Re: Horrible Words

[Guest guest]

((((()))))

First, let me say that I'm very happy and relieved for you that your are feeling

better, AND that you are starting to set firm boundaries with your mom when she

behaves badly toward you. I agree, she is pretty extreme in her callousness and

narcissism.

I wish I had some words of wisdom RE getting over the crushing hurt of having

things like said to you, but I don't. I myself am remaining in No Contact with

my nada because I finally reached my tipping point and couldn't " not hear " or

" get over " what she said to me any longer.

I think the way I've handled it may not be particularly healthy, at least in the

long term sense: I got angry about it. Instead of feeling hurt again, I

basically said " OK. That's it. I'm done " and mentally added the most scathing

and vitriolic tirade imaginable, at a screaming pitch. I have never actually

said these things to her, but I sure wanted to.

(The closest I ever got was using sarcasm on her once. It felt good, I have to

admit.)

I want eventually to pass through this anger and become compassionate toward

nada (from a safe distance) and now that she has Alzheimer's that may be

possible.

Now, this is going to sound kind of bizarre, but it just occurred to me that in

a way, I feel cheated of my opportunity to tell nada off. It would be cruel

to do that to her now, it would be like screaming at a baby.

Maybe some of the members here can post about things they've done to get past

the hurt at being neglected and abused, without resorting to anger.

I hope so, I'd like to know too.

-Annie

>

> I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was really

ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here. Since that time

I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her even while extremely

sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm conversation she said

some horrible things. I don't know if it's in reaction to the boundaries, but

even though I immediately removed myself from the conversation, I still don't

know how to get passed the things she said.

>

> The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go back to

the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that would create

less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry all night about

you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

>

> Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I had

agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a concert where

I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment) and she purchased

the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want to have her phone on

during the concert as I'm still under medical care and there is a rare chance I

could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for putting that in my head, I hadn't

thought that I might have to leave half way through! " " Now I'm going to have to

worry about you during the show! "

>

> I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging up. But

how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself that she's

sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to terms with the

fact that my mother would say something so awful to me, despite the situation.

>

> Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

listening.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for replying. I am definitely stuck in an anger phase with her. I usually

cope by telling her off which never helps. It's an improvement that I just said

" I'll die in the street before I call you " and hung up. She called me twice

after that and I didn't pick up. I am hopefully starting to feel empowered, it's

very difficult for me to let the things she says go with out standing up for

myself.

> >

> > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was really

ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here. Since that time

I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her even while extremely

sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm conversation she said

some horrible things. I don't know if it's in reaction to the boundaries, but

even though I immediately removed myself from the conversation, I still don't

know how to get passed the things she said.

> >

> > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go back to

the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that would create

less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry all night about

you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> >

> > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I had

agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a concert where

I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment) and she purchased

the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want to have her phone on

during the concert as I'm still under medical care and there is a rare chance I

could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for putting that in my head, I hadn't

thought that I might have to leave half way through! " " Now I'm going to have to

worry about you during the show! "

> >

> > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging up. But

how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself that she's

sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to terms with the

fact that my mother would say something so awful to me, despite the situation.

> >

> > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

listening.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Let me second the sentiment expressed below by saying I am also glad to hear you

are talking care of yourself, feeling better, and putting your own care first.

Good job - its a hard thing to learn to do. In my experience, sometimes our

bodies have a 'wisdom' in illness - making sure tend to your own needs - and it

sounds like you did a good job of listening.

I've been looking for a " get the horrible words off me " remedy as well. Not that

I have one I can bottle, per say, but I'll share what I discovered the other

night when I woke up at 3:45am with echoes of my mom's latest hits rambling

round my brain---

Part of it may be remembering (meaning, putting it like mantra into your mind

until the thought becomes real to you) that it is *not* your problem. You are

not responsible for how anyone else chooses to interpret you. You didn't choose

it. You didn't create it. You can't control it. The only thing we, as human

beings, can really do is to check our own motivations, be honest with ourselves

about our intentions, speak to others and hope they will hear us as we meant to

be heard.

