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xyz and Chloe, my dad says you need a " Thick Skin " when dealing with BP mother

and BP step-mother. The definition of Thick Skin is, [paraphrase] to not take

it personal and realize that they (the BP) are honestly doing the best they know

how to.

The problem is that, if you do not have a thick skin, you just don't have it.

It is not like borrowing a jacket that you can just put on when you need it. My

dad developed somewhat of a thick skin because he was the youngest in his

family. His older brother and father buffered him quite a bit from BP mother.

Whenever BP mother would start behaving irrational, they would counsel him. For

instance, they might say, " never mind her, she is just being crazy again. " This

help him not take things personally later in life (a thick skin).

However, my brother and I had no buffer, so we learned to take everything

personal. How is a child supposed to do anything different unless there is some

sort of intervention. My dad gave up and became a work-o-holic and became

indifferent to what was going on in the house; he did not buffer my brother and

I like he had been. Children cannot buffer themselves. Nor can an adult child

develop a thick skin without help. You can't buy it.

If you are an adult child of a BP parent and you were not buffered from the BP

parent, then you most likely do not have a thick skin. You automatically take

things personally and you are naturally defensive. I was like this until I

entered therapy.

In order to get a thick skin, I think we must seek out an intervention. Science

has shown that professional help from a qualified and train mental health

professional is the best way to develop that thick skin (otherwise coined a

sense of self). However, religion is the most common effort and is one I had

tried many times in my life, but this is not an effective means in my

experience. Religion is good for some things, but not childhood

abuse/trauma/neglect/abandonment. Religion only put a wet blanket over the pain

and lull me into a false reality, that everything was OK and that Jesus took my

pain away from me (no disrespect, but he didn't). However, every time I came

into contact with BP mother or ex-BPW or any other dysfunctional situation, I

still got angry and upset. I had terrible dreams about my mother that caused me

to wake up in a sweat, grinding my teeth in anger. 12 step programs did not

help either. 12 steps are great for some things, but not the things we deal

with as adult children of BP parents.

In therapy, I basically gained a substitute parent, who gave me that buffer that

I needed as a child, but didn't get. Since I was an adult and less amendable,

specialized training was necessary to help me disarm all our dysfunctional

defenses, which had become very engrained and resistant to change.

I no longer grind my teeth at night, have nightmares, or act defensively when in

dysfunctional situations. It took 4 years of therapy, but it was worth it. I

changed on a paradigm level.

I am a strong advocate for professional help. I tried a lot of other things

that either didn't help or made things worse. My skin is much thicker now and I

am happier than ever before. Life is no utopia, no land of milk and honey, nor

a heavenly city with streets of gold; it is just more " real. " I am very

fortunate to have received the help that I did and hope others will read my

testimony and give therapy a shot too.

>

>

> This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand, because

everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they would never

be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn daughter

and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention is turned

from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my daughter in a

text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not recognize her

even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to express my

feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was my attempt

to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be unaffected

by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now recognized her

BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting

her out of my life is not an option, but living with her careless unintentional

hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is internally painful.

>

> Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to hear

about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having some

relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

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I think this is a very profound and important insight that you have explained,

and it makes a lot of sense to me, RE, the therapist being the enlightened

witness, the validating adult, the buffer we all needed as children. Thank you

for sharing this insight.

I think it absolutely fits in my own case; there was nobody, not one adult, to

tell me that my mother was mentally ill, that she had absurdly unrealistic

expectations of us, that her parenting style was actually abusive, and that I

shouldn't take what she said and did to me personally.

Why did no one buffer me or validate me? Because my mother was able to rein in

her worst and most abusive behaviors for when we were alone together, or alone

with just me and my little Sister. My nada was usually pretty normal-acting and

more emotionally stable when dad was at home, or, she would direct her rages at

him instead of at Sister and me. She would ratchet the level of her rage at

us kids way down and wouldn't let herself go batshit crazy or physically

brutalize Sister or me when dad was home. She was high-functioning enough to

control herself in that way. On top of that, she could portray the very

picture of the gentle, tolerant, patient, long-suffering mother in front of

other adults. But I learned pretty early on that I couldn't use the

opportunity of being in public to act out even a little; payback would only be

delayed until we were in the car or behind closed doors.

Dad never spoke negatively about our mother to us, his whole life. He was very

loyal that way. The most he would ever say is that " Your mother is

" high-strung " (meaning " nervous " ) so you have to be good girls and do what your

mother says and keep her happy. "

So, he was basically telling us, " You're on your own. If you make her mad, you

know what the consequences will be. " He simply wasn't aware of how extreme she

could get with us, and we were too ashamed, embarrassed and afraid to even bring

it up with him. Mother made us believe that we deserved such treatment. She

was careful to only spank us or beat us with the belt where the marks wouldn't

show: our backs, buttocks and the backs of our legs. She was clever that way.

The hand print from a slap would fade quickly, and hitting us on the head didn't

show.

So whenever my mother would go off the deep end and descend into one of her

red-faced, spittle-flying, pupil-dilated screaming rages, and would screech in

my face that it was my fault that she would become so angry and spank, slap, or

beat me with the belt, because I was so bad, or so stupid, or so useless, or so

ungrateful, etc... OF COURSE I took it personally; what else can a child do in

such a case?

Your insight makes it all the more important to me, anyway, that we as adults,

whenever we have the opportunity, should make the effort to be enlightened

witnesses, and give validation and emotional support and buffering to the

children of abusive, mentally ill parents, so these kids can grow a thicker skin

earlier in life, and withstand the damage better.

-Annie

> >

> >

> > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand, because

everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they would never

be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn daughter

and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention is turned

from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my daughter in a

text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not recognize her

even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to express my

feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was my attempt

to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be unaffected

by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now recognized her

BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting

her out of my life is not an option, but living with her careless unintentional

hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> >

> > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to hear

about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having some

relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

>

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,

Wow, that really resonated with me! I fight so hard not to take things

personally and I am always naturally defensive, to the point where I feel like I

survived a war. Maybe that is why so many of us have anxiety issues.

