Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

[Guest guest]

I'm glad you're doing well And you're certainly justified in your anger.

((hugs))

It was a very slow revelation for me--being homeschooled certainly didn't

help me any. It all seemed " normal " for most of highschool, though I did

wonder if my fada had depression. I just had the sense that it was terribly

unfair and was angry about it a lot, but I was helpless since fada ruled the

roost. I kept reading books at the library about codependency, learning to

say " no " when I always say " yes, " and all sorts of self-help books but none

of them really clicked or made sense or fit into my situation. I seriously

did think that all fathers were like my fada--shows how sheltered I was! (or

rather, locked in the house with a madman!)

Even when my first bf (now DH) kept saying that my fada was a nutter, he's

crazy, I kept defending him or minimizing the situation. " Oh, it's not that

bad. "

Then one day I was shelving books at the library when I ran across the

family guide to borderline personality disorder by Randi Kreger. I must

admit, I hid in the stacks and skimmed a good chunk of it instead of doing

my job, lol. I checked it out, but hid it in my backpack with all my

textbooks since I still lived at home (this was during college). Suddenly

everything made sense. That's when I realized that my fada was seriously

ill. That was my aha moment. I can't remember if I found the book before or

after I met my DH---I almost think it was before. In any case that was my

sophomore year of college.

I started having more courage to hang around people at college. When I

started hanging around my friend's family, my bf's family, and other people

at college, I started realizing that my fada's behavior was not normal. Not

everyone's dad was an unreasonable, Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde guy.

I apologize for the disjointed nature of my post! I'm trying to remember my

discovery path. It was certainly more of a slow discovery, though Kreger's

book sped things up quite a bit.

Certainly after my fada disowned me (might have something to do with

creating boundaries) I knew he was nucking futs and certainly didn't want

anything more to do with him.

Thanks for posing the question

> **

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

> ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> that is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

> make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

> put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

> with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> opener.

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know if I've had that moment yet. i grew up in a very closed

community and everyone was just used to my mom. Then a college friend

witnessed one of nada's rages at me and that I fought back and she told me I

was very very rude for fighting with my mother in front of her.

Now my boyfriend will tell me once in a while that she wasn't normal but the

thing is - to me - that was and still is totally normal. . . .

I knew my whole life she was mentally ill - it was her favorite excuse for

everything. I can't unload the groceries because I " M MENTALLY ILL. But I

have no idea no idea at all what normal is.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Holly Lipschultz <

hollymichellebyers@...> wrote:

> I'm glad you're doing well And you're certainly justified in your anger.

> ((hugs))

>

> It was a very slow revelation for me--being homeschooled certainly didn't

> help me any. It all seemed " normal " for most of highschool, though I did

> wonder if my fada had depression. I just had the sense that it was terribly

> unfair and was angry about it a lot, but I was helpless since fada ruled

> the

> roost. I kept reading books at the library about codependency, learning to

> say " no " when I always say " yes, " and all sorts of self-help books but none

> of them really clicked or made sense or fit into my situation. I seriously

> did think that all fathers were like my fada--shows how sheltered I was!

> (or

> rather, locked in the house with a madman!)

> now

> Even when my first bf (now DH) kept saying that my fada was a nutter, he's

> crazy, I kept defending him or minimizing the situation. " Oh, it's not that

> bad. "

>

> Then one day I was shelving books at the library when I ran across the

> family guide to borderline personality disorder by Randi Kreger. I must

> admit, I hid in the stacks and skimmed a good chunk of it instead of doing

> my job, lol. I checked it out, but hid it in my backpack with all my

> textbooks since I still lived at home (this was during college). Suddenly

> everything made sense. That's when I realized that my fada was seriously

> ill. That was my aha moment. I can't remember if I found the book before or

> after I met my DH---I almost think it was before. In any case that was my

> sophomore year of college.

>

> I started having more courage to hang around people at college. When I

> started hanging around my friend's family, my bf's family, and other people

> at college, I started realizing that my fada's behavior was not normal. Not

> everyone's dad was an unreasonable, Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde guy.

>

> I apologize for the disjointed nature of my post! I'm trying to remember my

> discovery path. It was certainly more of a slow discovery, though Kreger's

> book sped things up quite a bit.

>

> Certainly after my fada disowned me (might have something to do with

> creating boundaries) I knew he was nucking futs and certainly didn't want

> anything more to do with him.

>

> Thanks for posing the question

>

>

>

>

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> > since

> > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> while

> > ago.)

> > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> > about

> > the situation in general.

> >

> > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> > that is

> > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> >

> > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> > mom

> > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> > don't

> > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > spiraled

> > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> to

> > make

> > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> she

> > put

> > a pizza in the oven for us.

> >

> > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > hug...and

> > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> that. "

> >

> >

> > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> course

> > with

> > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > opener.

> >

> > So, what was your 'moment'???

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The truth didn't strike me until rather late in life. I was in my 40's. I'd

invited nada to go with me on a business/pleasure trip, and in order to keep

nada from ever feeling alone/abandoned (like she did on the first trip I took

her on; she basically freaked out on me) I'd said to nada that she could invite

anyone she wanted to go with us.

Nada invited her elderly aunt, my great aunt. This GA had always been nada's

favorite aunt, and GA had never said a mean word to anyone the entire time I

knew her. Sweetness personified, and it was genuine. A good soul.

