Re: Mother in Law drove me crazy

[Guest guest]

Hi. I feel for your situation. For certian your MIL providing food and cooking

for adult children, who have own homes and have own families, etc., yet she

doesn't keep her own place ,and hasn't worked in years - this is not " normal " .

My first thought is she is manipulating and this amount of involvement is way

over the top in my experience. Unless they are disabled or experiencing family

crisis- continually? But from the sounds of it this is not the case - you

mentioned a brother in law who put this to a stop. Good for him.Is she needy to

the point that she needs validation from her children by feeding them, or is it

guilt, or control, or all three? I am also thinking she may well be thinking

(conciously or not) that they will in turn take her in someday as " pay back " for

all this caretaking she is doing now? I wonder what the grandchildren must

think of their own mothers and fathers if grandmother always cooks for the

family?

I am sensing you should use this fish incident as a catalist to set some

boundries, also good timing that a son in law has done this recently and with

the arrival of your newest baby.

I know when I had baby #1 my mother had just retired and volunteered to come to

our home for my first week home to help me with my baby (her granddaughter) but

she would arrive after my husband left for work and leave before he returned. I

had a c-section and appreciated the extra sleep. But when baby #2 came and she

offered this week of help,even with anohter c-section, I thanked her but

declined the offer. I felt as a family we needed to manage the transitions

together, and she was a bit disappointed with this, but ultimately fine with

that. Not that my experience is " normal " or " best " but I definately felt my

husband and I and children needed to establish our own routines and fend for

ourselves. With your MIL already cooking for her adult daughters and their

families, I'd say be bold and set clear boundries for her and you, and your

family. The whole fish thing is just a symptom - I'd say let it go and chalk it

up to a good indicator as to why you need to ask her to let you and yours work

out this new addition to your family and how all that is going. You mentioned a

domestic helper - so I am guessing you have help already and can manage fine.

Mac and cheese that you and yours make and share is a whole lot tastier than

smelly fish from a medling MIL!

Another thought about your mention about role models - my husband's nada was

very toxic (still is) and as a child and young man growning up he looked to a

dear family friend mother figure for the " normal " role model. Sometimes we all

have to look for those models beyond our own families. When we were dating and

married and even now, he and I are very close to this woman and her family. She

and his nada don't even see one another often anymore, but we see her- more than

his nada. It is my feeling this woman (like a dear aunt figure, but not blood

related) and her whole family sensed his nada's meanness and kept the connection

for my husband and his siblings. To this day the families are close, even though

at their two annual get togethers his nada does not attend (his dad died long

ago). Mostly because of living far away and finances, but even before those

things were factors - her behaviors made her somewhat of an outcast.

I think setting healthy limits (can get good guidance from some of the books out

there if you are still struggling for a role model) and embracing this special

time in your lives as a family unit is a wonderful, stressful, yetand essential

thing. Let your MIL figure her own stuff - she had her time with her babies and

children at home - this is your time.

> > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > >hard.

> > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > >me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Amy

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your mil reminds me of my mother, a food is love kind of person who only feels

alive if she is feeding someone. If one of my kids tells her, " no, I don't want

what you made, " she becomes highly, highly offended and goes on and on about

what's wrong with them, don't they like my food anymore.

Now that I think of it, it seems less " food is love " and more " food is control. "

My mother was a great cook (she no longer cooks). I used to both love and hate

it when she would send me food. Loved it because it was delicious but hated it

because it made me feel like she was saying I didn't know how to feed my own

family and it meant I owed her.

One Thanksgiving, we had EVERYONE over to our house. Of course, I made a turkey.

So, of course, my mother shows up with a GORGEOUS turkey breast. Mine was pale

and sickly looking next to hers. Everyone was gushing about hers and when they

did, she would turn to me and say, " SEE, they like MINE best!!!! " Every. Time.

She behaved like a bratty, bitchy, self-absorbed, selfish child. I didn't allow

it to ruin my evening but it took a lot of effort.

My nada and your mil sound a bit like Marie from " Everybody Loves . "

Except it's not at all funny in real life. Not one bit.

I'm proud of you for calling her about the fish. I would have just thrown it

away and pretended it was delicious, because as you said so well, with someone

like this, you're not allowed to disagree or have a voice. I'm used to not

having a voice. Am reclaiming it more lately!!! Woo hoo!!

Best wishes, and congrats on your new baby!!

Fiona

> > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > >hard.

> > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > >me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Amy

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Thank you so much for your detailed message. It makes so much sense.

Let me give you more background info. When we first got married, my Mom in law

used to come by our house uninvited. Well, after a a few times of that I made

it clear that my home was my castle and that coming uninvited wasn't an option.