How do we go about finding a therapist that understands these issues? I have

tried to find a therapist before, but I had no idea how to find the right one so

I gave up and tried to deal with everything myself.

natalia

> >

> >

> > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand, because

everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they would never

be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn daughter

and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention is turned

from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my daughter in a

text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not recognize her

even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to express my

feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was my attempt

to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be unaffected

by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now recognized her

BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting

her out of my life is not an option, but living with her careless unintentional

hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> >

> > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to hear

about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having some

relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

>

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" Jesus took my pain away from me (no disrespect, but he didn't) "

Ha ha this made me smile. i also grew up with a lot of spiritual abuse. i

think even if you find comfort and healing in a religion you can understand

that Jesus doesn't just take all the pain away. you have to work and work

and work and work. And even then it still hurts but maybe you can find a

balance between pain and joy.

On to the real topic " Thick Skin "

Yes I've heard that a million times from my dad. Let me decode it for you,

its actually a secret code language that only an enabler can speak. What it

mean is - " Please don't be hurt by your mother's horrible behavior because

that makes my job of keeping homeostasis in this family in tact more

difficult. I can't agree with you because it means she will turn her evil

laser eye on me and attack me and my skin isn't thick enough to take it. And

it is easier for me to control you than it is to control her, so stop

feeling right now! "

It also means

" Our family is dysfunctional. We operate under the rules don't talk, don't

feel and don't tell. You are breaking the first 2 of these rules. You need

to thicken up your skin and shut up, stop sharing and stop feeling. And stop

it now because you are rocking my precariously perched boat and if you

capsize it I will never be able to get this family back under control

again. "

I call bullshit on the thick skin. No one has it. It means mom is an asshole

and you are supposed to bend over and take whatever she wants to dish out

simply because it makes it easier for dad to enable her shitty behavior.

God enablers really piss me off sometimes!!!!!!!!!!

> **

>

>

>

>

> ,

>

> Wow, that really resonated with me! I fight so hard not to take things

> personally and I am always naturally defensive, to the point where I feel

> like I survived a war. Maybe that is why so many of us have anxiety issues.

>

> How do we go about finding a therapist that understands these issues? I

> have tried to find a therapist before, but I had no idea how to find the

> right one so I gave up and tried to deal with everything myself.

>

> natalia

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

> would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my

> attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture

> of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends

> she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen

> her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all

> over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to

> need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for

> me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and

> was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which she

> always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > >

> > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

> hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking

> having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a

> thick skin with someone you love?

> >

>

>

>

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bpdcentral has a page on finding a therapist, but it looks like it might be

geared for BPD therapy. It might be helpful:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.php

When I got started, I did not have a lot of money. So I did not have a lot of

choice. I did an intake at my local community mental health center and got a

therapist that was fairly new; she was finishing her residency. But she was

really good for me; I lucked out. When my grant ran out, I went to a clinic

where all the therapist were students. One of the students I was his first

client ever. Beggers can't be choosers and I took whatever I could get.

Finally, I qualified for medicare and I got to work with a very experienced

therapist for over a year. This was very helpful. He diagnosed me with a DX

that fit me well (Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder). I had to move, so

switched to a therapist in my area that was not as experienced.

Basically, get the most experienced therapist with the most training as you can

and make it work. Therapy is a joint commitment. I always considered myself as

being in charge of my therapy and my medical treatment plan. Even when all I

had was a therapist whom I was his first client ever, I made it work and he was

able to partner with me and help me get my identity a little stronger. He was

just a kid, fresh out of undergrad. I was old enough to be his father, but we

made it work, because it had to. I was a single father and my daughter needed a

mentally healthy dad. I was willing to do anything to get better.

If you have insurance, call them to find out where to go. If you don't have

insurance and have limited income, search for community services that offer

sliding scale payment arrangements. Many areas have grant program that cost you

nothing if you are low income. Some therapist are willing to take partial

payments until your finances improve.

Seek and you will find. If you want it bad enough, there will be a way. I hope

this helps. The answer to your question is any therapist is better than no

therapist, but get the best one you can.

> > >

> > >

> > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn

daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention

is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my

daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not

recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to

express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was

my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be

unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now

recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed

with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an option, but living with her

careless unintentional hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is

internally painful.

> > >

> > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to hear

about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having some

relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

> >

>

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Thanks again . I will check it out. Sometimes it's hard to imagine telling

someone else all about this stuff....I mean old friends know, but to think about

telling this to someone new..a stranger, it makes me feel exhausted and

humiliated at the same time.

natalia

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn

daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention

is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my

daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not

recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to

express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was

my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be

unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now

recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed

with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an option, but living with her

careless unintentional hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is

internally painful.

> > > >

> > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having

some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

> > >

> >

>

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I hope that you will be able to let the inappropriate, misplaced shame trickle

away; that is one of the worst legacies of having been abused during our

formative years by our mentally ill parents, is being made to feel like we

*deserved* the abuse, because we caused it for being such bad or defective or

unlovable human beings. That is the worst lie they feed us.

I truly believe that shedding the inappropriate shame and guilt is one of the

keys to healing from the damage done to us. Its hard to wrap our brainwashed

minds that our own parents lied to us and used us in this way, that the shame is

theirs, not ours, and they forced a little child to carry their shame, their

responsibilities and their guilt for them. Its a paradigm shift in thinking,

but its a huge step toward our own mental health and healing.

I think that when I go see my very, very mentally ill mother (borderline pd,

narcissistic pd, with some traits of aspd and histrionic pd, and traits of

obsessive-compulsive pd, and now Alzheimers) this fall, I will be able to look

at her, look into her eyes, and feel not one shred of shame, or an ounce of

guilt for my actions. I will be able to look at my mother and feel pity, but no

responsibility for her feelings at all. None. I will do what I can to help

Sister care for her physical and medical needs, meaning, I will contribute to

keeping her cared for as well as possible in the Alzheimer's residential care

home, for as long as possible. But I have no responsibility to make her happy

with herself, inside herself. That's her responsibility, or was.

I believe I am now able to absolve myself, and accept that I have done nothing

to feel guilty about, nothing to feel ashamed of. I withdrew from my mother

because she is a hot stove that burned me, and there is no shame in jerking your

hand away from a hot stove to save it from burning.

