Next Question... What to say when they are raging??

[Guest guest]

Forgive me if I am being too rudimentary for you all, I gather from what I

am reading you are mostly further along the path than me.

My Nada rages on a regular basis. I am used to that. And I also figured out

a long time ago that it was abnormal behavior … etc, etc

My next question regards what to do with it? All I want when she starts for

her SHUT UP!!!

Her rants and raves make no sense and are based in crazy land. I don’t try

to “help her see”. I am thankfully beyond that.

Unfortunately, WHATEVER response you have brings on more rage.

Agree to shut her up, .more rage. Apologize to shut her up, … more rage

(and a 20 min lecture on just where you went wrong). Placate her to shut her

up . Only comes up with ½ hour of evidence in crazy land as to why you are

such a bad person etc, etc etc.

Nothing will shut this woman up when she feels like raging (which is quite a

lot).

Any ideas? I cant listen to much more

(PS.. I live here, not for too much longer I hope but I moved in when she

took the heart attack to help, what a mess!)

M-

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of Manning

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 8:40 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: RE: Why?

Did you grow up under my bed?

All I heard all my life was what I burden I was.

She used to count down on all my birthdays.. " 6 more years till' you are 18

and I am FREE " etc.

One of the hardest parts of this for me is that NO MATTER WHAT I DO FOR HER

IT IS NOT ENOUGH!!!

I have waited on her hand and foot when she took the heart attack and I

still get BITCHED at for leaving a spot of water on the counter..

And I don't mean a little annoyance. I mean off the hook " JESUS, MARY, and

JOSHEPH's with the inevitable following SLAM!!! "

Thank goodness for this group. you have all given me much insight that no

alanon / alateen group has ever given to me.

Thank you!

M-

From: WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Katrina

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 7:57 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

<mailto:WTOAdultChildren1%40yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Re: Why?

This is just my take on the matter. I think they feel hostile

and angry (at least in part) because they view the world as a

very threatening place. Things that you and I regard as normal

feel like threats and attacks to them. In addition to feeling

attacked, they take things way out of proportion and place huge

amounts of importance on things that have no real importance.

For example, my nada seems to feel like anyone who doesn't agree

with her opinions is actively attacking her. In one instance she

asked me if I thought the blue or the green rug at the store

would look better in her living room. The one I chose wasn't the

one she preferred. To her, my failure to have the same

preference was like me saying that she was wrong and I was right

and that was an attack on her. Because she felt attacked, she

got angry with me and pitched a fit once we were out of the

store.

I find that it helps to think of them as emotionally like

toddlers. You've probably seen how two and three-year-olds react

to not getting their way about even minor things? That's how

nadas behave. Their emotions run out of control. They can't feel

mildly annoyed or upset. Their feelings are either on or off.

All of this comes back to their inability to regulate their

emotions.

I think some of them also feel like we're obstacles to them

getting what they want and that can contribute to their

hostility too. It isn't uncommon for them to feel that having a

baby then a growing child to take care of crimped their style

and interfered with their lives. They expect us to feel like we

owe them for raising us and do whatever they want even when

we're adults. The fact that we don't adds to their angry and

hostile feelings.

At 07:37 PM 03/30/2012 Manning wrote:

>A question that I keep asking myself is WHY!!!

>

>Why are NADAs so hostile?

>

>Mine has a favorite. " JESUS, MARY, and JOSHEPH!!! " screamed at

>least 36

>times a day.

>

>I have been hearing that, and a slam, for 45 years!

>

>What about BPD specifically makes them so angry and hostile?

>

>

>

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Welcome to the war. Rages are a regular part of life with Nada for many

of us. Don t ever worry about being too rudimentary. We all start with

being overwhelmed, and learn, in time to deal with it.

Yet you have cut to the core, and the answer, without realizing it.

Permit me to point you back to your own words and insights.

You said

" Unfortunately, WHATEVER response you have brings on more rage. " That

is so very true of the BP. For a lot of reasons their responses to

normal human interaction spiral downward into madness of one sort or

another.

