently.. Perhaps I am wrong,

> read and see how folks play with fine points in their OWN " arguments " in

> favor of current paradigms....

> >

> >

>

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/aug/18/illusions-psychiatry-exchan\

ge/

> >

> > I think looking closely at the issues dividing us, will help us to be

> more united and supportive of one another's journeys. I detected a tad of

> sarcasm and dismissiveness on the parts of many of us who needed to

> criticize songster.

> >

> > Just my most humblest of opinions, for I have for a long time been in

> dialogue with people who disagree with me, just as I think songster has. I

> do not mean to judge or say that folks who believe in the medications are

> wrong. I want us all to realize that we are indeed being oversold on the

> medications, and when I read carefully, which I have for years now due to my

> own misdiagnosis.. I get angry. It would be only too easy to see a

> conspiracy, when I discover the lack of common-sense tools for dealing with

> my own dis-ease. All I get told when I say that I must wean because of the

> effects of medications on my endocrine system... is " here, try this new

> drug. Be a guinea pig and pay double what you are paying now to manage an

> ephemeral condition. " I too know my condition is short lived, if I do the

> right foods, sleep hygiene, social outlets, exercise and vitamins for my

> " condition. " The brain substrate is hugely comprised of high quality fat. if

> we don't eat the right substrate, who know how all that neurology can be

> impacted. And we now know we have a gut-brain. How our brain works depends

> on our microflora in the gut and how robustly we feed it. In the gut is our

> mental health, perhaps.

> >

> > I have almost no doubt that my nada's brain development was affected in

> utero because of famine inflicted her region of Russia. That helped set the

> stage for her BPD,Medications are NOT the answer to her problem. Probably

> she has food sensitivities and she really does not manage her sleep patterns

> in a normal way. Many illnesses are indeed triggered or exacerbated by lack

> of sleep.

> >

> > Let me stress that we NOT downplay the importance of sleep on mental

> health. I think we all have read good mainstream publications that say sleep

> is a huge issue for health conditions: not just depression, bipolar and

> diabetes, but for heart conditions. And for recovery from stroke (a brain

> disorder that, unlike mental disorders, we CAN see evidence of and measure

> progress by direct observation of the brain, if I am not mistaken.)

> >

> > Psychiatry is the newest kid on the block, and we genuinely DO have too

> many people diagnosed with mental illnesses, for whom the etiology is NOT in

> the brain. I can attest to this and am willing to share my whole story on

> this listserve. I may have an anxiety issue, related to the habits I used to

> cope with being raised by nada, but how I live... and eat and sleep are key

> in preventing the biochemistry from going (temporarily) amok.

> >

> >

> > And now a few thoughts particularly on depression:

> >

> > When it was said here, that people who have depression sleep too much, I

> had to say, wait, depression has a whole range of symptoms. Two close

> friends of mine had depressions they KNOW were brought on by inadequate

> sleep (we take inadequate sleep as a matter of course in our country, the

> nation of the sleep-deprived). I have a friend treated for depression who is

> given anti-pysychotics as pat of his medication cocktail. He slept hours and

> hours during the course of his treatment for " faulty biochemistry " , but

> found out by experimentation that it was largely because of the cocktail,

> not the disease. His last hospitalization he finally heard from staff at a

> hospital that is cutting edge for our area, that he needed to not JUST take

> his meds, but he needed to really look at his thinking (we now know we can

> change our hard-wiring with being grateful for our gifts).... he was also

> given just the suggestion that diet was important. When he realized that he

> needed to get real with himself and work on his attitude, he returned to his

> religious faith in a whole new way. He kicked out the punishing, judgmental

> God he was raised with, and gave himself credit for the fact that he loved

> helping people. He is on disability and they watch him pretty closely (are

> you taking your medications. D?) He used to sit there half-asleep in

> meetings I attended with him. He decided to use me as his checkin person

> while he weaned. ly I was scared, and did my best to both be supportive

> and to make it clear that I would advocate he get back on the prescribed

> drug regime... if I felt he was jeopardizing his health. He has been

> suicidal in the past and has been on anti-depressants for at least eight

> years. In that time, he also developed mania (they told him he was bipolar

> and said in a misleading way.. that his anti-depressant MUST have unmasked

> the depression. I am increasingly skeptical of this analysis. Here is why.

> >

> > My friend did some careful reading and listening, and began to suspect

> that the anti-depressants had triggered the bipolar that the docs were

> supposedly treating with antipsychotic. He came to realize that all the

> antipsychotic was doing was making him sleep some 12 hours a day. When he

> followed doctor's orders,taking his medications, he would go to bed each

> night with a plan to get up and get started on the things he felt would

> bring him passion and meaning. Each morning he could hardly get out of bed.

> And the good docs also tell you on these meds not to drink caffeine. Those

> that follow this regimen have insufficient brain chemicals for motivation!

> (Dopamine receptors are significantly blocked by even the new generation

> anti-psychotics).

> >

> > Short story: Since my friend has been medication-free (six months now),

> he has been able to follow through on what he needs to do and loves to do.

> He has been able to regain cognitive abilities and self-confidence in ways

> that are huge. No mania, either. And his sleep is more in line with the

> recommended 8 hours (excessive sleep contributes to dis-ease too). He is

> himself. I always knew there was an intelligent, humorous, wise person in

> there, where he told me he had a broken brain, and that is back.

> >

> > Irony of ironies, his case-worker would flip if she knew why he is doing

> so well! They keep saying, " , we have never seen you do so well, and

> through all these life changes! Whatever you are doing, keep it up! " And he

> just smiles....

> >

> > In Peace,

> >

> >

> >

> >