Key points from UTBM, last chapter

[Guest guest]

At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (bpdfamily.com)

a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter of

" Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to a

person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

Here are the points:

" Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

" The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding their

mothers

To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

Therapy can help the children of borderlines

Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

Children need to be mirrored and soothed

Healthy love is contagious

Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

*****

Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I love the one about children needing to be mirrored and soothed. After being in

one form of recovery or another for 20 years now I have become convinced that

this is truly all I *ever* needed, but for finding this group I would still be

searching for it. SO MUCH of 'recovery' tends toward shaming and admonitions to

'quit whining' and hurling religion at manifestations of trauma in an attempt to

get the person to shut up and quit making everyone uncomfortable. I have felt

pretty bereft at times...luckily for me someone handed me a Bob Earle tape when

I was very early in twelve step and I don't even know what my path might have

been had I not been exposed to his wisdom and struggle against the demagogues of

twelve step and his determination to link child abuse with substance abuse later

in life. I have not gotten that book yet because it is quite expensive but as

soon as I have some 'extra' cash I will get it (can't find it anywhere for less

than 30 bucks or so).

>

> At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (bpdfamily.com)

a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter of

" Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

>

> I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to a

person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

>

> Here are the points:

>

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

>

> Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

>

> Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

>

> Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

>

> " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

>

> Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

>

> Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

>

> We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

>

> Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

>

> To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

>

> May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

>

> Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

>

> Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

>

> Therapy can help the children of borderlines

>

> Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

>

> Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

>

> Children need to be mirrored and soothed

>

> Healthy love is contagious

>

> Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

>

> *****

>

> Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

>

> But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

This is great, thanks Annie. I still have my copy, but it's painful for me

to read - because it brings back those awful/joyful/strange moments of

suddenly " getting it. "

> **

>

>

>

> I love the one about children needing to be mirrored and soothed. After

> being in one form of recovery or another for 20 years now I have become

> convinced that this is truly all I *ever* needed, but for finding this group

> I would still be searching for it. SO MUCH of 'recovery' tends toward

> shaming and admonitions to 'quit whining' and hurling religion at

> manifestations of trauma in an attempt to get the person to shut up and quit

> making everyone uncomfortable. I have felt pretty bereft at times...luckily

> for me someone handed me a Bob Earle tape when I was very early in twelve

> step and I don't even know what my path might have been had I not been

> exposed to his wisdom and struggle against the demagogues of twelve step and

> his determination to link child abuse with substance abuse later in life. I

> have not gotten that book yet because it is quite expensive but as soon as I

> have some 'extra' cash I will get it (can't find it anywhere for less than

> 30 bucks or so).

>

>

> >

> > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (

> bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

> chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts

> so uncannily relevant to my own life.

> >

> > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

> to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> >

> > Here are the points:

> >

> > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

> Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> >

> > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> >

> > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real

> selves

> >

> > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> >

> > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> >

> > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

> to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process

> this, the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> >

> > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> >

> > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> >

> > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

> their mothers

> >

> > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

> intuition

> >

> > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> >

> > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> >

> > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> >

> > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> >

> > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> >

> > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> >

> > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> >

> > Healthy love is contagious

> >

> > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not

> downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> >

> > *****

> >

> > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

> I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

> smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

> consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

> physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in

> order to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she

> believed that I'd disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or

> thwarted her in some way.) The waiting and planning make the conscious,

> malicious intent obvious.

> >

> > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

> underlined YES after each one.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

VERY powerful stuff--I have this book on order from my library, can't wait to

read it (though I know it will be painful).

these 3 things hit home with me as to where I am in my process right now:

-Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

-Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding their

mothers

-Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

-Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

RE: " Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing--so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive "

This is my read on my nada's behavior; but I am not altogether certain as to the

accuracy: when nada was activated, she regressed into a vindictive personality

intent on getting her pound of flesh. Nothing else could take the place of

getting even. It wasn't until her 'victim' was sufficiently cowed did she back

off. She never backed down. I do not believe any of this was pre-planned. But

once she felt threatened, her rationality and 'mother love' went out the window.