So what can I , as a KO, do about it? Simple game, simple rules. If

you play you lose. Every time. Therefore, you set a boundary, and you,

as the only adult in the situation ( you do realize that? You are the

adult, your mom, nada, is the emotional out of control 3 year old), you

must always be the one to enforce that boundary.

If it were a real 3 year old, every time they pull the cat s tail, they

get scratched, and set in the corner. For a Nada, it might be

something like " Mom, I am not going to sit and listen to you rage

anymore. Not ever again. So if you start it, I will warn you one time.

If it contintues, I will leave. If I have to I will stay with a friend

until you decide to act rationally. I will not talk to you on the phone,

or be in the room with you, or if needed, the house with you, as long as

you are raging. If you need something from me and are still raging, you

are just out of luck. I will not help you or be around you in any way

while you are acting that way. This applies every time you do this, and

for the rest of your life. If you act like a sane , normal, adult, I

ll come around.

I will not argue with you, or try to calm you down, or try to placate

you. I will warn you , then leave.

She will not like this. She will not respecd it. Just like the 3 year

old she is, she will test you, repeatedly.

You have 2 choices. Enforce it and be strong, and refuse to play. Or,

let her dictate the terms and lose, every time.

It is sad that we must treat our adult parent as a child, but that is

how it is. You cannot change her. You can build a fence around your self

and put up a sign, No Crazy Allowed.

Good luck!

Doug

> >A question that I keep asking myself is WHY!!!

> >

> >Why are NADAs so hostile?

> >

> >Mine has a favorite. " JESUS, MARY, and JOSHEPH!!! " screamed at

> >least 36

> >times a day.

> >

> >I have been hearing that, and a slam, for 45 years!

> >

> >What about BPD specifically makes them so angry and hostile?

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

> Katrina

>

>

[Guest guest]

Something I learned from a book called " How to Deal With Emotionally

Explosive People " by Albert Bernstein on this topic. I tried it on my Nada

and it actually worked, which is no guarantee it will work for you but give

it a shot.

According to Bernstein, someone who is raging is building up a rage spiral

by constantly rehearsing in their head how wrong you are and how right they

are to be mad at you. The only way to interrupt this ongoing spiral is to

break them out of it by forcing them to engage their thinking mind instead

of their feeling mind. You do this by ASKING QUESTIONS that require thought

to answer. Now you have to ask them in a non-confrontational way, but the

EXACT question you ask is unimportant. Just that it be something they

have to stop and think to come up with an answer to.

The question Bernstein suggests using is " What do you want me to do? " ---

but be careful of the inflection. You can't say " Well, what do you want ME

to do about it?? " in a really nasty way, or it won't make them think. You

are trying to force the rager to THINK. So calmly and quietly ask, " What

would you like me to do? " [about whatever you're raging about.] Again,

you're not actually interested in the answer -- you're interested in

breaking the rage spiral. So ASK QUESTIONS, and keep asking, until their

momentum is utterly broken.

As I said, I tried this on my mom when she started to fly off at me over

something trivial, but the question I used was -- " Mom, what are you afraid

of? You sound scared to me -- what's wrong? " That brought her to a halt

as she tried to figure out an answer to the question. Then she tried to

start raging again, and I just asked her again " What are you afraid of? Why

are you scared? " The second time disrupted her momentum completely and the

rage just kind of evaporated. I never did get any kind of answer from her

-- but that WASN'T THE POINT.

So my advice would be to try this. Don't apologize or explain -- ASK

QUESTIONS. Calm, straightforward questions that require thought to

answer. Break the rage spiral, kill the momentum, and keep on killing it

until it dies completely. Remember not to throw rage or fear back at the

rager - that just feeds the spiral. Keep your cool and make them think.

Good luck with it. If you try it, I'd love to hear about any results you

get, positive or negative.

-- Jen

> **

>

>

>

>

>

> Welcome to the war. Rages are a regular part of life with Nada for many

> of us. Don t ever worry about being too rudimentary. We all start with

> being overwhelmed, and learn, in time to deal with it.

>

> Yet you have cut to the core, and the answer, without realizing it.

> Permit me to point you back to your own words and insights.