-Annie

>

>

>

> Thanks again . I will check it out. Sometimes it's hard to imagine

telling someone else all about this stuff....I mean old friends know, but to

think about telling this to someone new..a stranger, it makes me feel exhausted

and humiliated at the same time.

>

> natalia

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Ya, I totally hear what you are saying. I felt the same way when I start

therapy. I vowed I would not cry, because I thought I would not be able to

handle the embarrassment and same if I did cry in front of a stranger. I got

through the intake ok, but the second session connected with my heart fast and

strong. All I did for the first two months was cry. Sometimes I would cry so

hard I had to breath with a paper bag over my mouth, to prevent

hyperventilation. I had to learn how to cry.

That is what therapy is all about. If you are not crying, something is wrong

and you should probably switch therapist. Crying is what we have been denied as

children; we were not allowed to cry. When we cried as children, we were made

to feel bad by the BP parent. It is no wonder we try so hard not to ever cry.

But crying is absolutely necessary; it is natural and healthy and we have a lot

of catching up to do.

Once you get over the fear, crying becomes a good thing. It is the first stage

of healing. It will be scary at first, you will apologize for it and try to

hold it back, but eventually you will learn to let it flow naturally. It is ok

to cry, even if you are a man.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn

daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention

is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my

daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not

recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to

express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was

my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be

unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now

recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed

with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an option, but living with her

careless unintentional hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is

internally painful.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having

some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Girlscout, you are also right. However, we don't have to be angry anymore. We

are adults; we have the option to heal and let go of the anger. There are all

kinds of " assholes " in this world, but we don't have to let them control us

anymore. We can start being ourselves, despite the " assholes. " We can find

peace. I assure you, it is possible. I did it :) Well, I still get angry;

everyone does. I just don't let it steal my joy. Their being an " asshole " has

nothing to do with me; the are an " asshole " because they did not get what they

needed in childhood, like we didn't.

You are a fighter; we are alike in that aspect. We did the only thing we knew

how to do in response to abuse; we fight back. Even as children, we knew

something was wrong and it wasn't all me. We learned how to be defensive and

rebellious. I feel sorry for those that did not fight.

However, as we grew to adulthood, this defensiveness started getting us in

trouble. It affected our relationships with friends, employers,

authorities...everyone. We are not in harmony with the world around us and we

don't know why. We are still under the assumption that something is wrong and

it is not us. But it is us; we have become too defensive and jumpy.

I totally understand what you are saying. I have been there and am still

recovering. What happened to us as children hurt. It sucked. We can heal

though. We deserve to heal. We deserve not to be angry anymore.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> > because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

> > would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> > newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my

> > attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture

> > of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends

> > she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen

> > her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all

> > over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to

> > need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for

> > me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and

> > was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> > option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which she

> > always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > > >

> > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

> > hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking

> > having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> > find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a

> > thick skin with someone you love?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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Great points - if someone has the experience of a caring validating nurturing

figure in childhood, that gets internalized into the psyche. So in a way a

child can be " given " a thick skin by being given enough of that experience by a

caring adult. And as an adult if the therapeutic relationship is good enough

it can start to function in that same role. I never had anyone growing up to

say my mother was acting crazy even when she really was and of course the worst

of it was with no witnesses. I came across an old diary from when I was about

eleven that really shocked me one time - in it I talked about how I was bad and

always screwing up, how my mother was going to be mad at me again. It was so

sad because I had completely bought this view of myself - and I was a straight A

student who never got into trouble.

In one particular entry the terrible sin I had committed was that she had told

me to tell some relatives visiting from another town some driving instructions

on how to get to our house. I tried to tell them the right thing but they got

lost and she was furious. I was eleven, I did not even know how to drive! How

was I supposed to give instructions about freeways, exits, roads? But there

was no one to witness her anger, no one to tell me it's crazy to ask a person

who doesn't drive to give another person driving directions. All I knew was my

mother was mad at me AGAIN and I was the bad one. No chance of having a thick

skin there.

Eliza

> >

> >

> > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand, because

everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they would never

be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a newborn daughter

and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my attention is turned

from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture of my daughter in a

text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends she does not recognize her

even though it was only a week since she's seen her. I tried to express my

feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all over her. " This was my attempt

to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to need to learn how to be unaffected

by her actions and words. It is hard for me because I just now recognized her

BPD traits since having a newborn and was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting

her out of my life is not an option, but living with her careless unintentional

hurtful ways which she always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> >

> > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to hear

about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking having some

relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can find the right

balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a thick skin with

someone you love?

>

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Ha ha ha PDFF actually I have never in my life had problems like the ones

you mention because of anger. I've had lots and lots of problems because I

pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please and thank you and

how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse.

Anger had never been a problem for me - except in the sense of inverting it

into shame and depression - in fact, i find accessing it to be quite

empowering. Its been a difficult practice for me - to actually feel it is ok

to respond from a place of anger rather than cowtowing. It's something I

plan to continue to work on for a while yet.

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 2:10 PM, eliza92@... <

eliza92@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Great points - if someone has the experience of a caring validating

> nurturing figure in childhood, that gets internalized into the psyche. So in

> a way a child can be " given " a thick skin by being given enough of that

> experience by a caring adult. And as an adult if the therapeutic

> relationship is good enough it can start to function in that same role. I

> never had anyone growing up to say my mother was acting crazy even when she

> really was and of course the worst of it was with no witnesses. I came

> across an old diary from when I was about eleven that really shocked me one

> time - in it I talked about how I was bad and always screwing up, how my

> mother was going to be mad at me again. It was so sad because I had

> completely bought this view of myself - and I was a straight A student who

> never got into trouble.

>

> In one particular entry the terrible sin I had committed was that she had

> told me to tell some relatives visiting from another town some driving

> instructions on how to get to our house. I tried to tell them the right

> thing but they got lost and she was furious. I was eleven, I did not even

> know how to drive! How was I supposed to give instructions about freeways,

> exits, roads? But there was no one to witness her anger, no one to tell me

> it's crazy to ask a person who doesn't drive to give another person driving

> directions. All I knew was my mother was mad at me AGAIN and I was the bad

> one. No chance of having a thick skin there.

>

> Eliza

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

> would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my

> attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture

> of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends

> she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen

> her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all

> over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to

> need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for

> me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and

> was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which she

> always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > >

> > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

> hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking

> having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a

> thick skin with someone you love?