The moment I met them at the airport, nada got me alone and told me in all

seriousness that GA had been ignoring her, rejecting her, and saying hateful,

mean things to her since nada picked her up to drive them both to the airport.

I was poleaxed with astonishment.

What!!?? I thought, " Maybe this will pass. " When we arrived at our

destination, nada kind of dropped it.

It was on the second day in this fabulous European city that nada brought it up

again, claiming that GA was still continuing to be mean to nada, ignoring nada,

giving nada the silent treatment.... and I KNEW that GA had not been doing any

such things because I'd been welded at the hip with both of them for 2 days. We

shared a room and had not been apart that whole time. And GA was clueless about

this, just kind of in a state of pure bliss at being in this amazing city she'd

always wanted to see her whole life.

It finally hit me like a ton of bricks that there was something badly wrong with

my mother's mind. She was accusing this darling, angelic person of saying mean

and hateful things to her and ignoring her, etc. Good Lord. So it was in

nada's mind the whole time, not in reality. My nada was crazy.

It wasn't just me!

-Annie

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

My first inkling that something was wrong with my stepmom instead of me was

about 5 years ago when I realized that I was the only one maintaining the

relationship. One day, I decided not to call my dad and stepmom, just to see

what happened. For three years, not one call, email, anything to find out if I

was even still alive. It all came to a head about 2 years ago when I tried to

add my stepmom as a facebook friend and she turned me down. That's when I

started therapy again, and really, truly discovered that the problem with my

stepmom wasn't all me.

Janet

 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own

understanding.

 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Proverbs 3:5-8

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:26 PM

Subject: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

Â

I don't know if I've had that moment yet. i grew up in a very closed

community and everyone was just used to my mom. Then a college friend

witnessed one of nada's rages at me and that I fought back and she told me I

was very very rude for fighting with my mother in front of her.

Now my boyfriend will tell me once in a while that she wasn't normal but the

thing is - to me - that was and still is totally normal. . . .

I knew my whole life she was mentally ill - it was her favorite excuse for

everything. I can't unload the groceries because I " M MENTALLY ILL. But I

have no idea no idea at all what normal is.

On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Holly Lipschultz <

hollymichellebyers@...> wrote:

> I'm glad you're doing well And you're certainly justified in your anger.

> ((hugs))

>

> It was a very slow revelation for me--being homeschooled certainly didn't

> help me any. It all seemed " normal " for most of highschool, though I did

> wonder if my fada had depression. I just had the sense that it was terribly

> unfair and was angry about it a lot, but I was helpless since fada ruled

> the

> roost. I kept reading books at the library about codependency, learning to

> say " no " when I always say " yes, " and all sorts of self-help books but none

> of them really clicked or made sense or fit into my situation. I seriously

> did think that all fathers were like my fada--shows how sheltered I was!

> (or

> rather, locked in the house with a madman!)

> now

> Even when my first bf (now DH) kept saying that my fada was a nutter, he's

> crazy, I kept defending him or minimizing the situation. " Oh, it's not that

> bad. "

>

> Then one day I was shelving books at the library when I ran across the

> family guide to borderline personality disorder by Randi Kreger. I must

> admit, I hid in the stacks and skimmed a good chunk of it instead of doing

> my job, lol. I checked it out, but hid it in my backpack with all my

> textbooks since I still lived at home (this was during college). Suddenly

> everything made sense. That's when I realized that my fada was seriously

> ill. That was my aha moment. I can't remember if I found the book before or

> after I met my DH---I almost think it was before. In any case that was my

> sophomore year of college.

>

> I started having more courage to hang around people at college. When I

> started hanging around my friend's family, my bf's family, and other people

> at college, I started realizing that my fada's behavior was not normal. Not

> everyone's dad was an unreasonable, Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde guy.

>

> I apologize for the disjointed nature of my post! I'm trying to remember my

> discovery path. It was certainly more of a slow discovery, though Kreger's

> book sped things up quite a bit.

>

> Certainly after my fada disowned me (might have something to do with

> creating boundaries) I knew he was nucking futs and certainly didn't want

> anything more to do with him.

>

> Thanks for posing the question

>

>

>

>

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> > since

> > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> while

> > ago.)

> > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> > about

> > the situation in general.

> >

> > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> > that is

> > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> >

> > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> > mom

> > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> > don't

> > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > spiraled

> > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> to

> > make

> > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> she

> > put

> > a pizza in the oven for us.

> >

> > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > hug...and

> > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> that. "

> >

> >

> > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> course

> > with

> > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > opener.

> >

> > So, what was your 'moment'???

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from before the

incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had been sexually

abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and falls

out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several weeks

in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer several

years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of grandmother while

grandfada was in the hospital.

During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his girlfriend in

whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no place to live. I

forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or it was some

conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened, Brother and GF

lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house clean, and she

couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag them to clean up.

She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that was the last time

I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my brother

and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My brother had

just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all over town

complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw casually in

restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one or two

normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too. She

complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and complained

and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this from my

brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why is she

doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement and

this is looking really bad! "

I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that all over

the family to me?

I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with her. My

husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had spent

two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic, positive,

healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him: " Good grief,

look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have The Dance of

Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the Effed Up

FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put them into

practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the hospital and had

dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she needed to

deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his girlfriend, and

that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for instance,

because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were perhaps

misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right there and

heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said was bad.