>

> You said

>

> " Unfortunately, WHATEVER response you have brings on more rage. " That

> is so very true of the BP. For a lot of reasons their responses to

> normal human interaction spiral downward into madness of one sort or

> another.

>

> So what can I , as a KO, do about it? Simple game, simple rules. If

> you play you lose. Every time. Therefore, you set a boundary, and you,

> as the only adult in the situation ( you do realize that? You are the

> adult, your mom, nada, is the emotional out of control 3 year old), you

> must always be the one to enforce that boundary.

>

> If it were a real 3 year old, every time they pull the cat s tail, they

> get scratched, and set in the corner. For a Nada, it might be

> something like " Mom, I am not going to sit and listen to you rage

> anymore. Not ever again. So if you start it, I will warn you one time.

> If it contintues, I will leave. If I have to I will stay with a friend

> until you decide to act rationally. I will not talk to you on the phone,

> or be in the room with you, or if needed, the house with you, as long as

> you are raging. If you need something from me and are still raging, you

> are just out of luck. I will not help you or be around you in any way

> while you are acting that way. This applies every time you do this, and

> for the rest of your life. If you act like a sane , normal, adult, I

> ll come around.

>

> I will not argue with you, or try to calm you down, or try to placate

> you. I will warn you , then leave.

>

> She will not like this. She will not respecd it. Just like the 3 year

> old she is, she will test you, repeatedly.

>

> You have 2 choices. Enforce it and be strong, and refuse to play. Or,

> let her dictate the terms and lose, every time.

>

> It is sad that we must treat our adult parent as a child, but that is

> how it is. You cannot change her. You can build a fence around your self

> and put up a sign, No Crazy Allowed.

>

> Good luck!

>

> Doug

>

>

> > >A question that I keep asking myself is WHY!!!

> > >

> > >Why are NADAs so hostile?

> > >

> > >Mine has a favorite. " JESUS, MARY, and JOSHEPH!!! " screamed at

> > >least 36

> > >times a day.

> > >

> > >I have been hearing that, and a slam, for 45 years!

> > >

> > >What about BPD specifically makes them so angry and hostile?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Wow -- that sounds very workable. From what I have read about the BP, this

is how it works inside the person.

And I have been reading the recent posts from various threads about the

raging and outwardly emotionally abusive parents, but what about the

" waif " / " hermit " types who withdraw typically?

The withdrawal does not force a confrontation (normally -- unless you are

the child rescuing the retreating parent), but I think that the internal

feeling process is a very similar " spiral. "

So -- would a similar approach work? Asking questions to break the spiral

that fuels the withdrawal?

Thanks -- Dana

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Hawthorne wrote:

> Something I learned from a book called " How to Deal With Emotionally

> Explosive People " by Albert Bernstein on this topic. I tried it on my Nada

> and it actually worked, which is no guarantee it will work for you but give

> it a shot.

>

> According to Bernstein, someone who is raging is building up a rage spiral

> by constantly rehearsing in their head how wrong you are and how right they

> are to be mad at you. The only way to interrupt this ongoing spiral is to

> break them out of it by forcing them to engage their thinking mind instead

> of their feeling mind. You do this by ASKING QUESTIONS that require thought

> to answer. Now you have to ask them in a non-confrontational way, but the

> EXACT question you ask is unimportant. Just that it be something they

> have to stop and think to come up with an answer to.

>

> The question Bernstein suggests using is " What do you want me to do? " ---

> but be careful of the inflection. You can't say " Well, what do you want ME

> to do about it?? " in a really nasty way, or it won't make them think. You

> are trying to force the rager to THINK. So calmly and quietly ask, " What

> would you like me to do? " [about whatever you're raging about.] Again,

> you're not actually interested in the answer -- you're interested in

> breaking the rage spiral. So ASK QUESTIONS, and keep asking, until their

> momentum is utterly broken.