Part of it may be remembering you are dealing with someone whose BDP means they

don't see or feel themselves unless they are projecting...which doesn't make her

behavior ok, but it helps give you perspective. You reflect her to herself, but

then she reflects you back in a distorted funhouse mirror. So, with practice,

you learn not to see or even look for yourself yourself in her mirror. Its not

you she sees. I also think sometimes the only thing BPDs seem able to connect

through is pain - and so they deal it out looking for someone to reflect it - to

reflect that their action had effect in the world - and also to force someone to

share it.

Part of it is feeling the hurt and letting it go - and accepting that you're

working with someone who cannot aid in the processes of releasing your emotions.

Someone who,

as a parent, in an ideal universe would have done that with you as a child,

taught you

how to do it when you were a child, but most likely didn't because she didn't

know how herself. Personally I've learned (after years of working at this) that

you shouldn't avoid feeling your pain. If it hurt, it hurt. When we delay a

feeling, avoid them, it comes back tenfold, time and agin, until you feel it and

let it go. Your feelings matter - maybe not to your BPD, but they matter and you

have to 'parent' them yourself. So take your time, go to a safe place (or safe

person if you need support) and tend to your hurt, vent, cry, and let the

emotion release like a raincloud. Emotions only come back like ghosts when they

aren't allowed to finish.

Part of it is learning to hear the literal words she says, rather than hearing

the message behind her words that you may not want to realize you hear (and were

likely *trained* to receive since childhood.) The hurt comes from doing the

latter, and you can detach from her intention by learning to practice the

former. Stop translating and the problem clearly becomes hers again.

For KOs, the BPDs 'message' behind the verbal message is often a twisted form

of love and resentment, wrapped well in rusted barbed wire. Many of us KOs

were/are so desperate for the love part of the message that we keep trying to

unwrap the barbed wire and detangle to resentment to get to the juicy love

center....as if it were candy and we could somehow get rid of the outer shell

and just eat the love chocolate inside.

In my adult experience, the best chocolate is just chocolate with no outer

coating, and the love you want (and *deserve*, that we all deserve) doesn't come

wrapped in barbed wire and resentment. It is out there to be discovered, but we

also have to stop looking for

love, as the song says, in all the wrong places.

Wanting artisan chocolate from an M & M is an exercise in futility, something will

always feel like its missing and way too much work. So let the M & M be an M & M

rather than trying to pick its shell off - understand it for what it what it

is. Kick the KO habit of feeling that it is somehow it is all your fault,

because its not.

Let the word just be words, by learning to hearing and respond to them them as

words, rather than as intentions. In conversations, if you want to engage,

question your BPDs intentions rather than assuming anything - even the obvious

'meanness'. I made the same mistake of forgetting this the other day...and all

my babble here is having had to think all of this through for myself. (Hope it

doesn't sound like a lecture - its not meant as one...just a written meditation

and too many metaphors.

So chin up. Your are doing *so* well just in learning to set and hold

boundaries. Its hard work, its tiring work. Do something good for yourself.

I wish you patience, luck, healing, a safe and clear distance from your BPD, and

real chocolate-ly (or your version thereof) love nearby in your world.

> >

> > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was really

ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here. Since that time

I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her even while extremely

sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm conversation she said

some horrible things. I don't know if it's in reaction to the boundaries, but

even though I immediately removed myself from the conversation, I still don't

know how to get passed the things she said.

> >

> > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go back to

the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that would create

less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry all night about

you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> >

> > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I had

agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a concert where

I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment) and she purchased

the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want to have her phone on

during the concert as I'm still under medical care and there is a rare chance I

could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for putting that in my head, I hadn't

thought that I might have to leave half way through! " " Now I'm going to have to

worry about you during the show! "

> >

> > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging up. But

how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself that she's

sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to terms with the

fact that my mother would say something so awful to me, despite the situation.

> >

> > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

listening.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

AMEN.

In a message dated 9/1/2011 9:00:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

samsarayoda@... writes:

Let me second the sentiment expressed below by saying I am also glad to

hear you are talking care of yourself, feeling better, and putting your own

care first. Good job - its a hard thing to learn to do. In my experience,

sometimes our bodies have a 'wisdom' in illness - making sure tend to your own

needs - and it sounds like you did a good job of listening.

I've been looking for a " get the horrible words off me " remedy as well.

