Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. Natalia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Yep. I was mistaken for a boy for most of elementary school. In fairness, I was something of a tomboy anyway (still am, I guess), but I still would have liked to have been recognized as a girl. I just didn't have any say over how my hair looked. Up until kindergarten I had very long hair and I remember many excrutiating and anger-filled hairbrushing sessions and ponytails whose tension can only be described as punitive. I can't recall a single time when I was getting my hair brushed that I wasn't crying. In contrast to your mother, however, my mother was all about looking nice at any cost. We actually were rather poor but we had pretty nice clothes, considering. Nice clothes but no college fund...that was a dandy little surprise when the time came. > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > Natalia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Same here - my mother was all about what made her look good. She would do my hair in all kinds of french braids and pretty-girl styles. I was a tomboy in behaviour but I had long blonde hair that was past my butt until I was 20. In contrast to chopping it - she convinced me that cutting it off would be the most horrible experience of my life, like amputating an arm. I thought my hair was my identity. Turns out that it's not. Still, I sat through gruelling styling sessions for picture days and special events, so I would look like a little princess/doll/whatever. I remember the intense pain and headaches, and how the tail of the comb scraped across my skull...singeing my skin with the curler if I fidgeted. I was in ballet for a few years too, which also meant stage makeup and such as well. Bleh. K > > > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > > > Natalia > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I think its worse than that. There have been threads on here in earlier years about this phenomenon: " hair abuse. " There have been many posts about bpd mothers who sadistically and deliberately hurt their daughters with painfully rough, abusive hair combing and brushing, to the point of yanking out bloody pieces of scalp, and even giving their daughter first or second-degree burns on their child's scalp, neck and ears with hot curling irons, even though the child is screaming in pain and begging the mother to please stop. Or forcing her daughter to hold her head under scalding hot water to shampoo, (or bathe or do dishes in scalding hot water) so the child's skin is burned. I think this kind of sadistic physical abuse is due to hostility, rage, and resentment on the mother's part, and only severely mentally ill, personality-disordered mothers seem to behave in this way. Its criminal child abuse. The mother perhaps will not allow herself to openly admit to herself or say to her child, " I hate you. I wish you were dead. I wish you had never been born. I wish I had aborted you. I'm sick to death of taking care of you, you ungrateful little piece of shit. I wish you would just go away... etc. " But such a mother has just enough self-control and awareness to not actually murder her child... but instead, the nada's resentment and hostility leaks out in sadistic but sub-clinical ways that are nevertheless deliberate and malicious. This is the Witch: the bpd mother who also has antisocial pd, who actually wants to harm her own child and sometimes actually does so. And the whole forced-hair-cuts issue, including forced hair styles that clearly demonstrate to the young daughter that she has no rights or say-so about her own body or her own appearance, that make the child feel ugly or de-sexed or both, are abusive also. Its about control and its about punishment, its not about love or parenting. " Hair abuse " is just another big, red waving flag to me that such persons are way too mentally ill and unstable and just plain old hostile to be raising a child. Their own child becomes the focus of all the pd mother's repressed anger, self-loathing, resentment and frustration, and its just wrong to subject a child to such a dangerously mentally ill primary caregiver. -Annie > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > Natalia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 YES - chopped off, never washed, never bathed (well once a week like we lived on the prairie in the olden days), burns from curling iron, no say in my own hair etc etc et etc. YES what is it about PD people and hair??? Even waif boss goes after mine! On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:16 PM, anuria67854 wrote: > ** > > > I think its worse than that. There have been threads on here in earlier > years about this phenomenon: " hair abuse. " > > There have been many posts about bpd mothers who sadistically and > deliberately hurt their daughters with painfully rough, abusive hair combing > and brushing, to the point of yanking out bloody pieces of scalp, and even > giving their daughter first or second-degree burns on their child's scalp, > neck and ears with hot curling irons, even though the child is screaming in > pain and begging the mother to please stop. Or forcing her daughter to hold > her head under scalding hot water to shampoo, (or bathe or do dishes in > scalding hot water) so the child's skin is burned. > > I think this kind of sadistic physical abuse is due to hostility, rage, and > resentment on the mother's part, and only severely mentally ill, > personality-disordered mothers seem to behave in this way. Its criminal > child abuse. > er m > The mother perhaps will not allow herself to openly