She didn't like it, but learned to live with it. She tried to force help on to

me. After the birth of my first child I attempted to go to my Mom's (BPD) place

to stay for a while so that she could help. That ended in disaster and a huge

fight and my husband and I leaving after 3 days. When we got back to our place

we were overwhelmed with the baby, didn't know how to balance things, cooking,

washing, cleaning, didn't have a domestic helper at the time. Mom in law

stepped in. She took our laundry, she started coming over with cooked food, for

an entire month. Well, it was great. Then, I decided to get domestic help, and

put a stop to her help, as I used not to like her barging into my home at all

hours of the day bringing food. It's funny, but I should have been thankful,

but deep down I wasn't, I felt, my instincts told me that she was trying to

'control' me by going over and beyond what normal people do for their daughters

in law (she does that for her daughters too by the way and did that when their

children were born, and even LIVED with one of her daughters for 6 months after

her first child was born, to the dismay of her daughter's own mother in law who

thought this was insane behavior). Then I started thinking at the fact that

MAYBE she was trying to control her son by doing this, so that he would forever

be indebted to her.

My own mother, being BPD was NO HELP whatsoever, so having Mom in law being

helpful was good - but I put a stop to that because I felt something creepie was

up. But I found that that limited my quality of life, as I didn't trust baby

sitters and so sometimes we had to rely on Mom in law to baby sit, if we wanted

a semblance of a life. I didn't trust my BPD Mom to babysit. Then, I had a

fallout with my Mom and went very LC after the birth of my second child. I

slowly started to rely on my Mom in law more, instead of visiting my own Mom, we

would visit his. I felt he needed to visit his Mom and I was being the good

wife. She is a nice person on the face of it, but the problem is when you go

over she is all over you trying to get you to eat this, eat that, are you

comfortable, can I do anything for you, anything the kids want I will do for

them, if they want the moon I will bring it for them, etc. You get the point.

What is funny, is that one of her daughters hardly ever goes over to visit her,

and the other daughter visits her all the time. Anyway, so I would periodically

get close, then feel that things were too close, and pull back.

After the birth of my 3rd child, I was NC with my Mom, so naturally who stepped

in again? My Mom in law, even before the birth tried to bring us things, food

etc. Anyway, she was a big help, no doubt, but at what price? I felt it was too

much, and after the fish incident, I think as you say, I decided to set some

boundaries, healthy ones.

So some background on my Mom in law : her own mother left her father after

giving birth to their 6th child. My Mom in law was the eldest and had to look

after her siblings. then she married her current husband, and left her country

of origin. Her father was a tyrant. A real loud mouthed guy who would put

everyone down and make fun of them, ridicule them, a real dominating guy. She

left her country of origin and went NC with her own Mom, and LC with her Dad.

She would return during the summer vacation of her children and see her Dad

sometimes and rarely, Mom, if ever. That's as much as I know about her

childhood. Currently, she doesn't believe in divorce under any circumstances

and believes that women are there to serve men, that women should never

complain. When her own daughter complained to her about her husband she told

her to go right back to her house and work it out with her husband, that she was

unwelcome to stay at her house as an option. In terms of this daughter, she has

one daughter of her own, and her mother spent most of her time at her home

raising her while her own daughter went off to study a masters' degree. There

was lots of friction between Mom in law and her daughter's husband about child

raising. Mom in law would do whatever the child wanted, spoiled them to death.

She does the same thing to my own children, can never say no to anything they

want.

Anyway, so I think that is more background for you. I'm trying to figure out if

my Mom in law has a personality disorder herself. What's funny, is that shortly

after the birth of my 3rd child, when I let my Mom in law swoop in to help, she

stayed over at our home for 10 days straight while my husband was on a business

trip. She helped me with my other kids while I was taking care of the baby.

Anyway, so we got to talking - usually we have a lot to talk about - we have

similar ideas about politics, about child raising to a degree, not to spoil them

of course, but in many ways, she and I get along better than I and my Mom, so I

think maybe I look at her as a surrogate mom or the mom I never had. Anyway, so

I told her about my Mom's BPD, and she said to me, maybe she's even

narcissistic. I was surprised my Mom in law even knew about narcissism. She's

obviously read about it.

