BPD with no history of abuse?

[Guest guest]

I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a history

of abuse of some type?

Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had been

abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister bad

a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the younger

sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think. Is that a

critical developmental time??

I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

*Star

[Guest guest]

Star, there may be an incident of abuse that you know nothing about and that no

one else knows about either. My nada hid hers so well until recently, even my

father didn't know about it when I asked him. Nada began to open up to new

husband and he pieced together bits and pieces of things she inadvertently let

slip during various rages. I never had any clue that my mother was sexually

abused by an older brother. Neither did I have any clue that her nada denied it

ever happened and continued to let it happen until my nada started menstruating.

I am 31 and just found this out. So something could have happened to your nada

that she has kept secret all her life. Part of her disorder is burying this away

and keeping it secret.

The other possibility is that her BPD is purely chemical and brain wiring. They

say that incidence does not alone make someone have BPD. Question for you: is it

necessary to know what caused her BPD to heal yourself? I guess in my case, it

gives me some compassion, but honestly, it doesn't. Because I can't heal her and

I can't change what happened. I can only heal myself and protect myself.

But it doesn't just have to be direct abuse. If the brain is predisposed to the

disorder, and the child is neglected or perhaps doesn't receive the proper

guidance, the result can be BPD.

I think the cause is somewhat still up for debate. What is not up for debate is

that you can heal yourself.

So that's my experience.

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

I think that a significant amount of the supposed abuse is

perceived abuse rather than actual abuse. Someone who has BPD is

likely to feel that normal parenting is abusive. Emotionally,

many of them are like toddlers. Toddlers often fail to

understand why they aren't allowed to do various things and get

disciplined if they do them. Think about what it would feel like

to grow up with that kind of a lack of understanding. They also

commonly feel that anyone who disagrees with them is being mean

to them. I think BPD can be triggered by abuse but it also seems

to have a genetic component. I believe that some people just

have bad luck genetically and have BPD which then makes them

feel abused. I see no reason to think that there's a single

explanation for all BPD.

As far as I can tell there was no actual abuse in my nada's

childhood. What there was was poverty after her father died.

Loss of a parent when young has been associated with BPD. For

her, I think the poverty was very invalidating as well. She

likes pretty things and dressing up and being so poor that they

got their clothes from donations had to have been terrible for

her. The combination may have caused her to develop BPD or maybe

she would have developed it anyway. From what I've heard her

grandmother was considered to be rather crazy and mean she may

have inherited bad genes.

At 07:28 PM 08/14/2011 Star wrote:

>I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do

>not have a history of abuse of some type?

>

>Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

>majority had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the

>thinking that it was supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or

>is it the *perception* of abuse or loss...?

>

>No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity

>disorder or mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but

>it isn't at least a known history or prevalence). My nada's

>sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or emotional

>issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at

>times. They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ...

>with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her mom

>mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me

>ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

>retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time -

>I realize my grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get

>my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked out about

>it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the

>bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not

>have a " perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in

>any way and they did have great times with their very active

>social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

>

>My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her

>youngest sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception

>of loss occurred when the younger sister was born??? That

>would put nada at about 6 years old I think. Is that a

>critical developmental time??

>

>I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she

>is. Sigh...

>

>*Star

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Katrina, for sharing. That's the hard thing, it's a number of

contributing factors that in different patients have varying degrees of effect.

It really makes me think of the serious nature of parenting. Parent really are

responsible for their kids mental health, and, in my case, I don't think mine

every gave me or my brother's mental health a second thought. It makes me wish I

knew what " real " or " normal " parents were like. Do they notice when their kids

are behaving strangely or too affectionate or too rash?

I hitchhiked home from a bike ride recently and was picked up by a middle-aged

mother and her 9 or 10 year old girl. The girl told me a story about a school

bully that she felt she had gotten some revenge on because they went to a fair

and he got scared on the rollercoaster. the mother then stopped the girl and

said, " now you know that he's not so tough. He got scared too. Maybe you can

feel some sympathy for him. "

I was amazed that the mother responded this way. She didn't want her daughter to

be mean to this poor kid, who, for whatever reason, was kind of a jerk to his

classmates. Who knows why this kid was mean to his classmates. Maybe he had

family troubles, but the mother wanted to teach her daughter to have some

empathy and not be a mean person. I don't know, it just really touched me.