Sometimes these sessions of hatred/control would go on for months or even years.

I have come to believe she really isn't aware of what she is doing. How she can

be so blind to her cruelty, I cannot answer. It's like her ability to feel

empathy, or her awareness of how she affects others is disabled.

>

> At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (bpdfamily.com)

a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter of

" Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

>

> I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to a

person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

>

> Here are the points:

>

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

>

> Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

>

> Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

>

> Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

>

> " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

>

> Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

>

> Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

>

> We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

>

> Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

>

> To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

>

> May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

>

> Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

>

> Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

>

> Therapy can help the children of borderlines

>

> Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

>

> Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

>

> Children need to be mirrored and soothed

>

> Healthy love is contagious

>

> Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

>

> *****

>

> Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

>

> But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing this Annie. I will put it on my list of things to read I

think.

The list hit home with me too.

This one is the one that I struggle with alot: RE: " Borderline mothers can't see

what they are doing--so they are not downright consciously evil but they are

profoundly destructive "

Most of me thinks that my nada can't see the impact of what she is doing. But

sometimes she seems so vindictive about things, its hard to believe that she

can't see that she is deliberately causing pain. I think she can see that, but

she doesn't see it as 'morally' wrong because to her, the person she is out to

get has 'already caused her serious harm/been evil to her.'

If I ever try to say, subtly, well maybe that would be really hurtful to X if

you did that to him, she gets ANGRY. 'Why would you say that? He's been terrible

and evil to me? So he deserves what's coming, right??!!!'

I wish we had the answer to this question anyway - it would make things easier

to deal with I reckon...

Hey ho,

Sara

> >

> > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> >

> > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to

a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> >

> > Here are the points:

> >

> > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> >

> > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> >

> > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> >

> > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> >

> > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> >

> > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> >

> > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> >

> > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> >

> > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> >

> > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> >

> > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> >

> > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> >

> > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> >

> > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> >

> > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> >

> > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> >

> > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> >

> > Healthy love is contagious

> >

> > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> >

> > *****

> >

> > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> >

> > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

yes, yes, yes, 'mirrored and soothed', the essence of my recovery also, thanks

for the info about the book (what is the name of it, as i would like to save

up some for it too).. and the tapes, still available? bob earle, never heard

of him but glad to make his acqaintance.. i coulnd't agree with this post any

more than if i had said it for myself. thanks so much for sharing. love to all,

ann

Subject: Re: Key points from " UTBM " , last chapter

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Friday, August 12, 2011, 2:41 PM

Â

I love the one about children needing to be mirrored and soothed. After being in

one form of recovery or another for 20 years now I have become convinced that

this is truly all I *ever* needed, but for finding this group I would still be

searching for it. SO MUCH of 'recovery' tends toward shaming and admonitions to

'quit whining' and hurling religion at manifestations of trauma in an attempt to

get the person to shut up and quit making everyone uncomfortable. I have felt

pretty bereft at times...luckily for me someone handed me a Bob Earle tape when

I was very early in twelve step and I don't even know what my path might have

been had I not been exposed to his wisdom and struggle against the demagogues of

twelve step and his determination to link child abuse with substance abuse later

in life. I have not gotten that book yet because it is quite expensive but as

soon as I have some 'extra' cash I will get it (can't find it anywhere for less

than 30 bucks

or so).

>

> At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (bpdfamily.com)

a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter of

" Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

>

> I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to a

person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

>

> Here are the points:

>

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

>

> Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

>

> Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

>

> Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

>

> " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

>

> Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

>

> Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

>

> We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

>

> Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

>

> To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

>

> May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

>

> Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

>

> Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

>

> Therapy can help the children of borderlines

>

> Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

>

> Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

>

> Children need to be mirrored and soothed

>

> Healthy love is contagious

>

> Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

>

> *****

>

> Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order to

get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

>

> But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I do have this book! I probably went through it only 2 times because it is such

a painful read. I went through it and underlined everything that sounded like my

nada or my experience with my nada. My nadas a Witch by far with waif traits.