I've read Toxic parents and UTBM. As well as " When you and your mother can't be

friends " . I know that I have to work through some issues due to being raised

by a BPD Mom, which is why I sometimes don't trust my instincts on people, and

also why I feel that when I am " helped " by someone, it's probably going to be

rubbed in my face someday and give me a guilt trip if I don't reciprocate. You

are right, maybe she is doing this because she has no sense of worth without her

children, maybe she is doing this because she wants to 'control'. 'manipulate'

maybe, so that she can assure that we will see her on a regular basis and be

'enmeshed' with her. I've read about enmeshment and I think that her 'helping'

us has become too much 'enmeshment'.

Any thoughts? Especially on the personality of my Mom in Law and how I can

navigate this thru safe waters?

Thanks for listening.

N

> Hi. I feel for your situation. For certian your MIL providing food and cooking

for adult children, who have own homes and have own families, etc., yet she

doesn't keep her own place ,and hasn't worked in years - this is not " normal " .

My first thought is she is manipulating and this amount of involvement is way

over the top in my experience. Unless they are disabled or experiencing family

crisis- continually? But from the sounds of it this is not the case - you

mentioned a brother in law who put this to a stop. Good for him.Is she needy to

the point that she needs validation from her children by feeding them, or is it

guilt, or control, or all three? I am also thinking she may well be thinking

(conciously or not) that they will in turn take her in someday as " pay back " for

all this caretaking she is doing now? I wonder what the grandchildren must think

of their own mothers and fathers if grandmother always cooks for the family?

>

> I am sensing you should use this fish incident as a catalist to set some

boundries, also good timing that a son in law has done this recently and with

the arrival of your newest baby.

>

> I know when I had baby #1 my mother had just retired and volunteered to come

to our home for my first week home to help me with my baby (her granddaughter)

but she would arrive after my husband left for work and leave before he

returned. I had a c-section and appreciated the extra sleep. But when baby #2

came and she offered this week of help,even with anohter c-section, I thanked

her but declined the offer. I felt as a family we needed to manage the

transitions together, and she was a bit disappointed with this, but ultimately

fine with that. Not that my experience is " normal " or " best " but I definately

felt my husband and I and children needed to establish our own routines and fend

for ourselves. With your MIL already cooking for her adult daughters and their

families, I'd say be bold and set clear boundries for her and you, and your

family. The whole fish thing is just a symptom - I'd say let it go and chalk it

up to a good indicator as to why you need to ask her to let you and yours work

out this new addition to your family and how all that is going. You mentioned a

domestic helper - so I am guessing you have help already and can manage fine.

Mac and cheese that you and yours make and share is a whole lot tastier than

smelly fish from a medling MIL!

>

> Another thought about your mention about role models - my husband's nada was

very toxic (still is) and as a child and young man growning up he looked to a

dear family friend mother figure for the " normal " role model. Sometimes we all

have to look for those models beyond our own families. When we were dating and

married and even now, he and I are very close to this woman and her family. She

and his nada don't even see one another often anymore, but we see her- more than

his nada. It is my feeling this woman (like a dear aunt figure, but not blood

related) and her whole family sensed his nada's meanness and kept the connection

for my husband and his siblings. To this day the families are close, even though

at their two annual get togethers his nada does not attend (his dad died long

ago). Mostly because of living far away and finances, but even before those

things were factors - her behaviors made her somewhat of an outcast.

>

> I think setting healthy limits (can get good guidance from some of the books

out there if you are still struggling for a role model) and embracing this

special time in your lives as a family unit is a wonderful, stressful, yetand

essential thing. Let your MIL figure her own stuff - she had her time with her

babies and children at home - this is your time.

>

>

>

>

> > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > >hard.

> > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > >me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Amy

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you Fiona for such a sweet message. I feel better already! When I told my

husband that I called her, he said that I shouldn't have, that she needn't know

the fish was bad. But I said, oh I have to, I'm reading these books that say I

should voice my opinion about things without fear. He said, oh those books are

not to be trusted on life. I said, they were written by PHDs ( Forward).

He said, PHDs don't mean anything. I said, yes they do, these people have

studied psychiatry and human nature on a large scale and definitely have things

to say that we should listen to. Then I felt I had to defend myself in front of

my husband, that oh, your Mom never wants to hear the truth about things, that

everything she ever cooks or brings over is 'perfect' and we have no right to

voice 'disagreement'. He then grudgingly acknowledged that his mom should not

have answered back with 'oh I'll take all the fish back from you' , she should

have asked me what I wanted to do with it, and should have respected the fact

that I would offer half of it to my domestic helper if she wanted it. At least

he agreed with that part. Then I proceeded to tell him that I thought that he

never voiced his opinion with his parents. He said, my parents are not my

friends, they are my parents, and I avoid confrontation with them, let them

think what they want to. I guess that's an unhealthy son parent relationship

don't you think? or is it just guys being guys in that they avoid confrontation

and take the easier route for their peace of minds? My Dad is very non

confrontational with my BPD Mom, and I think I may have married my Dad in this!!