I guess parents don't always know the consequences of their actions. And I guess

some mistakes are forgivable while others are not?

> >I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do

> >not have a history of abuse of some type?

> >

> >Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

> >majority had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the

> >thinking that it was supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or

> >is it the *perception* of abuse or loss...?

> >

> >No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity

> >disorder or mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but

> >it isn't at least a known history or prevalence). My nada's

> >sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or emotional

> >issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at

> >times. They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ...

> >with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her mom

> >mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me

> >ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

> >retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time -

> >I realize my grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get

> >my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked out about

> >it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the

> >bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not

> >have a " perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in

> >any way and they did have great times with their very active

> >social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

> >

> >My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her

> >youngest sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception

> >of loss occurred when the younger sister was born??? That

> >would put nada at about 6 years old I think. Is that a

> >critical developmental time??

> >

> >I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she

> >is. Sigh...

> >

> >*Star

>

> --

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

That's interesting to me how similar what you've described is to my own nada's

case.

My nada's parents were just rather ordinary, nice, middle-class, relatively

mentally healthy working folks. My nada is the middle daughter of three, but in

her case, my nada hated her older sister and liked her younger sister.

My own personal experiences with my grandparents did not relate at all to my

nada's descriptions of them: my grandpa was not the scary, raging, violent

person my nada always said he was. I never saw my grandpa lose his temper at

anyone, even when provoked by irritating grandkids. My granny was very quiet,

sweet, loving and didn't appear to favor any of us grandkids over the others,

(there were 7 of us) yet I grew up hearing from my nada that her mother

rejected her and openly preferred her older sister, her older sister's husband

and that set of grandkids.

My nada claimed that her father would fly into terrible rages and beat her and

her sisters and she was afraid of him when she was growing up, but she loved him

anyway. She claimed that her mother didn't love her and would ignore her. My

mother actively *loathed* her older sister, would tell us kids how her older

sister mistreated her. And for the first 20 years of my life, I would

repeatedly witness my mother maneuvering to get her older sister alone (away

from the other adults) at family gatherings and let her have it verbally.

And yet this older sister was very quiet and sweet; I never saw her yell back at

my mother or call her ugly names. When my mother would attack her older sister,

her older sister would just walk away. And this aunt was always sweet to me and

my Sister and never said anything bad, mean or hateful to us about our mother.

What my mother told me and my own perceptions and observations did NOT jibe;

there was a big disconnect going on somewhere, but as a kid I was just subdued

and quietly bewildered and didn't challenge my nada about anything she told me

about her family. I was too afraid of her to do that.

Fairly recently, when my Sister shared with nada's younger sister the stories

we'd been told over and over our whole lives about how the three of them were

abused and neglected and beaten, my Aunt's jaw dropped with astonishment. She

couldn't believe that we had been told such things. Neither could mother's

older sister; neither of them could corroborate my nada's version of their

childhood. Sister said our younger aunt was pretty upset at this revelation, at

what we'd been told and how far it was from the reality she'd experienced.

Neither of my two aunts have a personality disorder; none of their kids do,

either.

My own mother is the only adult I ever saw fly into red-faced, spittle-flying,

eye-dilated rage-tantrums, ever. NOBODY else in her family ever did this, to

my knowledge.

I think my nada must have been the family bully: the child everyone catered to

and walked on eggshells around to keep her from exploding. I never saw any of

the other members of my mother's foo stand up to her and tell her to knock it

off and act like an adult. Not once. They were all as afraid of her as I was,

I guess.

It seems logical to me that my nada's stories of mistreatment, neglect and abuse

were projections.

Over the years my nada has re-written history in our own nuclear family as well.

After dad died, my nada began claiming that my dad ran around cheating on her

all the time and that he would beat her (I never, ever saw any evidence of my

father raising his hand in anger to anyone. When nada would provoke him to the

point of yelling, he'd leave the house. I never saw any bruises or contusions

on either of them that would indicate physical violence. ) Nada's other

departure from reality is that she now claims that she never beat my Sister or

me, that she was always the perfect mother to us.