> >

>

>

>

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girlscout, maybe you are not like me as a child. I was a fighter toward my

abuser; coined oppositional/defiant. I was always that way, but it got much

worse as puberty kicked in. The more defiant I became, the more abusive BP

mother was. We were the perfect storm. I became a very dark and depressed

person.

As a result, our family was high conflict. What I needed was someone to

acknowledge the truth, that something was very wrong and I was not to blame. I

knew that something was wrong, but no one was acknowledging it. BP mother would

spin her reality to everyone so that they thought I was the problem. All she

had to do is point to my behavior. I was the perfect scape goat I suppose.

Everyone just assumed I was a bad kid and my mom was so good at being the

victim/martyr. She did all the right things, she was a leader at our church,

attending 12 step meetings for co-dependent parents, active at my school. No

one had a clue what really happened in our family. Everyone was perfectly duped

into thinking I was the problem and my poor mother was just a long suffering

victim.

I was never shown or guided how to handle the abuse, so I did what came natural

to me. I think I was different than most kids; most kids do exactly as you

describe, " I pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please and thank

you and how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse. " That just never

made sense to me; it still doesn't. As a child, retaliation made sense. No one

was around to show me anything else.

I lashed out at my abuser, regardless off the consequences. As far as I was

concerned, it was a death match (metaphorically). If mom wanted to fight, I was

going to give her the fight of her life. Things probably would have got really

bad if the divorce had not happened. My parents split custody, so that my

brother went with my mom and I went with my dad. My brother always wanted to be

with dad too, I was the lucky one.

My dad was good for me. He was never good at nurture, but he was non-judgmental

and that was important, because I still had a lot of acting out to do. Going

into my teen years, I had a lot of anger stored inside, because of my mother.

No matter what I did, his love never changed (unlike BP-mother's conditional

love). I could have used some nurture, but that just was not in the cards for

my childhood. I am fortunate to have had some unconditional love after the

divorce.

That is my story. My brother was the compliant one and he is dead now, due to a

heroin overdose. The enduring pain and self loathing that he felt was too much

for him. His only escape was heroin. Soon heroin at non-lethal levels could

not contain the pain and he kept inching closer and closer to lethal doses. One

day he got too close and died. He did not mean to die, he was only trying to

find relief and the highest doses of heroin were no longer working. My brother

was not open to mental health, but had he gone, I am certain he would have been

diagnosed with BPD. His pain was much greater than mine.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> > because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that they

> > would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> > newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that my

> > attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a picture

> > of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends

> > she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen

> > her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping all

> > over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to

> > need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard for

> > me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and

> > was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> > option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which she

> > always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > > >

> > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

> > hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking

> > having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> > find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing a

> > thick skin with someone you love?

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

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I was also a fighter towards my abusers - my parents. When they screamed at

me, I'd scream back. When they hit me, I'd hit back. When they said horrible

things to me, I'd say horrible things back. Actually, I didn't start hitting

back until I was 14 or so. Yes, my parents and I were, as you put it, " the

perfect storm. "

Outside of the home, I was a peaceful, good-natured person who didn't have

an anger problem at all, probably because no one outside the home screamed

at me, hit me, or said horrible things to me.

My parents had, of course, seen me interacting with others, and took every

occasion to remind me how my screaming and hitting behavior was the REAL me,

and if anyone found out what I was really like, they'd hate me.

So of course I believed them. And I internalized that belief to a huge

degree, and have not been able to get rid of it, despite years and years of

therapy, and despite decades of being an easygoing, nonviolent and

non-abusive person. So I always feel that if someone gets to know the real

me, they'll hate me.

I, like you, needed someone to step in and tell me my behavior was not my

fault, and that I had a right to defend myself from abuse. But that didn't

happen. I didn't talk to anyone outside the family about it. I did try a few

times but gave up, because either they didn't believe me or their attitude

was that it was just a family thing that shouldn't be discussed. It wasn't

until I was in my 30s, and I was in the hospital for depression and an

eating disorder, that I was told by staff, after I had described my parents'

behavior, and how they had treated me, and after the staff had had some

pretty horrible conversations with my parents, that I was told that they

were sick, toxic people.

But my extended family (small as it is) believed my parents when they told

them what a terrible person I was (never mind that I was drug-and-alcohol

free and a straight-A student), and still want nothing to do with me.

Judy

> **

>

>

> girlscout, maybe you are not like me as a child. I was a fighter toward my

> abuser; coined oppositional/defiant. I was always that way, but it got much

> worse as puberty kicked in. The more defiant I became, the more abusive BP

> mother was. We were the perfect storm. I became a very dark and depressed

> person.

>

> As a result, our family was high conflict. What I needed was someone to

> acknowledge the truth, that something was very wrong and I was not to blame.

> I knew that something was wrong, but no one was acknowledging it. BP mother

> would spin her reality to everyone so that they thought I was the problem.

> All she had to do is point to my behavior. I was the perfect scape goat I

> suppose. Everyone just assumed I was a bad kid and my mom was so good at

> being the victim/martyr. She did all the right things, she was a leader at

> our church, attending 12 step meetings for co-dependent parents, active at

> my school. No one had a clue what really happened in our family. Everyone

> was perfectly duped into thinking I was the problem and my poor mother was

> just a long suffering victim.

>

> I was never shown or guided how to handle the abuse, so I did what came

> natural to me. I think I was different than most kids; most kids do exactly

> as you describe, " I pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please

> and thank you and how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse. " That

> just never made sense to me; it still doesn't. As a child, retaliation made

> sense. No one was around to show me anything else.

>

> I lashed out at my abuser, regardless off the consequences. As far as I was

> concerned, it was a death match (metaphorically). If mom wanted to fight, I

> was going to give her the fight of her life. Things probably would have got

> really bad if the divorce had not happened. My parents split custody, so

> that my brother went with my mom and I went with my dad. My brother always

> wanted to be with dad too, I was the lucky one.

>

> My dad was good for me. He was never good at nurture, but he was

> non-judgmental and that was important, because I still had a lot of acting

> out to do. Going into my teen years, I had a lot of anger stored inside,

> because of my mother. No matter what I did, his love never changed (unlike

> BP-mother's conditional love). I could have used some nurture, but that just

> was not in the cards for my childhood. I am fortunate to have had some

> unconditional love after the divorce.

