How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

April 2, 2012

Hi everyone,

I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with this

at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What do you

do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out with (nada)???

or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out (thus implying that I

have not tried everything in the universe I can think of to make my nada

change...clearly NOT possible.)

After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck with

these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice " or

" forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but there they

are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

Any suggestions/guidance?

Thanks for listening,

Tucket

April 2, 2012

Hi Tucket:

I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as " you

and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are fighting " .

As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and my

step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

I look forward to how the group sees this too.

M-

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

Hi everyone,

I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What

do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

(thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can think

of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice "

or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

Any suggestions/guidance?

Thanks for listening,

Tucket

April 2, 2012

Back a few years ago I was in that situation. My Aunt wrote to me about " making

up with your mother " , because my mother/nada had sobbed hysterically to her

sister/my Aunt about how my Sister and I had abandoned her, were being mean and

hateful to her, etc.

My Sister and I gave our Aunt our side of the situation, and our Aunt realized

that it was a much, much more complicated and severe problem than she had ever

realized. She backed off.

My suggestion is to say something like, " I understand that you are wanting to

help, and you feel concerned about (your nada), but this is between my mother

and me. Its private. Thanks for understanding. " and if they persist, then say,

" I'm sorry but this isn't something I'm going to discuss with you. Is there

something else you wanted to talk with me about? "

Or, you can try explaining the back-story the way Sister and I did. In our case

it worked because my mother's sister was already aware that her older sister/my

mother was a " difficult person " who had an ugly temper and treated other people

badly, but this particular Aunt had always been our mother's favorite and

" golden " sister.

This Aunt just didn't realize just how dysfunctional our mother was and how

badly she treated us kids in private. My Aunt never realized what our mother

did to us when we were little. That opened her eyes really wide. She " got it " ,

finally, that her sister had been much worse than just " difficult " ,

" high-strung " and " bossy " , that her sister was actually rather severely

mentally ill, and much too irrational, impulsive, emotionally unstable and

physically abusive to have been raising kids virtually alone and unsupervised.

So, those are a couple of options for you to consider.

-Annie

>

> Hi Tucket:

>

> I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as " you

> and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

> ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are fighting " .

> As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

> everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and my

> step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

>

> I look forward to how the group sees this too.

>

> M-

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

> this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What

> do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

> with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

> (thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can think

> of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

>

> After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

> with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice "

> or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

> there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

>

> Any suggestions/guidance?

>

> Thanks for listening,

>

> Tucket

>

April 2, 2012

Thank you. It is really difficult when it is a family member who knows that nada

is " difficult " . In my case, this was coming from my sister (granted, the BPD

one) who has been in my exact position with my nada before. How easily we

forget, right??? Its seems like she was irritated that I was disrupting the

family system and, since we all know nada won't change, it was easier to tell me

to do something rather than nada. I dont think anyone knows how to handle the

fact that I am not " playing my part " in the family dysfunction anymore. It is so

painful to be punished for doing something that is healthy.

> >

> > Hi Tucket:

> >

> > I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as " you

> > and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

> > ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are fighting " .

> > As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

> > everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and my

> > step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

> >

> > I look forward to how the group sees this too.

> >

> > M-

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

> > this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What

> > do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

> > with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

> > (thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can think

> > of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

> >

> > After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

> > with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice "

> > or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

> > there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

> >

> > Any suggestions/guidance?

> >

> > Thanks for listening,

> >

> > Tucket

> >

April 2, 2012

In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

" forgiving " at all.

It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give ourselves

space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed with the PD will

run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save everything. Our nada

is beside herself, and it's all because we're too childish to " forgive. " We're

supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger person " so that the nada will stop

crying her sob story on their shoulder. They want us to think we can actually

make the problems go away.

Baloney.

I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the past. I

accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I have to reconcile

with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You can reach a place of

forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the person ever again.

Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't have to go back and pretend

like everything's going to be better when you know it's not.

All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others have

suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's not their

problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in the triangle of

drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule and in the way you

choose.

Sveta

April 2, 2012

In my family, nobody wanted to have to cope with anything difficult. They

preferred avoidane and denial. It was a pretty unethical denial because

little children were suffering a lot of pain and abuse. But they didn't

care. In fact, in their very old age they told me that. " We all knew what

was going on " one old aunt told me after most everyone was dead. " I just

wanted you to know that, " she said.