Not that I have one I can bottle, per say, but I'll share what I discovered

the other night when I woke up at 3:45am with echoes of my mom's latest hits

rambling round my brain---

Part of it may be remembering (meaning, putting it like mantra into your

mind until the thought becomes real to you) that it is *not* your problem.

You are not responsible for how anyone else chooses to interpret you. You

didn't choose it. You didn't create it. You can't control it. The only thing

we, as human beings, can really do is to check our own motivations, be

honest with ourselves about our intentions, speak to others and hope they will

hear us as we meant to be heard.

Part of it may be remembering you are dealing with someone whose BDP means

they don't see or feel themselves unless they are projecting...which

doesn't make her behavior ok, but it helps give you perspective. You reflect

her

to herself, but then she reflects you back in a distorted funhouse mirror.

So, with practice, you learn not to see or even look for yourself yourself

in her mirror. Its not you she sees. I also think sometimes the only thing

BPDs seem able to connect through is pain - and so they deal it out

looking for someone to reflect it - to reflect that their action had effect in

the world - and also to force someone to share it.

Part of it is feeling the hurt and letting it go - and accepting that

you're working with someone who cannot aid in the processes of releasing your

emotions. Someone who,

as a parent, in an ideal universe would have done that with you as a

child, taught you

how to do it when you were a child, but most likely didn't because she

didn't know how herself. Personally I've learned (after years of working at

this) that you shouldn't avoid feeling your pain. If it hurt, it hurt. When

we delay a feeling, avoid them, it comes back tenfold, time and agin, until

you feel it and let it go. Your feelings matter - maybe not to your BPD,

but they matter and you have to 'parent' them yourself. So take your time, go

to a safe place (or safe person if you need support) and tend to your

hurt, vent, cry, and let the emotion release like a raincloud. Emotions only

come back like ghosts when they aren't allowed to finish.

Part of it is learning to hear the literal words she says, rather than

hearing the message behind her words that you may not want to realize you hear

(and were likely *trained* to receive since childhood.) The hurt comes

from doing the latter, and you can detach from her intention by learning to

practice the former. Stop translating and the problem clearly becomes hers

again.

For KOs, the BPDs 'message' behind the verbal message is often a twisted

form of love and resentment, wrapped well in rusted barbed wire. Many of us

KOs were/are so desperate for the love part of the message that we keep

trying to unwrap the barbed wire and detangle to resentment to get to the

juicy love center....as if it were candy and we could somehow get rid of the

outer shell and just eat the love chocolate inside.

In my adult experience, the best chocolate is just chocolate with no outer

coating, and the love you want (and *deserve*, that we all deserve)

doesn't come wrapped in barbed wire and resentment. It is out there to be

discovered, but we also have to stop looking for

love, as the song says, in all the wrong places.

Wanting artisan chocolate from an M & M is an exercise in futility,

something will always feel like its missing and way too much work. So let the

M & M

be an M & M rather than trying to pick its shell off - understand it for what

it what it is. Kick the KO habit of feeling that it is somehow it is all

your fault, because its not.

Let the word just be words, by learning to hearing and respond to them

them as words, rather than as intentions. In conversations, if you want to

engage, question your BPDs intentions rather than assuming anything - even the

obvious 'meanness'. I made the same mistake of forgetting this the other

day...and all my babble here is having had to think all of this through for

myself. (Hope it doesn't sound like a lecture - its not meant as one...just

a written meditation and too many metaphors.

So chin up. Your are doing *so* well just in learning to set and hold

boundaries. Its hard work, its tiring work. Do something good for yourself.

I wish you patience, luck, healing, a safe and clear distance from your

BPD, and real chocolate-ly (or your version thereof) love nearby in your

world.

> >

> > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was

really ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here.

Since that time I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her even

while extremely sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm

conversation she said some horrible things. I don't know if it's in reaction

to the boundaries, but even though I immediately removed myself from the

conversation, I still don't know how to get passed the things she said.

> >

> > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go

back to the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that

would create less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry all

night about you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> >

> > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I

had agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a

concert where I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment) and

she purchased the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want

to have her phone on during the concert as I'm still under medical care and

there is a rare chance I could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for

putting that in my head, I hadn't thought that I might have to leave half way

through! " " Now I'm going to have to worry about you during the show! "

> >

> > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging

up. But how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself

that she's sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to

terms with the fact that my mother would say something so awful to me,

despite the situation.