>

> That is my story. My brother was the compliant one and he is dead now, due

> to a heroin overdose. The enduring pain and self loathing that he felt was

> too much for him. His only escape was heroin. Soon heroin at non-lethal

> levels could not contain the pain and he kept inching closer and closer to

> lethal doses. One day he got too close and died. He did not mean to die, he

> was only trying to find relief and the highest doses of heroin were no

> longer working. My brother was not open to mental health, but had he gone, I

> am certain he would have been diagnosed with BPD. His pain was much greater

> than mine.

>

>

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I personally believe that you've stated an accurate point: the children of

abusive, personality-disordered parents who have the inner resilience to fight

back manage to survive their childhood somewhat less damaged than the children

with less resilience who are overwhelmed and absorbed by their abusive parent,

" broken " (their own will and sense of individuality is destroyed) and forced

into compliant enmeshment.

In my own case, I was less resilient, I was mostly the " golden " child because I

was " broken " pretty early on in life and became enmeshed with nada and dad well

into adulthood, while my younger Sister, the " all bad " child, the " scapegoat "

child of the family, managed to individuate earlier in life, to separate

physically and emotionally from our parents, and have a more well-rounded and

normal adult life than I have had.

So, let's hear it for the fighters!

-Annie

>

> girlscout, maybe you are not like me as a child. I was a fighter toward my

abuser; coined oppositional/defiant. I was always that way, but it got much

worse as puberty kicked in. The more defiant I became, the more abusive BP

mother was. We were the perfect storm. I became a very dark and depressed

person.

>

> As a result, our family was high conflict. What I needed was someone to

acknowledge the truth, that something was very wrong and I was not to blame. I

knew that something was wrong, but no one was acknowledging it. BP mother would

spin her reality to everyone so that they thought I was the problem. All she

had to do is point to my behavior. I was the perfect scape goat I suppose.

Everyone just assumed I was a bad kid and my mom was so good at being the

victim/martyr. She did all the right things, she was a leader at our church,

attending 12 step meetings for co-dependent parents, active at my school. No

one had a clue what really happened in our family. Everyone was perfectly duped

into thinking I was the problem and my poor mother was just a long suffering

victim.

>

> I was never shown or guided how to handle the abuse, so I did what came

natural to me. I think I was different than most kids; most kids do exactly as

you describe, " I pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please and

thank you and how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse. " That just

never made sense to me; it still doesn't. As a child, retaliation made sense.

No one was around to show me anything else.

>

> I lashed out at my abuser, regardless off the consequences. As far as I was

concerned, it was a death match (metaphorically). If mom wanted to fight, I was

going to give her the fight of her life. Things probably would have got really

bad if the divorce had not happened. My parents split custody, so that my

brother went with my mom and I went with my dad. My brother always wanted to be

with dad too, I was the lucky one.

>

> My dad was good for me. He was never good at nurture, but he was

non-judgmental and that was important, because I still had a lot of acting out

to do. Going into my teen years, I had a lot of anger stored inside, because of

my mother. No matter what I did, his love never changed (unlike BP-mother's

conditional love). I could have used some nurture, but that just was not in the

cards for my childhood. I am fortunate to have had some unconditional love

after the divorce.

>

> That is my story. My brother was the compliant one and he is dead now, due to

a heroin overdose. The enduring pain and self loathing that he felt was too

much for him. His only escape was heroin. Soon heroin at non-lethal levels

could not contain the pain and he kept inching closer and closer to lethal

doses. One day he got too close and died. He did not mean to die, he was only

trying to find relief and the highest doses of heroin were no longer working.

My brother was not open to mental health, but had he gone, I am certain he would

have been diagnosed with BPD. His pain was much greater than mine.

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My BPD Mom tried while I was still at school to say: if they knew the real

shouting angry you, no one would want to continue being your friend. Well, I

did scream back at her and shout back the words right back at her - but not as

loud as we could as we were afraid she would come back and slap us. Anyway, I

didn't believe her at the time, I was a straight A student as well and voted

" friendliest " and " most athletic " in school, plus I got the most calls out of

anyone in the house - I had that for validation, otherwise, God knows how I

would have felt! So I guess I was lucky I had school for validation! My brother

and I were a team - us against Mom, and by God did we fight back, she called us

the " gang " , and in a way, we still are. Though for a few of our college years

she tried to split us up by telling lies to each of us, about the other. She

succeeded in parting us for a while, we hated each other for a while, but after

a few years we found what she did to us and decided she'd never get thru to

parting us again - and we are thick as thieves now.

N

> I personally believe that you've stated an accurate point: the children of

abusive, personality-disordered parents who have the inner resilience to fight

back manage to survive their childhood somewhat less damaged than the children

with less resilience who are overwhelmed and absorbed by their abusive parent,

" broken " (their own will and sense of individuality is destroyed) and forced

into compliant enmeshment.

>

> In my own case, I was less resilient, I was mostly the " golden " child because

I was " broken " pretty early on in life and became enmeshed with nada and dad

well into adulthood, while my younger Sister, the " all bad " child, the

" scapegoat " child of the family, managed to individuate earlier in life, to

separate physically and emotionally from our parents, and have a more

well-rounded and normal adult life than I have had.

>

> So, let's hear it for the fighters!

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > girlscout, maybe you are not like me as a child. I was a fighter toward my

abuser; coined oppositional/defiant. I was always that way, but it got much

worse as puberty kicked in. The more defiant I became, the more abusive BP

mother was. We were the perfect storm. I became a very dark and depressed

person.

> >

> > As a result, our family was high conflict. What I needed was someone to

acknowledge the truth, that something was very wrong and I was not to blame. I

knew that something was wrong, but no one was acknowledging it. BP mother would

spin her reality to everyone so that they thought I was the problem. All she had

to do is point to my behavior. I was the perfect scape goat I suppose. Everyone

just assumed I was a bad kid and my mom was so good at being the victim/martyr.

She did all the right things, she was a leader at our church, attending 12 step

meetings for co-dependent parents, active at my school. No one had a clue what

really happened in our family. Everyone was perfectly duped into thinking I was

the problem and my poor mother was just a long suffering victim.