However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things were

going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance was

sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a pretty

good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was seriously

wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said and come

up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my grandparents,

old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after something

like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with how she

acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said about her

behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining anything

all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her perceptions of

reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big one-eighty before

between what had actually happened and what she said had happened.

After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior in the

books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

Sorry if this is too long.

--.

[Guest guest]

" It was on the second day in this fabulous European city that nada brought it up

again, claiming that GA was still continuing to be mean to nada, ignoring nada,

giving nada the silent treatment.... and I KNEW that GA had not been doing any

such things because I'd been welded at the hip with both of them for 2 days. We

shared a room and had not been apart that whole time. And GA was clueless about

this, just kind of in a state of pure bliss at being in this amazing city she'd

always wanted to see her whole life. "

Yep. Seen this behavior before. Totally.

My sympathies to anyone who has to post a story on here. Especially the nada

with the pizza. Good Lord.

I was in my mid-thirties before anyone ever said that to me about my nada's

behavior.

--.

[Guest guest]

I knew something was wrong with my mom at a very early age probably when I

started school. She hardly ever left the house and therefore I couldn't either.

My second grade my teacher tried to intervene and set up " play dates " for me to

go to classmates' homes nearby mine and play as I never was able to develop

social skills. However, my mom wouldn't let me go because it was " too far "

(about 2-3 blocks away from our home).

I stumbled upon bpd a few years ago and after much research realized that's what

she has.

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let's see-- that must have been when I was in first grade, and I got punished

for telling my teacher that we didn't have a telephone at phone. She asked why

my mother hadn't called school, then she said, " Everybody has a telephone, this

is 1958! You're lying! "

I had been sick and out of school for a while- I'd lost track of how many days-

then I was put on the bus and sent to school one morning. The school thought

we'd probably moved and I wasn't coming back. They had given my place, desk and

my crayons and pencil box, to another kid. They were going to put me in another

classroom, but I cried and cried (couldn't help it, the tears kept slipping

out).

Then my mother went ballistic crazy at me, and the teacher and the principal - I

knew it wasn't normal behavior.

Gosh, I've forgotten- repressed, maybe? - so many memories that pop up when I'm

reading here. yikes.

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

(((((Chris)))))

I can imagine how much that would negatively impact a child, I'm so sorry you

had to experience that.

And its chilling to realize just how easily a child can simply slip through the

cracks and vanish with no questions asked. " Oh, that family must have moved

away. "

-Annie

>

> Let's see-- that must have been when I was in first grade, and I got punished

for telling my teacher that we didn't have a telephone at phone. She asked why

my mother hadn't called school, then she said, " Everybody has a telephone, this

is 1958! You're lying! "

>

> I had been sick and out of school for a while- I'd lost track of how many

days- then I was put on the bus and sent to school one morning. The school

thought we'd probably moved and I wasn't coming back. They had given my place,

desk and my crayons and pencil box, to another kid. They were going to put me in

another classroom, but I cried and cried (couldn't help it, the tears kept

slipping out).

>

> Then my mother went ballistic crazy at me, and the teacher and the principal -

I knew it wasn't normal behavior.

>

> Gosh, I've forgotten- repressed, maybe? - so many memories that pop up when

I'm reading here. yikes.

[Guest guest]

I didn't have my first " this isn't normal " moment until I was in my late

20s. I had been living away from home for about 8 years (my parents lived in

L.A. and I was living in New York City and working and living part-time in

San Francisco) and I was on tour in L.A., so I went to stay with my parents

for a few days. I've written about this before, but here's a quick synopsis.

Two things, one on top of the other, happened that made me realize this was

completely abnormal. I hadn't shaved my legs for a long time, and my parents

totally freaked out about it, and that freaking out included both my parents

screaming at the top of their lungs, and sobbing hysterically, and they were

so out of control that some neighbor called the police. The next day, I went

to lunch with an elderly friend of my parents (a really nice, sweet man) who

told me, when I confided in him that I'd been diagnosed with depression,

that my uncle, who'd died before I was born, had committed suicide, whereas

my parents had told me my uncle had been shot by a jealous girlfriend. When

I asked my parents about it, they went crazy again, screaming and crying and

cursing, and my father hauled off and punched me in the face. That totally

convinced me of my parents' abnormality, and I packed up real fast, left,

and never saw them again.

[Guest guest]

Wow. I'm so sorry that both of your parents were so dysfunctional, that must

have made trying to have a relationship with them exponentially harder to deal

with; bpd in surround-sound stereo. However, I'm glad that you were able to

escape from their dysfunction earlier in life, even though it was truly a

traumatic event or pair of events that did it. Yes: hysteria, rage and physical

violence; definitely in the " not normal " category, imho.

-Annie

>

> I didn't have my first " this isn't normal " moment until I was in my late

> 20s. I had been living away from home for about 8 years (my parents lived in

> L.A. and I was living in New York City and working and living part-time in

> San Francisco) and I was on tour in L.A., so I went to stay with my parents

> for a few days. I've written about this before, but here's a quick synopsis.