> In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

> " forgiving " at all.

>

> It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

> everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

>

> If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give

> ourselves space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed with

> the PD will run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save

> everything. Our nada is beside herself, and it's all because we're too

> childish to " forgive. " We're supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger

> person " so that the nada will stop crying her sob story on their shoulder.

> They want us to think we can actually make the problems go away.

>

> Baloney.

>

> I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the

> past. I accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I have to

> reconcile with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You can

> reach a place of forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the

> person ever again. Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't have

> to go back and pretend like everything's going to be better when you know

> it's not.

>

> All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others have

> suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's not

> their problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in the

> triangle of drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule and in

> the way you choose.

>

> Sveta

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new book The

> Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tips and

> Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells, available at www.BPDCentral.com.**

> Problems? Write @.... DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

>

> To unsub from this list, send a blank email to

> WTOAdultChildren1-unsubscribe .

>

> Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline Parent, " and

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to find)

April 2, 2012

I think this issue is one of the " earmark issues " of growing up with a

BPD parent.

I can't even begin to count the times I've been told by family and

friends just how very, very much my Nada loves me, would fight her way

through a herd of stampeding buffalo to help me, etc., ad nauseum. It is

really crazy making.

It is inconceivable to most people that someone may be brutal and

violent to their own child because of something going on in their own head,

and not instigated by the child.

The concept of the " malicious mother " is simply incomprehensible to most

people. Even in fairy tales it's never the birth-mother who abuses her

child, but the wicked step-mother.

BPD rage is often triggered, because they *think *they know what you are

thinking.(projection) I was most often in trouble for having an attitude,

was sulking, or was " thinking " something awful. I might, in fact, be

perfectly happy, reading a book, in another room.

It is this* transitory *psychotic rage directed to a specific

individual(s), and covert situational brutality, in-between periods of

relative normalcy and affection, that make it so difficult for others, even

within the same household to comprehend the severity of the abuse directed

at the Dung Child. A fact exacerbated by the BPDs campaign of character

assassination against the chosen recipient

The split off Dung Child is discredited as being " clumsy, " ( to explain

bruises) " hyper - sensitive, " " dramatic, " " imaginative, " " spoiled, " etc.,

and may be further alienated from siblings or others, through parental

non-verbal behavior, such as eye-rolling, sighs, conspiratorial looks from

BPD parent to the preferred Golden Child, and select others, who become

embroiled in the BPD parents brutal campaign. Siblings quickly learn they

can use the Dung Child as a scapegoat for their own bad behaviors, and

nothing will be done to prevent their cruelty.

The most evil component to this whole thing, in my opinion, is that even

when they are saying *nice* things about their designated Dung Child, they

are often *still *lying, or exaggerating! This is an insidious form of

gas-lighting.

It is still propaganda in service of their campaign to damage and

discredit potential disclosure of events by the Dung Child! Such

exaggerations of Dung Childs accomplishments serve a diabolical two-fold

purpose, first, to show the world how much the BPD parent loves and takes

pride in Dung Child, thus Dung Childs' revelations of parental abuse are

met with suspicion and negation, ( " ...but honey, your mama is soooooooo

proud of you...... " ) and, secondly, as a means of further brutalizing the

Dung Childs sense of self, leaving Dung Child in the catch-22 situation of

exposing the falsehood, ( and potential retaliation by the BPD parent,) or

allowing the lie to go unchallenged, thus becoming a liar themself.

An example of this, would be the BPD parent who extols the academic

accomplishments of Dung Child, claiming that this child has received

scholarship funding, when, in fact, Dung Child is struggling to keep up

with their classes, due to a lack of parental financial support, and is

working full time to pay their own tuition, as well as taking a full course

load. Not only has Dung Child been lied about, and is too embarrassed to

correct the lie, but is now unlikely to receive any form of financial

support from relatives who hear such glowing reports from BPD parent.

It's no wonder no-one believes us. They've been programmed to think

about us in ways that make telling the truth damn near impossible, both by

societal norms, and the lifelong propaganda campaigns against us by our BPD

parent.

I believe BPDs know better than to behave in these reprehensible ways,

or they wouldn't go to such lengths to cover up their bad behavior.

Sorry I got long winded, but this is such a complex issue, its hard to pack

it into a nut shell.