I've read a theory that sounds plausible to me, that has a nature+nurture basis.

Note that this is a *theory*; its based on behavioral studies and genetics

studies.

Its not written in stone as an irrefutable fact, its just a theory but I

personally find this theory very rational and logical, particularly in my own

mother's case:

Some individuals are born with the temperamental factors of very high

sensitivity to change or stress, coupled with very low resilience, or low

ability to self-soothe, so that even a mildly invalidating (normal, average)

environment (parenting) can generate higher-than-average levels of stress and

possibly even trauma in the infant/child. (In the same way that a gentle touch

on the shoulder feels excruciatingly painful to someone with a bad sunburn, but

feels neutral or pleasant to someone with unburned skin.)

Other individuals arrive in this world with a temperament factor of less

sensitivity to stress and change, coupled with a higher level of resilience or

ability to self-soothe, so that such individuals can tolerate higher levels of

stress in the environment and receive less damage from even a less-ideal

environment (parenting.) (To continue the analogy, a person born with more

melanin in their skin is able to tolerate more sunlight exposure with less

burning than someone born with very little melanin.)

So, that's what may have been going on in my own nada's case. Its a theory that

makes sense to me, seeing as how my nada the only one in her entire foo and

extended foo with a mental disorder: horribly bad luck on her spin of the

genetic roulette wheel.

But I'm open to other theories, such as the possibility that my nada perhaps

fell as a child and received an unrecognized, untreated traumatic brain injury,

or perhaps she was exposed to in-utero damaging factors (maybe her placenta

wasn't nourishing her properly, or she was exposed to a bacteria or virus or

auto-immune thing in utero). Or perhaps a difficult forceps delivery squashed

her little head.

But still, the temperament factor theory appeals to me the most.

-Annie

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,

I think that theory is plausible. It's such a hard disorder to understand. In my

nada's case, it's clearly the result of the terrible abuse she suffered as a

child, was forced to endure, and at the same time she was forced to be the

caretaker of her 7 brothers and sisters. THen when the brother who was molesting

her died in a boating accident when she was about 18, her nada practically died

along with him. My nada's molester was grandnada's proclaimed favorite.

Grandnada is clearly BPD herself and at this point has dimensia too. My question

is how she developed BPD? I know nothing about my nada's side of the family and

how they evolved. Was grandnada also abused? Or was it just programming?

Forgive the crudeness of this analogy but it's sort of like the common cold. We

don't really know what causes it, but we know how to treat it. It would be nice

to be able to do brain scans on children when they were born and identify those

low-sensitivity individuals so their parents could receive counseling on things

to be aware of. Or is that too invasive?

> >

> > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

> >

> > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

> >

> > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

> >

> > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

> >

> > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

> >

> > *Star

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Star,

My understanding--and I am not a professional, just an avid reader of all things

BPD--has been that BPD is usually brought on by some kind of childhood trauma.

The child sort of freezes developmentally and does not move through normal

emotional development, using the coping skills he had at the age of the trauma

for the rest of his life.

Certainly, abuse is one form of trauma. But there are myriad other events that a

child might perceive as traumatic. For your mother, it is certainly possible

that the birth of her younger sibling was traumatic for her, especially if her

parents did not prepare her adequately about what would be different or help her

to know that she was still a valued member of the family.

Does that help?

SVA

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

....

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

There are support groups at bpdcentral.com and bpdfamily.com that are for

non-pd parents who are raising a child with bpd, or are continuing to support or

care for an adult child with bpd.

That is where you will find posts from hundreds (thousands?) of parents

desperately looking for advice, support and encouragement, heartbroken, and

wracked with guilt, convinced that they must have done something to cause their

child to have the symptoms and traits of bpd.

Most of the children are teens or young adults; many are living in residential

care homes because of their extreme self-destructive and suicidal behaviors.

Many of these parents have more than one child, only one of whom has bpd, and

their anguish over feeling that they must have somehow caused this condition is

just so sad.

So from my point of view, it would seem that sometimes a young person with bpd

does experience abuse and neglect during their formative years, and yet in

other cases the parents are at a loss to understand why one of their children

has become so dangerously self-destructive, emotionally dysregulated, unstable

and derailed from their normal life-path, while others of their children are

not affected by pds.