> Two things, one on top of the other, happened that made me realize this was

> completely abnormal. I hadn't shaved my legs for a long time, and my parents

> totally freaked out about it, and that freaking out included both my parents

> screaming at the top of their lungs, and sobbing hysterically, and they were

> so out of control that some neighbor called the police. The next day, I went

> to lunch with an elderly friend of my parents (a really nice, sweet man) who

> told me, when I confided in him that I'd been diagnosed with depression,

> that my uncle, who'd died before I was born, had committed suicide, whereas

> my parents had told me my uncle had been shot by a jealous girlfriend. When

> I asked my parents about it, they went crazy again, screaming and crying and

> cursing, and my father hauled off and punched me in the face. That totally

> convinced me of my parents' abnormality, and I packed up real fast, left,

> and never saw them again.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had two defining moments that stick in my mind:

The first was in my forties. DH and I bought a condo on the beach in a " rich

people town " just because we wanted to live on the beach - not because we are

rich or care about money or possessions. We are hippie types and don't care a

rat's patoozie about these things.

My parents were also looking for a condo, and they came to our condo on Easter

for lunch. Nada got to talking about how they hadn't found an apartment on the

island they wanted, and she said: Will you think less of us if we don't buy in

" rich people town? "

DH and DD and I all kind of stared at her - we had no idea what she meant, as

this was such a strange thing to say. Then she repeated:

" So you'll think we are lesser people if we don't buy our condo here? " And then

she got up, dragged my dad by the hand and stormed out while we just sat there

with our mouths hanging open.

Wow. Totally abnormal. That was the day I realized she was bat-shit crazy.

The second time I got whacked in the gut with her true insanity was years later.

I had smashed my kneecap into a gazillion pieces. We stayed with her in the

condo she bought for three weeks (no, not on rich people island, lol) because we

had sold ours, deciding we preferred living in a house.

I was in a wheelchair, and then on crutches, and in rehab, unable to drive, etc.

and she decided to kill herself but failed. At the hospital she told anyone who

would listen that the reason she had tried to kill herself with the overdose

(and nearly succeeded) was because - HER DAUGHTER DIDN " T INTERACT WITH HER

ENOUGH.

Yeah. The daughter who was still on crutches and couldn't drive and was in rehab

and yet was seeing that she had groceries in the house, everything she needed,

and spent a frigging hour on the phone with her every evening, and whom she had

treated HORRIBLY when said daughter was staying with her, calling her the QUEEN

when said daughter's husband helped her due to her infirmity.

That was not only the point where I realized she was beyond crazy, it was the

point where our relationship as mother and daughter was irretrievably broken for

all time.

Em

> Wow. I'm so sorry that both of your parents were so dysfunctional, that must

have made trying to have a relationship with them exponentially harder to deal

with; bpd in surround-sound stereo. However, I'm glad that you were able to

escape from their dysfunction earlier in life, even though it was truly a

traumatic event or pair of events that did it. Yes: hysteria, rage and physical

violence; definitely in the " not normal " category, imho.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

There are two moments that stand out in my mind.

1) Unsure if this is related to BPD neglect or straight-up poverty, but... I

recall going to a friend's house around the age of 12 and we were eating

something. My friend reached to pour a glass of milk and I almost had an anxiety

attack because I was afraid she would finish the milk. If we got milk and used

it up right away, you didn't get more until the following month. My friend

looked at me weird and said, " It's no big deal, we'll just get more tomorrow... "

and I was stunned.

I wasn't allowed to drink just a glass of milk and would get reprimanded for

being " wasteful " . It was for cereal only. Soon enough, I was told I was allergic

to milk and we didn't buy it at all.

2) I was at a friend's house doing homework when I called my mom to ask if I

could stay overnight. We had a big study project and I found that I could focus

with this friend (she had an INSANELY good work ethic). The school was walking

distance from her house and we shared clothes all the time. I had my books and

it was getting late to take the bus. Nada knows her parents well. I did

everything right. I was taking a gamble, though. Sometimes she said yes and

sometimes not.

This question sparked her into a rage, where she ended up screaming something

along the lines of " You'd better come home! Maybe you should be a heroin addict

hooker with a baby and live on the streets, then you would hurt less

people! " ...I repeated her words out of disbelief so my friend could hear me. My

friend was in complete shock - she was just blown away with what my own mother

just screamed at me...simply for asking to stay the night in a safe environment.

It's still an inside joke with that friend to this day.

Fun times!

K

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> > > since

> > > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> > while

> > > ago.)

> > > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> > > about

> > > the situation in general.

> > >

> > > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> > > that is

> > > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> > >

> > > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> > > mom

> > > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> > > don't

> > > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > > spiraled

> > > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> > to

> > > make

> > > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> > > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> > she

> > > put

> > > a pizza in the oven for us.

> > >

> > > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > > hug...and

> > > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> > that. "

> > >

> > >

> > > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> > course

> > > with

> > > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > > opener.

> > >

> > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Oooh...Just thought of another one. In 2008, I went on a trip with my nada to

Peru - a place she said she always wanted to go. This was what started the LC.

There are a million things about that trip that sucked, but this one stood out

as just bizarre.

We were searching for a place to sleep (hotel/hostel) in one town when she

started hurrying me through the streets, just telling me to hurry up. You don't

" hurry up " in some places - it's unsafe to just go anywhere to stay the night. I

had backpacked alone in South America before and was careful to choose somewhere

decent, with hot water, where there were no shady characters or mold. I know

what I'm doing over there.

So, I'm taking a 'tour' of this one place and she hurries off suddenly, looking

all anxious. When I go to check on her in the bathroom, she tells me that she

had to go pee and that she didn't make it to the bathroom in time. She had wet

herself. I was in such disbelief that I started to chuckle. She was mortified

and I told her I just didn't understand how she got into that situation. What

kind of adult doesn't say, " Hey, can we just stop for a sec? I have to go to the

bathroom. " She went all Waif and said she didn't want to interrupt me while I

was " doing my thing " . So she chose to wet herself instead of just going to the

bathroom when she had to go...because that would be inconvenient to me? WTF.