What I say, when confronted about how much my BPD parent loooooveeees

me, told that I should forgive and forget, and so on, is to say some

version of the following; " The relationship between my parent and myself

is deeply complex, and out of love and respect for *her/him *I *will

not*discuss the very personal nature of these issues. Now, how was

your (insert

question of your choice) "

Framing my response in this way seems to take the wind out of the

do-gooders sails, and, while making it clear I will not discuss the issue.

Best of Luck!

Sunspot

> **

>

> In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

> " forgiving " at all.

>

> It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

> everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

>

> If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give

> ourselves space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed with

> the PD will run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save

> everything. Our nada is beside herself, and it's all because we're too

> childish to " forgive. " We're supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger

> person " so that the nada will stop crying her sob story on their shoulder.

> They want us to think we can actually make the problems go away.

>

> Baloney.

>

> I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the

> past. I accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I have to

> reconcile with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You can

> reach a place of forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the

> person ever again. Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't have

> to go back and pretend like everything's going to be better when you know

> it's not.

>

> All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others have

> suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's not

> their problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in the

> triangle of drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule and in

> the way you choose.

>

> Sveta

>

April 2, 2012

Adding a big " me too " . Sometimes the idea that both sides of an argument have

equal merit and weight is just WRONG. Because sometimes one side of an

argument, or one crazy BPD person is just WRONG. And acting as if the KO just

won't be reasonable and make up and compromise just twists reality even more.

>

> Hi Tucket:

>

> I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as " you

> and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

> ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are fighting " .

> As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

> everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and my

> step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

>

> I look forward to how the group sees this too.

>

> M-

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

> Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

> this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What

> do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

> with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

> (thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can think

> of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

>

> After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

> with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice "

> or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

> there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

>

> Any suggestions/guidance?

>

> Thanks for listening,

>

> Tucket

>

April 3, 2012

this has been a big burden for me this week. we just had a church meeting that

was broadcast and Nada would have seen it too. there was a talk all about a

letter someone had written about how her daughters would not talk to her, and

this poor mother was desperate for the speaker to ask them to forgive their

mother. the talk was all about how we " all make mistakes " and how it is wrong to

shut people out of our lives etc.

I came away thinking that for me at least my decision to only talk to Nada by

e-mail right now was not really just a lack of forgiveness. it is a lack of

trust. I don't trust her to be nice. she manipulates me every time I talk to

her, and her powers are not as strong over e-mail.

I am in weekly therapy, and doing a whole host of things for my physical

healing,and personal growth right now. I do plan to forgive, but forgiveness I

think is not an act but a process.

c.s. talked about this in the book " the problem of pain " he says that sins

have to be repented of no matter how old. my nada believes that everything she

does has an expiration date(she of coarse holds everyone else to a different

standard). I am bad because that grievance is " in the past " unfortunately almost

everything she has done, and not done has never resolved for me. (mostly because

I buried everything out of self preservation)

I am currently seriously debating responding to a letter she sent me recently in

which she " apologized " after informing me that she has wracked her brain and

can't see that she has done anything wrong. the whole thing is FOG, and

professing her " love " and " support " all the while telling me that my life has

been cake, she has never done anything wrong and as such I must have made

something up to be upset about, and ignoring everything I informed her of in the

message this was a response to. (like that I am doing physical therapy, and

undergoing extensive medical care.) she even said " when you hurt I hurt " haha.

my reason for even replying is that if I send it to her and my dad (who I doubt

knows anything about it or the nasty things she said to me on our last visit)

that at least he will stop judging me so harshly. and perhaps she may give me a

slightly nicer " apology " ?????

I know waste of time, but I feel like if I do that than at least I will have

done something in attempting to improve the relationship. I think my mom's bpd

is mild enough that she can change IF she wanted to. if she " loves " me as much

as she claims, perhaps she will try to salvage our relationship.I fear it is

more likely she will just blame me when problems continue, after all she was

happy with it.

it takes two to tango is a phrase I HATE. people used to tell me that when I was

being bullied. it is just not really true.

Meikjn

> >

> > Hi Tucket:

> >

> > I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as " you

> > and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

> > ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are fighting " .

> > As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

> > everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and my

> > step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

> >

> > I look forward to how the group sees this too.

> >

> > M-

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to forgive

> >

> > Hi everyone,

> >

> > I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

> > this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What

> > do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

> > with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

> > (thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can think

> > of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

> >

> > After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

> > with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice "

> > or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

> > there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

> >

> > Any suggestions/guidance?