-Annie

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, that's interesting, Star. I wonder if your mother, as the middle child,

saw her mother that way and behaved as she did to get attention and developed a

victim mentality.

My mother was also a middle of 3 girls, although I think in her case there was

some abuse, although she's never admitted it. I suspect there was some kind of

sexual abuse b/c nada has always been fixated on sex (e.g., forbidding me from

attending sleepovers as an 11 year old because " you might become a lesbian). My

nada most definitely has a victim/martyr mentality.

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

What I have discovered in my reading is that the conventional wisdom at

one time was the BPD was universally an effect of childhood abuse, often

sexual abuse. That is no longer held as an absolute, and researchers

are moving more into the realm of " We don t know, but These seem to be

some of the contributing factors. "

As a very VERY general statement, I d say that children who grew up in a

loving, nurturing family are unlikely to develop BPD. That is not to

say they are incapable of having other issues.

From our point of view, as KO s, that is an interesting theoretical

question. We are not in the business of curing them, or healing them.

I have wondered why my mom was BPD, and my aunt, who was raised in the

same poor, dysfunctional, but loving family was not.

But I had to fight the temptation to let compassion for what may have

caused my mom s BPD combat sound determination that I would heal, and

stay healthy, even if that triggered her BP traits. I cannot change

what caused her issue. I cannot change how I was raised, and the

trainload of FOG I was blessed with.

But I can change today.

Doug

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have

a history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

majority had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking

that it was supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the

*perception* of abuse or loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or

mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a

known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being

the rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as

nearly idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about

her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me

ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that

I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was

trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and

nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not

have a " perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and

they did have great times with their very active social life, vacations,

kids and grandkids, etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest

sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred

when the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years

old I think. Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is.

Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

That's what I've been thinking tooo, Doug. The only thing that hellps me in

knowing what may have contributed to my nada's condition is that it's not about

me.

> >

> > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have

> a history of abuse of some type?

> >

> > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

> majority had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking

> that it was supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the

> *perception* of abuse or loss...?

> >

> > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or

> mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a

> known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

> definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being

> the rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as

> nearly idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about

> her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me

> ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that

> I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was

> trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and

> nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

> parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not

> have a " perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and

> they did have great times with their very active social life, vacations,

> kids and grandkids, etc.

> >

> > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest

> sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred

> when the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years

> old I think. Is that a critical developmental time??

> >

> > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is.

> Sigh...

> >

> > *Star

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>>The only thing that hellps me in knowing what may have contributed to my

nada's >>condition is that it's not about me.

Me too! Well said. I've recently been discussing this whole situation

with my aunts, and one of them keeps asking why and how this could happen.

(the other has done more research into it on her own) So I started looking

back into it and wondering about the discrepancy in sisters.

I mean... we all here have stories of frustrating, hurtful, confusing,

inappropriate, abusive, etc., etc., etc. parenting by our BPD parent... and we

aren't BPD ourselves! So abuse, or the perception of it, is obviously not

the whole story. (sorry I realize I was really stating the obvious there)

What Annie explained - copied below - makes perfect sense to me in my

nadas case!

" Some individuals are born with the temperamental factors of very high

sensitivity to change or stress, coupled with very low resilience, or low

ability to self-soothe, so that even a mildly invalidating (normal, average)

environment (parenting) can generate higher-than- " Some individuals are born

with the temperamental factors of very high s

Thank you guys for the thought provoking responses!!

*Star

[Guest guest]

My MNL NADA didn't receive any abuse either. Her parents didn't even paddle her.

e

> >

> > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

> >

> > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

> >

> > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

> >

> > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

> >

> > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

> >

> > *Star

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" I had such a wonderful childhood " is the standard line for people from the WW2

generation backward. It doesn't mean d---, honestly. It means, they

compartmentalized because there was NO empathy, mirroring, and validation

available to them, nowhere to hide, so they disowned their own experiences. The

enabling and rescuing mean that someone in their home was codependent and

mirrored that behavior to them, it's no coincidence that many codependent women

are seen as 'superwomen' who manage to do it all and have it all. A codependent

almost always means a spouse who is some flavor of addict, NPD, or something

else. Someone is self-sacrificing to accomodate the gravitational pull of the

person who has the narcissism which operates like a black hole, sucking out the

life energy of those closest to them, and pulling everything in for miles

around. NPD tend to pathologize one child in particular and it makes me wonder,

if an NPD father pathologizes a female child what will she end up with (without

empathy or support or help during childhood when it is going on.)