>

> As I said, I tried this on my mom when she started to fly off at me over

> something trivial, but the question I used was -- " Mom, what are you afraid

> of? You sound scared to me -- what's wrong? " That brought her to a halt

> as she tried to figure out an answer to the question. Then she tried to

> start raging again, and I just asked her again " What are you afraid of? Why

> are you scared? " The second time disrupted her momentum completely and the

> rage just kind of evaporated. I never did get any kind of answer from her

> -- but that WASN'T THE POINT.

>

> So my advice would be to try this. Don't apologize or explain -- ASK

> QUESTIONS. Calm, straightforward questions that require thought to

> answer. Break the rage spiral, kill the momentum, and keep on killing it

> until it dies completely. Remember not to throw rage or fear back at the

> rager - that just feeds the spiral. Keep your cool and make them think.

>

> Good luck with it. If you try it, I'd love to hear about any results you

> get, positive or negative.

>

> -- Jen

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure. The book I mentioned discusses three overwhelming emotional

" explosions " : Fear (Anxiety/panic), Anger (Rage), and Sadness

(Depression). I found the tips on dealing with ragers and panickers to

make a lot of sense and seem workable (haven't had a chance to try the fear

techniques yet). The depression techniques were more muddled and Bernstein

acknowledged that a depressive episode isn't nearly as clear-cut to disarm

as a fear or rage episode. I think a withdrawing/waif BP type might count

as an " explosion into sadness " and some of the techniques Bernstein

presented might be helpful, but I'm not positive as I don't actually see

" waifs " as depressed. A waif is in fact being ACTIVE in a sense -- they

are taking action to get their needs met by acting helpless. Someone who is

genuinely depressed isn't being active at all. They make no demands. They

do nothing -- they just sit there. This isn't really the same (I think) as

the waif. But my experience isn't very useful here because my nada is a

rager, not a waif, so I haven't had to work so hard to figure out

techniques to use to deal with her....

But overall it's a really good book and I recommend it. He has another book

called " Emotional Vampires " that deals with various personality disorders

and gives tips on coping, but he doesn't address BPD particularly. ( I

suspect he would lump BPD under the " histrionic " type of " vampire " .) So

not much help for those of us dealing with a BP necessarily, but otherwise

a really good book if the topic of personality disorders in general

interests you.

-- Jen

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Dana Brigham wrote:

> **

>

>

> Wow -- that sounds very workable. From what I have read about the BP, this

> is how it works inside the person.

>

> And I have been reading the recent posts from various threads about the

> raging and outwardly emotionally abusive parents, but what about the

> " waif " / " hermit " types who withdraw typically?

>

> The withdrawal does not force a confrontation (normally -- unless you are

> the child rescuing the retreating parent), but I think that the internal

> feeling process is a very similar " spiral. "

>

> So -- would a similar approach work? Asking questions to break the spiral

> that fuels the withdrawal?

>

> Thanks -- Dana

>

> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Hawthorne <jenh789@...

> >wrote:

>

>

> > Something I learned from a book called " How to Deal With Emotionally

> > Explosive People " by Albert Bernstein on this topic. I tried it on my

> Nada

> > and it actually worked, which is no guarantee it will work for you but

> give

> > it a shot.

> >

> > According to Bernstein, someone who is raging is building up a rage

> spiral

> > by constantly rehearsing in their head how wrong you are and how right

> they

> > are to be mad at you. The only way to interrupt this ongoing spiral is to

> > break them out of it by forcing them to engage their thinking mind

> instead

> > of their feeling mind. You do this by ASKING QUESTIONS that require

> thought

> > to answer. Now you have to ask them in a non-confrontational way, but the

> > EXACT question you ask is unimportant. Just that it be something they

> > have to stop and think to come up with an answer to.

> >

> > The question Bernstein suggests using is " What do you want me to do? " ---

> > but be careful of the inflection. You can't say " Well, what do you want

> ME

> > to do about it?? " in a really nasty way, or it won't make them think. You

> > are trying to force the rager to THINK. So calmly and quietly ask, " What

> > would you like me to do? " [about whatever you're raging about.] Again,

> > you're not actually interested in the answer -- you're interested in

> > breaking the rage spiral. So ASK QUESTIONS, and keep asking, until their

> > momentum is utterly broken.