N

> Your mil reminds me of my mother, a food is love kind of person who only feels

alive if she is feeding someone. If one of my kids tells her, " no, I don't want

what you made, " she becomes highly, highly offended and goes on and on about

what's wrong with them, don't they like my food anymore.

>

> Now that I think of it, it seems less " food is love " and more " food is

control. "

>

> My mother was a great cook (she no longer cooks). I used to both love and hate

it when she would send me food. Loved it because it was delicious but hated it

because it made me feel like she was saying I didn't know how to feed my own

family and it meant I owed her.

>

> One Thanksgiving, we had EVERYONE over to our house. Of course, I made a

turkey. So, of course, my mother shows up with a GORGEOUS turkey breast. Mine

was pale and sickly looking next to hers. Everyone was gushing about hers and

when they did, she would turn to me and say, " SEE, they like MINE best!!!! "

Every. Time. She behaved like a bratty, bitchy, self-absorbed, selfish child. I

didn't allow it to ruin my evening but it took a lot of effort.

>

> My nada and your mil sound a bit like Marie from " Everybody Loves . "

Except it's not at all funny in real life. Not one bit.

>

> I'm proud of you for calling her about the fish. I would have just thrown it

away and pretended it was delicious, because as you said so well, with someone

like this, you're not allowed to disagree or have a voice. I'm used to not

having a voice. Am reclaiming it more lately!!! Woo hoo!!

>

> Best wishes, and congrats on your new baby!!

>

> Fiona

>

>

> > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > >hard.

> > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > >me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Amy

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

So first, don't beat up on yourself because you've accepted her help. It's okay

to say " I need help. " and it's okay to say again " I don't need help anymore,

thank you so much for helping us WHEN WE NEEDED IT. "

Your MIL sounds like an imperfect person, and that's pretty normal for most of

us. What I hear is that you feel guilty because you need to set healthy

boundaries and she doesn't always seem to understand them. That's okay, she

doesn't have to understand them, she just has to respect them.

Remember this: it's okay to ask for help, it's okay to determine when you don't

need help anymore, it's okay to change your mind, it's okay to set boundaries

with people.

Just as an example, it seems to be pretty normal for mothers or MILs to help out

after a child is born (I mean right after), but after a few weeks or so, the

very stressful part of reacclimating is over and mom or MIL returns home and

couple with newborn ease into parenting on their own. But some moms and MILs

will stay forever if they feel they are needed and no one tells them otherwise.

So we have to be able to set the boundaries and say: thank you so much for being

here for us when the baby was born. We want to shift into getting back to normal

life and managing on our own. You have helped us so much in this transition. So

we would like to treat you to dinner (or whatever) before you go on X day. "

I think you are struggling right now (as we all do) with setting healthy

boundaries and building healthy relationships, but you are doing an amazing job

keeping perspective.

> > > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > > >hard.

> > > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > > >me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Amy

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Katrina

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I think i missed something about a fish (probably due to trimming), but I

wonder if your MIL might be one of those dependent personalities?

Having been through near complete annihilation of my personhood with my ex

MIL I have a very difficult time trusting women in that role. Ok, its beyond

difficult, it just doesn't happen. Between my nada and my ex nada in law, I

pretty much totally bristle at the sight of a woman in that age rage acting

even remotely strange. Boyfriend points it out all the time. He's like " I

knew you wouldn't like her, she acts strange and fits the mold. "

So I guess my only point is I getcha!

> **

>

>

> So first, don't beat up on yourself because you've accepted her help. It's

> okay to say " I need help. " and it's okay to say again " I don't need help

> anymore, thank you so much for helping us WHEN WE NEEDED IT. "

>

> Your MIL sounds like an imperfect person, and that's pretty normal for most

> of us. What I hear is that you feel guilty because you need to set healthy

> boundaries and she doesn't always seem to understand them. That's okay, she

> doesn't have to understand them, she just has to respect them.

>

> Remember this: it's okay to ask for help, it's okay to determine when you

> don't need help anymore, it's okay to change your mind, it's okay to set

> boundaries with people.

>

> Just as an example, it seems to be pretty normal for mothers or MILs to

> help out after a child is born (I mean right after), but after a few weeks

> or so, the very stressful part of reacclimating is over and mom or MIL

> returns home and couple with newborn ease into parenting on their own. But

> some moms and MILs will stay forever if they feel they are needed and no one

> tells them otherwise. So we have to be able to set the boundaries and say:

> thank you so much for being here for us when the baby was born. We want to

> shift into getting back to normal life and managing on our own. You have

> helped us so much in this transition. So we would like to treat you to

> dinner (or whatever) before you go on X day. "

>

> I think you are struggling right now (as we all do) with setting healthy

> boundaries and building healthy relationships, but you are doing an amazing

> job keeping perspective.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > > > >hard.

> > > > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > > > >me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Amy

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Katrina

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Kudos to you for standing your ground and being politely assertive about not

wanting the not-fresh fish from your parents in law. That took a lot of

courage!

Me personally, I think that the two extreme types of behavior you've described

are both abnormal; they're like the two ends of a spectrum and both extreme ends

are difficult to deal with. Your mother demands to be cared for and catered to

like she is a small child, and your mother in law demands to treat you like you

are a small child with no sense.

Both of these behavioral styles are about controlling others, seems to me.

I think your mom and your mom in law should get together; it would be a match

made in heaven.

Wishing you strength and endurance.

-Annie

> > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > >hard.

> > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > >me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Amy

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, your mother in law sounds like an extreme codependent. She is intent on

keeping everyone dependent on her, or her only sense of self worth comes from

doing for others.

Re: the stinky fish. I would have just thrown the fish away, thanking her

without any explanation and not complained.

> > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > >hard.

> > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > >me.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >Amy

> > >

> > > --

> > > Katrina

> > >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you Annie!

Actually what's funny, my Mom and Mom in law hate each other - with me in the

middle - imagine my life!

Though I've gone NC with Mom recently and told my Mom in law about my Mom's BPD

- she was understanding. But now I've got to deal with Mom in law and let her

know my boundaries and that I think she is causing too much dependency. She'll

probably never get it. But at least I can set boundaries. She made father in

law call tonight to ask when we were going to have dinner at their's. Then she

took over the phone and spoke with my husband. My husband asks me when. I say

tomorrow night. So tomorrow night it is! Let the games begin . She was probably

freaked out by the way I behaved concerning the fish incident and wanted to make

amends to show her son that she is oh such a great mother to invite us to

dinner. I'm at little anxious about tomorrow's dinner, but I guess I can take

it with a straight face and come out on top. Just have to remember to be calm

and collected and assertive.

Thanks for all your help and especially your validation.

N

> Kudos to you for standing your ground and being politely assertive about not

wanting the not-fresh fish from your parents in law. That took a lot of courage!

>

> Me personally, I think that the two extreme types of behavior you've described

are both abnormal; they're like the two ends of a spectrum and both extreme ends

are difficult to deal with. Your mother demands to be cared for and catered to

like she is a small child, and your mother in law demands to treat you like you

are a small child with no sense.

>

> Both of these behavioral styles are about controlling others, seems to me.

>

> I think your mom and your mom in law should get together; it would be a match

made in heaven.

>

> Wishing you strength and endurance.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > >hard.

> > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > >me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Amy

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yeah, that's what my husband suggested!

But I couldn't keep my mouth shut. It's all that BPD childhood I went thru, I

guess I want people to hear me, to hear my opinion. I want to be acknowledged

and to be listened to. THat's what I craved with my BPD Mom.

N

> Yes, your mother in law sounds like an extreme codependent. She is intent on

keeping everyone dependent on her, or her only sense of self worth comes from

doing for others.

>

> Re: the stinky fish. I would have just thrown the fish away, thanking her

without any explanation and not complained.

>

>

> > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > >hard.

> > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > >me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Amy

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Katrina

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I just hope she isn't planning on serving you the fish that smelled just to

prove to you that it was edible and that you were *wrong* to not accept it from

her. Argh.

Yes, let the games begin!

-Annie

> > > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > > >hard.

> > > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > > >me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >Amy

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Katrina

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Annie - I know! I was just reading these posts and thinking, geez, if there's a

fish course, and it smells reeeeeeeeally familiar...

But on a serious note, I feel I do have to say one thing here - it is not

exactly on topic, and I hesitate to even bring it up - and I do NOT want to hurt

your feelings, N, or make you think twice about posting - but here goes...

You have every right to decline that gift of food, and you have both the right

and the responsibility to decline to feed your family food that may be old or

tainted. Old fish can make you violently ill.