> >

> > I was never shown or guided how to handle the abuse, so I did what came

natural to me. I think I was different than most kids; most kids do exactly as

you describe, " I pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please and

thank you and how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse. " That just

never made sense to me; it still doesn't. As a child, retaliation made sense. No

one was around to show me anything else.

> >

> > I lashed out at my abuser, regardless off the consequences. As far as I was

concerned, it was a death match (metaphorically). If mom wanted to fight, I was

going to give her the fight of her life. Things probably would have got really

bad if the divorce had not happened. My parents split custody, so that my

brother went with my mom and I went with my dad. My brother always wanted to be

with dad too, I was the lucky one.

> >

> > My dad was good for me. He was never good at nurture, but he was

non-judgmental and that was important, because I still had a lot of acting out

to do. Going into my teen years, I had a lot of anger stored inside, because of

my mother. No matter what I did, his love never changed (unlike BP-mother's

conditional love). I could have used some nurture, but that just was not in the

cards for my childhood. I am fortunate to have had some unconditional love after

the divorce.

> >

> > That is my story. My brother was the compliant one and he is dead now, due

to a heroin overdose. The enduring pain and self loathing that he felt was too

much for him. His only escape was heroin. Soon heroin at non-lethal levels could

not contain the pain and he kept inching closer and closer to lethal doses. One

day he got too close and died. He did not mean to die, he was only trying to

find relief and the highest doses of heroin were no longer working. My brother

was not open to mental health, but had he gone, I am certain he would have been

diagnosed with BPD. His pain was much greater than mine.

>

>

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I HATE that thing that personality disordered parents do: its like they are

cursing us. Like a witch casting an evil spell, the pd parent points at her

child and pronounces, " You are (bad, ugly, stupid, a waste of space, no good,

unlovable, evil, etc.,) and nobody who gets to really know you will love you. "

The curse of the pd parent. And some, like my nada, follow their curse with,

" ... but I love you anyway, you disgusting, repulsive piece of crap, because I'm

your mother and I have to. "

Yes: outside validation is crucial. Absolutely crucial for healing, in my

opinion.

The abuse victim needs reassurance and validation that the abuse was NOT

deserved, was NOT his or her fault, and it happened only because the abuser/the

parent is mentally ill and toxic.

In my opinion.

-Annie

>

> I was also a fighter towards my abusers - my parents. When they screamed at

> me, I'd scream back. When they hit me, I'd hit back. When they said horrible

> things to me, I'd say horrible things back. Actually, I didn't start hitting

> back until I was 14 or so. Yes, my parents and I were, as you put it, " the

> perfect storm. "

> Outside of the home, I was a peaceful, good-natured person who didn't have

> an anger problem at all, probably because no one outside the home screamed

> at me, hit me, or said horrible things to me.

> My parents had, of course, seen me interacting with others, and took every

> occasion to remind me how my screaming and hitting behavior was the REAL me,

> and if anyone found out what I was really like, they'd hate me.

> So of course I believed them. And I internalized that belief to a huge

> degree, and have not been able to get rid of it, despite years and years of

> therapy, and despite decades of being an easygoing, nonviolent and

> non-abusive person. So I always feel that if someone gets to know the real

> me, they'll hate me.

> I, like you, needed someone to step in and tell me my behavior was not my

> fault, and that I had a right to defend myself from abuse. But that didn't

> happen. I didn't talk to anyone outside the family about it. I did try a few

> times but gave up, because either they didn't believe me or their attitude

> was that it was just a family thing that shouldn't be discussed. It wasn't

> until I was in my 30s, and I was in the hospital for depression and an

> eating disorder, that I was told by staff, after I had described my parents'

> behavior, and how they had treated me, and after the staff had had some

> pretty horrible conversations with my parents, that I was told that they

> were sick, toxic people.

> But my extended family (small as it is) believed my parents when they told

> them what a terrible person I was (never mind that I was drug-and-alcohol

> free and a straight-A student), and still want nothing to do with me.

> Judy

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That's wonderful, I'm glad your brother and you are a " team " ! Freakin' " A " for

awesome. My younger Sister and I became friends in adulthood, and its really

important to me that I have her friendship and validation. I am grateful for

it. We have each other's backs, and its awesome too.

-Annie

>

> My BPD Mom tried while I was still at school to say: if they knew the real

shouting angry you, no one would want to continue being your friend. Well, I

did scream back at her and shout back the words right back at her - but not as

loud as we could as we were afraid she would come back and slap us. Anyway, I

didn't believe her at the time, I was a straight A student as well and voted

" friendliest " and " most athletic " in school, plus I got the most calls out of

anyone in the house - I had that for validation, otherwise, God knows how I

would have felt! So I guess I was lucky I had school for validation! My brother

and I were a team - us against Mom, and by God did we fight back, she called us

the " gang " , and in a way, we still are. Though for a few of our college years

she tried to split us up by telling lies to each of us, about the other. She

succeeded in parting us for a while, we hated each other for a while, but after

a few years we found what she did to us and decided she'd never get thru to

parting us again - and we are thick as thieves now.

>

> N

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That described me perfectly. I never believed the horrible things nada told me,

I just hated her for it all. Even as a young kid I rebelled against her and

would tell her during her rages, " You won't break me! " . As I got older, I

wouldn't take her abuse sitting down, we got into actual physical fights. I just

couldn't understand why I was supposed to sit there and allow her to hit me. She

wouldn't just smack me, she would throw things at me and even pull the hair out

of my head. It was nasty. Her husband even dragged me out of the house one day

(middle school age) and beat me with a cast iron pan. When I limped back to the

house I said to myself, " Remember this, remember this! " Because I was afraid I

was going to block it out and create a repressed memory that would surface

someday. I didn't want to deal with that later, I wanted to try to handle it on

my own then and there. It didn't really work though, since obviously I am still

talking about this, decades later.

The one thing that helped me through was a kind of talk therapy I accidentally

created for myself. Nada and her monster husband would punish me for MONTHS at a

time. Like if I said something wrong, all hell would break loose and instantly

get grounded for 4 weeks. Oh, say something else, how about another 4 weeks?