Annie, I think I agree with your feeling about the last quote. I have a hard

time believing that my nada was unaware that she was inflicting pain. Indeed, I

think she ENJOYED causing my sister and I pain and discomfort and actively did

so. I think some BPs consciously feed off the torment they cause their children.

I too am wary of that statement too.

- Cvidz

>

> At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents (bpdfamily.com)

a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter of

" Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

>

> I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to a

person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

>

> Here are the points:

>

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

>

> Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

>

> Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

>

> Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

>

> " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

>

> Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

>

> Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

>

> We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

>

> Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

>

> To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

>

> May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

>

> Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

>

> Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

>

> Therapy can help the children of borderlines

>

> Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

>

> Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

>

> Children need to be mirrored and soothed

>

> Healthy love is contagious

>

> Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

>

> *****

>

> Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

>

> But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Sara,

I agree with you RE that last statement in the Chapter 13 list of key points, my

nada seems (or seemed, before the Alzheimers set in) to consciously and

deliberately set about " getting back " at those she felt deserved it, as I

mentioned in the original post.

I personally think its due to my nada having a lot of narcissistic pd and

perhaps even antisocial pd traits, because that desire for revenge has to do

with a sense of entitlement.

That's an npd trait, the sense of " entitlement " : they feel *entitled* to both

special treatment, and they feel entitled to inflict punishment on those who

have " done something against " them. To the npd, that's just fair; that's

justice. And it doesn't matter if the wrongness is real or not, its all in the

eyes of the person with npd/aspd.

So, like you, I have qualifiers for the last key point in the list, RE my own

mother's behaviors.

-Annie

> > >

> > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > >

> > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > >

> > > Here are the points:

> > >

> > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > >

> > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> > >

> > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > >

> > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > >

> > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > >

> > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > >

> > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> > >

> > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> > >

> > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > >

> > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > >

> > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > >

> > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > >

> > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > >

> > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > >

> > > Healthy love is contagious

> > >

> > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > >

> > > *****

> > >

> > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > >

> > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sara,

You summed up my nada perfectly, too.

> > >

> > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > >

> > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > >

> > > Here are the points:

> > >

> > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > >

> > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> > >

> > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > >

> > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > >

> > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > >

> > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > >

> > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> > >

> > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> > >

> > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > >

> > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > >

> > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > >

> > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > >

> > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > >

> > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > >

> > > Healthy love is contagious

> > >

> > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > >

> > > *****

> > >

> > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > >

> > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I was terrified in therapy to discover I had no identity, because I was so

hyper-focused on what mother wanted me to be, and was either rebelling or

complying. However, before therapy, I had never considered myself to be a

person separate from my mother, an individual with unique preferences and needs.

In therapy, the question was always, " who am I? " and " Who is my mother? " It

took years in therapy for me to resolve my own identity apart from my mother.

Nether of us had identities, we were both living a non-reality, a fantasy, a

fairy tail. Nothing was real. It was overwhelming for me to realize this in

therapy and I felt like I was going to literally fall apart and die. It took me

years in therapy to find myself, my identity, my true individual. Really, that

was only the start, because then I had to (and am still doing) grow up and

develop the self that I achieved in therapy. It's like I finally got the

opportunity to grow up and be an adult. I think I am almost there; almost an

adult. I am 42.

> > > >

> > > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > > >

> > > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned

it to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > > >

> > > > Here are the points:

