Feeling sick to my stomach...and spooked.

[Guest guest]

**WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just to be

safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's about

nightmares and fear of Nada.

So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I know

has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a rather

disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother, the evil

vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that this was the

type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was never physically

abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made threats to that

effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories about infanticide

without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I

kept thinking, this doesn't match.

Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up with the

Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness of subtle

changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is eminent. I

wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and starting

high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as adults,

her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars, and

natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have and

growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being hunted by

some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions, coyotes (do we

see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm being chased by, they

have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon animals have expressions.

That's what makes them scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing.

It's more than just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when

it starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels edgy

around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets until it's a

full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's causing it, even though I

know I'm not. As soon as I read over that section my brain flashed to an image

of the wolf from my worst dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from

Balto...what's his name? Steele, I think...) and then my brain superimposed

Nada's rage face over my dream terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My

nightmares are about HER. The realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf

and hit something all at the same time.

So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about nightmares.

It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read that when I was

light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til the sun comes up,

LOL.

[Guest guest]

((((()))))

I can relate really well to your post. When I was growing up I too had rather

frequent nightmares, mostly of the " being chased by a predator " variety. I did

have one about a large black dog that terrified me by pinning me against a wall

and snarling, baring its fangs and frothing drool at me if I moved. Most of

my dream-predators that I was trying to hide from were gigantic, inhuman things,

like Godzilla or giant airplanes (? go figure?) or robots in the walls.

It finally dawned on me only fairly recently that the giant " robot " in my dreams

(something that looked vaguely human but acted without human feelings, that was

bent on destroying me, that seemed to not even know me, would not respond to my

terror with pity) that was " coming out of the wall " (the door to my room is in

the wall) had to be my own mother.

A definite factor in the sheer terror of her rages was never knowing how far she

would go in hitting/slapping/beating me; it was like being caught in an

earthquake or tornado. How long would it last? I guess during her rages, I

felt as though she might just kill me, this thing that wasn't my mother anymore

because she acted like didn't know me.

The huge scale difference between me and my dream-predators makes me speculate

that the screaming rages might have started when I was quite tiny. Babies can

be a handful, particularly once they're mobile and get into everything and can't

be left alone. Very, very stressful for an adult who is rather narcissistic to

be focused on a toddler's needs, an adult who also can't tolerate messiness or

noise *at all*. And in my own case, I was a baby who needed extra care for a

while; I'd had an emergency major operation at about age 1 and another followup

operation at nearly 2.

When I'd have a nightmare as a child, if I woke them up, or if I mentioned it

the next morning, sometimes my nada would tell me that I must have done

something really, really bad and was hiding it from her, and the nightmare was

my conscience bothering me. So what was it you did, she would ask me. (The

Interrogation would begin.)

Yes, I recall that some chapters of UTBM were hard to read. No wonder the theme

of prisons or concentration camps crops up often when children of Witch mothers

speak of their childhood.

-Annie

>

> **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just to

be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's about

nightmares and fear of Nada.

>

> So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I

know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a rather

disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother, the evil

vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that this was the

type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was never physically

abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made threats to that

effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories about infanticide

without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I

kept thinking, this doesn't match.

>

> Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up with

the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness of

subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and

starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as

adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars,

and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

>

> I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have and

growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being hunted by

some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions, coyotes (do we

see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm being chased by, they

have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon animals have expressions.

That's what makes them scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing.

It's more than just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when

it starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels edgy

around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets until it's a

full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's causing it, even though I

know I'm not. As soon as I read over that section my brain flashed to an image

of the wolf from my worst dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from

Balto...what's his name? Steele, I think...) and then my brain superimposed

Nada's rage face over my dream terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My

nightmares are about HER. The realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf

and hit something all at the same time.

>

> So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til the

sun comes up, LOL.

>

[Guest guest]

Concentration camps. . . I don't dare tell most people but I've spent a

lifetime facinated/relating to them

The other " symbol " i relate to is coming out of the closet as homosexual -

but I was the opposite. Instead of coming out as a lesbian I had to come out

of the closet that I was a straight GIRL!!! And that I was me! Spending the

first 3 decades of my life " in the closet " as to who I really am. I've

always related to my friends who went through that.