> >

> > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

listening.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, I'm looking into getting myself a med alert bracelet as I don't feel I

can rely on her in an emergency lol.

I have yet to respond back to her in part because I'm not sure how to. I don't

think I can just sweep it under the rug. How do I address the behavior in an

appropriate way for her bpd?

> > >

> > > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was

> really ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here.

> Since that time I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her even

> while extremely sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm

> conversation she said some horrible things. I don't know if it's in reaction

> to the boundaries, but even though I immediately removed myself from the

> conversation, I still don't know how to get passed the things she said.

> > >

> > > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go

> back to the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that

> would create less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry

all

> night about you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> > >

> > > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I

> had agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a

> concert where I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment)

and

> she purchased the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want

> to have her phone on during the concert as I'm still under medical care and

> there is a rare chance I could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for

> putting that in my head, I hadn't thought that I might have to leave half way

> through! " " Now I'm going to have to worry about you during the show! "

> > >

> > > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging

> up. But how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself

> that she's sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to

> terms with the fact that my mother would say something so awful to me,

> despite the situation.

> > >

> > > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

> listening.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" No response " can be a response, in a way. It might be a first step in reducing

contact with your bpd mom, like a " time out " from the relationship.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was

> > really ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here.

> > Since that time I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her

even

> > while extremely sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm

> > conversation she said some horrible things. I don't know if it's in

reaction

> > to the boundaries, but even though I immediately removed myself from the

> > conversation, I still don't know how to get passed the things she said.

> > > >

> > > > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go

> > back to the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that

> > would create less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry

all

> > night about you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> > > >

> > > > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I

> > had agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a

> > concert where I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment)

and

> > she purchased the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want

> > to have her phone on during the concert as I'm still under medical care and

> > there is a rare chance I could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for

> > putting that in my head, I hadn't thought that I might have to leave half

way

> > through! " " Now I'm going to have to worry about you during the show! "

> > > >

> > > > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging

> > up. But how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself

> > that she's sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to

> > terms with the fact that my mother would say something so awful to me,

> > despite the situation.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

> > listening.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bracelet sounds like a good idea.

As far as responding, I'm not sure I have enough context to give really good

personal advice. That said, two thoughts general advice thoughts spring to mind

- 1) if you are in therapy, talk out a communication plan with your doc and/or

2) the chapter in the " Stop Walking On Eggshells Workbook " on being heard has

some really incredible strategies. Adapt them word for word to what you want to

say.

One other thought: a technique that works for me - spend sometime writing what

you wish you could say to her and have her hear, with no intention of actually

sharing it with her. Just write it for yourself, to express the feelings for

yourself. I found that doing this (before trying to write a letter to my mom

recently) made all the difference in how I was able to frame the communication

and incorporate the recommended techniques in a way that made the communication

feel authentic and non-defensive. I'd imagine that it would help before trying

to have a conversation as well.

Good luck.

> > > >

> > > > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was

> > really ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here.

> > Since that time I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her

even

> > while extremely sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm

> > conversation she said some horrible things. I don't know if it's in

reaction

> > to the boundaries, but even though I immediately removed myself from the

> > conversation, I still don't know how to get passed the things she said.

> > > >

> > > > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go

> > back to the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that

> > would create less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to worry

all

> > night about you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> > > >

> > > > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I

> > had agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a

> > concert where I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my judgment)

and

> > she purchased the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want

> > to have her phone on during the concert as I'm still under medical care and

> > there is a rare chance I could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for

> > putting that in my head, I hadn't thought that I might have to leave half

way

> > through! " " Now I'm going to have to worry about you during the show! "

> > > >

> > > > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging

> > up. But how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself

> > that she's sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come to

> > terms with the fact that my mother would say something so awful to me,

> > despite the situation.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

> > listening.

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Excellent advice.

> > > > >

> > > > > I posted a few weeks ago about my mom treating me terribly when I was

> > > really ill and in the hospital. I really appreciated the support here.