> >

> > As I said, I tried this on my mom when she started to fly off at me over

> > something trivial, but the question I used was -- " Mom, what are you

> afraid

> > of? You sound scared to me -- what's wrong? " That brought her to a halt

> > as she tried to figure out an answer to the question. Then she tried to

> > start raging again, and I just asked her again " What are you afraid of?

> Why

> > are you scared? " The second time disrupted her momentum completely and

> the

> > rage just kind of evaporated. I never did get any kind of answer from her

> > -- but that WASN'T THE POINT.

> >

> > So my advice would be to try this. Don't apologize or explain -- ASK

> > QUESTIONS. Calm, straightforward questions that require thought to

> > answer. Break the rage spiral, kill the momentum, and keep on killing it

> > until it dies completely. Remember not to throw rage or fear back at the

> > rager - that just feeds the spiral. Keep your cool and make them think.

> >

> > Good luck with it. If you try it, I'd love to hear about any results you

> > get, positive or negative.

> >

> > -- Jen

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have always believed that what made my nada so enraged/hostile was her feeling

that she wasn't in control. Her rages always seem to occur when there are things

I can point to in her life that are making her feel as if she isn't in control.

Obviously I can't say that is the same for every person with BPD, but I feel

pretty confident that is what causes her rage spirals.

She actually uses the word control frequently when she becomes enraged,

particularly recently when her favorite line of argument is all about how much I

try to control everything she does. (I'm trying to control when and how she can

speak to me and now I'm even trying to control what she is allowed to say!! I'm

a monster!)

Thanks to everyone who posted in here for all the various advice and insights.

For me, someone who is just beginning to try to really set and enforce

boundaries with my nada, I can use all the help I can get. This is such a great

place to help each other through this and read in others' posts some of the

exact same thoughts and feelings I sometimes have and think to myself that I am

horrible for having such thoughts and feelings and no one else would ever think

such things.

I believe that is a common thread between adult children of borderline parents.

The only thing I have been finding that cuts off my nada's rage (for now,

anyway) is what Doug said. I'm no longer playing her game. He's right - the

rules really are that simple. As soon as you play, you've lost. If you refuse to

play, and you set and enforce boundaries for yourself, while you will almost

certainly be unable to change their behavior, you will start to feel better

about yourself for protecting yourself and doing what is best for you. Last

night, she tried roping me into playing her game with several various tactics in

e-mails. Each time, I kept responses very short and sweet, without defending

myself, arguing back, saying anything about what is or isn't right or really

anything at all. I just told her that I was sorry she felt the way she did, but

that I saw things differently, and what I am doing is what I need to do for me

right now and I hope she can respect that. After 2 or 3, she had nothing left

to say. If I don't engage back with her, she runs out of steam. Granted...she

is probably only continuing to stew in her anger now and formulating new

tactics, but I will simply have to deal with those when the time comes. The

" How to Deal With Emotionally Explosive People " tactics also sound pretty doable

and effective and I am definitely going to be checking out that book soon.

It really does suck having to continue to be the adult when I have been in that

role since about 6 years old, but that's just how it is I guess. A lot of the

anger I feel about my nada has to do with that, when I think about just how long

she has made me need to be the adult, always expected to take care of myself and

her and do it perfectly (which such perfection doesn't exist).

I have been trying to come to terms with this for a while now, and I think I'm

almost there. I know that I will never make my nada happy, that there is nothing

I could ever do that would make her feel completely ok and stop her from having

rages/withdrawals and from trying to manipulate/control me. But like Doug said,

I can put up a fence and keep her from even having the opportunity to do those

things to me. It is incredibly difficult and painful, but deep down I know it's

no where near as painful as enduring her behavior anymore.

-Meredith

> > >A question that I keep asking myself is WHY!!!

> > >

> > >Why are NADAs so hostile?

> > >

> > >Mine has a favorite. " JESUS, MARY, and JOSHEPH!!! " screamed at

> > >least 36

> > >times a day.

> > >

> > >I have been hearing that, and a slam, for 45 years!