admit to herself or say > to her child, " I hate you. I wish you were dead. I wish you had never been > born. I wish I had aborted you. I'm sick to death of taking care of you, you > ungrateful little piece of shit. I wish you would just go away... etc. " > > But such a mother has just enough self-control and awareness to not > actually murder her child... but instead, the nada's resentment and > hostility leaks out in sadistic but sub-clinical ways that are nevertheless > deliberate and malicious. > > This is the Witch: the bpd mother who also has antisocial pd, who actually > wants to harm her own child and sometimes actually does so. > > And the whole forced-hair-cuts issue, including forced hair styles that > clearly demonstrate to the young daughter that she has no rights or say-so > about her own body or her own appearance, that make the child feel ugly or > de-sexed or both, are abusive also. Its about control and its about > punishment, its not about love or parenting. > > " Hair abuse " is just another big, red waving flag to me that such persons > are way too mentally ill and unstable and just plain old hostile to be > raising a child. Their own child becomes the focus of all the pd mother's > repressed anger, self-loathing, resentment and frustration, and its just > wrong to subject a child to such a dangerously mentally ill primary > caregiver. > > -Annie > > > > > > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching > BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair > when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a > few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair > that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every > morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and > scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut > my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later > into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The > thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it > correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my > head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her > to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she > refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look > taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too > for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my > birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything > nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I > just wasn't looked after properly. > > > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these > stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > > > Natalia > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Neglecting the child's hygiene and other forms of neglect (medical neglect, allowing the child to go hungry or scavenge for food or ask for handouts from neighbors, and just general neglect, not giving the child attention or affection, not providing guidance, rules or stability, not seeing to it that the child goes to school, not helping the child with homework or supervising homework or study, etc) is yet another form of child abuse. Emotional and physical neglect says to the child: " You are less than nothing to me. I have better things to do than look at you or speak with you. I don't even want to spend the time it takes to scream at you or punish you. Go away, leave me alone, and don't bother me. " -Annie > > > > > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching > > BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair > > when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a > > few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair > > that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every > > morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and > > scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut > > my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later > > into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The > > thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it > > correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my > > head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her > > to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she > > refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look > > taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too > > for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my > > birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything > > nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I > > just wasn't looked after properly. > > > > > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these > > stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > > > > > Natalia > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Me too, all hacked off even though I BEGGED to have long hair like the other little girls. I was always told, " You won't take care of it. It's too much work for you and I don't want to have to do it. You can't even take care of the hair you have NOW. " LIES. lieslieslieslieslies. As I got older, more into middle school age I started letting it grow out anyway because she couldn't force me to cut it anymore. Then she switched over to passively aggressively telling me how awful it looked (like, " oh, that style really isn't suited for your face. that's why i kept it short when you were younger. " ) I think if mom had been in charge we wouldn't have been clean very often. Luckily my dad usually tossed us in the tub every night (metaphorically tossed, not physically lol). I wonder if that what Nada's parents did to her. The first