> > > Since that time I've done a good job of implementing boundaries with her

even

> > > while extremely sick and scared. Recently however, during generally calm

> > > conversation she said some horrible things. I don't know if it's in

reaction

> > > to the boundaries, but even though I immediately removed myself from the

> > > conversation, I still don't know how to get passed the things she said.

> > > > >

> > > > > The first time I was not feeling well and thought I would need to go

> > > back to the hospital. I called to give her a heads up as I thought that

> > > would create less drama later. Her response was " Great, now I have to

worry all

> > > night about you! " no concern for my health, just inconvenience.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tonight she called me for help with a new cell phone she purchased. I

> > > had agreed to let her drive with me out of town as she wanted to see a

> > > concert where I was going (I let the help with gas money cloud my

judgment) and

> > > she purchased the new phone for the trip. I mentioned to her she may want

> > > to have her phone on during the concert as I'm still under medical care

and

> > > there is a rare chance I could become ill. Her response was " Thanks for

> > > putting that in my head, I hadn't thought that I might have to leave half

way

> > > through! " " Now I'm going to have to worry about you during the show! "

> > > > >

> > > > > I stuck to my plan of telling her what she said was mean and hanging

> > > up. But how to do you get suck horrible words off you. I can tell myself

> > > that she's sick, she's not capable of love, but I don't think I can come

to

> > > terms with the fact that my mother would say something so awful to me,

> > > despite the situation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry this ran so long, I'm a little emotional right now. Thanks for

> > > listening.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Its true, seems to me. I feel like I've been forced into making a no-win choice

that I never wanted: either go No Contact in order to preserve my own emotional

health, or stay in contact with my nada and continue to receive fresh trauma.

And you're right: No Contact means I choose myself, and that makes me feel

guilty (inappropriately, I know), but the other option, choosing even in limited

contact means subjecting myself to a stress level that isn't good for me at all.

If I could just reach a level of emotional detachment that would allow me to

listen to her without feeling a significant amount of stress, fear and loathing,

just zone out, chill, and say " uh-huh " , and then when she launches into any form

of abuse, just politely hang up, that would be good. I hate the idea of

having to drug myself into a stupor in order to tolerate hearing her voice

without my heart rate and blood pressure shooting up; that's no way to live.

Now that my nada has Alzheimer's, I'm starting to feel that I might be able to

show her some compassion and reinitiate limited contact, but, it shames me to

admit that I really don't want to. That makes me feel like I don't have any

empathy.

I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our pd

parents force us into.

Its just not fair.

-Annie

>

> I don't know if we can ever fully recover from the hurt of being

abandoned/rejected/abused/used by our mothers. It is our oldest relationship,

and at one time our most important relationship. How could this mean nothing to

us?

>

> I can totally relate to your post--from the conversations with my mother that

are apparently for HER to list her complaints, but I am not allowed to voice my

needs. To the fact that when I started getting to set healthy boundaries, nada

decided I had abandoned her, didn't love her and was working against her. She

became hostile and paranoid. She stopped talking to me, but instead voiced her

suspicions to other family members, and telling anyone else who would listen how

her *bad* daughter deserted her.

>

> This is very frustrating. At first, you want to defend yourself to all those

people. Then you feel like 'what's the use'? Then we start the grief process,

the death of even a tiny relationship with our parent.

>

> This is crazy making, and you can't fix it. The most you can do is accept. I

suppose the only other options are to spend the rest of your life trying to

suppress your needs and try to please the BPD, hoping they forgive you for ever

wanting to be an independent identity.

>

> This is very sad, because we simply have no good choices, it is either us or

them. I choose me.

[Guest guest]

I hear you, it is just another slap in the face.

>

> I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our pd

parents force us into.

Its just not fair.

[Guest guest]

I hear you both, and feel the same way so often --- but I think its important to

remind ourselves that, in reality, the choice they offer us is not the only

choice we have.

We actually only have to chose between self-preservation and self-sacrifice if

we choose to playing their game, by their rules. (And honestly, in their heart

of hearts, somewhere deep below the surface - I don't think they like the game

or the rules any better than we do.)

Please understand I know the feeling of " either/or " is real, for you and for me,

and I don't want to belittle the feelings. Your feelings matter. They deserve

and need gentle, loving attendance.