Attention-seeking to the max.

What was more inconvenient is that we had to find another hostel, dragging a

piss-soaked, moaning Waif around for another 20 minutes while I negotiated for a

hostel room in Spanish. Super fun trip.

K

>

> There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from before

the incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had been

sexually abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

>

> Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and falls

out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several weeks

in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer several

years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of grandmother while

grandfada was in the hospital.

>

> During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his girlfriend in

whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no place to live. I

forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or it was some

conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened, Brother and GF

lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house clean, and she

couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag them to clean up.

She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that was the last time

I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

>

> But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my

brother and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My

brother had just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all

over town complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw

casually in restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one

or two normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too.

She complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and

complained and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this

from my brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why

is she doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement

and this is looking really bad! "

>

> I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that all

over the family to me?

>

> I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with her.

My husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had spent

two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic, positive,

healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him: " Good grief,

look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have The Dance of

Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the Effed Up

FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put them into

practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the hospital and had

dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

>

> She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she needed

to deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his girlfriend,

and that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for instance,

because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were perhaps

misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

>

> Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right there and

heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said was bad.

>

> However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things were

going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance was

sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a pretty

good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

>

> The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

>

> This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was seriously

wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said and come

up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my grandparents,

old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after something

like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with how she

acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said about her

behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining anything

all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her perceptions of

reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big one-eighty before

between what had actually happened and what she said had happened.

>

> After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior in the

books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

>

> Sorry if this is too long.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Terri for creating this thread! Its so validating to hear about other

members' " lightbulb " moments, and its validating to hear that this can happen at

any stage of our lives. Some realize it in childhood, some as teens, some as

young adults, and others like me finally have our epiphany in middle age. But

the important thing is that we finally DO have that sudden shock of realization

that *my mother is (or father is or parents are) insane, and I didn't cause it,

and I can't cure it. Its not me! "

-Annie

>

> > Wow. I'm so sorry that both of your parents were so dysfunctional, that must

have made trying to have a relationship with them exponentially harder to deal

with; bpd in surround-sound stereo. However, I'm glad that you were able to

escape from their dysfunction earlier in life, even though it was truly a

traumatic event or pair of events that did it. Yes: hysteria, rage and physical

violence; definitely in the " not normal " category, imho.

> >

> > -Annie

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My A-HA! moment happened when I was in my early 20s. At the time I lived 2

hours away with my boyfriend and was attending school. A week earlier,

while I was visiting my hometown, my BPD mom's neighbor was getting rid of

her bed and asked if I could use it. I of course jumped on it because it

was bigger than the one we owned. I told her that I could not take it back

with me that weekend, but could come and get it in two weeks. She said she

was fine with that.

The next weekend, I was hosting a baby shower at my home for a friend. I

had been up cooking and baking all morning. Right before my guests arrived,

I got a call from my mom. She was in a rage. Apparently, the neighbor had

brought the bed over to her house and it was sitting in my mother's living

room and this made her livid. She screamed at me about how selfish I was

for leaving her with this burden. She demanded that I come and get the

bed. I told her that I couldn't because I was having a baby shower in 30

minutes for a friend. She then demanded that I call my boyfriend's parents

and have them come and pick the bed up and take it to their house. They

couldn't because they were out of town. She raged and told me how selfish

my boyfriend's parents were, too. The phone call got me so upset that I

started to cry and said that I didn't even want the bed and that she could

throw it away and that made her even angrier. She called me a drama queen

and I ended up hanging up on her...something I would have NEVER done in the

past.

Needless to say, the shower was awful for me. I was on edge all day long,

waiting and wondering what my mom was thinking about me hanging up on her.

When my boyfriend got home I told him about what had happened. Then my

phone rang. It was mom (mind you, this is hours after I had hung up on

her). I answered and she said, " DID YOU HANG UP ON ME??? " I replied,

" Yes. " Then she hung up on me. Real mature, huh?

That was the moment something clicked and I thought, " Moms shouldn't behave

this way. " My boyfriend's wonderful parents went over to my mom's and got

the bed as soon as they got back into town. Thank god for them!

On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 3:12 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Thanks Terri for creating this thread! Its so validating to hear about

> other members' " lightbulb " moments, and its validating to hear that this can

> happen at any stage of our lives. Some realize it in childhood, some as

> teens, some as young adults, and others like me finally have our epiphany in

> middle age. But the important thing is that we finally DO have that sudden

> shock of realization that *my mother is (or father is or parents are)

> insane, and I didn't cause it, and I can't cure it. Its not me! "

> -Annie

>

>

>

> >

> > > Wow. I'm so sorry that both of your parents were so dysfunctional, that

> must have made trying to have a relationship with them exponentially harder

> to deal with; bpd in surround-sound stereo. However, I'm glad that you were

> able to escape from their dysfunction earlier in life, even though it was

> truly a traumatic event or pair of events that did it. Yes: hysteria, rage

> and physical violence; definitely in the " not normal " category, imho.

> > >

> > > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

(((((K)))))

I can so relate to the " fun " of taking a nada on an overseas trip with you.

I tried three times to show my nada a good time by taking her on overseas trips

with me, and... I guess the third time was the charm, it finally became clear

that going on overseas trips with me triggered nada pretty badly. The first

trip was to South America and she was critical and bossy off and on, and at the

end had a hysterical break-down of crying in the airport because she thought I'd

abandoned her there. I hadn't, but I did end up having to rearrange my business

flight to hold her hand until her flight arrived. I felt guilty because she'd

been genuinely scared, and I felt amazed and hurt that she actually thought I'd

just dump her in a foreign airport! (Keep in mind that this all happened before

cel phones were in common use; a cel would have prevented THAT problem.)

So I tried again; the second overseas trip was to Europe. Nada got to bring our

dear old Great Aunt with her so she'd never feel alone for a second. That's

when nada developed paranoid delusions about Great Aunt, and kept it up for

pretty much the entire trip.

The third and final trip was to another European country, and nada got to choose

another traveling companion. This time it was an old friend of hers, a

neighbor. This friend came to me at one point and said, " I'm upset and scared,

I don't know what to do, your mother is having a kind of nervous breakdown and

won't stop crying! I don't know if I did something to hurt her feelings? She

won't talk to me! Can you talk to her? " And I just explained that mom had been

pretty emotionally labile since dad died, and she'd cry it out and be more

herself afterwards.

I think these breakdowns might have been partly due to something organic, like,

weird brain chemistry changes, and partly due to being in an unfamiliar place

and not in total, absolute control of everything like she is used to (and

instead, dependent on me) and perhaps partly due to the strain of having to act

nice and treat me kindly for days at a time instead of being judgmental,

un-pleasable, irritable and critical. (at least on the second two trips; she

was her usual snarky self on the first trip.)

(((((sigh)))))

I kind of feel that I am due three overseas trips with someone nice, to erase

those bad memories and replace them with good memories, ya know?

-Annie

> >

> > There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from before

the incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had been

sexually abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

> >

> > Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and

falls out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several

weeks in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer

several years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of

grandmother while grandfada was in the hospital.

> >

> > During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his girlfriend

in whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no place to live.

I forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or it was some

conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened, Brother and GF

lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house clean, and she

couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag them to clean up.

She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that was the last time

I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

> >

> > But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my

brother and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My

brother had just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all

over town complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw

casually in restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one

or two normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too.

She complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and

complained and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this

from my brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why

is she doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement

and this is looking really bad! "

> >

> > I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that all

over the family to me?

> >

> > I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with her.

My husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had spent

two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic, positive,

healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him: " Good grief,

look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have The Dance of

Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the Effed Up

FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put them into

practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the hospital and had

dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

> >

> > She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she needed

to deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his girlfriend,

and that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for instance,

because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were perhaps

misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

> >

> > Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right there

and heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said was

bad.

> >

> > However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things were

going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance was

sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a pretty

good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

> >

> > The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

> >

> > This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was seriously

wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said and come

up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my grandparents,

old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after something

like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with how she

acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said about her

behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining anything

all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her perceptions of

reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big one-eighty before

between what had actually happened and what she said had happened.

> >

> > After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior in

the books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

> >

> > Sorry if this is too long.

> >

> > --.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I knew on some level that my mom wasn't normal from age 10 or 11. I knew she

couldn't handle certain things and my needs had to be suppressed in order to

protect her. My dad did this too, so did Sis. This was our normal family

paradigm. It would take me another 30 years to fully question our family system.

The catalyst? A horrible trip to another country with nada so she could meet her

great grand baby. She was an impossible traveler, she complained constantly and

was always trying to take control of every situation and manipulate all the

players. The more her plans failed, the more abusive she became. The coup de

grace for me was during the only time she was in charge of her gr-grandbaby: she

screamed at the child for throwing a toy out of her playpen, accusing the baby

of " doing this to hurt gr-grandma " and swearing at her. Needless to say, I

opened a can of whoop ass on grand-nada when I heard her yelling at the baby.

Every day, I was emailing my dad with 'sanitized' versions of what was going on.

I couldn't say " Your wife is being an out of control bitch. " So instead I was

saying " Mom is having a real hard time. " Then I started researching what kind of

man allows his wife to shower him with tons of verbal abuse, and a description

of BPD popped out of the internet. That is how I finally made the connection to

BPD--took me almost 40 years to get here.

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am fascinated that so many people realized that something was wrong while

traveling with their nada, just like me.

I made the mistake of going on a trip with my mom while pregnant to get an

ultrasound so she could see the baby and make her feel more involved in the

pregnancy, I was just sick of hearing her whine. She injured herself and had to

go to the emergency room for something that was not an emergency, and then when

the doctor didn't tell her exactly what she wanted to hear we had to drive to

another emergency room and wait again with her. I understand now that she

couldn't handle me being more helpless than her. Can you picture us, one huge

pregnant girl toting all the bags, forced to wait hand and foot on poor injured

nada. It all blew up when I complained that I had no one to lift my 50 pound bag

since I was 8 months pregnant, and she told ME to " SUCK IT UP " because I had no

idea how SHE felt being old and injured.

That's just so messed up.

So after that, NO, she couldn't come to the hospital and trigger postpartum when

the baby was born. And I'm still paying for that:-(

> >

> > So, what was your 'moment'???

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Agreed. This whole thread is very validating. Thank you everyone for sharing

your experiences!

K

>

> Thanks Terri for creating this thread! Its so validating to hear about other

members' " lightbulb " moments, and its validating to hear that this can happen at

any stage of our lives. Some realize it in childhood, some as teens, some as

young adults, and others like me finally have our epiphany in middle age. But

the important thing is that we finally DO have that sudden shock of realization

that *my mother is (or father is or parents are) insane, and I didn't cause it,

and I can't cure it. Its not me! "

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

What a wonderful thread! Like many of you, I knew, my whole life, that

something was seriously wrong with nada--that she was especially mean, and

unfairly favored my split-good brother. But there's one incident in my mid-20s

that stands out as a real catalyst that made me start researching personality

disorders. Although I had started working full-time, I (very unwisely) decided

to make a trip home when I needed surgery done. I wish I could give more

details about it, but I am really fearful lately that nada or someone in my

family has found access to this list. She's a big Oprah fan and we are all so

well-known now! Anyway, I came home from the surgery, and was bed-ridden. I

had special dietary restrictions. At first nada met them with over-the-top,

sugary-sweet compliance. But then, I must have *said something to make her

split me black, because suddenly she decided I was the devil and did not deserve

her help any more. She went to get me food, and came back with this truly,

truly DISGUSTING array of dishes, that did NOT meet the requirements the doctor

had ordered.

Then, (suprise!) I developed a bad infection and fever, and needed re-treatment

immediately. Nada refused to call the doctor OR drive me to the hospital. I

was *bad, so I didn't deserve to have my basic health cared for, even if it were

to risk DEATH? Really??? I called the doctor myself and they of course said my

symptoms were very severe and rushed me in for an appointment. Then, when I

came home with the prescription to treat the infection, nada refused to go to

the drug store to get it. My np-Dad was present to see this, and, thank God, he

needed to pose as 'good' instead of her, so he snatched it from her hands, and

rushed off to the drug store. I had a post-surgical INFECTION, I needed the

medecine, I could not drive myself.

This was the first time I'd seen nada's full array of behavior since moving away

from home and starting my own career. It floored me, it was so the opposite of

actually *caring for her child, and I had now seen enough of the basic way

people treated each other--even strangers--to know something was up. After

that, I had an inkling, that eventually led me to research bpd, on the internet,

and then in books and my own therapy.

--Charlie

>

>

> I am fascinated that so many people realized that something was wrong while

traveling with their nada, just like me.

>

> I made the mistake of going on a trip with my mom while pregnant to get an

ultrasound so she could see the baby and make her feel more involved in the

pregnancy, I was just sick of hearing her whine. She injured herself and had to

go to the emergency room for something that was not an emergency, and then when

the doctor didn't tell her exactly what she wanted to hear we had to drive to

another emergency room and wait again with her. I understand now that she

couldn't handle me being more helpless than her. Can you picture us, one huge

pregnant girl toting all the bags, forced to wait hand and foot on poor injured

nada. It all blew up when I complained that I had no one to lift my 50 pound bag

since I was 8 months pregnant, and she told ME to " SUCK IT UP " because I had no

idea how SHE felt being old and injured.

>

> That's just so messed up.

> So after that, NO, she couldn't come to the hospital and trigger postpartum

when the baby was born. And I'm still paying for that:-(

>

>

> > >

> > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita, hi guys, happy Labor Day weekend. What a great question! I'm ashamed

to say that right up until middle age, Nada and Fada had me brainwashed into

thinking we were all perfectly " normal " and I was the one not coping well. I

thought everybody had empty, painful relationships with their families and they

just had better coping mechanisms than me. I still struggle with that belief

from time to time.

I was only 6 years old when I realized that Mommy didn't really want to hear the

truth about anything. If she asked me what happened, and the answer wasn't to

her liking, she went into a rage. So I learned early on that I had to carefully

" color " reality and what I said to keep her calm.

I guess my answer to the questions is: I discovered Mommy was divorced from

reality at 6 years old. As for finding " what's normal " I think I'm still

looking.

Wishing everybody a restful, peaceful weekend,

AFB

[Guest guest]

I needed this thread too.

Sometimes my memories of things that happened are candy-coated or just plain

blocked out.

I am 100% NC, and every once in a while when I am about to fall asleep, I still

feel like the Bad Selfish Daughter .

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Fri, September 2, 2011 11:48:17 PM

Subject: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

Agreed. This whole thread is very validating. Thank you everyone for sharing

your experiences!

K

>

> Thanks Terri for creating this thread! Its so validating to hear about other

>members' " lightbulb " moments, and its validating to hear that this can happen

at

>any stage of our lives. Some realize it in childhood, some as teens, some as

>young adults, and others like me finally have our epiphany in middle age. But

>the important thing is that we finally DO have that sudden shock of realization

>that *my mother is (or father is or parents are) insane, and I didn't cause it,

>and I can't cure it. Its not me! "

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

That just gives me chills to think of being bedridden and dependent and having

nada split you black, and actually torment you. That is the Witch, the nada who

actually, genuinely wants to make her child suffer, out of revenge or

resentment. Its truly scary.

As I was reading your post, it reminded me of the movie " Whatever Happened to

Baby Jane? "

-Annie

> >

> >

> > I am fascinated that so many people realized that something was wrong while

traveling with their nada, just like me.

> >

> > I made the mistake of going on a trip with my mom while pregnant to get an

ultrasound so she could see the baby and make her feel more involved in the

pregnancy, I was just sick of hearing her whine. She injured herself and had to

go to the emergency room for something that was not an emergency, and then when

the doctor didn't tell her exactly what she wanted to hear we had to drive to

another emergency room and wait again with her. I understand now that she

couldn't handle me being more helpless than her. Can you picture us, one huge

pregnant girl toting all the bags, forced to wait hand and foot on poor injured

nada. It all blew up when I complained that I had no one to lift my 50 pound bag

since I was 8 months pregnant, and she told ME to " SUCK IT UP " because I had no

idea how SHE felt being old and injured.

> >

> > That's just so messed up.

> > So after that, NO, she couldn't come to the hospital and trigger postpartum

when the baby was born. And I'm still paying for that:-(

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I agree, this is a terrific thread ! I realized, pretty early on 4 or 5,

that something was not quite ok at home, that Nada would sometimes act

strangely, as though her feelings had been hurt, sometimes accusing me of

having said done or thought something I hadn't, or sometimes " taking me to

the mat, " her code phrase for beating the living garp out of me for some

thought or attitude she was sure I was harboring. She would sometimes try to

make me admit to having said, done or thought things I had not, even when

she *knew* I had not, to prove to me she was in control.

She was also a master manipulator at getting other people, such as my

father, to discipline me for transgressions I had not committed. Sometimes

she just lied outright, sometimes, more insidiously, she would weave some

truth in with the lies, and some times she set situations up, gaslighting

really, like putting a half eaten sandwich under my bed, and making sure my

father found it, which set his anger issues off, and smirk at me, behind my

fathers back, as I was being disciplined. The really wierd thing, was that I

protected *her* for so long. In retrospect, I was so afraid, that if they

divorced, I would be left alone with her, and I knew the weirdness would

ramp up into full bore, full time batshit crazy, and I didn't think I could

survive.

Her most devastating and cruel attacks though, have been on my

credability. Her lifelong line of propaganda has been that, I " have such an

incredible imagination, an flighty and unreliable, mentally fragile and

unstable, in poor physical health, (she's been killing me off for years) and

am taking pain meds that leave me paranoid, (as a result, I am extremely

reluctant to take pain meds of any kind, even when I needed them for after

surgery pain.) sexually promiscuous, and on... and on... and on........

etc. I was so used to not being believed, that the only way I could defend

myself was to try to dissapear, not show pain or wounding, and keep a really

low profile.

Other aha moments for me have been when I realized thru observed or

experienced, the depths of her spitefulness, and passion for revenge, that

are truly terrifying, devistating, and cruel, and will give me nightmares

until the day I die.

She jetisonned me on a recent road trip, (what *is* it they have about

traveling?) leaving me in a hotel, 900 miles from my home, citing to friends

and family that I " attacked " her, and that she is afraid of me. She never

wants to hear from me again, which would be great, however, I know the way

she works, and when she runs out of sympathy for this B.S., she will make a

theatrical, full blown waif attempt to reconcile, which will glean more

sympathy and attention for herself, either in that she is such a benevelent

and loving mother to attempt to repair the frayed relationship with her

crazy daughter and was rejected, or, that she is such a benevelent and

loving mother to have accepted her crazy daughter's apology. If the past is

any indicator, she will show up on my doorstep with 1 or 2 friends in towe,

and make a fine scene.

My DH has insisted on putting up security cameras, an alarm system, and

has passed her picture and pictures of her car to our neighbors, with the

explanation that she is in the early, early stages of alzheimers, and is

being cared for in her home in another state, but that she ( and sometimes a

friend) manage to slip away, and go on " unannounced " trips, and although

she may seem ok, can become confused and afraid, and please if they see her

at our house, to call one of us immediately.

Our children have done something similiar, citing to thier appt. managers

that Nana loves make suprise visits ,and to cook, but, due to early onset

Alzheimers, sometimes forgets what she is doing, and leaves the burners on,

so to please change thier locks sisnce she has an emergency key, (She

actually stole mine) not let her waite for them in thier apts., and call

them immediately if she shows up at thier apts. This feels really awful,

but it's better than a suprise attack.

Oh by the way, another great BPD film, is Leave Her to Heaven. It's an old

film, and very watchable, nothing gross or in your face, but really good.

Let me know what you think.

I Wish I could be more specific about the actual aha moments, but I,

too, am afraid af the consequences of discovery by Nada.

Oh Well, Sunspot

> **

>

>

>

>

> I needed this thread too.

> Sometimes my memories of things that happened are candy-coated or just

> plain

> blocked out.

>

> I am 100% NC, and every once in a while when I am about to fall asleep, I

> still

> feel like the Bad Selfish Daughter .

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Fri, September 2, 2011 11:48:17 PM

> Subject: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

>

>

> Agreed. This whole thread is very validating. Thank you everyone for

> sharing

> your experiences!

>

> K

>

>

> >

> > Thanks Terri for creating this thread! Its so validating to hear about

> other

> >members' " lightbulb " moments, and its validating to hear that this can

> happen at

> >any stage of our lives. Some realize it in childhood, some as teens, some

> as

> >young adults, and others like me finally have our epiphany in middle age.

> But

> >the important thing is that we finally DO have that sudden shock of

> realization

> >that *my mother is (or father is or parents are) insane, and I didn't

> cause it,

> >and I can't cure it. Its not me! "

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

>