time I saw a childhood picture of her I thought it was me because we looked so alike! The only way I figured it out was because the picture quality looked old. Subject: Re: Re: Haircuts To: WTOAdultChildren1 Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 1:53 PM YES - chopped off, never washed, never bathed (well once a week like we lived on the prairie in the olden days), burns from curling iron, no say in my own hair etc etc et etc. YES what is it about PD people and hair??? Even waif boss goes after mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 This is so interesting.... I never even thought of it before..but I had a " pixie " when I was in elementary school. Got teased sometimes because made me look like a boy. Got over it. But I definately didn't feel listened to. In middle school had a haircut I hated, got to eventually grow it out, but is sure was a struggle. It wasn't about what I wanted - it was about how I looked, how I made her look? > > > Subject: Re: Re: Haircuts > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 1:53 PM > > YES - chopped off, never washed, never bathed (well once a week like we > lived on the prairie in the olden days), burns from curling iron, no say in > my own hair etc etc et etc. YES what is it about PD people and hair??? Even > waif boss goes after mine! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I had the same exact thing. My nada didn't want to deal with it because I had thick hair and a " sensitive " scalp. I guess I couldn't take the harsh brushing. I was teased about looking like a boy. I just turned 49 and still have long hair just because of the childhood thing. She did criticize how it looked as a teenager. And yes it is all about how it makes her look. She got dragged into family counseling once. The therapist asked her " why did my hair bother her so much? " She bolted out of the office never to return again. To this day, she doesn't mean to criticize but just be careful and dont make a mistake. Felicia Ward Remember that people often have different perceptions of the same reality. You can both be right, and no one has to be wrong, if each of you is willing to let the other person have his or her perceptions and if both of you are willing to compromise. To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Haircuts  This is so interesting.... I never even thought of it before..but I had a " pixie " when I was in elementary school. Got teased sometimes because made me look like a boy. Got over it. But I definately didn't feel listened to. In middle school had a haircut I hated, got to eventually grow it out, but is sure was a struggle. It wasn't about what I wanted - it was about how I looked, how I made her look? > > > Subject: Re: Re: Haircuts > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 1:53 PM > > YES - chopped off, never washed, never bathed (well once a week like we > lived on the prairie in the olden days), burns from curling iron, no say in > my own hair etc etc et etc. YES what is it about PD people and hair??? Even > waif boss goes after mine! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. wow. yeah, hair abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 (((((Chris))))) I'm so sorry you had to endure that; what you describe would feel as traumatizing to me as being mugged in a dark alley, if not worse, because the person raging and screaming at you and hacking off your hair (your beautiful long braids!) with scissors is SUPPOSED to *love you*; that would scare the living crap out of me too. What our mentally ill parents did to us has nothing to do with love; not even partially. In my opinion, anyway. You poor kid. I actually think I would have had a heart attack (even as a child!) if my nada had ever pulled a knife on me or scissors or anything sharp. She just used her hands or dad's belt on me, but just her scary angry eyes could fill me with frozen terror. But how wonderful that your boss's wife was a kind and compassionate person and helped you escape your mother's abuse and find your own apartment. There are good people in this world. -Annie > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Yeah, my Mom forced me to have long hair for the longest time At 12 I decided enough was enough, and I screamed at her to cut it - I said, I'm growing it for you anyway. She hated the sound of that, so she chopped it off, and it wasn't even a good job - worse than that, she got me huge glasses, so you can imagine how I looked. What's funny is that I'm AFRAID to cut my hair now - even back in college, I never really had short hair ever again, she was so critical of short hair. So till now I'm AFRAID of cutting my hair. I shy away from hairdressers too, because they remind me of how critical of my hair my Mom is, she's always telling me how to wear it, what different things I should do with it. My God, you guys have a real eye opener for me. It's time for me to FREE MYSELF FROM THE HAIR MADNESS! I just realized now that " hair " was another way she manipulated me, and I'm STILL adhering to her crazy rules!!! AHHH!! Maybe I'm going to have a whole makeover because of this! N > (((((Chris))))) > I'm so sorry you had to endure that; what you describe would feel as traumatizing to me as being mugged in a dark alley, if not worse, because the person raging and screaming at you and hacking off your hair (your beautiful long braids!) with scissors is SUPPOSED to *love you*; that would scare the living crap out of me too. What our mentally ill parents did to us has nothing to do with love; not even partially. In my opinion, anyway. > > You poor kid. > > I actually think I would have had