> >

> > Thanks for listening,

> >

> > Tucket

> >

April 3, 2012

A person cannot make another person change, in my experience. One can only

change oneself. We can each find the best way to help ourselves grow, and to

take care of ourselves.

Cricket

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with this

at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it: What do you

do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out with (nada)???

or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out (thus implying that I

have not tried everything in the universe I can think of to make my nada

change...clearly NOT possible.)

>

> After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be nice " or

" forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but there they

are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

>

> Any suggestions/guidance?

>

> Thanks for listening,

>

> Tucket

>

April 3, 2012

(((((Meikjn)))))

I think you have stated some important insights. I agree with you that trust is

a basic component of a loving relationship.

You have a generous and forgiving heart and would be willing to trust your nada

if she would make an effort to earn your trust, so, there is nothing to feel bad

or guilty about on your part.

But if a person is not willing or able to own their own behaviors and words, if

your nada just " can't understand " why you have pulled away from her, can't admit

that she has said and done things that have hurt you badly and destroyed your

ability to trust her... in such circumstances I personally don't think

forgiveness is possible.

I guess I have a more Old-Testament (?) or at least a different definition of

what forgiveness is. To me, forgiveness is an active, voluntary transaction

between two people.

The party who has offended you needs to understand that saying or doing that

particular thing hurt you or offended you. They need to own it, admit that they

said or did that hurtful thing, and express true remorse for doing it. They

then would need to actually *ask you for your forgiveness* and promise to not do

that thing again, because they are now very clear that it hurts your feelings or

is otherwise wounding to you. Then, you have the choice to grant forgiveness if

you want to, which means that you are renewing your trust, and will put the

incident behind you and not bring it up over and over again. Its forgiven.

So where there is no acknowledgment of wrongdoing, and no remorse, and no

request for forgiveness, no promise to not do it again... I just don't see how

forgiveness can occur.

I guess in such a case, I would choose to feel pity for the person who behaves

as your nada is behaving (and as mine behaved) but at the same time to detach

emotionally from that person so that they couldn't hurt me anymore. Which is

what I did. In my heart, my mother had died. I felt pity for her, but I did

not trust her anymore or love her as my mother any longer, and so to preserve my

own psyche from further damage I went No Contact.

My Sister chose to remain in at least some contact with our nada, and Sister's

therapist advised her to be more in-the-moment and to speak up when nada said

something hurtful and ugly to Sister. Not just silently let it pass as Sister

and I had been trained (brainwashed) to do, but to say right then and there,

" Mom, that hurt my feelings. Its untrue, and falsely accusing me like that

hurts my feelings. Did you really mean to say that? Is that what you really

think of me? " And sometimes nada would back off and say no, she didn't mean

it, but other times she'd say, " Yes, I meant it. I think you are XYZ or did

XYZ.! " And in those cases, my Sister would initiate a period of No Contact.

Sometimes it would take a few hours, sometimes a few days, and sometimes weeks

before our nada would try to contact Sister again with some kind of apology.

The last few years of nada's life were spent in and out of contact with Sister

because Sister finally was speaking up when nada was verbally abusive to her.

Sister was able to handle this, she told me, because she too had in her heart

considered that our Mother had died. Sister chose to consider our nada to

simply be one of her clients who deserved Sister's professional care to the best

of Sister's ability, but, Sister didn't have a Mother any longer. She was

completely emotionally detached, or as much as is possible when the person is

your bio-mom.

So, this is a long way of saying that you need to handle this in the way that

seems best and most workable for you. Choose what you can live with, that lets

you sleep at night without the burden of FOG. My Sister made the right choice

for herself, and I made the right choice for myself, and we both sleep well at

night.

-Annie

> > >

> > > Hi Tucket:

> > >

> > > I feel your pain. My family always sees any issues I have with NADA as

" you

> > > and your mother are fighting " . Not that she is basically crazy and imposes

> > > ridiculous needs, judgments, criticisms, etc.. just that we " are

fighting " .

> > > As she is skilled at being WONDERFUL to anybody not close and talks about

> > > everybody negatively ( I cant believe how terribly she talks about me and

my

> > > step dad) when I impose some boundaries. we are " fighting " .

> > >

> > > I look forward to how the group sees this too.