Thankfully school was a good refuge. At home, I would sit in my room, with a

mirror, and smile at myself and tell myself I was pretty and had a good future

and would get away from that hell.

I DID IT TOO!!!!

Still have the nightmares though...mostly about tornadoes. I read that indicated

repressed rage.

Natalia

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> > > because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that

they

> > > would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> > > newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact that

my

> > > attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a

picture

> > > of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She pretends

> > > she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's seen

> > > her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping

all

> > > over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I to

> > > need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard

for

> > > me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn and

> > > was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> > > option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which she

> > > always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry to

> > > hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am thinking

> > > having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> > > find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on developing

a

> > > thick skin with someone you love?

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

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Parents who beat their children with objects and yank their hair out are

criminals in my opinion; such acts are criminal child abuse.

If such attacks were to be directed at another adult, your parents would sure as

hell be hauled into court on assault and battery charges, would be paying

through the nose for damages, and probably be doing some serious jail time. But

somehow its " OK " for parents to beat the living crap out of their children; as

long as the injuries are just sub-clinical enough to keep the child out of the

hospital, and as long as the damage is inflicted on parts of the child's body

that can be covered and not easily observed. They call it " parenting " or " tough

love " . Yeah. Right.

Its just wrong that children have no human rights or civil rights in these

matters. (I'm all for making lawyers available to children, so that children

can sue their parents on their own behalf, same as an adult, for " divorce " and

for child support payments in a different environment, like a nice boarding

school, or with nice relatives, etc. Or so children can sue pedophiles who

molest them, or sue the bullies who assault them. Make em pay. Get em some

jail time. But I'm kind of a radical type in some ways.)

Children are made to feel too ashamed of their punishments to speak of them

because they are made to feel that the emotional or physical battering was

deserved.

And the child may feel (or have actually experienced) that if they do tell, they

may not be believed, and shamed by the person they confide in as being a liar.

Or even worse, if they do tell and they are believed, and the adult they tell

then talks to their parents about it, the punishments will probably get even

worse. Much worse: the child has added " disloyalty " to his list of crimes, in

his parents' eyes.

What a fighter you were! Kudos to you! I admire the kids who fought back.

I've had the occasional " tornado " nightmare too, but more frequently I have the

nightmare of being on the beach, looking out to sea, and seeing a giant, silent

wall of water bearing down on me; the most enormous wave you can imagine. Total

annihilation, no possible escape. And I've had dreams of less gigantic waves,

but still dangerously large ocean waves breaking apart the rocks of the shore,

destroying boats, breaking into the building I'm in. Those are probably my nada

as well, like the other giant monsters; just in natural disaster form.

-Annie

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to understand,

> > > > because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways that

they

> > > > would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I have a

> > > > newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the fact

that my

> > > > attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her a

picture

> > > > of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She

pretends

> > > > she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since she's

seen

> > > > her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it " jumping

all

> > > > over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt. So I

to

> > > > need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is hard

for

> > > > me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a newborn

and

> > > > was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not an

> > > > option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways which

she

> > > > always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am sorry

to

> > > > hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am

thinking

> > > > having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if you can

> > > > find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on

developing a

> > > > thick skin with someone you love?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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No, I didn't fight back. If you asked my nada, I would be the scapegoat,

pure evil. If you asked my fada I would be the hero and caregiver of the

family. I swallowed it down. I did slap my nada in the face once around age

14, when I started to come alive. You would have thought I was a dead thing

when I was a kid.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 1:49 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Parents who beat their children with objects and yank their hair out are

> criminals in my opinion; such acts are criminal child abuse.

>

> If such attacks were to be directed at another adult, your parents would

> sure as hell be hauled into court on assault and battery charges, would be

> paying through the nose for damages, and probably be doing some serious jail

> time. But somehow its " OK " for parents to beat the living crap out of their

> children; as long as the injuries are just sub-clinical enough to keep the

> child out of the hospital, and as long as the damage is inflicted on parts

> of the child's body that can be covered and not easily observed. They call

> it " parenting " or " tough love " . Yeah. Right.

>

> Its just wrong that children have no human rights or civil rights in these

> matters. (I'm all for making lawyers available to children, so that children

> can sue their parents on their own behalf, same as an adult, for " divorce "

> and for child support payments in a different environment, like a nice

> boarding school, or with nice relatives, etc. Or so children can sue

> pedophiles who molest them, or sue the bullies who assault them. Make em

> pay. Get em some jail time. Butack I'm kind of a radical type in some ways.)

>

>

> Children are made to feel too ashamed of their punishments to speak of them

> because they are made to feel that the emotional or physical battering was

> deserved.

>

> And the child may feel (or have actually experienced) that if they do tell,

> they may not be believed, and shamed by the person they confide in as being

> a liar. Or even worse, if they do tell and they are believed, and the adult

> they tell then talks to their parents about it, the punishments will

> probably get even worse. Much worse: the child has added " disloyalty " to his

> list of crimes, in his parents' eyes.

>

> What a fighter you were! Kudos to you! I admire the kids who fought back.

>

> I've had the occasional " tornado " nightmare too, but more frequently I have

> the nightmare of being on the beach, looking out to sea, and seeing a giant,

> silent wall of water bearing down on me; the most enormous wave you can

> imagine. Total annihilation, no possible escape. And I've had dreams of less

> gigantic waves, but still dangerously large ocean waves breaking apart the

> rocks of the shore, destroying boats, breaking into the building I'm in.

> Those are probably my nada as well, like the other giant monsters; just in

> natural disaster form.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is my first posting too. I am looking for people to

> understand,

> > > > > because everyone that knows by BPD mother are so used to her ways

> that they

> > > > > would never be able to conceptualize " unintended " hurtful ways. I

> have a

> > > > > newborn daughter and my mother is incapable of dealing with the

> fact that my

> > > > > attention is turned from her and onto my daughter. I even sent her

> a picture

> > > > > of my daughter in a text and she replies with " who is this. " She

> pretends

> > > > > she does not recognize her even though it was only a week since

> she's seen

> > > > > her. I tried to express my feelings to her...but she called it

> " jumping all

> > > > > over her. " This was my attempt to be thoughtful and I end up hurt.