>

> I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

>

> Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

>

> No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

>

> My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

>

> I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

>

> *Star

>

[Guest guest]

Lets not forget that BPD has a very strong genetic component as well. I think

most BPs have a bad childhood, but not all. BPs are also likely to be truthful

about what they perceive to be the truth. If they think they were abused, they

will normally tell you. It is the co-dependents and the NPDs that normally

remember bad times in a rosy light. BPs seem to be better able to know when they

have been mistreated and are honest about it.

> >

> > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

> >

> > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

> >

> > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

> >

> > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

> >

> > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

> >

> > *Star

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I think you may be overgeneralizing. In my own mother's case, her family of

origin were genuinely nice, ordinary people. Not perfect, just not mentally

ill, not abusive. Times were hard when my mother and her sibs were born. It

was the Great Depression. My grandpa had to work long hard hours to support not

only his own wife and kids, but his own parents who had been farmers but got too

old to work and lost their farm. He openly admitted that he resented that they

hadn't planned ahead well at all, hadn't saved anything to live on in their old

age, and burdened him with their care when he had his own family to support. He

vowed he would never do that to his own kids, and he didn't! When my nada was

a kid there was no extra money for things like birthday parties and fancy

store-bought clothes, but they had new clothes (granny could sew, and she taught

nada to sew) and each year they got new shoes, and at least according to my

aunts, they felt loved. I felt loved by my grandparents.

My dad's family of origin was pretty messed up. If anyone should have turned

into a raging narcissist or otherwise screwed-up person, it should have been my

dad. Yet he grew up to be a smart, funny, sweet, kind, but dishraggy kind of

guy. His own mother had been very domineering and controlling; she had to be.

Her husband had abandoned his wife and kids to starve during the Great

Depression.

My dad's mother had to work, and she had to beg her own family of origin for a

place to live, and they resented her presence there and openly said so. My dad's

dad had gotten a minor pregnant and bolted out of state to avoid jail.

My dad grew up hearing that his own dad was a no-good bum, and my dad wound up

" the head of the house " so to speak, as a child. He ended up joining the

military at age 16 (with his mother's consent) just in order to support his mom,

and his younger sister and brother. He and his mother were overly enmeshed; I'm

guessing he was spousified. So he married another controlling, domineering

woman to fight his battles for him, I guess.

So, each person's case is different. Bpd is not exclusively due to physical,

emotional or sexual abuse by a parent; I think future research will show that

there are several different ways that the cluster of behaviors currently

designated as " bpd " can be generated.

-Annie

> >

> > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

history of abuse of some type?

> >

> > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority had

been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

loss...?

> >

> > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or mental

illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a known history

or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people, definitely no mental or

emotional issues there except guilty of being the rescuer and enabler at times.

They describe their childhood as nearly idealic ... with great love for their

mom. My nada talks about her mom mostly in terms of loving memories, but then

she will tell me ways that she was " really mean " to her at times. In

retrospect, now that I know what was all going on at the time - I realize my

grandmother was trying to set boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her

ways, and nada freaked out about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat

parent, the bread winner in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a

" perfect marriage " but it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have

great times with their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids,

etc.

> >

> > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest sister

bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when the

younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I think.

Is that a critical developmental time??

> >

> > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is. Sigh...

> >

> > *Star

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Here's what I observed about the parents of BPDs.

When I was mistakenly placed into a day treatment program for borderlines, I

had the opportunity to meet and spend time with most of the clients'

parents. There were about 50 clients in the program, so I think I had a

pretty good sampling of parents.

I would say roughly half of the parents were definitely not nice people.

Some were cold and distant. Some were mean. Some picked at their kids

constantly. Some behaved in an inappropriately sexual manner towards their

BPD child.