But the other reality is that we have other options. We have to remember to keep

looking for them when we can't see them - or else we are stuck in their trap,

the same trap they are stuck in. The toxicity is staying stuck in their traps.

Don't get stuck in her trap and don't play by her rules. You have the wisdom and

the wholeness to see its a 'lose-lose' game. With practice and awareness, you

can outwit the trap. You can chose not to play the game.

And you are so absolutely right.

It is not fair.

I'm so sorry you are going through this and I hope today is a better day.

> >

> > I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our

pd

> parents force us into.

>

> Its just not fair.

>

[Guest guest]

What a perfect description of everything I've been feeling lately. If only it

was enough to know that I'm not alone, but it isn't. The no-win situation has

me feeling depressed because there's simply no way to come out of this situation

unscathed. Either I lose my biological family or I lose myself. What a crappy

choice!

At the risk of sounding like a complete bitch, there are times when I just wish

my nada had alzheimers. A few years ago when my mom had some surgery and was

still drugged up really good, the good mom appeared and it was nice to see. It

was the real her without the " outfit " of BPD that she usually wears. She was

vulnerable and kind and sweet. She let me help take care of her and she was

thankful.

That's the mom that I try to remember is underneath all that illness, but it's

that same memory that winds up sucking me into the hurtful relationship again.

Once she started getting better from the surgery and the drugs wore off, the BPD

bitch came out and pushed me away again.

I'm starting to understand that nada was verbally/mentally abused as a child.

Her father was an alcoholic; his mother lived with them for a time and she was a

total bitch, telling my mother that she should never have been born, etc. Nada

was never allowed to say anything she thought because she would upset her father

and he would start drinking again (like somehow it was all her fault). She's

told me over and over that she would never allow herself to get into a situation

again where she wasn't permitted to say what she felt. Unfortunately, she gave

herself license to say everything and refuses to temper what she says, even when

she's told that what she's saying is hurtful. Somehow, she feels entitled since

she was made to control herself for so many years as a child.

Well, I'm sorry she went through that, but NOTHING entitles you to say things

that are hurtful. In my own house, I've taught my children to be honest, but to

respect the feelings of others. That doesn't mean you have to put up with crap,

but I've given them advice how to respectfully tell friends that they do not

appreciate their words/actions and that they will choose different friends if

they can't work things out. So rather than be just as hurtful as my nada, I'm

trying to do just the opposite. I wish she could have come to the same

conclusion.

AnnieL

>

> Its true, seems to me. I feel like I've been forced into making a no-win

choice that I never wanted: either go No Contact in order to preserve my own

emotional health, or stay in contact with my nada and continue to receive fresh

trauma.

>

> And you're right: No Contact means I choose myself, and that makes me feel

guilty (inappropriately, I know), but the other option, choosing even in limited

contact means subjecting myself to a stress level that isn't good for me at all.

>

> If I could just reach a level of emotional detachment that would allow me to

listen to her without feeling a significant amount of stress, fear and loathing,

just zone out, chill, and say " uh-huh " , and then when she launches into any form

of abuse, just politely hang up, that would be good. I hate the idea of

having to drug myself into a stupor in order to tolerate hearing her voice

without my heart rate and blood pressure shooting up; that's no way to live.

>

> Now that my nada has Alzheimer's, I'm starting to feel that I might be able to

show her some compassion and reinitiate limited contact, but, it shames me to

admit that I really don't want to. That makes me feel like I don't have any

empathy.

>

> I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our pd

parents force us into.

>

> Its just not fair.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Having limited contact with nada was literally making me ill; I'm not sure you

understood that part. I'm talking high blood pressure and debilitating

Meniere's disease-like symptoms after simply hearing nada's voice on the phone.

The Meniere's thing impacted me for a half-day each time: sudden excruciating

headache, sudden loud ringing in the ears, vertigo (the room seems to spin)

nausea, vomiting, then crashing into sleep for 12 hours no matter what time of

day it is. I can't earn a living if that were to keep happening to me.

So, in my case, it actually is the only choice I have.

Its only now that my nada has descended into Alzheimer's that I'm starting to

feel even a little bit like its safe for me to reestablish limited contact. I

think its because her abusiveness can't be hidden any longer; she's been

" outed. " Its clear that its not me, I didn't make her this way and I can't

cure her.