a heart attack (even as a child!) if my nada had ever pulled a knife on me or scissors or anything sharp. She just used her hands or dad's belt on me, but just her scary angry eyes could fill me with frozen terror. > > But how wonderful that your boss's wife was a kind and compassionate person and helped you escape your mother's abuse and find your own apartment. There are good people in this world. > > -Annie > > > > > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 My mother forced me to have really short hair when every other little girl in my age group had long hair. My hair was really lovely and thick, and I loved having it long, but she didn't want to bother with fixing it, so she had it chopped off into a " pixie " cut, which led to me being laughed at a great deal. When I was 8 or 9, she let it grow for a while, and I was thrilled to have pigtails, which was the fashion at the time, but for some reason she wouldn't allow me to wear ribbons on the pigtails, which was what all the other girls were wearing. And then she had it cut really short again, which devastated me. Now, the reason for this was probably because she was no good with hair, which I understand, because I have no talent whatsoever when it comes to hair-fixing, and since I've been on my own, I have generally kept it short so I don't have to fool with it. But I think if I had a little girl, and all of her peers had long hair, I would understand how she'd feel about " being different, " and make my best effort to learn how to groom a little girl's long hair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Yeah, to this day I too have long hair and don't get into shoes like many of my girlfrinds. Weird comment from me at this point, but it is related. When I was about 10 came home from school to put on my highly coveted fluffy slippers (that were too small and worn, but I so did love those things!). I always kept them in the same place in my closet. They were gone. I looked high and low, asked mom where they were - she didn't look at me from what she was doing, there was a pause - and I knew, she had thrown them away. She acted like she didn't know what I was talking about at first, but then acted vaguely like, " Oh yeah, those old things, oh I think I tossed them out, they were too small and holey " . I truly think to this day I don't give a hoot about shoes because of this incident. Her reaction resulted me in feeling so angry but also shamed that I cared about them and so helpless that I couldn't have them - she had to control it, over fluffy slippers - I can't imagine doing that to my child. > > > > From: Girlscout Cowboy <girlscout.cowboy@> > > Subject: Re: Re: Haircuts > > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 1:53 PM > > > > YES - chopped off, never washed, never bathed (well once a week like we > > lived on the prairie in the olden days), burns from curling iron, no say in > > my own hair etc etc et etc. YES what is it about PD people and hair??? Even > > waif boss goes after mine! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 How horrific! I am so sorry this happened to you.Nuts, just nuts. > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I would cry so much when she 'brushed' my hair, that finally she just stopped. I ended up with a huge rat's nest on top of my head. My 4th grade teacher told me if I showed up like that at school again she'd send me home. Now I have to wonder, why did the teacher blame me and not the parent? Why couldn't my mother brush my hair without causing me so much pain? Now I think that she caused me pain on purpose, she was annoyed at having to take care of me, and was happy when I screamed so hard that she had an 'excuse' to not take care of me, she could claim it was my fault. She could go back to her victim role, poor her for having such a 'difficult daughter'. > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > Natalia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hair was one of my constant battles with my nada growing up. When I was about 8 she kept telling the stylist to make it shorter, until it was above my ears. At that point she finally realized that it was too short for a girl. I still have one of the school pictures that was taken that year and every time I see it I initially wondier if it is a picture of my cousin Ken. When I was a teen, my nada constantly told me that I needed to " do something " about my hair. She often told me that boys and men didn't like long hair and that I'd never get a man if I didn't " do something " about my hair. When I went away to college and met young men worth asking about it, they all told me that they liked long hair and that my mother was wrong. Still my mother kept yelling at me to " do something " about my hair. If she thought she could get away with it, she'd still be telling me to " do something " about my hair. I can also remember battles with her over hair-brushing when I was a younger child. When she did it, it was painful. I don't remember just what she did, but she must have been doing it wrong to make it that traumatic. I think the problem when I was small was that short hair was more convenient for her. Later, her horribly skewed ideas about what people should look like and about how women should interact with men were a large part of the problem. She has spent much of her life doing things to her hair that made it look worse, not better. She started getting streaks of silver at a time when having your hair streaked was really popular. Instead of taking advantage of the streaks, she started using dye to cover them so that she wouldn't " look old " . The dyes she selected