For instance, one of my closest female friends there (who was one of the

" nice " borderlines - a very sweet 38-year-old woman who was only BPD towards

herself...) had a wonderful mother, but her father was just plain horrible.I

spent Christmas with my friend and her father, and I couldn't believe the

way he acted towards her. She had big breasts, and he kept making comments

about them - and reaching out and touching them and tweaking them. It made

me sick, and I know it made her sicker. She said he'd been doing that kind

of thing all her life. He was a really smarmy character. And to add insult

to injury, he was a respected Episcopalian priest. Argh.

The other half of the parents were decent and well-meaning, and baffled, and

really wanted to help their child, and did everything they could to

understand and to make their child's life better, all to no avail. I viewed

these particular BPDs as spoiled brats, because that's the way they acted.

None of those BPDs reported having been sexually or physically abused, and

their stories of emotional abuse sounded, well, not like abuse at all but

more like they didn't get what they wanted when they wanted it.

So that's just my experience.

Judy

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:54 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> I think you may be overgeneralizing. In my own mother's case, her family of

> origin were genuinely nice, ordinary people. Not perfect, just not mentally

> ill, not abusive. Times were hard when my mother and her sibs were born. It

> was the Great Depression. My grandpa had to work long hard hours to support

> not only his own wife and kids, but his own parents who had been farmers but

> got too old to work and lost their farm. He openly admitted that he resented

> that they hadn't planned ahead well at all, hadn't saved anything to live on

> in their old age, and burdened him with their care when he had his own

> family to support. He vowed he would never do that to his own kids, and he

> didn't! When my nada was a kid there was no extra money for things like

> birthday parties and fancy store-bought clothes, but they had new clothes

> (granny could sew, and she taught nada to sew) and each year they got new

> shoes, and at least according to my aunts, they felt loved. I felt loved by

> my grandparents.

>

> My dad's family of origin was pretty messed up. If anyone should have

> turned into a raging narcissist or otherwise screwed-up person, it should

> have been my dad. Yet he grew up to be a smart, funny, sweet, kind, but

> dishraggy kind of guy. His own mother had been very domineering and

> controlling; she had to be. Her husband had abandoned his wife and kids to

> starve during the Great Depression.

> My dad's mother had to work, and she had to beg her own family of origin

> for a place to live, and they resented her presence there and openly said

> so. My dad's dad had gotten a minor pregnant and bolted out of state to

> avoid jail.

> My dad grew up hearing that his own dad was a no-good bum, and my dad wound

> up " the head of the house " so to speak, as a child. He ended up joining the

> military at age 16 (with his mother's consent) just in order to support his

> mom, and his younger sister and brother. He and his mother were overly

> enmeshed; I'm guessing he was spousified. So he married another controlling,

> domineering woman to fight his battles for him, I guess.

>

> So, each person's case is different. Bpd is not exclusively due to

> physical, emotional or sexual abuse by a parent; I think future research

> will show that there are several different ways that the cluster of

> behaviors currently designated as " bpd " can be generated.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > >

> > > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

> history of abuse of some type?

> > >

> > > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority

> had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

> supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

> loss...?

> > >

> > > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or

> mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a

> known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

> definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being the

> rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as nearly

> idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her mom

> mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me ways that she

> was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that I know what was

> all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was trying to set

> boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked out

> about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the bread winner

> in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a " perfect marriage " but

> it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have great times with

> their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

> > >

> > > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest

> sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when

> the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I

> think. Is that a critical developmental time??

> > >

> > > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is.

> Sigh...

> > >

> > > *Star

> > >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is fascinating, both that you observed two different categories of parents:

nasty, abusive ones and bewildered, concerned ones, and that you were

mistakenly placed into such a program. How awful that must have been for you

to have been misdiagnosed like that.

Thank you for sharing your observations about the different kinds of parents you

met.

That would tend to corroborate the posts I've read at the support groups for

non-pd parents raising a bpd child; it seems to me that the parents writing

those posts are in the bewildered and concerned category because of the

heartbreaking levels of guilt they express.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not have a

> > history of abuse of some type?