Here's what bothered me about your post - both you and your mother in law

considered offering the smelly fish to your " domestic helpers. " Where I live,

there was a long, long tradition of sending leftovers home with " the help. "

These women usually spent the day cleaning, cooking, and caring for the boss

lady's children while their own children had no such attention at home. While

it was helpful to augment the worker's pantry with food left from the boss's

table, that meant that the worker's family was constantly eating the leavings

from the boss's table, instead of having their own mom cook dinner for them. It

is sort of a cultural sore spot - one of many that arose from a time when many

citizens of my country had no choice but to work as " domestic helpers. " I

realize it may be a " just me " type of thing - but I wanted to point out that if

fish wasn't fit for your family, it wasn't fit for the maids to eat, either.

That's all.

Again, I mean no disrespect and I don't want to discourage you from posting.

This isn't a personal attack. It's just an observation.

> > > > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > > > >hard.

> > > > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > > > >me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >Amy

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Katrina

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Dear Annie,

That was really really Funny!!! I had to read that out to my husband and it

cracked him up too.

It's amazing that you can have such a sense of humor after such a childhood. You

are a light that shines in the darkness and your strength is amazing.

Turns out my son has a really high fever and we called to apologize about

dinner, so I'll never know about the " fish " - Ha.

Hugs,

N

> I just hope she isn't planning on serving you the fish that smelled just to

prove to you that it was edible and that you were *wrong* to not accept it from

her. Argh.

>

> Yes, let the games begin!

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > Thank you Annie!

> >

> > Actually what's funny, my Mom and Mom in law hate each other - with me in

the middle - imagine my life!

> >

> > Though I've gone NC with Mom recently and told my Mom in law about my Mom's

BPD - she was understanding. But now I've got to deal with Mom in law and let

her know my boundaries and that I think she is causing too much dependency.

She'll probably never get it. But at least I can set boundaries. She made father

in law call tonight to ask when we were going to have dinner at their's. Then

she took over the phone and spoke with my husband. My husband asks me when. I

say tomorrow night. So tomorrow night it is! Let the games begin…. She was

probably freaked out by the way I behaved concerning the fish incident and

wanted to make amends to show her son that she is oh such a great mother to

invite us to dinner. I'm at little anxious about tomorrow's dinner, but I guess

I can take it with a straight face and come out on top. Just have to remember to

be calm and collected and assertive.

> >

> > Thanks for all your help and especially your validation.

> >

> > N

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

You are absolutely right. And I am glad you bring it up. The reason I post

here is to get constructive criticism, and yours was constructive. I agree,

that thought went thru my head. However, I wanted to also point out that our

domestic help eats exactly what we eat. We cook for all of us to eat, so I'm

not the type of person to pass leftovers on. In addition, if the domestic help

needs any food of her own, she writes us a list, and we buy it for her. She has

the full right not to eat what we eat as well, if she doesn't like it, she can

cook for herself, she has her own kitchen. Most times I ask her, do you want

this, or rather that?

Regarding the fish, I was going to offer it to her only, she is free to take it

or leave it. However, as I've observed from having her around for the last year

and a half, fish is her favorite meal and so to her what is smelly to us may be

alright to her, in addition, she comes from a fishing country so she knows her

fish and wouldn't eat bad fish. I give them the option to make their own

choices and they make their own decisions regarding their food. Actually, in my

area I agree with you, some people give their domestic help the leftovers. My

Mom (BPD) does that. I don't. I always believed that it's unfair. They eat

what we eat. I always stood up for our domestic help growing up, Mom was and

still is, extremely mean to hers - actually my siblings and Dad always give the

domestic help money, food, favors from behind my Mom's back - she is just too

mean to them. Those BPD Narcissists are especially mean to those they see as

" inferior " so I am extremely sensitive to making sure everyone feels equal - we

are all equal, no matter what.

Thanks for bringing it up though. I'm all for constructive criticism.

Hugs,

N

> Annie - I know! I was just reading these posts and thinking, geez, if there's

a fish course, and it smells reeeeeeeeally familiar...

>

> But on a serious note, I feel I do have to say one thing here - it is not

exactly on topic, and I hesitate to even bring it up - and I do NOT want to hurt

your feelings, N, or make you think twice about posting - but here goes...

>

> You have every right to decline that gift of food, and you have both the right

and the responsibility to decline to feed your family food that may be old or

tainted. Old fish can make you violently ill.

>

> Here's what bothered me about your post - both you and your mother in law

considered offering the smelly fish to your " domestic helpers. " Where I live,

there was a long, long tradition of sending leftovers home with " the help. "

These women usually spent the day cleaning, cooking, and caring for the boss

lady's children while their own children had no such attention at home. While it

was helpful to augment the worker's pantry with food left from the boss's table,

that meant that the worker's family was constantly eating the leavings from the

boss's table, instead of having their own mom cook dinner for them. It is sort

of a cultural sore spot - one of many that arose from a time when many citizens

of my country had no choice but to work as " domestic helpers. " I realize it may

be a " just me " type of thing - but I wanted to point out that if fish wasn't fit

for your family, it wasn't fit for the maids to eat, either. That's all.