> > > >

> > > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend

the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real

selves

> > > >

> > > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > > >

> > > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > > >

> > > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > > >

> > > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > > >

> > > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without

understanding their mothers

> > > >

> > > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring

one's intuition

> > > >

> > > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > > >

> > > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > > >

> > > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > > >

> > > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > > >

> > > > Healthy love is contagious

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not

downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > > >

> > > > *****

> > > >

> > > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last

statement. I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps

even a smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was

QUITE consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > > >

> > > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you ever have a chance to listen to his talks, he is amazing. he is

hysterical, for one, and will have you rolling. Two he struggled with IV drug

addiction and alcoholism, he went through recovery back in the day when it was

more hardcore, and his struggles to come to terms with his feelings, a HUGE

part of his focus, and how it all lead him to having to revisit his abusive

childhood, something he did not even remember for most of his first decade of

recovery if not more. He discovered he had been beaten as a child by his mother,

so much so that he missed so much time in his first year of school he was not

even given a grade. It is a tough story but every talk of his I have found is

hysterical because he has such a great sense of humor, he talks at al anon

functions too. He talks about going through the steps and doing everything he

was told to do and being assured it was going to be the key to a sane life and

then after he divorced his fifth or sixth wife (all in recovery), having to take

a good look at what he was taught and what was good and bad about it. He has

always been completely unafraid to tell it like it is and has joked about the

" AA traditionalists " having hit men waiting at the airport when he arrives to

give speeches. Here is a link to one of his talks

http://www.healtalk.com/public/38.shtml

I haven't listened to that particular one but he makes more sense to me than

anyone I've heard of in twelve step, I guess because he is so brutaly honest.

> >

> > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter

of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

> >

> > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to

a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> >

> > Here are the points:

> >

> > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> >

> > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> >

> > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> >

> > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> >

> > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> >

> > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> >

> > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> >

> > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> >

> > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> >

> > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> >

> > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> >

> > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> >

> > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> >

> > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> >

> > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> >

> > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> >

> > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> >

> > Healthy love is contagious

> >

> > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> >

> > *****

> >

> > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order to

get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> >

> > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know, since I'm waiting a while to find a new therapist, and need to

continue making progress, I think I have finally been enticed to go get this

book.

Lately, I have been trying not to focus too much on my nada. But lately, I've

been feeling some sadness about the situation again. And, well, it's weird, but

I sort of wonder what;s going on with my nada. My nada is high enough

functioning, and I feel strong enough, that I could resume LC with her. Of

course, I would set up iron fortress boundaries. But I refuse to go back to even

limited contact without the reinforcement of my first boundary I set, which she

needs to acknowledge what happened at Christmas. I know that will never happen.

And I know the whole thing about it not really being about me, etc., but she

hurt me, and I will not allow her back in my life in any way without some kind

of acknowledgement. If I went LC with her from my NC without reinforcing my

boundary that I set, then I am reinforcing her bad behavior.

I guess I feel a little sad because she hasn't tried to contact me at all. Like

after all that, her daughter cuts her off and she doesn't even care. It's just

like at Christmas when she ranted about not being able to visit her grandkids,

even though I, her daughter who she rarely gets to see, was sitting right in

front of her and she didn't give a shit about visiting with me.

I don't know why but it feels like the wound has been reopened and I'm not sure

why. Maybe I'm getting closer to realizing the fact that I never had a mother

just a monster. I remember thinking once that there is that song " Momma said

there'd be days like this " and I always hated it because my " momma " had no

sayings and she never taught me anything. I remember wracking my brain for

something she had taught me (that wasn't some form of abuse) and I couldn't.

Even though I wanted to learn, she would never teach me, she didn't teach me

anything about cooking, and I was so advanced in school, I had to help HER with

her college homework, when I was in middle school and high school.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about or have any insight on what I'm feeling?

I've been NC since January, right after my return home from the awful $700 visit

to see her. (And yes, it still bugs me that I spent so much money to visit her

and she treated me that way.)

> >

> > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> >

> > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it to

a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> >

> > Here are the points:

> >

> > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> >

> > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> >

> > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> >

> > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> >

> > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> >

> > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles to

process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this, the

bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> >

> > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> >

> > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> >

> > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> >

> > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> >

> > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> >

> > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> >

> > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> >

> > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> >

> > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> >

> > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> >

> > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> >

> > Healthy love is contagious

> >

> > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> >

> > *****

> >

> > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement. I

think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> >

> > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I too find that hard to believe.