I'm not saying its the same thing - I'm just saying its an easier to

understand metaphor for my personal experience.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:55 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> ((((()))))

>

> I can relate really well to your post. When I was growing up I too had

> rather frequent nightmares, mostly of the " being chased by a predator "

> variety. I did have one about a large black dog that terrified me by pinning

> me against a wall and snarling, baring its fangs and frothing drool at me if

> I moved. Most of my dream-predators that I was trying to hide from were

> gigantic, inhuman things, like Godzilla or giant airplanes (? go figure?) or

> robots in the walls.

>

> It finally dawned on me only fairly recently that the giant " robot " in my

> dreams (something that looked vaguely human but acted without human

> feelings, that was bent on destroying me, that seemed to not even know me,

> would not respond to my terror with pity) that was " coming out of the wall "

> (the door to my room is in the wall) had to be my own mother.

>

> A definite factor in the sheer terror of her rages was never knowing how

> far she would go in hitting/slapping/beating me; it was like being caught in

> an earthquake or tornado. How long would it last? I guess during her rages,

> I felt as though she might just kill me, this thingng that wasn't my mother

> anymore because she acted like didn't know me.

>

> The huge scale difference between me and my dream-predators makes me

> speculate that the screaming rages might have started when I was quite tiny.

> Babies can be a handful, particularly once they're mobile and get into

> everything and can't be left alone. Very, very stressful for an adult who is

> rather narcissistic to be focused on a toddler's needs, an adult who also

> can't tolerate messiness or noise *at all*. And in my own case, I was a baby

> who needed extra care for a while; I'd had an emergency major operation at

> about age 1 and another followup operation at nearly 2.

>

> When I'd have a nightmare as a child, if I woke them up, or if I mentioned

> it the next morning, sometimes my nada would tell me that I must have done

> something really, really bad and was hiding it from her, and the nightmare

> was my conscience bothering me. So what was it you did, she would ask me.

> (The Interrogation would begin.)

>

> Yes, I recall that some chapters of UTBM were hard to read. No wonder the

> theme of prisons or concentration camps crops up often when children of

> Witch mothers speak of their childhood.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just

> to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's

> about nightmares and fear of Nada.

> >

> > So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which

> I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a

> rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother,

> the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that

> this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was

> never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made

> threats to that effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories

> about infanticide without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds

> of physical abuse I kept thinking, this doesn't match.

> >

> > Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up

> with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness

> of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

> eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14

> and starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says,

> " Even as adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts,

> invasions, wars, and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM,

> p. 138).

> >

> > I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have

> and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being

> hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions,

> coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm

> being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon

> animals have expressions. That's what makes them scary. They are intensely

> *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than just animal hunting instinct;

> it's malice. The worst part is when it starts out as a normal dream, but for

> some reason my dream self feels edgy around the animal and the edgier I get,

> the scarier the dream gets until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like

> I'm the one that's causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read

> over that section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst

> dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele,

> I think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

> terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

> realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all at

> the same time.

> >

> > So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

> nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

> that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til

> the sun comes up, LOL.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I understand the connection of " coming out " as you. I am still in the process.

My young adult daughter told me just yesterday that she thought I should speak

my truth more in family of origin settings. She knows I let a lot roll off my

shoulders rather than argue or make a scene with my nada or NP sister. I turn so

many cheeks it isn't even funny. All for the sake of being civil, understanding,

pleasant, etc. Sometimes I think I do it because I am afraid I won't be able to

stop once I let go, you know?

> > >

> > > **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just

> > to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's

> > about nightmares and fear of Nada.

> > >

> > > So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which

> > I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a

> > rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother,

> > the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that

> > this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was

> > never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made

> > threats to that effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories

> > about infanticide without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds

> > of physical abuse I kept thinking, this doesn't match.

> > >

> > > Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up

> > with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness

> > of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

> > eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14

> > and starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says,

> > " Even as adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts,

> > invasions, wars, and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM,

> > p. 138).

