Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Has anyone here read any of the novels my Robin Hobbs? Some of the characters she describes are super BP. Going through the books again, I feel like it almost belongs in a psychology section as opposed to fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2012 Report Share Posted April 11, 2012 Yeah, I've read most of Hobb's stuff. Which character(s) did you have in mind? The fictional character most often cited as an example of a Borderline in action is Tien Vorsoisson in Lois Bujold's SF novel " Komarr " . He's a guy who severely emotionally abuses his wife and keeps threatening her that he's going to kill himself if she doesn't do what he wants. -- Jen H. > ** > > > Has anyone here read any of the novels my Robin Hobbs? Some of the > characters she describes are super BP. Going through the books again, I > feel like it almost belongs in a psychology section as opposed to fantasy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 I was thinking the Queen and Regal. Coincidentally, the Queen is a BPD type in the book SWOE. And one of the father character in the liveship trader series. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Robin Hobb and BP? Yeah, I've read most of Hobb's stuff. Which character(s) did you have in mind? The fictional character most often cited as an example of a Borderline in action is Tien Vorsoisson in Lois Bujold's SF novel " Komarr " . He's a guy who severely emotionally abuses his wife and keeps threatening her that he's going to kill himself if she doesn't do what he wants. -- Jen H. > ** > > > Has anyone here read any of the novels my Robin Hobbs? Some of the > characters she describes are super BP. Going through the books again, I > feel like it almost belongs in a psychology section as opposed to fantasy. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Hm, possibly. Neither Regal nor the Queen was self-harming though, which (for me) would tend to put them more in the " narcissist " camp. One interesting possible borderline character would be Hest from the " Rain Wilds " duology (Dragon Keeper/Dragon Haven). But again, no self-harm, so he's really much more of a bastard of a narcissist. (Abuses his wife AND abuses the gay lover he keeps on the side. Eventually in the books the wife and the lover compare notes and separately decide to dump Hest on his ass and find new lovers.) The reason most people point to Tien Vorsoisson (of " Komarr " ) as a " classic borderline " is that he made very deliberate threats to self-harm in order to exert emotional control over his wife (Ekaterin). Without the self-harm aspect, the distinction between borderline behavior and malignant narcissism gets really muddy and hard to define. A narcissist would never dream of self-harm. Also, narcissists don't (generally) have the overwhelming fear of abandonment that borderlines have, although there are similarities -- narcissists will rage if they perceive you as " leaving " or " abandoning " them emotionally by daring to think for a moment that they aren't the most special and perfect being on God's creation. Narcissists are quite likely to simply dump you if you fail them somehow (by not providing narcissistic supply sufficiently, or by daring to show them up by being better than them at something), unlike a borderline, who will hate and abuse you for these things but still cling to you like a limpet. ( " I hate you, don't leave me. " ) But when it comes to personality disorders, it's a spectrum like a rainbow, not a neat classification system with little cubbies you can slot people into. You can say " This person is more orange " and " This person is more red " , and there are clear differences, but exactly where red becomes orange and how they shade into each other -- there's simply no actual dividing point for that. I do have to say that Hobb does a fine job of portraying emotional abuse in all its nastiness in many of her books, which probably means she has some personal experience with it, I would guess. -- Jen H. > ** > > > I was thinking the Queen and Regal. Coincidentally, the Queen is a BPD > type in the book SWOE. And one of the father character in the liveship > trader series. > > ________________________________ > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2012 5:46 PM > Subject: Re: Robin Hobb and BP? > > > Yeah, I've read most of Hobb's stuff. Which character(s) did you have in > mind? > > The fictional character most often cited as an example of a Borderline in > action is Tien Vorsoisson in Lois Bujold's SF novel " Komarr " . He's a guy > who severely emotionally abuses his wife and keeps threatening her that > he's going to kill himself if she doesn't do what he wants. > > -- Jen H. > > > > > ** > > > > > > > Has anyone here read any of the novels my Robin Hobbs? Some of the > > characters she describes are super BP. Going through the books again, I > > feel like it almost belongs in a psychology section as opposed to > fantasy. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 Just for the record, its the author of " Understanding The Borderline Mother " , Lawson, who originated the sub-types of borderline pd that we refer to often here. Lawson's sub-types are those with borderline pd who display co-morbity with other personality disorders: Hermit: borderline pd + avoidant pd Waif: borderline pd + dependent pd Queen: borderline pd + narcissistic pd Witch: borderline pd + antisocial pd. My own mother/nada was mostly a Queen and and a Witch when Sister and I were minor kids, but as our nada aged she added in Waif or child-like, dependent traits more often than the Witch, although the Witch never went away entirely. I think its just that my nada discovered that physical intimidation and threats didn't work so well any longer so she switched tactics. Nada discovered that acting like a helpless and scared little child, a victim, and using Fear, Obligation and Guilt worked better for her, at least until Sister and I finally realized that it was mostly just a game, a manipulative tactic, and we just weren't buying it any longer. -Annie > > Hm, possibly. Neither Regal nor the Queen was self-harming though, which > (for me) would tend to put them more in the " narcissist " camp. > > One interesting possible borderline character would be Hest from the " Rain > Wilds " duology (Dragon Keeper/Dragon Haven). But again, no self-harm, so > he's really much more of a bastard of a narcissist. (Abuses his wife AND > abuses the gay lover he keeps on the side. Eventually in the books the wife > and the lover compare notes and separately decide to dump Hest on his ass > and find new lovers.) > > The reason most people point to Tien Vorsoisson (of " Komarr " ) as a " classic > borderline " is that he made very deliberate threats to self-harm in order > to exert emotional control over his wife (Ekaterin). Without the self-harm > aspect, the distinction between borderline behavior and malignant > narcissism gets really muddy and hard to define. A narcissist would never > dream of self-harm. Also, narcissists don't (generally) have the > overwhelming fear of abandonment that borderlines have, although there are > similarities -- narcissists will rage if they perceive you as " leaving " or > " abandoning " them emotionally by daring to think for a moment that they > aren't the most special and perfect being on God's creation. Narcissists > are quite likely to simply dump you if you fail them somehow (by not > providing narcissistic supply sufficiently, or by daring to show them up by > being better than them at something), unlike a borderline, who will hate > and abuse you for these things but still cling to you like a limpet. ( " I > hate you, don't leave me. " ) > > But when it comes to personality disorders, it's a spectrum like a rainbow, > not a neat classification system with little cubbies you can slot people > into. You can say " This person is more orange " and " This person is more > red " , and there are clear differences, but exactly where red becomes orange > and how they shade into each other -- there's simply no actual dividing > point for that. > > I do have to say that Hobb does a fine job of portraying emotional abuse in > all its nastiness in many of her books, which probably means she has some > personal experience with it, I would guess. > > -- Jen H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2012 Report Share Posted April 12, 2012 was actually not referring to Lawson's " Queen " archetype; he was referring to a fictional character in a fantasy book series by author Robin Hobb (The " Farseer " books, AKA the " Royal Assassin " trilogy) who was a literal royal queen. I don't actually remember if the Queen in those books ever had any other name, but the nobles in this fictional kingdom give their children names indicating the traits they most want their children to display (such as Chivalry and Patience). The Queen's darling little boy was named " Regal " , which tells you what SHE valued in her kids. Hobb tends to avoid the classic fantasy villain who is some kind of " embodiment of evil " (Sauron etc.) and go for much more human villains, who are generally more spiteful, petty, vicious, and stupid than EEEEVILLLL. So a lot of them, as points out, are emotional abusers. I was just saying that although these characters are definitely emotionally abusive, I'm not clear that if you sat them down in a psychologist's office and tried to use the DSM on them, you'd get " borderline " (if you could even do that with fictional characters, heh!) because none of them are