If they can't see what they are doing, how do they know just what to say to

cause the most destruction. How do they know when they have hit the target, and

you see that self-satisfied smirk on their face that reveals they feel

successful at having hurt you in a vulnerable place. I think they have massive

suppressed pain, project that pain onto whomever is convenient (and children are

captive to this) and then they feel *justified* at hurting us 'back' because

they have projected the pain from unprocessed trauma onto us. They HAVE to

project that stuff on someone, otherwise they might explode. The projection

part, the lack of processing, that stuff is where the mental illness lies, but

the digs and destructive behavior hit their target because the aim is deliberate

and calculated.

> > >

> > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > >

> > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > >

> > > Here are the points:

> > >

> > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > >

> > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> > >

> > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > >

> > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > >

> > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > >

> > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > >

> > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> > >

> > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> > >

> > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > >

> > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > >

> > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > >

> > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > >

> > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > >

> > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > >

> > > Healthy love is contagious

> > >

> > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > >

> > > *****

> > >

> > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > >

> > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I tend to lean toward this theory myself.

Targeting specific individuals for abuse, and doing so in a chronic way, must be

deliberate. Once is an " oops " and likely to be unintentional; a repetitive

pattern of behaviors towards a specific person is not accidental or random. How

can that NOT be deliberate?

My own personal theory is that the underlying core or ground zero of the Cluster

B pds is profound narcissism:

" Nobody else's needs or feelings matter, only mine. I must soothe myself in any

way possible, even if that means throwing you under the bus, or feeding off you,

or using your own decency and compassion to manipulate/con you, or beating the

crap out of you emotionally or physically to engender abject fear of me...

Anything it takes is OK, as long as MY needs are being met. "

Its. All. About. ME.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > > >

> > > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned

it to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > > >

> > > > Here are the points:

> > > >

> > > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend

the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real

selves

> > > >

> > > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > > >

> > > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > > >

> > > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > > >

> > > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > > >

> > > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without

understanding their mothers

> > > >

> > > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring

one's intuition

> > > >

> > > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > > >

> > > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > > >

> > > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > > >

> > > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > > >

> > > > Healthy love is contagious

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not

downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > > >

> > > > *****

> > > >

> > > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last

statement. I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps

even a smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was

QUITE consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > > >

> > > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

here is a much better quality recording, sorry that one on that link is so bad,

I didn't listen to it before I posted it.

this one is much clearer

http://www.xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file & id=773

> > >

> > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final chapter

of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so uncannily

relevant to my own life.

> > >

> > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > >

> > > Here are the points:

> > >

> > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > >

> > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> > >

> > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > >

> > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > >

> > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > >

> > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > >

> > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> > >

> > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> > >

> > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > >

> > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > >

> > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > >

> > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > >

> > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > >

> > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > >

> > > Healthy love is contagious

> > >

> > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not

downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > >

> > > *****

> > >

> > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order to

get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > >

> > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Annie, even if they don't go about " getting even " themselves, they seem to take

delight in " karma " coming back on someone they feel has wronged them. I will

NEVER, forget the look on my nada's face this one time.

One of the most stressful days of my life, my dad had half his left lung removed

and due to extenuating circumstances, his current wife had not made it to the

hospital before he was wheeled back for surgery. I was upset, not because of his

wife, but wife's sister ( a HUGE drama queen that loves any reason to wring her

hands and moan " what shall we do!? " ) Whom I promptly told to stay out of my

dad's room and that I would handle it and oh yeah, SHUT UP!!! My Dad doesn't

need all this drama!

My nada knows this woman and knows how she can be, but of course MY aggravation

and MY fear and worry about my dad are of NO concern to nada. Instead it is all

about HER and her DELIGHT that his wife wasn't there when he was taken to

surgery...because, and I quote...

" it serves him right, because he had stepped out for a cigarette when I was

taken back for MY surgery and wasn't there for ME!!! " They had only been

divorced for over a decade and her surgery was for gal bladder or fibroid tumors

(non cancerouse) over twenty effing years ago!