>

> Again, I mean no disrespect and I don't want to discourage you from posting.

This isn't a personal attack. It's just an observation.

>

>

>

>

> > > > > > > >This is how I lived my life...as a nothing...when my mom hated

> > > > > > > >every amazingly athletic, charitable, academic or social thing

> > > > > > > >I ever succeeded at.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >I am certainly not a nothing anymore... but this quote hit me

> > > > > > > >hard.

> > > > > > > >It will always make me think of the years I had to disassociate

> > > > > > > >myself with life so that my mother would stop complaining about

> > > > > > > >me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >Amy

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Katrina

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

N - I'm glad to hear you are much more enlightened than your elders on this

matter - again, if I wasn't raised in a very specific area of my country where

this was sort of a cultural " issue " I probably wouldn't even have thought about

it.

And I hope you all come through the MIL's dinner party without food poisoning

from decaying food!

[Guest guest]

Dear all,

Thank you for all your lovely posts.

Just wanted to follow up that ever since the " fish incident " my mother in law

has made much less contact - great! I think she's finally got the message!

though she did try to weasle her way back in by offering to come over to help

because my son is ill, and also tried to invite us over to dinner which we

didn't go to because my son is ill. The one time she called and I did answer was

when she offered to send over some food again for the sick child at which I

answered: " we can handle it, no need to send anything. " Then she said: " you

sound busy " I said : " yes I am, good bye. "

I've figured out since then that my Mom in Law is a codependent. I figured that

out after reading the " Melody Beattie " book on " Codependency. " What's funny, is

that I also think I am codependent too! So the funny thing is I can actually

imagine what she's thinking right now. She's probably angry at me but hiding it

behind her facade of " I want to help " , she probably can't take her anger out on

me because she knows she will not win, her son is my husband and she wouldn't

want to make a mess of the relationship. She has probably anger issues her

whole life that she hasn't taken out on anyone. Let me just give you some of

the highlights of her life. Her husband goes to work every single day of his

life, he only comes home to eat and sleep. That's it. He goes to work every

single weekend 7 days a week, no day off, no matter what, whether we are invited

to lunch or not. And the funny thing is he's about 75 years old and really he

doesn't work during weekends he just sits there reading the newspaper and

surfing the net, then he goes swimming everyday and then visits his family once

or twice a week (My Mom in law does not join him in visiting his family). He has

a strict routine that he does not diverge from, he is the type of person that

will not say no to anyone, he is extremely kind and giving but at the same time

has rigid opinions about things and about the way he wants to conduct his day.

I was thinking, why doesn't he want to spend time with his wife? Isn't that

strange?

I'm into analyzing my inlaws now because I think they are not a healthy family

to be around, they have LOTS of family secrets, the Mom in law told me once that

" homes are about keeping secrets " , she gave me that piece of advice the day

after I got married to her son. They have always been very nice to me ,

generous and kind, however, OVER NICE, if you know what I mean, OVER GIVING.

There is something sinister lurking below the family and I'm not sure what it

is. Or do you think it's just my background with BPD Mom, that I always think

that nice may be too much?

But I definitely think the codependency is there. she said it herself, she is

nothing without her children. Her day is not a nice day if she doesn't see or

hear or cook for one of us.

I was about to send this post when guess who just called? as they say: " speaking

of the devil " . Mom in law. Asked about the kids, if they were alright now. I

said yes, fine. Then I asked about her. She said fine. then she proceeded to ask

if I needed any help, I said no, we are fine, but thank you for your offered

help. Asked about the baby, if she's crawling yet. Then she said: you're

probably busy you will be feeding the kids right? I said yes, actually I am

about to feed them. so we said goodbye. Short and sweet. But reeks of

codependency doesn't it?

N

>

> N - I'm glad to hear you are much more enlightened than your elders on this

matter - again, if I wasn't raised in a very specific area of my country where

this was sort of a cultural " issue " I probably wouldn't even have thought about

it.

>

> And I hope you all come through the MIL's dinner party without food poisoning

from decaying food!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My grandmother was like that. She had absolutley no life, no interests and

was terrified and lived in fear. She hardly ever left her home. I loved my

grandma, I spent a LOT of time with her. She taught me how to cook, clean

etc etc - she didn't know much but she taught me what she knew. In a lot of

ways though, she wasted her life. I know other people who had feisty

grandma's who campaigned for women's rights or went on safari to africa. I

wish my grandma had had just a little bit more pepper in her. . . I don't

blame you for setting boundaries. I set them with my grandmother, esp when i

went to college. She just wanted to come live with me, that's all she talked

about. In the dorm, in an appt, everywhere I went. . .