self-destructive or overly impulsive (or seem to have " fear of abandonment " at their core.) But since they're fictional characters, you can interpret them any way you like, natch. -- Jen H. On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:30 AM, anuria67854 wrote: > ** > > > Just for the record, its the author of " Understanding The Borderline > Mother " , Lawson, who originated the sub-types of borderline pd > that we refer to often here. Lawson's sub-types are those with borderline > pd who display co-morbity with other personality disorders: > > Hermit: borderline pd + avoidant pd > Waif: borderline pd + dependent pd > Queen: borderline pd + narcissistic pd > Witch: borderline pd + antisocial pd. > > My own mother/nada was mostly a Queen and and a Witch when Sister and I > were minor kids, but as our nada aged she added in Waif or child-like, > dependent traits more often than the Witch, although the Witch never went > away entirely. > > I think its just that my nada discovered that physical intimidation and > threats didn't work so well any longer so she switched tactics. Nada > discovered that acting like a helpless and scared little child, a victim, > and using Fear, Obligation and Guilt worked better for her, at least until > Sister and I finally realized that it was mostly just a game, a > manipulative tactic, and we just weren't buying it any longer. > > -Annie > > > > > > > > Hm, possibly. Neither Regal nor the Queen was self-harming though, which > > (for me) would tend to put them more in the " narcissist " camp. > > > > One interesting possible borderline character would be Hest from the > " Rain > > Wilds " duology (Dragon Keeper/Dragon Haven). But again, no self-harm, so > > he's really much more of a bastard of a narcissist. (Abuses his wife AND > > abuses the gay lover he keeps on the side. Eventually in the books the > wife > > and the lover compare notes and separately decide to dump Hest on his ass > > and find new lovers.) > > > > The reason most people point to Tien Vorsoisson (of " Komarr " ) as a > " classic > > borderline " is that he made very deliberate threats to self-harm in order > > to exert emotional control over his wife (Ekaterin). Without the > self-harm > > aspect, the distinction between borderline behavior and malignant > > narcissism gets really muddy and hard to define. A narcissist would never > > dream of self-harm. Also, narcissists don't (generally) have the > > overwhelming fear of abandonment that borderlines have, although there > are > > similarities -- narcissists will rage if they perceive you as " leaving " > or > > " abandoning " them emotionally by daring to think for a moment that they > > aren't the most special and perfect being on God's creation. Narcissists > > are quite likely to simply dump you if you fail them somehow (by not > > providing narcissistic supply sufficiently, or by daring to show them up > by > > being better than them at something), unlike a borderline, who will hate > > and abuse you for these things but still cling to you like a limpet. ( " I > > hate you, don't leave me. " ) > > > > But when it comes to personality disorders, it's a spectrum like a > rainbow, > > not a neat classification system with little cubbies you can slot people > > into. You can say " This person is more orange " and " This person is more > > red " , and there are clear differences, but exactly where red becomes > orange > > and how they shade into each other -- there's simply no actual dividing > > point for that. > > > > I do have to say that Hobb does a fine job of portraying emotional abuse > in > > all its nastiness in many of her books, which probably means she has some > > personal experience with it, I would guess. > > > > -- Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2012 Report Share Posted April 13, 2012 I'm currently re-reading the books, but focusing on the emotional message trying to be communicated. Now that I'm looking for this, I don't believe it's subtle at all. E.g. RH's personification of the qualities in the name. Not just in the royalty. E.g. Fitz = son On another note, the magic that appears in the book is almost purely about interpersonal communication. Reading it put me in mind of the semi obsolete triune brain theory (i.e. reptillian, mammalian, human parts of our brain ). That said, I her antagonists put me in mind of bp. We never get in their heads long enough to know what they're feeling and thinking, but the rest of the behaviors are markedly similar. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2012 11:58 PM Subject: Re: Re: Robin Hobb and BP? was actually not referring to Lawson's " Queen " archetype; he was referring to a fictional character in a fantasy book series by author Robin Hobb (The " Farseer " books, AKA the " Royal Assassin " trilogy) who was a literal royal queen. I don't actually remember if the Queen in those books ever had any other name, but the nobles in this fictional kingdom give their children names indicating the traits they most want their children to display (such as Chivalry and Patience). The Queen's darling little boy was named " Regal " , which tells you what SHE valued in her kids. Hobb tends to avoid the classic fantasy villain who is some kind of " embodiment of evil " (Sauron etc.) and go for much more human villains, who are generally more spiteful, petty, vicious, and stupid than EEEEVILLLL. So a lot of them, as points out, are emotional abusers. I was just saying that although these characters are definitely emotionally abusive, I'm not clear that if you sat them down in a psychologist's office and tried to use the DSM on them, you'd get " borderline " (if you could even do that with fictional characters, heh!) because none of them are self-destructive or overly impulsive (or seem to have " fear of abandonment " at their core.) But since they're fictional characters, you can interpret them any way you like, natch. -- Jen H. On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 12:30 AM, anuria67854 wrote: > ** > > > Just for the record, its the author of " Understanding The Borderline > Mother " , Lawson, who originated the sub-types of borderline pd > that we refer to often here. Lawson's sub-types are those with borderline > pd who display co-morbity with other personality disorders: > > Hermit: borderline pd + avoidant pd > Waif: borderline pd + dependent pd > Queen: borderline pd + narcissistic pd > Witch: borderline pd + antisocial pd. > > My own mother/nada was mostly a Queen and and a Witch when Sister and I > were minor kids, but as our nada aged she added in Waif or child-like, > dependent traits more often than the Witch, although the Witch never went > away entirely. > > I think its just that my nada discovered that physical intimidation and > threats didn't work so well any longer so she switched tactics. Nada > discovered that acting like a helpless and scared little child, a victim, > and using Fear, Obligation and Guilt worked better for her, at least until > Sister and I finally realized that it was mostly just a game, a > manipulative tactic, and we just weren't buying it any longer. > > -Annie > > > > > > > > Hm, possibly. Neither Regal nor the Queen was self-harming though, which > > (for me) would tend to put them more in the " narcissist " camp. > > > > One interesting possible borderline character would be Hest from the > " Rain > > Wilds " duology (Dragon Keeper/Dragon Haven). But again, no self-harm, so > > he's really much more of a bastard of a narcissist. (Abuses his wife AND > > abuses the gay lover he keeps on the side. Eventually in the books the > wife > > and the lover compare notes and separately decide to dump Hest on his ass > > and find new lovers.) > > > > The reason most people point to Tien Vorsoisson (of " Komarr " ) as a > " classic > > borderline " is that he made very deliberate threats to self-harm in order > > to exert emotional control over his wife (Ekaterin). Without the > self-harm > > aspect, the distinction between borderline behavior and malignant > > narcissism gets really muddy and hard to define. A narcissist would never > > dream of self-harm. Also, narcissists don't (generally) have the > > overwhelming fear of abandonment that borderlines have, although there > are > > similarities -- narcissists will rage if they perceive you as " leaving " > or > > " abandoning " them emotionally by daring to think for a moment that they > > aren't the most special and perfect being on God's creation. Narcissists > > are quite likely to simply dump you if you fail them somehow (by not > > providing narcissistic supply sufficiently, or by daring to show them up > by > > being better than them at something), unlike a borderline, who will hate > > and abuse you for these things but still cling to you like a limpet. ( " I > > hate you, don't leave me. " ) > > > > But when it comes to personality disorders, it's a spectrum like a > rainbow, > > not a neat classification system with little cubbies you can slot people > > into. You can say " This person is more orange " and " This person is more > > red " , and there are clear differences, but exactly where red becomes > orange > > and how they shade into each other -- there's simply no actual dividing > > point for that. > > > > I do have to say that Hobb does a fine job of portraying emotional abuse > in > > all its nastiness in many of her books, which probably means she has some > > personal experience with it, I would guess. > > > > -- Jen H. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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