> So I to

> > > > > need to learn how to be unaffected by her actions and words. It is

> hard for

> > > > > me because I just now recognized her BPD traits since having a

> newborn and

> > > > > was previously enmeshed with her. Cutting her out of my life is not

> an

> > > > > option, but living with her careless unintentional hurtful ways

> which she

> > > > > always has an excuse for is internally painful.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Chloe..treasure that your sister understands your pain. I am

> sorry to

> > > > > hear about your father...grief is always a painful process. I am

> thinking

> > > > > having some relationship with your mother is best for you son if

> you can

> > > > > find the right balance, boundaries and thick skin. Any tips on

> developing a

> > > > > thick skin with someone you love?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Oh, I get those tornado dreams too! To be fair, most of my nightmares are about

predators trying to hunt me down, but when I get the natural disaster ones,

they're always about tornadoes.

Add me to the list of people who fought back. God, my freshman year of high

school I went to a private small school about 45 minutes away from our house.

Nada had to drive me home every day and my dad told me he actually anticipated a

call from her *every day* when we got home about what a horrible daughter I was

and how rebellious I was. We seriously got to the point that we wouldn't even

make it 2 min. down the road before we were both screaming our heads off at each

other. I tried just shutting down and ignoring her completely, but she would

just keep poking and prodding until she got a reaction from me. Then she goes

and acts like the freaking victim. -_-

I was branded as the trouble-making, argumentative kid growing up, then when I

moved away to college, the title was passed on to one of my younger brothers.

We'll see how long it takes for it to shift to someone else once he's gone...

Subject: Re: Got Thick Skin?

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 12:05 PM

That described me perfectly. I never believed the horrible things nada told me,

I just hated her for it all. Even as a young kid I rebelled against her and

would tell her during her rages, " You won't break me! " . As I got older, I

wouldn't take her abuse sitting down, we got into actual physical fights. I just

couldn't understand why I was supposed to sit there and allow her to hit me. She

wouldn't just smack me, she would throw things at me and even pull the hair out

of my head. It was nasty. Her husband even dragged me out of the house one day

(middle school age) and beat me with a cast iron pan. When I limped back to the

house I said to myself, " Remember this, remember this! " Because I was afraid I

was going to block it out and create a repressed memory that would surface

someday. I didn't want to deal with that later, I wanted to try to handle it on

my own then and there. It didn't really work though, since obviously I am still

talking about this,

decades later.

The one thing that helped me through was a kind of talk therapy I accidentally

created for myself. Nada and her monster husband would punish me for MONTHS at a

time. Like if I said something wrong, all hell would break loose and instantly

get grounded for 4 weeks. Oh, say something else, how about another 4 weeks?

Thankfully school was a good refuge. At home, I would sit in my room, with a

mirror, and smile at myself and tell myself I was pretty and had a good future

and would get away from that hell.

I DID IT TOO!!!!

Still have the nightmares though...mostly about tornadoes. I read that indicated

repressed rage.

Natalia

>

> girlscout, maybe you are not like me as a child. I was a fighter toward my

abuser; coined oppositional/defiant. I was always that way, but it got much

worse as puberty kicked in. The more defiant I became, the more abusive BP

mother was. We were the perfect storm. I became a very dark and depressed

person.

>

> As a result, our family was high conflict. What I needed was someone to

acknowledge the truth, that something was very wrong and I was not to blame. I

knew that something was wrong, but no one was acknowledging it. BP mother would

spin her reality to everyone so that they thought I was the problem. All she

had to do is point to my behavior. I was the perfect scape goat I suppose.

Everyone just assumed I was a bad kid and my mom was so good at being the

victim/martyr. She did all the right things, she was a leader at our church,

attending 12 step meetings for co-dependent parents, active at my school. No

one had a clue what really happened in our family. Everyone was perfectly duped

into thinking I was the problem and my poor mother was just a long suffering

victim.

>

> I was never shown or guided how to handle the abuse, so I did what came

natural to me. I think I was different than most kids; most kids do exactly as

you describe, " I pasted a smile on my face and continued with the please and

thank you and how else can I help yous even in the face of abuse. " That just

never made sense to me; it still doesn't. As a child, retaliation made sense.

No one was around to show me anything else.

>

> I lashed out at my abuser, regardless off the consequences. As far as I was

concerned, it was a death match (metaphorically). If mom wanted to fight, I was

going to give her the fight of her life. Things probably would have got really

bad if the divorce had not happened. My parents split custody, so that my

brother went with my mom and I went with my dad. My brother always wanted to be

with dad too, I was the lucky one.

>

> My dad was good for me. He was never good at nurture, but he was

non-judgmental and that was important, because I still had a lot of acting out

to do. Going into my teen years, I had a lot of anger stored inside, because of

my mother. No matter what I did, his love never changed (unlike BP-mother's

conditional love). I could have used some nurture, but that just was not in the

cards for my childhood. I am fortunate to have had some unconditional love

after the divorce.

>

> That is my story. My brother was the compliant one and he is dead now, due to

a heroin overdose. The enduring pain and self loathing that he felt was too

much for him. His only escape was heroin. Soon heroin at non-lethal levels

could not contain the pain and he kept inching closer and closer to lethal

doses. One day he got too close and died. He did not mean to die, he was only

trying to find relief and the highest doses of heroin were no longer working.

My brother was not open to mental health, but had he gone, I am certain he would

have been diagnosed with BPD. His pain was much greater than mine.

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Ah, the " naked in public " dreams. Wow, I haven't had one of those in, well,

years and years, now. I used to have those rather often. Weirdly, I was never

completely naked; my version of that dream had me either in my underwear in

public, or topless.

Yes, I can see how that that particular dream would be an expression of feeling

anxiety about being too vulnerable in general, or vulnerable to being shamed:

public shame.

-Annie

> >

> >

>

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My nightmares were all about my parent's house aka hoarders nest. My T and I

went at it in depth and I haven't had one in ooh 8 months.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:34 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Ah, the " naked in public " dreams. Wow, I haven't had one of those in, well,

> years and years, now. I used to have those rather often. Weirdly, I was

> never completely naked; my version of that dream had me either in my

> underwear in public, or topless.

>

> Yes, I can see how that that particular dream would be an expression of

> feeling anxiety about being too vulnerable in general, or vulnerable to

> being shamed: public shame.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

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