were often poor choices. She also chose high-maintenance styles much of the time. I think she eventually became jealous of my hair, which still doesn't have any gray or silver in it at 48. (I would have been pleased with silver streaks, so of course I didn't inherit them.) She's finally given up the dyes and a lot of the styling, probably because she just can't afford to spend money on her hair any more, and it looks so much better. t 03:19 PM 08/22/2011 natalialmbt wrote: >Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started >researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas >chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen >to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can >remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was >nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair >every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would >curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the >hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once >into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a > " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. >The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just >wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and >drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't >want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like >the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to >listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look >taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked >on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling >a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a >liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are >POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked >after properly. > >Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to >tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some >level or another. > >Natalia -- Katrina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 she didn't cut my hair but she would brush it really halfheartedly and make mean comments like, " your hair is just like your Aunt Carla's, you can't do anything with it, " or " you know, small foreheads like yours are a sign of lack of intelligence. " And then she would laugh. My mother has 4 siblings. The first 3 were girls and she is the middle one. I've wondered lately if she took out on me all the frustration of being the middle sister, bullied by her older sister and overlooked in favor of her younger one. She just enjoyed making me feel small and insignificant. > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > Natalia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I too love the idea of " makeover therapy!! " You could perhaps just go in for a day of total, decadent pampering: a facial, full body massage, steaming, soaking, pedicures, manicures, and a new hairstyle (that may or may not involve a trim) or new hair color, and a professional make-up application. Squeee! I'd love me some pampering, that would be heavenly! -Annie > > > > > > > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > > > > > > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > > > > > > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > > > > > > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > > > > > > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > > > > > > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > > > > > > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > > > > > > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > > > > > > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 If you go for a massage, note that there are therapists who specialize in massage for people who have trauma. I recommend checking that out. > > > > > > > > > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > > > > > > > > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > > > > > > > > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > > > > > > > > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > > > > > > > > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > > > > > > > > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > > > > > > > > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > > > > > > > > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > > > > > > > > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 My nada wanted me to be a clone of herself as much as possible, which meant she wanted to cut off my ponytail that I loved when I was about 10 years old. All the girls my age had ponytails then, it was the fashion. I didn't want to lose my ponytail. So nada told me that I had big, ugly ears that stuck out and needed to be covered up, and that my hair was too thin and fine to wear in a ponytail, in an effort to convince me to change hairstyles. Calling me *ugly* was one of her best weapons. I really had no choice in the matter, and it was done. So... a trip to the hairdressers, and chop went the scissors. Then, surprise: nada made me get a permanent which made me look like a chrysanthemum, and then made me style my hair the way she wore hers. That meant sleeping in curlers. I HATED IT. The last thing I wanted was to look like my mother. I loved my ponytail, and it made me feel girly. I felt, well, castrated with short hair; at 9, it was the only feminine thing about me, I felt. So, I felt de-sexed, and shamed by my appearance. I didn't even recognize myself in the mirror. My nada cut me off from my sense of my own self when she cut my ponytail. Then, the cherry on top. Nada took me and my little Sister to get our formal photo-portraits