> > >

> > > M-

> > >

> > > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of tucket720

> > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 11:26 AM

> > > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > > Subject: How to deal with the family pressure to

forgive

> > >

> > > Hi everyone,

> > >

> > > I'm sure this is a topic that has come up before but I am struggling with

> > > this at the moment and was wondering how you have all been handling it:

What

> > > do you do/say when other family members say, " can't you just work it out

> > > with (nada)??? or " there has to be some way for you guys to work it out

> > > (thus implying that I have not tried everything in the universe I can

think

> > > of to make my nada change...clearly NOT possible.)

> > >

> > > After one such conversation with a family member yesterday, I am now stuck

> > > with these awful feelings and urges to " just call nada " or " try to be

nice "

> > > or " forget what she did " etc. I don't think these feelings are right but

> > > there they are thanks to a rather unsupportive phone call.

> > >

> > > Any suggestions/guidance?

> > >

> > > Thanks for listening,

> > >

> > > Tucket

> > >

April 3, 2012

Sunspot,

This is a really interesting dialogue. I was particularly taken by the part

about siblings as that is what I am currently struggling with.

I have been the Golden Child in the past so I know what kind of things my nada

will say behind her children's back. I am now the " Dung Child " so I'm sure the

rest (3) of my siblings have been hearing sh*t about me. For one of my siblings,

I have definitely been the scapegoat or the object for her to project her own

bad behavior on. For all three of them in general though, I have felt really

abandoned. I always thought of my siblings and I as a united force dealing with

the unexpected dangers that would pop out suddenly from our nada. As we have

gotten older though, our united force has deconstructed and now its more " every

man for himself. " I recently described it as feeling like I am drowning and all

my siblings are aruond me watching me drown but they don't want to jump in to

save me because then they might get sucked under themselves. I think this has

been one of the hardest parts of living with a BPD parent- losing the

relationship with my siblings. We have been torn apart not just by our fear of

nada but also by each of our mental illnesses that have developed as a result.

>

> > **

> >

> > In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

> > " forgiving " at all.

> >

> > It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

> > everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

> >

> > If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give

> > ourselves space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed with

> > the PD will run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save

> > everything. Our nada is beside herself, and it's all because we're too

> > childish to " forgive. " We're supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger

> > person " so that the nada will stop crying her sob story on their shoulder.

> > They want us to think we can actually make the problems go away.

> >

> > Baloney.

> >

> > I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the

> > past. I accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I have to

> > reconcile with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You can

> > reach a place of forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the

> > person ever again. Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't have

> > to go back and pretend like everything's going to be better when you know

> > it's not.

> >

> > All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others have

> > suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's not

> > their problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in the

> > triangle of drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule and in

> > the way you choose.

> >

> > Sveta

> >

>

April 3, 2012

this is exactly it. I am disturbing nadas illusions of her " perfect family " and

" close relationship with all her girls " because I am childish. she said as much

in her letter to me.

" You have lived so far away for so long and spent so little time with the

family. I have fears that you are creating a dialog or scenario in your mind

that places you in all our minds in the same place you were as a teenager. "

was I really so bad as a teenager? or is this a confession that everyone was

mean to me when I was a teenager?

seriously nada? how about you find another way to gaslight me while you are at

it.

she has also been putting parts of my messages to her copy pasted at the end of

the family letter she writes weekly. just so it is clear I am not talking to her

on the phone. I was sending those e-mails to be kind to her. yeesh.

Meikjn

>

> In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

" forgiving " at all.

>

> It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

>

> If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give ourselves

space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed with the PD will

run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save everything. Our nada

is beside herself, and it's all because we're too childish to " forgive. " We're

supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger person " so that the nada will stop

crying her sob story on their shoulder. They want us to think we can actually

make the problems go away.

>

> Baloney.

>

> I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the past. I

accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I have to reconcile

with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You can reach a place of

forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the person ever again.

Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't have to go back and pretend

like everything's going to be better when you know it's not.

>

> All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others have

suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's not their

problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in the triangle of

drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule and in the way you

choose.

>

> Sveta

>

April 3, 2012

Hi Tucket

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Family relations,, as crafted

by BPDs are founded on secrets, lies, and uncertainty. The pit members as

adversaries, instead of bringing us together in unity and compassion It

stinks on ice!

In my experience, with my own BPD family member, they are experts at

alienating, and triangulating family members, or for that matter, members

of any group with which they become involved.

They control their companions by making some of us feel special, not only

by extolling our virtues and flattery, but by sharing confidences,

personal information, and gossip about other members.

The BPD also insures, that by revolving the status of Dung-Child -

Golden-Child, or the childrens perceived threat of being revolved, the

other children, or group members, will, out of past resentment, fear of

BPD retaliation, and relief to have momentary reprieve from the

dung-heap, be unlikely to offer help to the Dung Child-of -the-moment.

When the Golden Child is perceived as being disloyal, or out of control,

(which may not be true, but a projection of the BPD,) they then become

Dung-Child again.

BPDs further divide and conquer, manipulate and control by threatening to

expose sensitive personal issues, and also by making family members afraid

of each other, by implying disloyalty or tattling. We become uncertain

suspicious and afraid of each other, unsure of whom to trust.

My Nada uses other people like ventriloquists dummies. I have learned to

never, ever believe any words she attributes to anyone else. Ever. She

snoops, lies, eavesdrops, and accuses, seeking to destroy any trust any

family member had in anyone else. The more you loved someone, the uglier

her lies and accusations, until we were all so afraid of each other we

could hardly look each other in the eye. Then she accuses her victim of

the moment of being paranoid.

My family members have all, alternately been Dung-Child and

Golden-Child, not because of any sterling virtue, or horrific unspeakable

character flaw of our own, but because such confabulations served to

support her propaganda campaign and, perhaps, most importantly, her theater

of immediate need of the moment.

She did not " love " any of us because we were lovable, but because such a

charade served to provide her disorder with nourishment.

What I have realized, lately, is that my love for her was never of any

value to her, my pain and grief and longing for her, was only a means to

control me, and make others jealous.

She has actively worked to disenfranchise my siblings and I, describing

each of us as " self-centered, selfish, greedy, entitled, likely to steal

from the family home, and as unworthy " to the others. When confronted with

the damage her interfering and manipulation has caused between us, as

family members, she smirked, " well, why would *you* let it get that far? "

BPDs just don't think, feel, or experience other people the way the rest

of us do.

We are of value to them only as long as we are a " source of supply or

nourishment " for their disorder. The moment they are required to experience

others people as anything but theater props, they become disoriented and

enraged.

I fear the relationship between my sibs and myself are irreparably

damaged. She has further tried to alienate us from each other through

threatened disinheritance, etc., and by ramping up her

propaganda/distortion campaigns. I too feel deeply abandoned,

disenfranchised, and lonely.

She finally told me, that she doesn't love me, never loved me, and never

wants to hear from or of myself, husband, or child again. In the mean time,

she is bestowing sibs and other family members with trips, treats, and

financial aid, which she thinks is going to leave me jealous. What she

doesn't understand, is that all I ever really wanted, was for her to love

me, see me for who I am as a person, and enjoy our time together, not

because it proved some point to someone else, but because she wanted to

share part of our lives, together. I understand, now, its not going to

happen.

Sooooooo, I gotta let it go, let them go, and find ways to answer that

burning question

" Hows your Mom....... " that don't leave me wounded, or feeling defensive or

afraid, or libel;-)

Good Luck to Us All!

Sunspot

> **

>

> Sunspot,

>

> This is a really interesting dialogue. I was particularly taken by the

> part about siblings as that is what I am currently struggling with.

>

> I have been the Golden Child in the past so I know what kind of things my

> nada will say behind her children's back. I am now the " Dung Child " so I'm

> sure the rest (3) of my siblings have been hearing sh*t about me. For one

> of my siblings, I have definitely been the scapegoat or the object for her

> to project her own bad behavior on. For all three of them in general

> though, I have felt really abandoned. I always thought of my siblings and I

> as a united force dealing with the unexpected dangers that would pop out

> suddenly from our nada. As we have gotten older though, our united force

> has deconstructed and now its more " every man for himself. " I recently

> described it as feeling like I am drowning and all my siblings are aruond

> me watching me drown but they don't want to jump in to save me because then

> they might get sucked under themselves. I think this has been one of the

> hardest parts of living with a BPD parent- losing the relationship with my

> siblings. We have been torn apart not just by our fear of nada but also by

> each of our mental illnesses that have developed as a result.

>

> >

> > > **

>

> > >

> > > In family systems like the ones we grew up with, it really isn't about

> > > " forgiving " at all.

> > >

> > > It's about pretending nothing's wrong, nothing's ever been wrong, and

> > > everything's shiny. We can pose for Norman Rockwell now.

> > >

> > > If, God forbid, we should protect ourselves with boundaries, or give

> > > ourselves space by reducing contact, the people who are still enmeshed

> with

> > > the PD will run to their rescue, telling us how it's up to us to save

> > > everything. Our nada is beside herself, and it's all because we're too

> > > childish to " forgive. " We're supposed to " grow up " and " be the bigger

> > > person " so that the nada will stop crying her sob story on their

> shoulder.

> > > They want us to think we can actually make the problems go away.

> > >

> > > Baloney.

> > >

> > > I think I've forgiven my parents for the wrongs they did to me in the

> > > past. I accept that they are who they are. But that doesn't mean I

> have to

> > > reconcile with them personally--I am NC and have been for a year. You

> can

> > > reach a place of forgiveness in your heart without ever speaking to the

> > > person ever again. Forgiveness is different than pretending. You don't

> have

> > > to go back and pretend like everything's going to be better when you

> know

> > > it's not.

> > >

> > > All of that said, when the flying monkeys come to you, do what others

> have

> > > suggested: set boundaries. Tell them as politely as you like that it's

> not

> > > their problem and to stay out of your business. Refuse to be a leg in

> the

> > > triangle of drama. You can forgive or not, and on your own schedule

> and in

> > > the way you choose.

> > >

> > > Sveta

> > >

> >

April 3, 2012

Wow - thanks!

That was a mouthful.

Thanks for taking the time to write it.

M-

Re: Re: How to deal with the family pressure to

forgive

Hi Tucket

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Family relations,, as crafted by

BPDs are founded on secrets, lies, and uncertainty. The pit members as

adversaries, instead of bringing us together in unity and compassion It

stinks on ice!

In my experience, with my own BPD family member, they are experts at

alienating, and triangulating family members, or for that matter, members of

any group with which they become involved.

They control their companions by making some of us feel special, not only by

extolling our virtues and flattery, but by sharing confidences, personal

information, and gossip about other members.

The BPD also insures, that by revolving the status of Dung-Child -

Golden-Child, or the childrens perceived threat of being revolved, the

other children, or group members, will, out of past resentment, fear of

BPD retaliation, and relief to have momentary reprieve from the

dung-heap, be unlikely to offer help to the Dung Child-of -the-moment.

When the Golden Child is perceived as being disloyal, or out of control,

(which may not be true, but a projection of the BPD,) they then become

Dung-Child again.

BPDs further divide and conquer, manipulate and control by threatening to

expose sensitive personal issues, and also by making family members afraid

of each other, by implying disloyalty or tattling. We become uncertain

suspicious and afraid of each other, unsure of whom to trust.

My Nada uses other people like ventriloquists dummies. I have learned to

never, ever believe any words she attributes to anyone else. Ever. She

snoops, lies, eavesdrops, and accuses, seeking to destroy any trust any

family member had in anyone else. The more you loved someone, the uglier her

lies and accusations, until we were all so afraid of each other we could

hardly look each other in the eye. Then she accuses her victim of the

moment of being paranoid.

My family members have all, alternately been Dung-Child and Golden-Child,

not because of any sterling virtue, or horrific unspeakable character flaw

of our own, but because such confabulations served to support her propaganda

campaign and, perhaps, most importantly, her theater of immediate need of

the moment.

She did not " love " any of us because we were lovable, but because such a

charade served to provide her disorder with nourishment.

What I have realized, lately, is that my love for her was never of any

value to her, my pain and grief and longing for her, was only a means to

control me, and make others jealous.

She has actively worked to disenfranchise my siblings and I, describing

each of us as " self-centered, selfish, greedy, entitled, likely to steal

from the family home, and as unworthy " to the others. When confronted with

the damage her interfering and manipulation has caused between us, as

family members, she smirked, " well, why would *you* let it get that far? "

BPDs just don't think, feel, or experience other people the way the rest of

us do.

We are of value to them only as long as we are a " source of supply or

nourishment " for their disorder. The moment they are required to experience

others people as anything but theater props, they become disoriented and

enraged.

I fear the relationship between my sibs and myself are irreparably

damaged. She has further tried to alienate us from each other through

threatened disinheritance, etc., and by ramping up her propaganda/distortion

campaigns. I too feel deeply abandoned, disenfranchised, and lonely.