I'm telling you...nobody can hold a grudge like a nada.

Carla

>

> Hi Sara,

>

> I agree with you RE that last statement in the Chapter 13 list of key points,

my nada seems (or seemed, before the Alzheimers set in) to consciously and

deliberately set about " getting back " at those she felt deserved it, as I

mentioned in the original post.

>

> I personally think its due to my nada having a lot of narcissistic pd and

perhaps even antisocial pd traits, because that desire for revenge has to do

with a sense of entitlement.

>

> That's an npd trait, the sense of " entitlement " : they feel *entitled* to both

special treatment, and they feel entitled to inflict punishment on those who

have " done something against " them. To the npd, that's just fair; that's

justice. And it doesn't matter if the wrongness is real or not, its all in the

eyes of the person with npd/aspd.

>

> So, like you, I have qualifiers for the last key point in the list, RE my own

mother's behaviors.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Sadly, I keep this book on my nightstand. I think it's a fabulous resource, at

the very least, for validation. It's like this group - it's a great reminder

that we're not alone, that we're not crazy, and that it really isn't about us. I

think everyone with a BPD mom should own a copy and read it over and over again!

> > >

> > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > >

> > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned it

to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > >

> > > Here are the points:

> > >

> > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the

Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > >

> > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real selves

> > >

> > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > >

> > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > >

> > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > >

> > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > >

> > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without understanding

their mothers

> > >

> > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring one's

intuition

> > >

> > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > >

> > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > >

> > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > >

> > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > >

> > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > >

> > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > >

> > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > >

> > > Healthy love is contagious

> > >

> > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not downright

consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > >

> > > *****

> > >

> > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last statement.

I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps even a

smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was QUITE

consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > >

> > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, my nada's ability to wait, bide her time in order to inflict a perfect type

of revenge in kind, I found extremely disturbing and creepy. The long-term

grudge she held against her own older sister is another instance of that; nada

loved reporting to me , dad and Sister any time her older sister or her older

sister's husband or kids were having some kind of a problem, some illness or

disappointment or other.

The eagerness and glee with which the bad news was dispensed... nada apparently

got off on being the bearer of bad tidings about her older sister, and sometimes

just as eager to share bad news affecting her supposedly beloved younger sister

as well. Nada just ate up that delicious drama, that anguish that other people

were enduring like ice cream. Yep.

The way the bpd mind thinks just seems alien / not quite human to me.

-Annie

> >

> > Hi Sara,

> >

> > I agree with you RE that last statement in the Chapter 13 list of key

points, my nada seems (or seemed, before the Alzheimers set in) to consciously

and deliberately set about " getting back " at those she felt deserved it, as I

mentioned in the original post.

> >

> > I personally think its due to my nada having a lot of narcissistic pd and

perhaps even antisocial pd traits, because that desire for revenge has to do

with a sense of entitlement.

> >

> > That's an npd trait, the sense of " entitlement " : they feel *entitled* to

both special treatment, and they feel entitled to inflict punishment on those

who have " done something against " them. To the npd, that's just fair; that's

justice. And it doesn't matter if the wrongness is real or not, its all in the

eyes of the person with npd/aspd.

> >

> > So, like you, I have qualifiers for the last key point in the list, RE my

own mother's behaviors.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

,

That is wonderful! Don't feel bad, at 52 I am still in the process and didn't

even identify the problem until all that recently. Have known something was up

since I was 40 or so,but by all accounts you are way ahead of me!

> > > > >

> > > > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > > > >

> > > > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned

it to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are the points:

> > > > >

> > > > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend

the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > > > >

> > > > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real

selves

> > > > >

> > > > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > > > >

> > > > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > > > >

> > > > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain

struggles to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to

process this, the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > > > >

> > > > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > > > >

> > > > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > > > >

> > > > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without

understanding their mothers

> > > > >

> > > > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring

one's intuition

> > > > >

> > > > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > > > >

> > > > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > > > >

> > > > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > > > >

> > > > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > > > >

> > > > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > > > >

> > > > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > > > >

> > > > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > > > >

> > > > > Healthy love is contagious

> > > > >

> > > > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing…so they are not

downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > > > >

> > > > > *****

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last

statement. I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps

even a smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was

QUITE consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > > > >

> > > > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a

big underlined YES after each one.