made for our dad's office, and I just could not smile. I look like I am on the verge of tears in that photo, and nada kept it out on display in our home for, like, years and years after dad brought it home from his office. I guess she liked me looking sad, defeated, shamed, and completely under her control. Or maybe she just thought it was a great shot of herself. That's probably it; she didn't really care about how I looked in that picture, it was about how she looked. -Annie > > My mother forced me to have really short hair when every other little girl > in my age group had long hair. My hair was really lovely and thick, and I > loved having it long, but she didn't want to bother with fixing it, so she > had it chopped off into a " pixie " cut, which led to me being laughed at a > great deal. When I was 8 or 9, she let it grow for a while, and I was > thrilled to have pigtails, which was the fashion at the time, but for some > reason she wouldn't allow me to wear ribbons on the pigtails, which was what > all the other girls were wearing. And then she had it cut really short > again, which devastated me. Now, the reason for this was probably because > she was no good with hair, which I understand, because I have no talent > whatsoever when it comes to hair-fixing, and since I've been on my own, I > have generally kept it short so I don't have to fool with it. But I think if > I had a little girl, and all of her peers had long hair, I would understand > how she'd feel about " being different, " and make my best effort to learn how > to groom a little girl's long hair. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 OMG guys And i wish I could send you a picture of my nada's hair. She is 66 now. Lives in the most conservative part of the US. Teaches elementary school. is about 100 lbs overweight. Wears only denimn dresses or overalls. And she hacks her hair short, rats it all over her head and then has it colored pinkish red with blonde and purple streaks!!!! And she goes to the hairdresser's every single week. And then she refuses to wash it herself, but rats it every day. When she wakes up there is a huge dent at the back of her head. I read once that NPDs will do things to make their heads look bigger. . but I cant remember where. As for me, I've never been that into shoes either. I always attributed it to my dad. To wear foolish shoes you couldn't walk in made no sense to him. And I am waaaay to busy of a body to mess with uncomfortable heels - what if I need to jog to catch the train? Or climb a ladder? Or haul a podium? The truth is I do these things every single day of my life. I'm also quite tall so I don't really need them. Heels look sexy, but my job is usually to make other people look sexy or appealing. Waif boss however wears 4 inch heels every singe day - again, even saturday. She is only 4 ft 10 and is VERY self concious about her height - unless she can pull out the height card and say she cant do X because she is small. It makes me want to gag. I am very into fashion though - but not trendy fashion, i wear vintage and hand made clothes and I have my own sense of style. Instead of a 4 inch heel, i'd choose a flat or small heel on a jeweled sandal, or even a dress or skirt with cowboy boots. I can't stand to be hobbled!!!! As for my hair, I have never had it really long, didn't know it was an option. so I've been growing it for about 5 years. I like it, chocolatey reddish brown, mostly one length with soft layers and bangs, and I often make it look kind of vampirish or hippy, because I was an emo goth hippie kid and I've never outgrown it. I know how to style it, due ONLY to many years as a dancer, but for work I just wear it clean and soft and if anyone would like to complain they can get in line to kiss my BUTT!!! On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:38 AM, anuria67854 wrote: > ** > > > I too love the idea of " makeover therapy!! " You could perhaps just go in > for a day of total, decadent pampering: a facial, full body massage, > steaming, soaking, pedicures, manicures, and a new hairstyle (that may or > may not involve a trim) or new hair color, and a professional make-up > application. > Squeee! > I'd love me some pampering, that would be heavenly! > -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > > > > > > > > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she > pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman > that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of > those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 > years now. > > > > > > > > > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was > a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > > > > > > > > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we > weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to > college 3 days a week. > > > > > > > > > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early > one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other > kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up > until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but > anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > > > > > > > > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother > was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started > chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the > braids. > > > > > > > > > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as > she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting > and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > > > > > > > > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair > for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that > she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time > they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to > move, which I did about 10 days later. > > > > > > > > > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (((((tretretre))))) You poor little kid. You'd think a teacher would easily recognize the symptoms and signs of parental neglect. The adults in our lives who could have stepped in and helped us, or at least validated us, so often didn't. -Annie > > I would cry so much when she 'brushed' my hair, that finally she just stopped. I ended up with a huge rat's nest on top of my head. My 4th grade teacher told me if I showed up like that at school again she'd send me home. > > Now I have to wonder, why did the teacher blame me and not the parent? Why couldn't my mother brush my hair without causing me so much pain? Now I think that she caused me pain on purpose, she was annoyed at having to take care of me, and was happy when I screamed so hard that she had an 'excuse' to not take care of me, she could claim it was my fault. She could go back to her victim role, poor her for having such a 'difficult daughter'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Natalia, Odd you mention haircuts, I used to have long long hair down to my lower back and I remember screaming and crying when she brushed it, she blamed me for " sucking on the ends of my hair " and " chewing on my hair " she said my " terrible habits caused ugly matts " so she took me in and had my hair cut completely off. I used to blame myself for having my long hair cut off, but now I wonder if it actually was my fault because I don't remember sucking on my hair at all. > > Ok, this may seem like an odd topic, but when I first started researching BPD I read a few stories about some people's Nadas chopping off their hair when they were young. Did this happen to any of you? This happened to me a few times that I can remember. When I was little, I had fine, straight hair that was nice and thick. Nada would rip the hairbrush through my hair every morning until I was crying from the pain. Nada would curse my hair and scream at me. She dragged me to the hairdresser a couple of times, and cut my hair all off, once into a " Dorthy Hamill " and then a couple years later into a " shag " . Suffice it to say, I looked terrible. Just terrible. The thing is, My hair was not " out of control " . She just wouldn't brush it correctly. She would start at the roots and drag the brush hard down my head. In a way, I think she didn't want me to even look nice. I begged her to make me look like the other little girls in elementary school, but she refused to listen to me. What I was trying to say, was I wanted to look taken care of, like someone cared. The other little kids picked on me too for the way I looked, I can clearly remember telling a girl about my birthday presents and she said, " You are a liar. You don't have anything nice. Just look at you, you are POOR. " But at the time, I wasn't poor, I just wasn't looked after properly. > > Anyways, thanks for listening. It's kind of embarrassing to tell these stories, but I think you all understand on some level or another. > > Natalia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Hair abuse - My mother did all these same things. -- Shed take shears to my hair. Even once when I got a new haircut and I was so proud of how I looked, that same day she got mad and took scissors to it and whacked.... I cried non-stop and I think that made her happy, to see me cry and to " not look pretty " any longer. -- Or when shed go into one of her rages, shed pull and yank at my hair. ripping clumps out leaving bloody patches on my sisters and my scalp. ugh --Shivers-- horrible memories. > > " Hair Abuse " !! OMG!!! That's another part of it! > > I absolutely hated when my mother touched my hair, because she pulled, twisted, yanked, all the while screaming at me like the crazy woman that she is. When I was 10 she pulled out several chunks of hair. One of those never grew back and I've had a bald spot the size of a quarter for 50 years now. > > When I was 12 she took _pinking_ shears to my hair!! That, too, was a dreadful year. Everybody made fun of me. > > The final time- I was 18, but still living at home (remember, we weren't adults until 21) working full time (50 hours actually) and going to college 3 days a week. > > I worked in fast food and for the holiday party they closed early one night and the boss and his wife took the crew bowling. All the other kids got picked up, and of course, I was to walk home (about 2.5 miles). Up until then nobody at work knew I was walking home at 10 pm every night- but anyway, my boss gave me a ride home. > > It was 11:10 instead of the usual 10:45, so I was " late. " My mother was waiting inside our back door, scissors in hand, cornered me and started chopping. I had long hair that I braided for work; she chopped off the braids. > > I was so scared - I thought she was going to stab me to death, as she kept stabbing my neck as she cut my hair - she was screaming and ranting and wailing about me " being with a man " -- awful!! > > Then I had to figure out what to do with what was left of my hair for work- I could have just died. I was afraid nobody would believe me that she did it, because nobody believed me when I was younger, but this time they did. My boss's wife helped me find an apartment and encouraged me to move, which I did about 10 days later. > > wow. yeah, hair abuse. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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