> > >

> > >What about BPD specifically makes them so angry and hostile?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> > Katrina

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You can't make her stop raging.

But *you* can stop listening.

" I can tell you're upset. I'm not going to listen while you're yelling. I'm

going to leave until you've had a chance to calm down. "

Then, leave room, hang up phone, etc.

Sveta

[Guest guest]

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU all for your insights and advise. It all

finally makes some sense!

Some good news I finally began imposing some boundaries. And to my HUGE

surprise it seems to have worked!

Nada wanted my help (she calls me 50 to 60 times a day with trivial requests

which feel demeaning to me but I have always complied just to keep her

quiet).

Tonight she called me to help her scrape out a huge bowl of soup (which she

needed help with omg!) . When you comply with these requests it usually

takes a half hour of complex instruction and directions as to do it “just

right”. Even the most trivial and stupid of tasks. ( I have learned that

most BPDs do not have one issue but a combo and Nada shows clear signs of

OCD and NPD with her BPD, I am not completely sure of the distribution yet.)

Anyway, I calmly suggested that I just take the big bowl and scrape it out

for her. This suggestion somehow hurt her and set off the usual ½ hour rant

of what a bad daughter I am, how she hopes that before she dies I show her

some appreciation for what a great parent she was and how she would not be

a good parent today if she did not point out my flaws which I need to fix

(at 45). For the first time in my whole life I just let the crazy wash over

me. I did not respond, I did not react. Mostly, I did not try to plead with

her as to why she was wrong in her thinking and I WAS OK WITH IT Normally

when she goes off it causes me so much pain it is almost unbearable. This

time I was fully able to let it wash over and not be effected. This really

was a first to not feel angry and slighted inside. She sat in the kitchen

having her little verbal cow for about 20 mins and stopped. And she seemed

to be over it as we just went back to careful communication when she was

done. Wow!

Later she was talking to her sister (who also has BPD and can’t even talk to

her own daughter without a therapist mediating My Nada is a Queen and her

sister is a Waif.)

Anyway like I have said, I came here to help when she took a heart attack.

Since then I am expected to be her slave as “I am living in her house”. I

have complied even though she is doing better to keep the peace and my poor

enabling step-dad takes so much abuse too that I have mostly just done what

needs to be done to keep the peace. (PS .. I am interviewing and looking to

move out of here now that she is somewhat up and about).

Sooo.. she was talking to Sis about coming down to visit tomorrow night and

what exactly they wanted ME to prepare for them for dinner. (I do meals,

laundry, food shopping, floors, vacuuming, bathrooms, etc 7 days a week).

Again, she sees it as her payback for my living here, my stepdad sees it as

thank God I came to help.

I am becoming angry lately at the attitude that I am here to wait on her

hand and foot and decided to “push it again”. While she was on the phone

with Sis.. I suggested that we all get up and help together getting dinner

for 4 people done, and that I had a busy day planned and would need some

help with dinner. That brought more rants and raves about how

unappreciative I am blah blah blah ( I should tell you that I am 45 and

moved out of state at 20, this is my first time living in the area for 25

years – I was not taken off the street as her poor helpless pitiful

daughter. I came here at the begging of my step dad whom I adore).

Anyway, 20 mins later it was over! We all had dinner as if all were normal.

WOW!!!

It is sad but my response to NADA has always been to just live as far away

as possible and to just keep her as happy as I could. I have never (at least

since teen) pushed it as I just didn’t want to hear it! So WOW.. these

silent boundaries may just work after all. We’ll have to wait and see when

she is on a REAL TEAR if they still work . But, it is progress.

Thank you all for being here . I have lead a life of guilt and shame for so

many years. I have been involved in alanon and ACOH for many years too but

it never fit.

Now I understand the issue and am gaining a few tools to deal with it.

Keep the stories coming and thank you again

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of svaktshka

Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:10 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Next Question... What to say when they are

raging??

You can't make her stop raging.

But *you* can stop listening.

" I can tell you're upset. I'm not going to listen while you're yelling. I'm

going to leave until you've had a chance to calm down. "

Then, leave room, hang up phone, etc.

Sveta