> > > > >

> > > > > -Annie

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hello All,

Few quick response to various bits and pieces.

This is a very interesting thread by the way!

(((Echobabe))), sorry to hear your nada sounds similar to mine, validating for

me to hear that, but unpleasant for you no doubt. I completely get the idea of

nada regressing to a vindictive personality – and the sort of `disabling' of the

human function that enables empathy. With mine, it's like she knows she's being

super cruel, but that it is somehow completely fine in her particular

circumstances, although it wouldn't be okay in general (i.e. if the act in

question was done against her it would be terrible/evil/unjust...but then she

never does anything wrong...so an act against her would be unjustified, but her

vindictiveness is justified? It's a head twist to me!!)

(((Annie))), interesting what you said about the narcissistic side of things. I

always thought my nada had NPD as I hadn't heard of BPD and my therapist brought

my attention to the latter and I sort of forgot about the NPD thing. Might look

into it again when I can muster the energy for more PD learning...

((())), just wanted to say, it sounds like you are doing great! I also (7

months into therapy) feel like I finally have the opportunity to grow up and be

an adult. So weird to realise that I sort of didn't grow up properly the first

time round, and that I still need to do so...

Wishing you all well!

Sara

> > > >

> > > > At another support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

(bpdfamily.com) a poster (bethanny) shared the key points from the final

chapter of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " and I find these concepts so

uncannily relevant to my own life.

> > > >

> > > > I must buy another copy of that book; I used to have a copy but loaned

it to a person who never gave me my book back. Oh well.

> > > >

> > > > Here are the points:

> > > >

> > > > " Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend

the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationship " by Ann Lawson

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 13 -- Living Backwards

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines enter therapy in midlife to free their real

selves

> > > >

> > > > Some borderline mothers enter therapy for sake of their children

> > > >

> > > > " The Good Mother " is a fleeting ego state

> > > >

> > > > Compassion and brutality can coexist in the same person, brain struggles

to process (note: I'm not clear on whose brain is struggling to process this,

the bpd mother's brain or her child's brain.)

> > > >

> > > > Tolerating inappropriate behavior is self betrayal

> > > >

> > > > We fear the person who loves us, we feel pity AND fear

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines can't understand themselves without

understanding their mothers

> > > >

> > > > To idealize an abusive parent is dangerous to self, one is ignoring

one's intuition

> > > >

> > > > May spend entire lives consumed by her neediness

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother supports regressive behavior in child

> > > >

> > > > Children have long term difficulties with intimate relationships

> > > >

> > > > Therapy can help the children of borderlines

> > > >

> > > > Children of borderlines must work through their feelings of rage

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mother leaves father and children torn in loyalty

> > > >

> > > > Children need to be mirrored and soothed

> > > >

> > > > Healthy love is contagious

> > > >

> > > > Borderline mothers can't see what they are doing so they are not

downright consciously evil but they are profoundly destructive

> > > >

> > > > *****

> > > >

> > > > Now, RE my own mother's case, I tend to disagree with the last

statement. I think my own mother has a lot of narcissistic traits and perhaps

even a smattering of aspd traits and I think that in some instances she was

QUITE consciously and intentionally trying to inflict pain: emotional pain and

physical pain. This is the most obvious when she would bide her time in order

to get revenge, get " back at " someone (me), in kind. (When she believed that I'd

disrespected her or given her narcissistic injury, or thwarted her in some way.)

The waiting and planning make the conscious, malicious intent obvious.

> > > >

> > > > But for the rest of the statements RE this chapter, I would write a big

underlined YES after each one.

> > > >

> > > > -Annie

> > > >

> > >

> >

>