> > >

> > > I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have

> > and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being

> > hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions,

> > coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm

> > being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon

> > animals have expressions. That's what makes them scary. They are intensely

> > *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than just animal hunting instinct;

> > it's malice. The worst part is when it starts out as a normal dream, but for

> > some reason my dream self feels edgy around the animal and the edgier I get,

> > the scarier the dream gets until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like

> > I'm the one that's causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read

> > over that section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst

> > dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele,

> > I think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

> > terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

> > realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all at

> > the same time.

> > >

> > > So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

> > nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

> > that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til

> > the sun comes up, LOL.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>All for the sake of being civil, understanding, pleasant, etc.

Sometimes I think I do it >>>because I am afraid I won't be able to stop once I

let

go, you know?

Oh boy do I know that feeling! I have said for a long time that I felt

about my mom like I was that boy in the fable (?) that had his finger in the

crack in the dam. My emotions and bottled up feelings were the water...

by saying something about anything, I felt I would be potentially moving the

finger from that dam, and then watch out... there would be no stopping it.

*Star

[Guest guest]

Girlscout, I was always interested in those camps too. Something about being

trapped in a hopeless situation, victimized, demonized for no reason, with no

hope of escape...I think probably a lot of us KO's could identify with that

sentiment at some point in out lives. I think I know what you mean by " coming

out. " Now that I think about it a good majority of my very good friends actually

have gone through that. Not to say it's the same thing at all, but maybe it's

part of what attracted us as friends. Learning that it's okay for me to like

things even if no one else does, that it's okay to have different opinions, even

just figuring out what it is I like in the first place. It's like finding a self

I never knew was there.

> **

>

>

> ((((()))))

>

> I can relate really well to your post. When I was growing up I too had

> rather frequent nightmares, mostly of the " being chased by a predator "

> variety. I did have one about a large black dog that terrified me by pinning

> me against a wall and snarling, baring its fangs and frothing drool at me if

> I moved. Most of my dream-predators that I was trying to hide from were

> gigantic, inhuman things, like Godzilla or giant airplanes (? go figure?) or

> robots in the walls.

>

> It finally dawned on me only fairly recently that the giant " robot " in my

> dreams (something that looked vaguely human but acted without human

> feelings, that was bent on destroying me, that seemed to not even know me,

> would not respond to my terror with pity) that was " coming out of the wall "

> (the door to my room is in the wall) had to be my own mother.

>

> A definite factor in the sheer terror of her rages was never knowing how

> far she would go in hitting/slapping/beating me; it was like being caught in

> an earthquake or tornado. How long would it last? I guess during her rages,

> I felt as though she might just kill me, this thingng that wasn't my mother

> anymore because she acted like didn't know me.

>

> The huge scale difference between me and my dream-predators makes me

> speculate that the screaming rages might have started when I was quite tiny.

> Babies can be a handful, particularly once they're mobile and get into

> everything and can't be left alone. Very, very stressful for an adult who is

> rather narcissistic to be focused on a toddler's needs, an adult who also

> can't tolerate messiness or noise *at all*. And in my own case, I was a baby

> who needed extra care for a while; I'd had an emergency major operation at

> about age 1 and another followup operation at nearly 2.

>

> When I'd have a nightmare as a child, if I woke them up, or if I mentioned

> it the next morning, sometimes my nada would tell me that I must have done

> something really, really bad and was hiding it from her, and the nightmare

> was my conscience bothering me. So what was it you did, she would ask me.

> (The Interrogation would begin.)

>

> Yes, I recall that some chapters of UTBM were hard to read. No wonder the

> theme of prisons or concentration camps crops up often when children of

> Witch mothers speak of their childhood.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just

> to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's

> about nightmares and fear of Nada.

> >

> > So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which

> I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a

> rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother,

> the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that

> this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was

> never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made

> threats to that effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories

> about infanticide without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds

> of physical abuse I kept thinking, this doesn't match.

> >

> > Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up

> with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness

> of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

> eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14

> and starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says,

> " Even as adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts,

> invasions, wars, and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM,

> p. 138).

> >

> > I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have

> and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being

> hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions,

> coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm

> being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon

> animals have expressions. That's what makes them scary. They are intensely

> *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than just animal hunting instinct;

> it's malice. The worst part is when it starts out as a normal dream, but for

> some reason my dream self feels edgy around the animal and the edgier I get,

> the scarier the dream gets until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like

> I'm the one that's causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read

> over that section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst

> dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele,

> I think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

> terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

> realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all at

> the same time.