> Dear all,

>

> Thank you for all your lovely posts.

>

> Just wanted to follow up that ever since the " fish incident " my mother in

> law has made much less contact - great! I think she's finally got the

> message! though she did try to weasle her way back in by offering to come

> over to help because my son is ill, and also tried to invite us over to

> dinner which we didn't go to because my son is ill. The one time she called

> and I did answer was when she offered to send over some food again for the

> sick child at which I answered: " we can handle it, no need to send

> anything. " Then she said: " you sound busy " I said : " yes I am, good bye. "

>

> I've figured out since then that my Mom in Law is a codependent. I figured

> that out after reading the " Melody Beattie " book on " Codependency. " What's

> funny, is that I also think I am codependent too! So the funny thing is I

> can actually imagine what she's thinking right now. She's probably angry at

> me but hiding it behind her facade of " I want to help " , she probably can't

> take her anger out on me because she knows she will not win, her son is my

> husband and she wouldn't want to make a mess of the relationship. She has

> probably anger issues her whole life that she hasn't taken out on anyone.

> Let me just give you some of the highlights of her life. Her husband goes

> to work every single day of his life, he only comes home to eat and sleep.

> That's it. He goes to work every single weekend 7 days a week, no day off,

> no matter what, whether we are invited to lunch or not. And the funny thing

> is he's about 75 years old and really he doesn't work during weekends he

> just sits there reading the newspaper and surfing the net, then he goes

> swimming everyday and then visits his family once or twice a week (My Mom in

> law does not join him in visiting his family). He has a strict routine that

> he does not diverge from, he is the type of person that will not say no to

> anyone, he is extremely kind and giving but at the same time has rigid

> opinions about things and about the way he wants to conduct his day. I was

> thinking, why doesn't he want to spend time with his wife? Isn't that

> strange?

>

> I'm into analyzing my inlaws now because I think they are not a healthy

> family to be around, they have LOTS of family secrets, the Mom in law told

> me once that " homes are about keeping secrets " , she gave me that piece of

> advice the day after I got married to her son. They have always been very

> nice to me , generous and kind, however, OVER NICE, if you know what I mean,

> OVER GIVING. There is something sinister lurking below the family and I'm

> not sure what it is. Or do you think it's just my background with BPD Mom,

> that I always think that nice may be too much?

>

> But I definitely think the codependency is there. she said it herself, she

> is nothing without her children. Her day is not a nice day if she doesn't

> see or hear or cook for one of us.

>

> I was about to send this post when guess who just called? as they say:

> " speaking of the devil " . Mom in law. Asked about the kids, if they were

> alright now. I said yes, fine. Then I asked about her. She said fine. then

> she proceeded to ask if I needed any help, I said no, we are fine, but thank

> you for your offered help. Asked about the baby, if she's crawling yet.

> Then she said: you're probably busy you will be feeding the kids right? I

> said yes, actually I am about to feed them. so we said goodbye. Short and

> sweet. But reeks of codependency doesn't it?

>

> N

>

>

>

> >

> > N - I'm glad to hear you are much more enlightened than your elders on

> this matter - again, if I wasn't raised in a very specific area of my

> country where this was sort of a cultural " issue " I probably wouldn't even

> have thought about it.

> >

> > And I hope you all come through the MIL's dinner party without food

> poisoning from decaying food!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd say that she sounds intensely needy to me, and lonely. And obsessed. (I

personally have thought of co-dependency as feeling inappropriately responsible

for another adult's feelings and well-being, as in, " its my job to make/keep my

parents happy. " )

Your mil hasn't made an interesting and fulfilling life for herself outside of

her children.

(Her husband seems to be a complete non-entity, like a ghost that occupies her

house instead of a living human being. Very sad.)

That's sad for her and frustrating for you that she can't (or won't) focus on

anything but her kids, because there are so many, many fascinating things in

the world to become interested in, to learn about, to support, to make a

creative contribution to in some way.

She needs something to become obsessed with besides her children and

grandchildren.

Or maybe she needs to meet another man and have an affair or something. ;>

-Annie

>

> >

> > N - I'm glad to hear you are much more enlightened than your elders on this

matter - again, if I wasn't raised in a very specific area of my country where

this was sort of a cultural " issue " I probably wouldn't even have thought about

it.

> >

> > And I hope you all come through the MIL's dinner party without food

poisoning from decaying food!

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>