She's lost so much of her executive function due to the organic brain

deterioration of Alzheimer's that she can't willfully hide her rage, her

paranoia or her fantastic delusional thinking any longer (nada's delusions are

rather elaborate and creative.) Nada even physically attacked one of her

caregivers.

Everyone nods sadly and says, " Ahhh, Alzheimer's. What a shame " but from my

point of view, this is the way my mother has always acted toward me behind

closed doors (not constantly, but sporadically) but now, everyone is able to

see it. To me, the only real difference is that nada now actively hallucinates

and wanders about because of the hallucinations. The rest of the " Alzheimer's "

behaviors are just bpd " on steroids " from my perspective.

So, please accept that there are circumstances in which there really is only an

either/or option. When you say, " There are other choices " it sounds

invalidating and unsupportive to me.

-Annie

> > >

> > > I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our

pd

> > parents force us into.

> >

> > Its just not fair.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I understand what you are saying, and agree if we are only talking about an

isolated nada. My nada is not a hermit any longer, and is at the top of the

extended family food chain.

So that means that there is a persistent, nada fueled misinformation circus with

all extended family and friends. I can and do avoid playing her game in my own

little family. But if I decided to continue friendship with all those extended

people from my history, I would be constantly being sucked into the game by well

meaning dupes.

Cutting off contact with those people is a little like amputating one's own

limbs. You get over it, but it leaves a lot of pain and bitterness behind. I

found no other way to deal with them, it is awkward to have to share family

specifics about nada's mental health, especially if they are innocent enough to

not be able to empathize/understand the core of BPD, or if they are codependent

in their own right and nada's machinations feel like home to them.

I am also tired of out thinking nada after decades of doing so--my children are

no longer small and so my motivation to do so is close to zero.

> > >

> > > I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that our

pd

> > parents force us into.

> >

> > Its just not fair.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Everyone nods sadly and says, " Ahhh, Alzheimer's. What a shame " but from my

point of view, this is the way my mother has always acted toward me behind

closed doors (not constantly, but sporadically) but now, everyone is able to

see it. To me, the only real difference is that nada now actively hallucinates

and wanders about because of the hallucinations. The rest of the " Alzheimer's "

behaviors are just bpd " on steroids " from my perspective.

>

Annie, I can really relate to this part as it is part of why I'm dealing with

for my nada now. I realized thinking on things after my last post that most -

not all - but most of what she's doing that would get the attention of a social

worker is Not New. She was comfortable living with insects, dangerously

ignoring her health, and being in dangerous denial well...for most of my life.

These were issues complicating her BPD/NPD stuff. I wonder do you and your

sister find it easier now that other non-KO's understand her behavior as

" Alzheimer's " ? Is she on Alzheimer's meds and have they helped any of her BPD

behaviors?

And yes...choice, it is a tricky question. Sometimes the severity of the

feeling and past traumas make normal choices unavailable. Hard to explain that

to others.

Eliza

[Guest guest]

According to my Sister, our nada is now on a cocktail of meds that help control

her hallucinations but don't eliminate them altogether, and she is on another

set of meds that reduce her paranoia, her delusions and her violent behaviors.

So the meds help, but they're not a miracle cure. Sister says mom is in a phase

now for the last couple of weeks where she's behaving better, (she goes through

phases of being more normalized, kind, pleasant, friendly, etc.) mainly because

she wants very much to be allowed to move back into the other part of the

residential care center where the residents are more mentally healthy and more

socially interactive. In the Alzheimer's wing where she is now, most of her

fellow patients are not very communicative or pleasant to socialize with.

So, the answer to your question is I guess... sort of? The meds are sort of

helping with her bpd behaviors. Nada's overt delusional thinking, the paranoid

thinking, and the lashing out with physical violence that she had been engaging

in covertly in the past do seem to be responding well to antipsychotic meds (but

then she gets " acclimated " to them and the doctor has to try another one or a

different dosage) and the... anti-violence med. I'm not sure what they're

giving her for anti-violence; an anti-anxiety med? So, according to Sister, the

meds do help, but not perfectly, and they have to continually be adjusted to

maintain their effectiveness.

-Annie

> >

>

> > Everyone nods sadly and says, " Ahhh, Alzheimer's. What a shame " but from my

point of view, this is the way my mother has always acted toward me behind

closed doors (not constantly, but sporadically) but now, everyone is able to

see it. To me, the only real difference is that nada now actively hallucinates

and wanders about because of the hallucinations. The rest of the " Alzheimer's "

behaviors are just bpd " on steroids " from my perspective.

> >

>

> Annie, I can really relate to this part as it is part of why I'm dealing with

for my nada now. I realized thinking on things after my last post that most -

not all - but most of what she's doing that would get the attention of a social

worker is Not New. She was comfortable living with insects, dangerously

ignoring her health, and being in dangerous denial well...for most of my life.

These were issues complicating her BPD/NPD stuff. I wonder do you and your

sister find it easier now that other non-KO's understand her behavior as

" Alzheimer's " ? Is she on Alzheimer's meds and have they helped any of her BPD

behaviors?

>

> And yes...choice, it is a tricky question. Sometimes the severity of the

feeling and past traumas make normal choices unavailable. Hard to explain that

to others.

>

> Eliza

>

[Guest guest]

Annie I'm glad the meds are " sort of " helping. It sounds like your mother's

doctors have their hands full managing it all. I have a secret hope that once

my nada could get on an Alzheimer's med (which I think will happen at some

point) that it might help her other cognitive problems too. Guess I'll try to

keep my expectations modest though.

Eliza

>

> According to my Sister, our nada is now on a cocktail of meds that help

control her hallucinations but don't eliminate them altogether, and she is on

another set of meds that reduce her paranoia, her delusions and her violent

behaviors. So the meds help, but they're not a miracle cure. Sister says mom

is in a phase now for the last couple of weeks where she's behaving better, (she

goes through phases of being more normalized, kind, pleasant, friendly, etc.)

mainly because she wants very much to be allowed to move back into the other

part of the residential care center where the residents are more mentally

healthy and more socially interactive. In the Alzheimer's wing where she is

now, most of her fellow patients are not very communicative or pleasant to

socialize with.

>

> So, the answer to your question is I guess... sort of? The meds are sort of

helping with her bpd behaviors. Nada's overt delusional thinking, the paranoid

thinking, and the lashing out with physical violence that she had been engaging

in covertly in the past do seem to be responding well to antipsychotic meds (but

then she gets " acclimated " to them and the doctor has to try another one or a

different dosage) and the... anti-violence med. I'm not sure what they're

giving her for anti-violence; an anti-anxiety med? So, according to Sister, the

meds do help, but not perfectly, and they have to continually be adjusted to

maintain their effectiveness.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Well, everyone has a different body chemistry and will react to meds

individually, so, maybe you and your nada will get lucky and she'll respond

better to the mildest antipsychotics, and you'll see better and more stable

improvement than my nada is having. But even so I think that's wise to keep

expectations modest.

-Annie

>

> Annie I'm glad the meds are " sort of " helping. It sounds like your mother's

doctors have their hands full managing it all. I have a secret hope that once

my nada could get on an Alzheimer's med (which I think will happen at some

point) that it might help her other cognitive problems too. Guess I'll try to

keep my expectations modest though.

>

> Eliza

[Guest guest]

Again, Annie -

Please accept my most sincere and heart-felt apologies. I'm so sorry you felt

the way you did based on what I wrote. That was the exact opposite of my

intentions.

I'm also sorry that you misunderstood what I was trying to convey, (and perhaps

that is my bad for not having said it well.) It was not all my intention to

imply that NC wasn't a good choice. I fully support it, and use it liberally as

needed myself.

My comment about 'other options' actually had more to do with how we, as KOs,

choose to think about things in relationship with ourselves, not in relationship

with our BPs. I'm not sure if that explanation helps, but I hope you can believe

me when I say, I truly meant you no disrespect and am sad to know my attempt to

help give perspective hurt your feelings.

(I'm very new to this on-line chatting thing - and this teaches me a good lesson

about being more careful to responding to partial post out of context.)

Take good care of yourself and be well.

> > > >

> > > > I hate this struggle between self-preservation and self-sacrifice that

our pd

> > > parents force us into.

> > >

> > > Its just not fair.

> > >

> >

>