> >

> > So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

> nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

> that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til

> the sun comes up, LOL.

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

((((Annie))))

Thanks for sharing this. It really is astonishing, the depth to which they can

sink to save themselves from threats that are only perceived. It confuses the

daylights out of me that someone could be so self-absorbed that they can't

understand - well, how babies work. That babies ARE a lot of work and they can't

do *anything* for themselves at all. To take advantage of that and abuse the

trust of someone so small who has no choice but to trust you - it's beyond

sickening. It's horrific. Then again, you and I are sane and reasonable and

nadas certainly are not. This is the one area that the mental illness really

shines through most clearly for me. I know I've said it before but I'll say it

again, someone like that simply cannot be trusted with a child. Period.

" I guess during her rages, I felt as though she might just kill me, this

thing that wasn't my mother anymore because she acted like didn't know

me. " YES. When she gets into that psychotic break mode with what I call the

" shark face " (head thrust out, face scrunched up, eyes all dilated so they look

black, snarling) she really seems like a total stranger. Not even human anymore

so I never know what to expect.

I remember nada would always act like the bedwetting was some big shameful

secret. She would act supportive at home, giving me advice and all that, but I

would catch her telling other adults about it at church all the time. It was so

humiliating. One of the best ways I'm finding to know what was good parenting

and what wasn't is to ask myself, " If I had a child with that problem, would I

treat my child that way? " Most of the time, the answer is HELL F*CK NO!

Subject: Re: Feeling sick to my stomach...and spooked.

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Monday, August 15, 2011, 8:55 AM

Â

((((()))))

I can relate really well to your post. When I was growing up I too had rather

frequent nightmares, mostly of the " being chased by a predator " variety. I did

have one about a large black dog that terrified me by pinning me against a wall

and snarling, baring its fangs and frothing drool at me if I moved. Most of

my dream-predators that I was trying to hide from were gigantic, inhuman things,

like Godzilla or giant airplanes (? go figure?) or robots in the walls.

It finally dawned on me only fairly recently that the giant " robot " in my dreams

(something that looked vaguely human but acted without human feelings, that was

bent on destroying me, that seemed to not even know me, would not respond to my

terror with pity) that was " coming out of the wall " (the door to my room is in

the wall) had to be my own mother.

A definite factor in the sheer terror of her rages was never knowing how far she

would go in hitting/slapping/beating me; it was like being caught in an

earthquake or tornado. How long would it last? I guess during her rages, I

felt as though she might just kill me, this thing that wasn't my mother anymore

because she acted like didn't know me.

The huge scale difference between me and my dream-predators makes me speculate

that the screaming rages might have started when I was quite tiny. Babies can

be a handful, particularly once they're mobile and get into everything and can't

be left alone. Very, very stressful for an adult who is rather narcissistic to

be focused on a toddler's needs, an adult who also can't tolerate messiness or

noise *at all*. And in my own case, I was a baby who needed extra care for a

while; I'd had an emergency major operation at about age 1 and another followup

operation at nearly 2.

When I'd have a nightmare as a child, if I woke them up, or if I mentioned it

the next morning, sometimes my nada would tell me that I must have done

something really, really bad and was hiding it from her, and the nightmare was

my conscience bothering me. So what was it you did, she would ask me. (The

Interrogation would begin.)

Yes, I recall that some chapters of UTBM were hard to read. No wonder the theme

of prisons or concentration camps crops up often when children of Witch mothers

speak of their childhood.

-Annie

>

> **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just to

be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's about

nightmares and fear of Nada.

>

> So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I

know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a rather

disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother, the evil

vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that this was the

type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was never physically

abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made threats to that

effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories about infanticide

without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I

kept thinking, this doesn't match.

>

> Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up with

the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness of

subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and

starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as

adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars,

and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

>

> I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have and

growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being hunted by

some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions, coyotes (do we

see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm being chased by, they

have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon animals have expressions.

That's what makes them scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing.

It's more than just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when

it starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels edgy

around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets until it's a

full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's causing it, even though I

know I'm not. As soon as I read over that section my brain flashed to an image

of the wolf from my worst dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from

Balto...what's his

name? Steele, I think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over

my dream terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all at the

same time.