> > > >

> > > > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast majority

> > had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it was

> > supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of abuse or

> > loss...?

> > > >

> > > > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or

> > mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a

> > known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

> > definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being the

> > rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as nearly

> > idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her mom

> > mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me ways that she

> > was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that I know what was

> > all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was trying to set

> > boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked out

> > about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the bread winner

> > in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a " perfect marriage " but

> > it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have great times with

> > their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

> > > >

> > > > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her youngest

> > sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred when

> > the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old I

> > think. Is that a critical developmental time??

> > > >

> > > > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is.

> > Sigh...

> > > >

> > > > *Star

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie -

It was indeed difficult and frustrating to have been misdiagnosed, and it's

no fun to be viewed and treated as a borderline by doctors and counselors

when you're not one. However, this was at a time when " borderline " was a

relatively new diagnosis, and people who were bipolar or who had major

depression, panic disorder and/or eating disorders were often diagnosed with

BPD, even though they lacked the majority of the BPD symptoms. I learned a

lot about myself at that program, and all in all, I'm glad I attended.

A very close long-time friend of mine, who I've known since we were young

teens, has two grown BPD children. And I can tell you right off that my

friend is in no way a nasty abusive person, yet her BPD daughter and son

literally hate her guts and won't have anything to do with her. The daughter

used to chase my friend around the house with a knife because my friend told

her she couldn't, say, go out and party all night. The son was very wild,

and stole a LOT of money and credit cards from my friend, and at one point

was arrested for child molestation. They are both drug users, and both are

high-school dropouts, even though they have IQs in the genius range. The son

has quite a few children around the country that he totally ignores. Both

the son and the daughter are incredibly irresponsible, and to hear them tell

it, my friend was the mother from the depths of hell, and she viciously beat

them all the time. (My friend is one of the most peaceful people I've ever

known - doesn't have a violent bone in her body). On the other hand, my

friend's youngest daughter is a very well-adjusted 19-year-old. She's

sunny-natured, kind-hearted, drug-and-alcohol free, and ambitious. Her

siblings despise her and have been saying horrible things to her and about

her since she was a child, which hurts her to the quick because she loves

them. And she's horrified - and baffled - at the vindictive things they say

about their mother. My friend didn't favor any of the children over

another, didn't play them against each other or anything like that. So they

all had the same mother. They were all raised decently, by a loving person.

Two are BPD. One isn't. Go figure.

Judy

On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:36 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> That is fascinating, both that you observed two different categories of

> parents: nasty, abusive ones and bewildered, concerned ones, and that you

> were mistakenly placed into such a program. How awful that must have been

> for you to have been misdiagnosed like that.

>

> Thank you for sharing your observations about the different kinds of

> parents you met.

>

> That would tend to corroborate the posts I've read at the support groups

> for non-pd parents raising a bpd child; it seems to me that the parents

> writing those posts are in the bewildered and concerned category because of

> the heartbreaking levels of guilt they express.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not

> have a

> > > history of abuse of some type?

> > > > >

> > > > > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

> majority

> > > had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that it

> was

> > > supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of

> abuse or

> > > loss...?

> > > > >

> > > > > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder or

> > > mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least a

> > > known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

> > > definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being

> the

> > > rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as nearly

> > > idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her mom

> > > mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me ways that

> she

> > > was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that I know what

> was

> > > all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was trying to set

> > > boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked

> out

> > > about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the bread

> winner

> > > in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a " perfect

> marriage " but

> > > it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have great times

> with

> > > their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her

> youngest

> > > sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss occurred

> when

> > > the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years old

> I

> > > think. Is that a critical developmental time??

> > > > >

> > > > > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she is.

> > > Sigh...

> > > > >

> > > > > *Star

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

Fantastic book out on the BPD nature/nurture combo, " Evil Genes, Why Rome

Fell, Hitler Rose, and My Sister Stole My Mother's Boyfriend, " by Barbara

Oakley. This is, in my humble opinion, a " must have " for every KO's library.