>

> So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til the

sun comes up, LOL.

>

[Guest guest]

((HUGS))

That must have been so hard to write. I have had nightmares my whole life, all

involving basically the same 2 or 3 different scenes and all terrifying me. I

never even told my husband. When I started seeing my T, I told him and he was

the one that suggested that these dreams had to do with my childhood.

I would imagine it would be somewhat empowering to finally know where those

thoughts and nightmares are coming from so you can begin working through it. At

least it was for me.

Interesting the Witch mother elicits nightmares about natural disasters. I would

not consider my mom of the Witch variety (more Queen/waif) but my dreams are

always about the world coming to an end and me trying to save my FOO. The most

common involving turbulent flooding that I cannot escape from.

So naturally, my whole life, I have had lots of anxiety about water!

Thank you for having the courage to share that. And I wish you to begin a

journey of healing from these terrifying nightmares. ((HUGS))

>

> **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just to

be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's about

nightmares and fear of Nada.

>

> So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I

know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a rather

disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother, the evil

vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that this was the

type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was never physically

abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made threats to that

effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories about infanticide

without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I

kept thinking, this doesn't match.

>

> Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up with

the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness of

subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and

starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as

adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars,

and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

>

> I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have and

growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being hunted by

some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions, coyotes (do we

see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm being chased by, they

have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon animals have expressions.

That's what makes them scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing.

It's more than just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when

it starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels edgy

around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets until it's a

full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's causing it, even though I

know I'm not. As soon as I read over that section my brain flashed to an image

of the wolf from my worst dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from

Balto...what's his name? Steele, I think...) and then my brain superimposed

Nada's rage face over my dream terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My

nightmares are about HER. The realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf

and hit something all at the same time.

>

> So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til the

sun comes up, LOL.

>

[Guest guest]

I caught hell once as a child recounting a dream from the night before to my

nada--I dreamed the Wicked Witch of the West came out of my closet and walked

past my bed and out the door.

Yep, you guessed it. Nada HAD been in my room during my sleep. Just goes to show

my subconscious brain new exactly what the real score was. She was furious with

me!

[Guest guest]

OMG if someone told me that I'd either say it was a dream and not feel

responsible or modify my behavior to be less witchy

I would NOT get mad at someone for something they dreamed!!! Totally not in

your control!!

> **

>

>

>

> I caught hell once as a child recounting a dream from the night before to

> my nada--I dreamed the Wicked Witch of the West came out of my closet and

> walked past my bed and out the door.

>

> Yep, you guessed it. Nada HAD been in my room during my sleep. Just goes to

> show my subconscious brain new exactly what the real score was. She was

> furious with me!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Its an indicator of the mother's mental illness; I think she was attributing to

her child an adult's level/ability to make a rather witty passive-aggressive

insult.

There have been many posts here over the years detailing examples of how nadas

will take something their toddler or small child said or did, as though the

words or acts were coming from an adult... and the bpd parent will trigger into

an extremely inappropriate response.

In my opinion its f***ing unconscionable to leave a little child in the care of

someone who is incapable of relating to the child properly, can't perceive the

child's needs or emotions, can't mirror the child or nurture the child, and

instead perceives and treats the child as a fellow adult and punishes the child

basically for being a child.

-Annie

>

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> > I caught hell once as a child recounting a dream from the night before to

> > my nada--I dreamed the Wicked Witch of the West came out of my closet and

> > walked past my bed and out the door.

> >

> > Yep, you guessed it. Nada HAD been in my room during my sleep. Just goes to

> > show my subconscious brain new exactly what the real score was. She was

> > furious with me!

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for mentioning this book, Understanding the Borderline Mother.

I'm new to this group, and it's the firstI've heard of it. I

immediately put in an interlibrary loan request from my library as the

one here doesn't have it.

>

> **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought

just to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people.

It's about nightmares and fear of Nada.

>

> So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother,

which I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can

be a rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch

mother, the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I

thought that this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I

mean, she was never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried

to kill us or made threats to that effect. As I was sitting there

reading these horror stories about infanticide without regret and other

really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I kept thinking,

this doesn't match.

>

> Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew

up with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the

hyperawareness of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that

mean an explosion is eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12.

Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and starting high school. The specific

" aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as adults, her children may

dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars, and natural

disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

>

> I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I

have and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively

about being hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards,

bears, lions, coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though

it's animals I'm being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of

like the way cartoon animals have expressions. That's what makes them

scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than

just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when it

starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels

edgy around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets

until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's

causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read over that

section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst dream

(looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele, I

think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all

at the same time.

>

> So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had

read that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll

wait til the sun comes up, LOL.

>

[Guest guest]

For the many newer folks here, there is an extensive reading list offered at the

home site of this support Group, at bpdcentral.com. Yes, " UTMB " is difficult to

get through because it has such a deep emotional impact, for so many of us. But

its written in layman's terms and its easy to comprehend. Its just devastating.

I felt like in some instances I was reading my biography.

-Annie

> >

> > **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought

> just to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people.

> It's about nightmares and fear of Nada.

> >

> > So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother,

> which I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can

> be a rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch

> mother, the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I

> thought that this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I

> mean, she was never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried

> to kill us or made threats to that effect. As I was sitting there

> reading these horror stories about infanticide without regret and other

> really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I kept thinking,

> this doesn't match.

> >

> > Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew

> up with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the

> hyperawareness of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that

> mean an explosion is eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12.

> Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and starting high school. The specific

> " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as adults, her children may

> dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars, and natural

> disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

> >

> > I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I

> have and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively

> about being hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards,

> bears, lions, coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though

> it's animals I'm being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of

> like the way cartoon animals have expressions. That's what makes them

> scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than

> just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when it

> starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels

> edgy around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets

> until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's

> causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read over that

> section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst dream

> (looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele, I

> think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

> terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

> realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all

> at the same time.

> >

> > So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

> nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had

> read that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll

> wait til the sun comes up, LOL.

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hopefully this link is active:

http://www.bpdcentral.com./index.php

> > >

> > > **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought

> > just to be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people.

> > It's about nightmares and fear of Nada.

> > >

> > > So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother,

> > which I know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can

> > be a rather disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch

> > mother, the evil vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I

> > thought that this was the type that I least identified with my Nada. I

> > mean, she was never physically abusive to us and definitely never tried

> > to kill us or made threats to that effect. As I was sitting there

> > reading these horror stories about infanticide without regret and other

> > really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I kept thinking,

> > this doesn't match.

> > >

> > > Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew

> > up with the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the

> > hyperawareness of subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that

> > mean an explosion is eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12.

> > Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and starting high school. The specific

> > " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as adults, her children may

> > dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars, and natural

> > disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

> > >

> > > I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I

> > have and growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively

> > about being hunted by some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards,

> > bears, lions, coyotes (do we see a trend?). The thing is, even though

> > it's animals I'm being chased by, they have human expressions, kind of

> > like the way cartoon animals have expressions. That's what makes them

> > scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing. It's more than

> > just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when it

> > starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels

> > edgy around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets

> > until it's a full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's

> > causing it, even though I know I'm not. As soon as I read over that

> > section my brain flashed to an image of the wolf from my worst dream

> > (looks kind of like the bad wolf from Balto...what's his name? Steele, I

> > think...) and then my brain superimposed Nada's rage face over my dream

> > terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My nightmares are about HER. The

> > realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf and hit something all

> > at the same time.

> > >

> > > So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

> > nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had

> > read that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll

> > wait til the sun comes up, LOL.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear , I had similar dreams all my adult life, as well, until I learned

what they were trying to tell me. Sometimes it's very difficult to admit to

ourselves, or to have others believe, that one or both of our parents really did

have violent intentions towards us. An accurate depiction of bpd intentions can

sound extreme, offensive, implausible, to outside ears. I would really like to

emphasize in this reply how important it is to *believe nada meant to harm you,

if that is what you are perceiving.

Examples of some of my dreams: my npd father slit my throat (I was represented

by an animal); my nada was a tiny but deadly poisonous insect, crawling up my

leg, trying to sting me; wild dogs, monkeys or bears were in my home back yard,

trying to break into the childhood house where I was alone with my sister.

These continued until I learned, specifically, how and why both of my parents

were attempting to harm me, and to start protecting myself from it all.

Again--Something that's really difficult about all of this is comprehending, and

truly BELIEVING, that our parents did want to emotionally AND physically harm

us, even if they did not act on it overtly. Something that helped me a great

deal was learning about the tactics that Cult members use, because my family was

cult-like, with a narcissistic father at the helm (and BPD nada). My nada was

also a sexual assaulter--and even though she did not act it out in the

traditional ways, she *did find a way to act it out. She HAD to. It was a

compulsion of hers. She was compelled to do it in a way that she could

simultaneously mask it to herself--but she was still compelled.

It's SO important to understand that Cluster Bs are predators. They are

attracted to weakness, and it is for them, a compulsion to abuse. They are like

vultures, sharks drawn to blood, etc. This is why we dream they are

predators--because they ARE.

They are the predators of the human species. When they see weakness, they are

not moved by the natural and healthy human instinct to comfort their offspring;

instead they see it as a prime opportunity to take advantage, try to gain

something from the child, or engage their compulsion for harm. If your bpd

parent has violent tendencies, like mine both did, it's all the worse when they

smell blood.

Another extremely useful book that helps KOs to learn to heal and protect

themselves from further harm is Trauma and Recovery (Judith Herman). This book

is my therapy-Bible. It has changed my life completely.

Good luck!

[Guest guest]

Thanks for sharing this. I hadn't made the connections between my common dreams

and my childhood with a BPD parent.

I sucked my thumb until I was 12, too. My nightmares are always about being

chased by something (moral or immortal) ...or sometimes trying to " save the

world " of some enormous disaster (nature trying to kill everyone). I always win

in my dreams - but just by a hair - and I am often responsible for the lives of

others in them. They were also very vivid for every sense - very real.

Interesting to think about this. Hope you got SOME sleep.

K

>

> **WARNING** This was really disturbing for me to write, so I thought just to

be safe I'd mention that it might be triggering for some people. It's about

nightmares and fear of Nada.

>

> So I've been reading the book Understanding the Borderline Mother, which I

know has been mentioned on this board quite a few times and can be a rather

disturbing read. I was reading the section about the Witch mother, the evil

vindictive harpy. When I started reading the book I thought that this was the

type that I least identified with my Nada. I mean, she was never physically

abusive to us and definitely never tried to kill us or made threats to that

effect. As I was sitting there reading these horror stories about infanticide

without regret and other really god-awful terrifying kinds of physical abuse I

kept thinking, this doesn't match.

>

> Then I read the part about behaviors often seen in children who grew up with

the Witch. The regression, the always being on edge, the hyperawareness of

subtle changes in Nada's voice or body language that mean an explosion is

eminent. I wet the bed until I was almost 12. Sucked my thumb until I was 14 and

starting high school. The specific " aha moment " line in the book says, " Even as

adults, her children may dream about prison camps, holocausts, invasions, wars,

and natural disasters. They fear for their survival " (UTBM, p. 138).

>

> I never made the connection before between the kind of nightmares I have and

growing up with Nada. My nightmares are almost exclusively about being hunted by

some kind of predator. Wolves, hyenas, leopards, bears, lions, coyotes (do we

see a trend?). The thing is, even though it's animals I'm being chased by, they

have human expressions, kind of like the way cartoon animals have expressions.

That's what makes them scary. They are intensely *aware* of what they're doing.

It's more than just animal hunting instinct; it's malice. The worst part is when

it starts out as a normal dream, but for some reason my dream self feels edgy

around the animal and the edgier I get, the scarier the dream gets until it's a

full-blown nightmare. It feels like I'm the one that's causing it, even though I

know I'm not. As soon as I read over that section my brain flashed to an image

of the wolf from my worst dream (looks kind of like the bad wolf from

Balto...what's his name? Steele, I think...) and then my brain superimposed

Nada's rage face over my dream terror's face and I went...holy sh*t. My

nightmares are about HER. The realization kind of makes me want to cry and barf

and hit something all at the same time.

>

> So now I've thoroughly freaked the crap out of myself thinking about

nightmares. It's about 5:30 AM and dark out and I reeeaaally wish I had read

that when I was light outside. I should go to bed but I think I'll wait til the

sun comes up, LOL.

>