Best To All

Sunspot

> Annie -

> It was indeed difficult and frustrating to have been misdiagnosed, and it's

> no fun to be viewed and treated as a borderline by doctors and counselors

> when you're not one. However, this was at a time when " borderline " was a

> relatively new diagnosis, and people who were bipolar or who had major

> depression, panic disorder and/or eating disorders were often diagnosed

> with

> BPD, even though they lacked the majority of the BPD symptoms. I learned a

> lot about myself at that program, and all in all, I'm glad I attended.

> A very close long-time friend of mine, who I've known since we were young

> teens, has two grown BPD children. And I can tell you right off that my

> friend is in no way a nasty abusive person, yet her BPD daughter and son

> literally hate her guts and won't have anything to do with her. The

> daughter

> used to chase my friend around the house with a knife because my friend

> told

> her she couldn't, say, go out and party all night. The son was very wild,

> and stole a LOT of money and credit cards from my friend, and at one point

> was arrested for child molestation. They are both drug users, and both are

> high-school dropouts, even though they have IQs in the genius range. The

> son

> has quite a few children around the country that he totally ignores. Both

> the son and the daughter are incredibly irresponsible, and to hear them

> tell

> it, my friend was the mother from the depths of hell, and she viciously

> beat

> them all the time. (My friend is one of the most peaceful people I've ever

> known - doesn't have a violent bone in her body). On the other hand, my

> friend's youngest daughter is a very well-adjusted 19-year-old. She's

> sunny-natured, kind-hearted, drug-and-alcohol free, and ambitious. Her

> siblings despise her and have been saying horrible things to her and about

> her since she was a child, which hurts her to the quick because she loves

> them. And she's horrified - and baffled - at the vindictive things they say

> about their mother. My friend didn't favor any of the children over

> another, didn't play them against each other or anything like that. So they

> all had the same mother. They were all raised decently, by a loving person.

> Two are BPD. One isn't. Go figure.

> Judy

>

> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:36 PM, anuria67854 <anuria-67854@...

> >wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > That is fascinating, both that you observed two different categories of

> > parents: nasty, abusive ones and bewildered, concerned ones, and that you

> > were mistakenly placed into such a program. How awful that must have been

> > for you to have been misdiagnosed like that.

> >

> > Thank you for sharing your observations about the different kinds of

> > parents you met.

> >

> > That would tend to corroborate the posts I've read at the support groups

> > for non-pd parents raising a bpd child; it seems to me that the parents

> > writing those posts are in the bewildered and concerned category because

> of

> > the heartbreaking levels of guilt they express.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm curious how many have nadas or fadas that are BPD and do not

> > have a

> > > > history of abuse of some type?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Reading studies and articles on it makes it seem like the vast

> > majority

> > > > had been abused ~ yet what about the minority? Is the thinking that

> it

> > was

> > > > supressed/repressed memories of abuse? Or is it the *perception* of

> > abuse or

> > > > loss...?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No one that i know if in my family has had a personlity disorder

> or

> > > > mental illness, etc. (doesn't mean they didn't, but it isn't at least

> a

> > > > known history or prevalence). My nada's sisters are amazing people,

> > > > definitely no mental or emotional issues there except guilty of being

> > the

> > > > rescuer and enabler at times. They describe their childhood as nearly

> > > > idealic ... with great love for their mom. My nada talks about her

> mom

> > > > mostly in terms of loving memories, but then she will tell me ways

> that

> > she

> > > > was " really mean " to her at times. In retrospect, now that I know

> what

> > was

> > > > all going on at the time - I realize my grandmother was trying to set

> > > > boundaries and get my nada to maybe change her ways, and nada freaked

> > out

> > > > about it. My grandfather was far more of a backseat parent, the bread

> > winner

> > > > in the 50s type. He and my grandmother did not have a " perfect

> > marriage " but

> > > > it was good and not abusive in any way and they did have great times

> > with

> > > > their very active social life, vacations, kids and grandkids, etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My waif nada was the middle daughter, and she has split her

> > youngest

> > > > sister bad a bit. So I am guessing maybe a perception of loss

> occurred

> > when

> > > > the younger sister was born??? That would put nada at about 6 years

> old

> > I

> > > > think. Is that a critical developmental time??

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I guess I am just grasping for a reason WHY she is the way she

> is.

> > > > Sigh...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > *Star

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >