Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

[Guest guest]

Hi Sunspot,

Yes, its sad but necessary to protect ourselves when our nadas are actively

hostile, seeking revenge against us and behaving in obsessive, stalkerish ways.

Your nada sounds like a ramped-up version of mine, RE the accusing you of things

you didn't do or say and punishing you for it, even to the point of setting you

up for punishment by your father. My nada never went quite that far (actually

planting false evidence), mainly because she was the only disciplinarian in our

little nuclear family; dad was so uninvolved with actual child care that he

never disciplined us in any way. Which is pretty weird now that I think about

it.

I'm no psychologist, but your nada's behaviors might even be shading over into

antisocial pd. But then, from the reading I've been doing lately, some key

psychologists in the field of researching personality disorder (like Otto

Kernberg) have been theorizing that the Cluster B pds: histrionic pd,

narcissistic pd, borderline pd, and antisocial pd (and perhaps even psychopathy)

are interlinked with each other in more than just a few ways. They might be

more like petals on the same flower: different projections of the common core

injury that occurred in pre-verbal infancy, instead of being separate and

distinct disorders.

And yes, the film " Leave Her To Heaven " is very disturbing and was probably even

shocking in its time, I think its from the late 40's or early 50's? I think the

main character is probably a " walking Cluster B " , mainly featuring malignant

narcissistic pd of the very high-functioning type.

Other good old films that feature Cluster B characters are " Gaslight " , and " The

Barretts of Wimpole Street. " " Shadow of a Doubt " features a charming but

murderous uncle, but his behaviors are distinctly explained as being the result

of a traumatic brain injury as an older child, so, not exactly personality

disorder but the behaviors are the same as psychopathy.

Bette was in many films playing either a personality-disordered character

or the victim of a pd character. " Of Human Bondage " features Bette as Mildred,

a borderline pd; " Now, Voyager features a very controlling, domineering npd

mother and Bette as her enmeshed, repressed daughter (probably avoidant pd);

" All This And Heaven Too " features a very histrionic and borderline pd wife,

with Bette as the sweet and mistreated nanny she employs. In her later years

Bette plays " The Nanny " , whose pd I can't quite tease out, but she is clearly

disturbed and dangerous.

I guess all the most interesting film and literary characters have some

personality disorder or other, whether they're the villain or the hero of the

tale; intriguing to read about or watch in a film, but devastating to live with

and be raised by.

-Annie

>

> I agree, this is a terrific thread ! I realized, pretty early on 4 or 5,

> that something was not quite ok at home, that Nada would sometimes act

> strangely, as though her feelings had been hurt, sometimes accusing me of

> having said done or thought something I hadn't, or sometimes " taking me to

> the mat, " her code phrase for beating the living garp out of me for some

> thought or attitude she was sure I was harboring. She would sometimes try to

> make me admit to having said, done or thought things I had not, even when

> she *knew* I had not, to prove to me she was in control.

>

> She was also a master manipulator at getting other people, such as my

> father, to discipline me for transgressions I had not committed. Sometimes

> she just lied outright, sometimes, more insidiously, she would weave some

> truth in with the lies, and some times she set situations up, gaslighting

> really, like putting a half eaten sandwich under my bed, and making sure my

> father found it, which set his anger issues off, and smirk at me, behind my

> fathers back, as I was being disciplined. The really wierd thing, was that I

> protected *her* for so long. In retrospect, I was so afraid, that if they

> divorced, I would be left alone with her, and I knew the weirdness would

> ramp up into full bore, full time batshit crazy, and I didn't think I could

> survive.

>

> Her most devastating and cruel attacks though, have been on my

> credability. Her lifelong line of propaganda has been that, I " have such an

> incredible imagination, an flighty and unreliable, mentally fragile and

> unstable, in poor physical health, (she's been killing me off for years) and

> am taking pain meds that leave me paranoid, (as a result, I am extremely

> reluctant to take pain meds of any kind, even when I needed them for after

> surgery pain.) sexually promiscuous, and on... and on... and on........

> etc. I was so used to not being believed, that the only way I could defend

> myself was to try to dissapear, not show pain or wounding, and keep a really

> low profile.

>

> Other aha moments for me have been when I realized thru observed or

> experienced, the depths of her spitefulness, and passion for revenge, that

> are truly terrifying, devistating, and cruel, and will give me nightmares

> until the day I die.

>

> She jetisonned me on a recent road trip, (what *is* it they have about

> traveling?) leaving me in a hotel, 900 miles from my home, citing to friends

> and family that I " attacked " her, and that she is afraid of me. She never

> wants to hear from me again, which would be great, however, I know the way

> she works, and when she runs out of sympathy for this B.S., she will make a

> theatrical, full blown waif attempt to reconcile, which will glean more

> sympathy and attention for herself, either in that she is such a benevelent

> and loving mother to attempt to repair the frayed relationship with her

> crazy daughter and was rejected, or, that she is such a benevelent and

> loving mother to have accepted her crazy daughter's apology. If the past is

> any indicator, she will show up on my doorstep with 1 or 2 friends in towe,

> and make a fine scene.

>

> My DH has insisted on putting up security cameras, an alarm system, and

> has passed her picture and pictures of her car to our neighbors, with the

> explanation that she is in the early, early stages of alzheimers, and is

> being cared for in her home in another state, but that she ( and sometimes a

> friend) manage to slip away, and go on " unannounced " trips, and although

> she may seem ok, can become confused and afraid, and please if they see her

> at our house, to call one of us immediately.

> Our children have done something similiar, citing to thier appt. managers

> that Nana loves make suprise visits ,and to cook, but, due to early onset

> Alzheimers, sometimes forgets what she is doing, and leaves the burners on,

> so to please change thier locks sisnce she has an emergency key, (She

> actually stole mine) not let her waite for them in thier apts., and call

> them immediately if she shows up at thier apts. This feels really awful,

> but it's better than a suprise attack.

>

>

>

> Oh by the way, another great BPD film, is Leave Her to Heaven. It's an old

> film, and very watchable, nothing gross or in your face, but really good.

> Let me know what you think.

> I Wish I could be more specific about the actual aha moments, but I,

> too, am afraid af the consequences of discovery by Nada.

>

>

> Oh Well, Sunspot

[Guest guest]

Thanks Annie,

I have watched gaslight, both versions, over and over, since childhood.

These are two of my " go to " films for cinematherapy.

I hadn't thought about it, but you are right, so many of Bette '

roles do seem to explore the Pd spectrum. It makes one wonder, how much was

art, how much was experience and observation, and, was some of it in her

nature? Her portrayal of the Nanny is indeed disturbing, and Mildred is

totally pathetic and reprehensible !

The nice thing about films, is that not only do they end, but we can fast

forward, rewind, and watch them again, and again, until we work through the

issues that plague us!

Oh, by the way, the concentration camp scene is very brief, and very

early in the film, *Death in Love*, have your remote control ready, or by

the time you grab it, its over. Still, in support of mental hygiene, I don't

need to see that particular scene again. I wish there was a Cliff Notes

version. If you decide to see it, I'd be interested to know what you think.

Warm Regards, Sunspot

On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 4:49 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi Sunspot,

> Yes, its sad but necessary to protect ourselves when our nadas are actively

> hostile, seeking revenge against us and behaving in obsessive, stalkerish

> ways. Your nada sounds like a ramped-up version of mine, RE the accusing you

> of things you didn't do or say and punishing you for it, even to the point

> of setting you up for punishment by your father. My nada never went quite

> that far (actually planting false evidence), mainly because she was the only

> disciplinarian in our little nuclear family; dad was so uninvolved with

> actual child care that he never disciplined us in any way. Which is pretty

> weird now that I think about it.

>

> I'm no psychologist, but your nada's behaviors might even be shading over

> into antisocial pd. But then, from the reading I've been doing lately, some

> key psychologists in the field of researching personality disorder (like

> Otto Kernberg) have been theorizing that the Cluster B pds: histrionic pd,

> narcissistic pd, borderline pd, and antisocial pd (and perhaps even

> psychopathy) are interlinked with each other in more than just a few ways.

> They might be more like petals on the same flower: different projections of

> the common core injury that occurred in pre-verbal infancy, instead of being

> separate and distinct disorders.

>

> And yes, the film " Leave Her To Heaven " is very disturbing and was probably

> even shocking in its time, I think its from the late 40's or early 50's? I

> think the main character is probably a " walking Cluster B " , mainly featuring

> malignant narcissistic pd of the very high-functioning type.

>

> Other good old films that feature Cluster B characters are " Gaslight " , and

> " The Barretts of Wimpole Street. " " Shadow of a Doubt " features a charming

> but murderous uncle, but his behaviors are distinctly explained as being the

> result of a traumatic brain injury as an older child, so, not exactly

> personality disorder but the behaviors are the same as psychopathy.

>

> Bette was in many films playing either a personality-disordered

> character or the victim of a pd character. " Of Human Bondage " features Bette

> as Mildred, a borderline pd; " Now, Voyager features a very controlling,

> domineering npd mother and Bette as her enmeshed, repressed daughter

> (probably avoidant pd); " All This And Heaven Too " features a very histrionic

> and borderline pd wife, with Bette as the sweet and mistreated nanny she

> employs. In her later years Bette plays " The Nanny " , whose pd I can't quite

> tease out, but she is clearly disturbed and dangerous.

>

> I guess all the most interesting film and literary characters have some

> personality disorder or other, whether they're the villain or the hero of

> the tale; intriguing to read about or watch in a film, but devastating to

> live with and be raised by.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > I agree, this is a terrific thread ! I realized, pretty early on 4 or 5,

> > that something was not quite ok at home, that Nada would sometimes act

> > strangely, as though her feelings had been hurt, sometimes accusing me of

> > having said done or thought something I hadn't, or sometimes " taking me

> to

> > the mat, " her code phrase for beating the living garp out of me for some

> > thought or attitude she was sure I was harboring. She would sometimes try

> to

> > make me admit to having said, done or thought things I had not, even when

> > she *knew* I had not, to prove to me she was in control.

> >

> > She was also a master manipulator at getting other people, such as my

> > father, to discipline me for transgressions I had not committed.

> Sometimes

> > she just lied outright, sometimes, more insidiously, she would weave some

> > truth in with the lies, and some times she set situations up, gaslighting

> > really, like putting a half eaten sandwich under my bed, and making sure

> my

> > father found it, which set his anger issues off, and smirk at me, behind

> my

> > fathers back, as I was being disciplined. The really wierd thing, was

> that I

> > protected *her* for so long. In retrospect, I was so afraid, that if they

> > divorced, I would be left alone with her, and I knew the weirdness would

> > ramp up into full bore, full time batshit crazy, and I didn't think I

> could

> > survive.

> >

> > Her most devastating and cruel attacks though, have been on my

> > credability. Her lifelong line of propaganda has been that, I " have such

> an

> > incredible imagination, an flighty and unreliable, mentally fragile and

> > unstable, in poor physical health, (she's been killing me off for years)

> and

> > am taking pain meds that leave me paranoid, (as a result, I am extremely

> > reluctant to take pain meds of any kind, even when I needed them for

> after

> > surgery pain.) sexually promiscuous, and on... and on... and on........

> > etc. I was so used to not being believed, that the only way I could

> defend

> > myself was to try to dissapear, not show pain or wounding, and keep a

> really

> > low profile.

> >

> > Other aha moments for me have been when I realized thru observed or

> > experienced, the depths of her spitefulness, and passion for revenge,

> that

> > are truly terrifying, devistating, and cruel, and will give me nightmares

> > until the day I die.

> >

> > She jetisonned me on a recent road trip, (what *is* it they have about

> > traveling?) leaving me in a hotel, 900 miles from my home, citing to

> friends

> > and family that I " attacked " her, and that she is afraid of me. She never

> > wants to hear from me again, which would be great, however, I know the

> way

> > she works, and when she runs out of sympathy for this B.S., she will make

> a

> > theatrical, full blown waif attempt to reconcile, which will glean more

> > sympathy and attention for herself, either in that she is such a

> benevolent

> > and loving mother to attempt to repair the frayed relationship with her

> > crazy daughter and was rejected, or, that she is such a benevolent and

> > loving mother to have accepted her crazy daughter's apology. If the past

> is

> > any indicator, she will show up on my doorstep with 1 or 2 friends in

> towe,

> > and make a fine scene.

> >

> > My DH has insisted on putting up security cameras, an alarm system, and

> > has passed her picture and pictures of her car to our neighbors, with the

> > explanation that she is in the early, early stages of alzheimers, and is

> > being cared for in her home in another state, but that she ( and

> sometimes a

> > friend) manage to slip away, and go on " unannounced " trips, and although

> > she may seem ok, can become confused and afraid, and please if they see

> her

> > at our house, to call one of us immediately.

> > Our children have done something similiar, citing to thier appt. managers

> > that Nana loves make suprise visits ,and to cook, but, due to early onset

> > Alzheimers, sometimes forgets what she is doing, and leaves the burners

> on,

> > so to please change thier locks sisnce she has an emergency key, (She

> > actually stole mine) not let her waite for them in thier apts., and call

> > them immediately if she shows up at thier apts. This feels really awful,

> > but it's better than a suprise attack.

> >

> >

> >

> > Oh by the way, another great BPD film, is Leave Her to Heaven. It's an

> old

> > film, and very watchable, nothing gross or in your face, but really good.

> > Let me know what you think.

> > I Wish I could be more specific about the actual aha moments, but I,

> > too, am afraid af the consequences of discovery by Nada.

> >

> >

> > Oh Well, Sunspot

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Threads like this one are the things that need to be in a book or on a website

somewhere, to educate the public.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

OMG this sounds exactly like my nada! - Deanna

>

> There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from before

the incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had been

sexually abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

>

> Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and falls

out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several weeks

in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer several

years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of grandmother while

grandfada was in the hospital.

>

> During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his girlfriend in

whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no place to live. I

forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or it was some

conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened, Brother and GF

lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house clean, and she

couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag them to clean up.

She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that was the last time

I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

>

> But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my

brother and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My

brother had just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all

over town complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw

casually in restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one

or two normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too.

She complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and

complained and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this

from my brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why

is she doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement

and this is looking really bad! "

>

> I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that all

over the family to me?

>

> I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with her.

My husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had spent

two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic, positive,

healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him: " Good grief,

look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have The Dance of

Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the Effed Up

FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put them into

practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the hospital and had

dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

>

> She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she needed

to deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his girlfriend,

and that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for instance,

because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were perhaps

misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

>

> Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right there and

heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said was bad.

>

> However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things were

going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance was

sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a pretty

good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

>

> The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

>

> This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was seriously

wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said and come

up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my grandparents,

old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after something

like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with how she

acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said about her

behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining anything

all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her perceptions of

reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big one-eighty before

between what had actually happened and what she said had happened.

>

> After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior in the

books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

>

> Sorry if this is too long.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Oh my gosh, Terri! I have had the same experience, just as I am drifting off to

sleep, and it shakes me awake with a start. Unfortunately, I did not think to

trademark it! Seriously, I have the same experience; your post made me

laugh!

- Deanna

>

>

>

> I needed this thread too.

> Sometimes my memories of things that happened are candy-coated or just plain

> blocked out.

>

> I am 100% NC, and every once in a while when I am about to fall asleep, I

still

> feel like the Bad Selfish Daughter .

[Guest guest]

Deanna,

Does your nada actually have the diagnosis? Because if ours does, she dropped

out of her last therapy without telling anyone about it.

--.

[Guest guest]

No , she has never seen a therapist as far as I know. I have that book

" Surviving the Borderline Parent " and according to the quiz in that book, my

experience is that of an adult child of a borderline. Also, my therapist and my

naturopath (who used to work in a psych ward) both think she sounds borderline.

Deanna

>

> Deanna,

>

> Does your nada actually have the diagnosis? Because if ours does, she dropped

out of her last therapy without telling anyone about it.

>

> --.

>

[Guest guest]

Hehe, I am glad you could laugh.

I think laughing through half of my life helped me survive.

Did yours tend to wake you up to yell/rage/etc. in the middle of the night?

I think that is why I have so many sleep issues.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, September 4, 2011 10:07:43 PM

Subject: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

Oh my gosh, Terri! I have had the same experience, just as I am drifting off to

sleep, and it shakes me awake with a start. Unfortunately, I did not think to

trademark it! Seriously, I have the same experience; your post made me

laugh!

- Deanna

>

>

>

> I needed this thread too.

> Sometimes my memories of things that happened are candy-coated or just plain

> blocked out.

>

> I am 100% NC, and every once in a while when I am about to fall asleep, I

still

>

> feel like the Bad Selfish Daughter .

[Guest guest]

anuria67854 - Oh yeah, I know what you mean there. When people ask me how Peru

was, it's sort of hard for me to answer. My experience was SO limited to

babysitting nada that I didn't get the intimate experience that I would have

gotten alone or with another travel companion. The part I most enjoyed was

actually an emergency bus ride to and from a town 3 hours away to access an ATM

(to pay the hotel we were staying at - my fault for assuming the fishing village

might have an international ATM like they all did in Ecuador), which meant I had

7 blissful hours away from nada on our 2 week trip. She was positively

hysterical about the whole thing, but I thought it was great fun.

Honestly, I'm not even sure I would like to go back to make my memories " right " .

I will go to other countries and make new memories.

K

> > >

> > > There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from

before the incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had

been sexually abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

> > >

> > > Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and

falls out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several

weeks in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer

several years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of

grandmother while grandfada was in the hospital.

> > >

> > > During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his girlfriend

in whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no place to live.

I forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or it was some

conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened, Brother and GF

lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house clean, and she

couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag them to clean up.

She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that was the last time

I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

> > >

> > > But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my

brother and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My

brother had just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all

over town complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw

casually in restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one

or two normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too.

She complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and

complained and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this

from my brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why

is she doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement

and this is looking really bad! "

> > >

> > > I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that

all over the family to me?

> > >

> > > I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with

her. My husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had

spent two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic,

positive, healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him:

" Good grief, look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have

The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the

Effed Up FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put

them into practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the

hospital and had dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

> > >

> > > She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she

needed to deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his

girlfriend, and that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for

instance, because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were

perhaps misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

> > >

> > > Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right there

and heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said was

bad.

> > >

> > > However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things

were going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance

was sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a

pretty good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

> > >

> > > The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

> > >

> > > This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was seriously

wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said and come

up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my grandparents,

old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after something

like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with how she

acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said about her

behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining anything

all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her perceptions of

reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big one-eighty before

between what had actually happened and what she said had happened.

> > >

> > > After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior in

the books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

> > >

> > > Sorry if this is too long.

> > >

> > > --.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to contemplate it for

a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more cumbersome for me to

reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder if it is worth

posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it will help me and

someone else as well, if I do share.

I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I suspect it

was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom was off, was

because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in kindergarten. I can

only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past few years (I'm 53), that I

have stopped thinking it was just my imagination that I experienced trauma. I

accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I made it through the rest of my

childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because of our separation that I have a body

memory of my own. If my mom could have, she would have denied that her " illness "

ever occurred, but I think the doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest.

I still can feel the heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief....

in the weeks when she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and

zoned out I felt in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home,

while my dad was at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate

human being. Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural

response even if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until

nada really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada precociously, I am

realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was off, was

because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came to stay with us

for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There are great pictures

of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet and light. My aunt

laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like hell, to get away

from the influence of nada's presence. She referred later to my mom as the

Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about Oz. Interesting

coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a special bond.

I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural scientist

that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure my aunt (who has

a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share where the bear sh-ts in

the woods...) simply validated some of my own little-girl thoughts about my mom,

that I likely would not have admitted to myself, without this older " role

model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my mom's oddness, but I know that

even her actions would have planted a seed of awareness in me. It also made me

want to be independent just like I saw my aunt being...

I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left knowing

something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so that my dad

would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that I would not know

how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out as a little girl. I

would try to be so good, and then I would have to express my child nature to be

spontaneous and get into trouble.

It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home, by

holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that if I

held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house, where I

could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that when I

would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my faith in God.

I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was very disappointed,

but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my nature. For I

am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my mom, even as

I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed boundaries, and simply being

honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To protect myself and to have

privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed me for a long time. Lying did not

make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I

felt that I deserved to be abused because I lied to her. What a horrible double

bind!

As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I had

just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my own truth.

And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly for me

just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification with my nada,

feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked just like her.

Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this visceral feeling like I too

must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply refused to hide my

kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not work!

~

[Guest guest]

I have a fuzzy memory of my father catching nada slapping me across the face. I

think I was three or four years old. My dad grabbed her by the arm and told her

if he ever caught her hitting my face again that he would hit her face. It did

finally put a stop to her smacking me across the face for a long time. I think

that was my earliest conscience memory of something wasn't right.

I think there were many aha moments for me, because you get used to the crazy

and unreasonableness of it all until something just over the top happens. I

would be petrified to tell her some stuff and she would act all normal like it

was no big deal, then other little things would cause her to fly into rages.

I remember leaving my bike at school one time. I would walk sometimes too, and I

forgot that I had ridden it. I went to the drug store with a friend of mine

after school. I called my nada to see if she would come give us a ride home, so

we wouldn't have to walk home. When she asked me where my bike was my heart just

sunk to my toes as I realized it had been left at school. She screamed and raged

at me until I was in tears. I walked back to my school shaking and praying my

bike was still there. I just remember thinking that moms weren't supposed to

scream at their kids about stuff like this.

I had the typical moment in high school when she decided to inform me that I

looked like a " slut " this seems to be a common moment between daughters and

nadas. I actually looked quite cute and sporty, but it was a mini skirt that

went at least six inches BELOW my bottom, unlike the ones that came along a few

years later that BARELY covered your butt.

My dad also decided to inform me when I was in grade school that nada had a

breakdown when I was an infant and was hospitalized for at least six months. I'm

not sure what her official diagnosis was back then ( the late sixties) but I

think it was borderline psychosis with paranoia. I lived with and aunt and uncle

for that whole time. Even knowing this I would still get sucked into her crap on

a regular basis.

Carla

[Guest guest]

I know I'm late coming into this thread but it's a good question, so...

first of all, Terri, how embarrassing and sad it must've been for you when your

mother had that outburst in front of your friend. I'm sure it was eye-opening to

see your friend's response.

For me, my moment, which I remembered recently, was on a New Year's Eve. I was

about 14. My mother announced at around 8pm that at midnight, my father would be

giving me a bath, as in thoroughly cleaning me like when I was a child; and my

mother would be doing the same to my brother, who was 17.

I know it doesn't sound like much, but I remember how unsafe I felt. She said

it several times. The first few times, I blew her off like it was a joke, but

the more she said it, the more I thought it was true and I was very afraid.

Finally, my father told her to shut up and stop saying it and she said it was a

joke. At the time, I was relieved, but when I remembered it recently, I thought

of how sick it was that she liked to joke at my expense, esp a sick joke like

that.

She liked to " joke " about my small forehead being a sign of my lack of

intelligence and other stuff like that. But the New Year's Eve incident was the

first time I remember thinking how unsafe my family was to me.

Fiona

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

WOW! That is absolutely crazy. That's not something you joke about--that's

so creepy! I'm glad that your dad finally told her to shut up.

That reminds me of when my dad was " joking " about my brother being in SO

MUCH TROUBLE and that he was in for a huge spanking. My brother was scared

shitless, and bent over the couch preparing for a spanking, when my fada

finally said " April Fools! "

fada still jokes about it. But I'm glad that I now realize how sick it was.

I wish my mom told him to stop it, but she was so used to being passive

during his rages.

> **

>

>

> I know I'm late coming into this thread but it's a good question, so...

>

> first of all, Terri, how embarrassing and sad it must've been for you when

> your mother had that outburst in front of your friend. I'm sure it was

> eye-opening to see your friend's response.

>

> For me, my moment, which I remembered recently, was on a New Year's Eve. I

> was about 14. My mother announced at around 8pm that at midnight, my father

> would be giving me a bath, as in thoroughly cleaning me like when I was a

> child; and my mother would be doing the same to my brother, who was 17.

>

> I know it doesn't sound like much, but I remember how unsafe I felt. She

> said it several times. The first few times, I blew her off like it was a

> joke, but the more she said it, the more I thought it was true and I was

> very afraid.

>

> Finally, my father told her to shut up and stop saying it and she said it

> was a joke. At the time, I was relieved, but when I remembered it recently,

> I thought of how sick it was that she liked to joke at my expense, esp a

> sick joke like that.

>

> She liked to " joke " about my small forehead being a sign of my lack of

> intelligence and other stuff like that. But the New Year's Eve incident was

> the first time I remember thinking how unsafe my family was to me.

>

> Fiona

>

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> since

> > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> while ago.)

> > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> about

> > the situation in general.

> >

> > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> that is

> > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> >

> > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> mom

> > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> don't

> > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> spiraled

> > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> to make

> > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

>

> > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> she put

> > a pizza in the oven for us.

> >

> > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> hug...and

> > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> that. "

> >

> > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> course with

> > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> opener.

> >

> >

> > So, what was your 'moment'???

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi , I'm so glad you added to this post. I got a lot out of your story.

How poignant to picture you holding up your little hand for Jesus to take you

away. Wow. I'm so glad you had an aunt to model some sane behavior for a while.

When I was 4, I was being babysat by a sane adult who came over for a few hours

while nada and fada were out. I went to the cutlery drawer, (which was readily

accessible in a low drawer) took out the big knife used for cutting bread and

held it to my throat. I was trying to show her that I wasn't in a safe place.

She was very shocked and said, " Don't do that, " and she had me hand her the

knife. She didn't tell nada and fada and it's a good thing, because they would

have only turned on me and punished me for it.

I also identified with your lying and the feelings of shame. I spent a large

part of my childhood being crippled with shame because I was being told on a

daily basis how horrible and ugly I was. At times, I could hardly hold my head

up I felt so bad about being me. If I was called upon to speak in school, I

blushed as red as a radish and could hardly get the answer out. My teachers

looked at me curiously. They just thought I was an odd kid, I guess. They had no

idea, and no curiosity, that I was being mentally and physically tortured at

home.

And finally, yes, I got the face slapping too. Is there a BPD training school

where mothers go to learn this stuff?

I'm glad you are finally free, . Bless you.

AFB

>

> I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to contemplate it

for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more cumbersome for me

to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder if it is

worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it will help me

and someone else as well, if I do share.

>

> I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I suspect it

was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom was off, was

because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in kindergarten. I can

only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past few years (I'm 53), that I

have stopped thinking it was just my imagination that I experienced trauma. I

accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I made it through the rest of my

childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because of our separation that I have a body

memory of my own. If my mom could have, she would have denied that her " illness "

ever occurred, but I think the doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest.

I still can feel the heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief....

in the weeks when she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and

zoned out I felt in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home,

while my dad was at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate

human being. Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural

response even if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until

nada really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

>

> Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada precociously, I

am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was off, was

because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came to stay with us

for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There are great pictures

of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet and light. My aunt

laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like hell, to get away

from the influence of nada's presence. She referred later to my mom as the

Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about Oz. Interesting

coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a special bond.

>

> I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure my

aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share where the

bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own little-girl thoughts

about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself, without this

older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my mom's oddness, but I

know that even her actions would have planted a seed of awareness in me. It also

made me want to be independent just like I saw my aunt being...

>

> I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left knowing

something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so that my dad

would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that I would not know

how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out as a little girl. I

would try to be so good, and then I would have to express my child nature to be

spontaneous and get into trouble.

>

> It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home, by

holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that if I

held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house, where I

could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that when I

would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my faith in God.

I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was very disappointed,

but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

>

> It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my nature. For I

am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my mom, even as

I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed boundaries, and simply being

honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To protect myself and to have

privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed me for a long time. Lying did not

make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I

felt that I deserved to be abused because I lied to her. What a horrible double

bind!

>

> As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I had

just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my own truth.

And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

>

> I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly for me

just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification with my nada,

feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked just like her.

Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this visceral feeling like I too

must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply refused to hide my

kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not work!

>

> ~

>

>

[Guest guest]

My parent have a story about being camping with family when my bro was 2 - I

suspect nada was preggers with me. Anyway my brother asked for bread and

jam. My dad made it for him. He didn't eat it. So my dad smushed it into his

face.

WTF????? It was my family's favorite FUNNY story. I'm like that's abuse.

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:02 AM, awayfromborderland <

awayfromborderland@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

> Hi , I'm so glad you added to this post. I got a lot out of your

> story. How poignant to picture you holding up your little hand for Jesus to

> take you away. Wow. I'm so glad you had an aunt to model some sane behavior

> for a while.

>

> When I was 4, I was being babysat by a sane adult who came over for a few

> hours while nada and fada were out. I went to the cutlery drawer, (which was

> readily accessible in a low drawer) took out the big knife used for cutting

> bread and held it to my throat. I was trying to show her that I wasn't in a

> safe place. She was very shocked and said, " Don't do that, " and she had me

> hand her the knife. She didn't tell nada and fada and it's a good thing,

> because they would have only turned on me and punished me for it.

>

> I also identified with your lying and the feelings of shame. I spent a

> large part of my childhood being crippled with shame because I was being

> told on a daily basis how horrible and ugly I was. At times, I could hardly

> hold my head up I felt so bad about being me. If I was called upon to speak

> in school, I blushed as red as a radish and could hardly get the answer out.

> My teachers looked at me curiously. They just thought I was an odd kid, I

> guess. They had no idea, and no curiosity, that I was being mental, ly and

> physically tortured at home.

>

> And finally, yes, I got the face slapping too. Is there a BPD training

> school where mothers go to learn this stuff?

>

> I'm glad you are finally free, . Bless you.

> AFB

>

>

>

> >

> > I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to contemplate

> it for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more cumbersome

> for me to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder if

> it is worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it

> will help me and someone else as well, if I do share.

> >

> > I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I

> suspect it was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom was

> off, was because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in

> kindergarten. I can only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past

> few years (I'm 53), that I have stopped thinking it was just my imagination

> that I experienced trauma. I accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I

> made it through the rest of my childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because of

> our separation that I have a body memory of my own. If my mom could have,

> she would have denied that her " illness " ever occurred, but I think the

> doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest. I still can feel the

> heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief.... in the weeks when

> she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and zoned out I felt

> in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home, while my dad was

> at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate human being.

> Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural response even

> if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until nada

> really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

> >

> > Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada precociously,

> I am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was

> off, was because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came to

> stay with us for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There are

> great pictures of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet and

> light. My aunt laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like

> hell, to get away from the influence of nada's presence. She referred later

> to my mom as the Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about Oz.

> Interesting coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a special

> bond.

> >

> > I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

> scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure my

> aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share where

> the bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own little-girl

> thoughts about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself,

> without this older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my mom's

> oddness, but I know that even her actions would have planted a seed of

> awareness in me. It also made me want to be independent just like I saw my

> aunt being...

> >

> > I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left

> knowing something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so

> that my dad would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that I

> would not know how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out as

> a little girl. I would try to be so good, and then I would have to express

> my child nature to be spontaneous and get into trouble.

> >

> > It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home, by

> holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that if I

> held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house, where

> I could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that

> when I would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my

> faith in God. I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was

> very disappointed, but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

> >

> > It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my nature.

> For I am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my

> mom, even as I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed boundaries,

> and simply being honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To

> protect myself and to have privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed me

> for a long time. Lying did not make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder

> what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I felt that I deserved to be abused

> because I lied to her. What a horrible double bind!

> >

> > As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I

> had just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my

> own truth. And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

> >

> > I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly

> for me just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification with

> my nada, feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked

> just like her. Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this visceral

> feeling like I too must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply

> refused to hide my kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not

> work!

> >

> > ~

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ditto that! WTF??

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> My parent have a story about being camping with family when my bro was 2 -

> I

> suspect nada was preggers with me. Anyway my brother asked for bread and

> jam. My dad made it for him. He didn't eat it. So my dad smushed it into

> his

> face.

>

> WTF????? It was my family's favorite FUNNY story. I'm like that's abuse.

>

> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:02 AM, awayfromborderland <

> awayfromborderland@...> wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hi , I'm so glad you added to this post. I got a lot out of your

> > story. How poignant to picture you holding up your little hand for Jesus

> to

> > take you away. Wow. I'm so glad you had an aunt to model some sane

> behavior

> > for a while.

> >

> > When I was 4, I was being babysat by a sane adult who came over for a few

> > hours while nada and fada were out. I went to the cutlery drawer, (which

> was

> > readily accessible in a low drawer) took out the big knife used for

> cutting

> > bread and held it to my throat. I was trying to show her that I wasn't in

> a

> > safe place. She was very shocked and said, " Don't do that, " and she had

> me

> > hand her the knife. She didn't tell nada and fada and it's a good thing,

> > because they would have only turned on me and punished me for it.

> >

> > I also identified with your lying and the feelings of shame. I spent a

> > large part of my childhood being crippled with shame because I was being

> > told on a daily basis how horrible and ugly I was. At times, I could

> hardly

> > hold my head up I felt so bad about being me. If I was called upon to

> speak

> > in school, I blushed as red as a radish and could hardly get the answer

> out.

> > My teachers looked at me curiously. They just thought I was an odd kid, I

> > guess. They had no idea, and no curiosity, that I was being mental, ly

> and

> > physically tortured at home.

> >

> > And finally, yes, I got the face slapping too. Is there a BPD training

> > school where mothers go to learn this stuff?

> >

> > I'm glad you are finally free, . Bless you.

> > AFB

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to

> contemplate

> > it for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more

> cumbersome

> > for me to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder

> if

> > it is worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it

> > will help me and someone else as well, if I do share.

> > >

> > > I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I

> > suspect it was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom

> was

> > off, was because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in

> > kindergarten. I can only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past

> > few years (I'm 53), that I have stopped thinking it was just my

> imagination

> > that I experienced trauma. I accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I

> > made it through the rest of my childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because

> of

> > our separation that I have a body memory of my own. If my mom could have,

> > she would have denied that her " illness " ever occurred, but I think the

> > doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest. I still can feel the

> > heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief.... in the weeks

> when

> > she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and zoned out I

> felt

> > in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home, while my dad

> was

> > at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate human

> being.

> > Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural response

> even

> > if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until nada

> > really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

> > >

> > > Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada

> precociously,

> > I am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was

> > off, was because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came

> to

> > stay with us for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There

> are

> > great pictures of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet

> and

> > light. My aunt laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like

> > hell, to get away from the influence of nada's presence. She referred

> later

> > to my mom as the Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about

> Oz.

> > Interesting coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a

> special

> > bond.

> > >

> > > I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

> > scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure

> my

> > aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share

> where

> > the bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own

> little-girl

> > thoughts about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself,

> > without this older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my

> mom's

> > oddness, but I know that even her actions would have planted a seed of

> > awareness in me. It also made me want to be independent just like I saw

> my

> > aunt being...

> > >

> > > I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left

> > knowing something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so

> > that my dad would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that

> I

> > would not know how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out

> as

> > a little girl. I would try to be so good, and then I would have to

> express

> > my child nature to be spontaneous and get into trouble.

> > >

> > > It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home,

> by

> > holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that

> if I

> > held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house,

> where

> > I could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that

> > when I would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my

> > faith in God. I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was

> > very disappointed, but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

> > >

> > > It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my

> nature.

> > For I am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my

> > mom, even as I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed

> boundaries,

> > and simply being honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To

> > protect myself and to have privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed

> me

> > for a long time. Lying did not make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder

> > what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I felt that I deserved to be abused

> > because I lied to her. What a horrible double bind!

> > >

> > > As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I

> > had just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my

> > own truth. And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

> > >

> > > I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly

> > for me just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification

> with

> > my nada, feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked

> > just like her. Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this

> visceral

> > feeling like I too must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply

> > refused to hide my kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not

> > work!

> > >

> > > ~

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

" Teasing " someone repeatedly/chronically who clearly is not enjoying the teasing

and is not in a position to protest or defend himself/herself, and has actually

asked for the teasing to stop because its hurting... then " teasing " is actually

bullying.

Making " jokes " at another's expense (particularly someone who is in no position

to " joke " back with the teaser in kind) is in fact showing real hostility toward

said individual but in a passive-aggressive, plausibly-deniable way: " Geez, I

was only joking. You're too sensitive. "

If the teasing victim were to " play " back in kind, the bully would probably

burst into tears, become " hurt " , sulk, and play the injured party to the

hilt. ( " Well of course with that melon of a forehead you're sporting, a

normal-sized forehead would look small to you! I've heard there are cures for

hydrocephalus these days, have you thought about looking into that? I can fix

my hair many different ways to look great with my forehead, but you can't fix

" mean and stupid. " Too bad for you. " )

Or, like my nada perhaps, the " teasing " might be an intentional effort to poke,

poke, poke me and provoke me into defending myself, so that she would then have

an excuse to launch into a verbal fight with me. The relentless nit-picking and

critical remarks were more often nada's tactic (with dad and me mostly, but

Sister too sometimes) but occasionally she'd " tease " me in that subtly hostile

way, then when I'd react, I was " surly " or " humorless " and " couldn't take a

joke. "

Its bullying.

-Annie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> > the situation in general.

> >

> > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

that is

> > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> >

> > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

mom

> > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> > a pizza in the oven for us.

> >

> > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

hug...and

> > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

> >

> > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

> >

> >

> > So, what was your 'moment'???

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, deliberately terrifying a little child by threatening a harsh punishment as

a " joke " is actually very hostile, cruel, and even sadistic. Makes me want to

pinch your dad's head off like a bug.

-Annie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

> > since

> > > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> > while ago.)

> > > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

> > about

> > > the situation in general.

> > >

> > > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> > that is

> > > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> > >

> > > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My

> > mom

> > > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> > don't

> > > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > spiraled

> > > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> > to make

> > > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> >

> > > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> > she put

> > > a pizza in the oven for us.

> > >

> > > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > hug...and

> > > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> > that. "

> > >

> > > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> > course with

> > > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > opener.

> > >

> > >

> > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Annie,

Ditto that feeling. There are times I wish I could turn the tables on him,

except for the fact it'd be abusive right back at him. But oh, would that

feel good to yell at him for all the damage he's done. My brother, who I

think was 9 at the time, was so angry and relieved afterward. I think my dad

was kind of disappointed that my brother and I didn't laugh along with him.

I wonder if my dad will joke about that in a book he's working on. Some sort

of memoir about guy talk--I found out on one of his defunct websites.

Holly

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:49 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

> **

>

>

> Yes, deliberately terrifying a little child by threatening a harsh

> punishment as a " joke " is actually very hostile, cruel, and even sadistic.

> Makes me want to pinch your dad's head off like a bug.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my

> nada

> > > since

> > > > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> > > while ago.)

> > > > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger

> outbursts

> > > about

> > > > the situation in general.

> > > >

> > > > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School,

> and

> > > that is

> > > > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> > > >

> > > > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video

> games. My

> > > mom

> > > > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid,

> I

> > > don't

> > > > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > > spiraled

> > > > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never

> going

> > > to make

> > > > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend.

> Literally 5

> > >

> > > > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us

> that

> > > she put

> > > > a pizza in the oven for us.

> > > >

> > > > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > > hug...and

> > > > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> > > that. "

> > > >

> > > > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> > > course with

> > > > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > > opener.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I agree, your parents were/are abusive. (in my best sarcastic tone) " Oh, Yes,

an adult physically attacking a two year old is just *hilarious*. What a card! "

-Annie

> > >

> > > I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to contemplate

> > it for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more cumbersome

> > for me to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder if

> > it is worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it

> > will help me and someone else as well, if I do share.

> > >

> > > I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I

> > suspect it was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom was

> > off, was because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in

> > kindergarten. I can only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past

> > few years (I'm 53), that I have stopped thinking it was just my imagination

> > that I experienced trauma. I accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I

> > made it through the rest of my childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because of

> > our separation that I have a body memory of my own. If my mom could have,

> > she would have denied that her " illness " ever occurred, but I think the

> > doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest. I still can feel the

> > heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief.... in the weeks when

> > she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and zoned out I felt

> > in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home, while my dad was

> > at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate human being.

> > Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural response even

> > if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until nada

> > really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

> > >

> > > Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada precociously,

> > I am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was

> > off, was because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came to

> > stay with us for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There are

> > great pictures of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet and

> > light. My aunt laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like

> > hell, to get away from the influence of nada's presence. She referred later

> > to my mom as the Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about Oz.

> > Interesting coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a special

> > bond.

> > >

> > > I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

> > scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure my

> > aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share where

> > the bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own little-girl

> > thoughts about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself,

> > without this older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my mom's

> > oddness, but I know that even her actions would have planted a seed of

> > awareness in me. It also made me want to be independent just like I saw my

> > aunt being...

> > >

> > > I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left

> > knowing something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so

> > that my dad would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that I

> > would not know how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out as

> > a little girl. I would try to be so good, and then I would have to express

> > my child nature to be spontaneous and get into trouble.

> > >

> > > It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home, by

> > holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that if I

> > held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house, where

> > I could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that

> > when I would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my

> > faith in God. I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was

> > very disappointed, but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

> > >

> > > It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my nature.

> > For I am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my

> > mom, even as I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed boundaries,

> > and simply being honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To

> > protect myself and to have privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed me

> > for a long time. Lying did not make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder

> > what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I felt that I deserved to be abused

> > because I lied to her. What a horrible double bind!

> > >

> > > As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I

> > had just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my

> > own truth. And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

> > >

> > > I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly

> > for me just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification with

> > my nada, feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked

> > just like her. Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this visceral

> > feeling like I too must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply

> > refused to hide my kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not

> > work!

> > >

> > > ~

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Ugh, that is awful!!

Reminds me of one my mom's favorite stories.

I drank a lot of water when I was a kid (still do!).

When I was about 3-4 I asked my mom for a glass of water.

She screamed at me and told me she was SICK of me PESTERING her for water all

the time.

So I asked her for Agua (learned it from Sesame Street).

My mom thought that was just SO hilarious. :/

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Fri, September 9, 2011 11:06:47 AM

Subject: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

I agree, your parents were/are abusive. (in my best sarcastic tone) " Oh, Yes,

an adult physically attacking a two year old is just *hilarious*. What a card! "

-Annie

> > >

> > > I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to contemplate

> > it for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more cumbersome

> > for me to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder if

> > it is worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it

> > will help me and someone else as well, if I do share.

> > >

> > > I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I

> > suspect it was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom was

> > off, was because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in

> > kindergarten. I can only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past

> > few years (I'm 53), that I have stopped thinking it was just my imagination

> > that I experienced trauma. I accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I

> > made it through the rest of my childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because of

> > our separation that I have a body memory of my own. If my mom could have,

> > she would have denied that her " illness " ever occurred, but I think the

> > doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest. I still can feel the

> > heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief.... in the weeks when

> > she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and zoned out I felt

> > in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home, while my dad was

> > at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate human being.

> > Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural response even

> > if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until nada

> > really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

> > >

> > > Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada precociously,

> > I am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was

> > off, was because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came to

> > stay with us for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There are

> > great pictures of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet and

> > light. My aunt laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like

> > hell, to get away from the influence of nada's presence. She referred later

> > to my mom as the Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about Oz.

> > Interesting coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a special

> > bond.

> > >

> > > I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

> > scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure my

> > aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share where

> > the bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own little-girl

> > thoughts about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself,

> > without this older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my mom's

> > oddness, but I know that even her actions would have planted a seed of

> > awareness in me. It also made me want to be independent just like I saw my

> > aunt being...

> > >

> > > I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left

> > knowing something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so

> > that my dad would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that I

> > would not know how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out as

> > a little girl. I would try to be so good, and then I would have to express

> > my child nature to be spontaneous and get into trouble.

> > >

> > > It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home, by

> > holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that if I

> > held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house, where

> > I could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that

> > when I would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my

> > faith in God. I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was

> > very disappointed, but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

> > >

> > > It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my nature.

> > For I am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my

> > mom, even as I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed boundaries,

> > and simply being honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To

> > protect myself and to have privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed me

> > for a long time. Lying did not make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder

> > what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I felt that I deserved to be abused

> > because I lied to her. What a horrible double bind!

> > >

> > > As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I

> > had just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my

> > own truth. And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

> > >

> > > I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly

> > for me just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification with

> > my nada, feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked

> > just like her. Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this visceral

> > feeling like I too must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply

> > refused to hide my kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not

> > work!

> > >

> > > ~

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

My mom was telling me a story about my stepdad.  I did grow up with my mom, as

she is my bio mom and I didn't know her until about 11 years ago.  My mom had

my older brother and my stepbrother and sister.  If my mom made something the

kids didn't like and they didn't eat it all off of their plates, my stepdad

would put more of the food they didn't like on their plates and tell them they

had to eat it all.  And if they didn't, he would yell at them for not eating

whatever it was.  My stepdad would leave the table when he was done eating, and

mom said she would eat everything on the kids plates so it looked like they ate

it. 

Janet

 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own

understanding.

 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Proverbs 3:5-8

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 10:29 AM

Subject: Re: Re: When was your 'This isn't normal' moment?

 

Ditto that! WTF??

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Girlscout Cowboy <

girlscout.cowboy@...> wrote:

> My parent have a story about being camping with family when my bro was 2 -

> I

> suspect nada was preggers with me. Anyway my brother asked for bread and

> jam. My dad made it for him. He didn't eat it. So my dad smushed it into

> his

> face.

>

> WTF????? It was my family's favorite FUNNY story. I'm like that's abuse.

>

> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 8:02 AM, awayfromborderland <

> awayfromborderland@...> wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Hi , I'm so glad you added to this post. I got a lot out of your

> > story. How poignant to picture you holding up your little hand for Jesus

> to

> > take you away. Wow. I'm so glad you had an aunt to model some sane

> behavior

> > for a while.

> >

> > When I was 4, I was being babysat by a sane adult who came over for a few

> > hours while nada and fada were out. I went to the cutlery drawer, (which

> was

> > readily accessible in a low drawer) took out the big knife used for

> cutting

> > bread and held it to my throat. I was trying to show her that I wasn't in

> a

> > safe place. She was very shocked and said, " Don't do that, " and she had

> me

> > hand her the knife. She didn't tell nada and fada and it's a good thing,

> > because they would have only turned on me and punished me for it.

> >

> > I also identified with your lying and the feelings of shame. I spent a

> > large part of my childhood being crippled with shame because I was being

> > told on a daily basis how horrible and ugly I was. At times, I could

> hardly

> > hold my head up I felt so bad about being me. If I was called upon to

> speak

> > in school, I blushed as red as a radish and could hardly get the answer

> out.

> > My teachers looked at me curiously. They just thought I was an odd kid, I

> > guess. They had no idea, and no curiosity, that I was being mental, ly

> and

> > physically tortured at home.

> >

> > And finally, yes, I got the face slapping too. Is there a BPD training

> > school where mothers go to learn this stuff?

> >

> > I'm glad you are finally free, . Bless you.

> > AFB

> >

> >

> >

> > >

> > > I am finally deciding to add my bit to this thread. I had to

> contemplate

> > it for a few days, especially since I get digests and it is more

> cumbersome

> > for me to reply. Of course, I am so delayed that there are times I wonder

> if

> > it is worth posting. Past the crest on the wave on this one, but maybe it

> > will help me and someone else as well, if I do share.

> > >

> > > I think I knew very early in my life that my nada was not normal. I

> > suspect it was by the time I was four. The biggest reason I knew my mom

> was

> > off, was because she had a breakdown in front of me before I was in

> > kindergarten. I can only barely remember it, but I it is only in the past

> > few years (I'm 53), that I have stopped thinking it was just my

> imagination

> > that I experienced trauma. I accept it now, and am frankly amazed that I

> > made it through the rest of my childhood as I did. Perhaps it is because

> of

> > our separation that I have a body memory of my own. If my mom could have,

> > she would have denied that her " illness " ever occurred, but I think the

> > doctors and my dad told her she had to be honest. I still can feel the

> > heaviness in my body, the listlessness, and the relief.... in the weeks

> when

> > she was away in hospital. I still remember how broken and zoned out I

> felt

> > in the weeks when I was being cared for outside our home, while my dad

> was

> > at work. It was like I was experiencing that I was a separate human

> being.

> > Of course, I probably missed my mom too, for that is a natural response

> even

> > if there is serious abuse. I don't think I experienced abuse until nada

> > really saw that I was a separate person, whom she could not control.

> > >

> > > Lest I give myself too much credit for figuring out my nada

> precociously,

> > I am realizing this past year, that another part of HOW I knew my mom was

> > off, was because right around that time I was four, an aunt of mine came

> to

> > stay with us for a few months. There are only 9 years between us. There

> are

> > great pictures of us having fun together. I always thought it was sweet

> and

> > light. My aunt laughs about how she used to ride away from our house like

> > hell, to get away from the influence of nada's presence. She referred

> later

> > to my mom as the Wicked Witch of the West.. long before I learned about

> Oz.

> > Interesting coincidence that. Needless to say, my aunt and I have a

> special

> > bond.

> > >

> > > I was allowed to be myself when this aunt was around, and the natural

> > scientist that is in every little child, was in me, too. I am quite sure

> my

> > aunt (who has a great sense of humor and is the kind that will share

> where

> > the bear sh-ts in the woods...) simply validated some of my own

> little-girl

> > thoughts about my mom, that I likely would not have admitted to myself,

> > without this older " role model. " My aunt was gentle and naive about my

> mom's

> > oddness, but I know that even her actions would have planted a seed of

> > awareness in me. It also made me want to be independent just like I saw

> my

> > aunt being...

> > >

> > > I believe that after my aunt went back to her own home, I was left

> > knowing something was odd.. and having to act as if it was really OK, so

> > that my dad would stay. It would create such tension, pretending... that

> I

> > would not know how I was really supposed to behave. That made me act out

> as

> > a little girl. I would try to be so good, and then I would have to

> express

> > my child nature to be spontaneous and get into trouble.

> > >

> > > It was before I turned eight that I tried to have Jesus take me home,

> by

> > holding my hand up at night. Somewhere I had learned, or imagined, that

> if I

> > held my hand up long enough, Jesus would take me from the crazy house,

> where

> > I could never seem to do anything right. I find it very interesting that

> > when I would wake in the morning, still in my bed, this did not deter my

> > faith in God. I just figured I hadn't held my hand up long enough. I was

> > very disappointed, but again, felt like I was to blame for my own fate!

> > >

> > > It seems like I have this part of me that felt compromised by my

> nature.

> > For I am fairly empathic and intuitive and I even felt compassion for my

> > mom, even as I also had to be who I was and have fun. I needed

> boundaries,

> > and simply being honest with my nada did not get me what I needed! To

> > protect myself and to have privacy, I frequently lied to her. That shamed

> me

> > for a long time. Lying did not make me happy. Instead, it made me wonder

> > what was wrong with me?!! As a kid I felt that I deserved to be abused

> > because I lied to her. What a horrible double bind!

> > >

> > > As an adult I had my ah-ha moment and forgave myself. I realized that I

> > had just done my best to create privacy for myself, where I could have my

> > own truth. And have some feeling of power and autonomy.

> > >

> > > I also think my " this isn't normal moments " (plural) happened regularly

> > for me just in being who I was. I had a strong sense of identification

> with

> > my nada, feeling like I was seen as an extension of her, because I looked

> > just like her. Sooo. In that twisted way of childhood, I had this

> visceral

> > feeling like I too must be a kook. And in my case, after awhile I simply

> > refused to hide my kookiness. It was just too much work! And it did not

> > work!

> > >

> > > ~

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

It's a really good question because it highlights that I'm in a strange place at

the moment hovering between denial and not - or rather haven't really got it (I

was told on Monday I have enmeshment/identity issues along with other stuff).

I'm sure I've had plenty of 'this isn't normal' moments but have buried them

leaving me with peculiar feelings.

I do however wonder about my first memory of my mother around the age of 3 or 4

and it's interesting to me. I was considered deaf by the doctors because I

hadn't developed speech properly and I was later sent to a special school for

intensive education until I 'grew out' of it. Anyway I was still in the US with

my parents and we were on an east coast beach. I remember staring out at the

beautiful sunshine sparkling off the water whilst my parents walked on. I could

hear my mother calling but I just wanted to be on my own and watch the waves a

little longer so held off rather than sticking by their sides. It was calm to be

alone. When I did trot off to join them I remember my mother having a tantrum

and giving me a distinctly cold shoulder - she wouldn't take my hand when I

tried to take hers etc. I remember clearly thinking that it wasn't right but

kept it to myself. A picture was taken only a few mins afterward this incident,

and as I was coerced into it because we were having a family day out even today,

decades later, it reminds me the same feelings of hostility when I come across

it.

>

>

>

>

> Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my nada

since

> July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a while

ago.)

> For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger outbursts

about

> the situation in general.

>

> I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and that

is

> when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

>

> Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games. My mom

> burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I don't

> even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

spiraled

> down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going to

make

> anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally 5

> minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that she

put

> a pizza in the oven for us.

>

> When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a hug...and

> said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like that. "

>

> Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the course

with

> nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye opener.

>

>

> So, what was your 'moment'???

>

>

[Guest guest]

I like your idea better: new trips to new countries with a good friend or SO to

create fresh, happy memories, instead of revisiting the countries where nada and

I went together.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > > There was lots and lots of awful behavior I could tell you about from

before the incident I'm about to describe, but I thought it was that nada had

been sexually abused by grandfada and that was the whole reason.

> > > >

> > > > Then, when I'm about 38, grandfada suffers from a cardiac arrhythmia and

falls out at the grocery, hitting his head on the pavement and spending several

weeks in the hospital. My grandmother was very frail after a bout with cancer

several years before that, so nada moved in for a bit to take care of

grandmother while grandfada was in the hospital.

> > > >

> > > > During this time, my brother, who was living at home, moved his

girlfriend in whom he was really becoming serious about, because she had no

place to live. I forget why she lost her place. Either she had lost her job or

it was some conflict with a roommate...can't remember. However it happened,

Brother and GF lived like slobs and wouldn't clean up. Nada likes her house

clean, and she couldn't be there to even keep up with the mess, much less nag

them to clean up. She'd go for short trips home and be horrified. ly, that

was the last time I was ever there, and I was horrified, too.

> > > >

> > > > But the way she handled this was most telling. Instead of confronting my

brother and his girlfriend about it, she complained all over the family. My

brother had just started as a sheriff's deputy with the county, and she'd go all

over town complaining about this to shopkeepers in the area and people she saw

casually in restaurants--whom she refers to as " friends, " since she has only one

or two normal friendships, and she's always on the outs with these people, too.

She complained and complained and complained to me, and complained and

complained and complained to Grandma. Meanwhile I'm getting emails like this

from my brother: " WTF! You should see the emails she's sending me at work! Why

is she doing this all over town? I'm trying to start a career in law enforcement

and this is looking really bad! "

> > > >

> > > > I totally sympathized with my brother. How many times had she done that

all over the family to me?

> > > >

> > > > I was working and working on new ways to handle this kind of stuff with

her. My husband, then my fiance, had just moved back from Michigan where he had

spent two years remodeling and selling his house. He is a really optimistic,

positive, healthy and well-adjusted person and I would try stuff out on him:

" Good grief, look what she did this time! What if I said or did this? " I have

The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner; I have all these books on dealing with the

Effed Up FOO. I read and read, studied and studied, rehearsed. Finally I put

them into practice when we went one Sunday to visit my grandfather in the

hospital and had dinner out with my grandmother and nada.

> > > >

> > > > She started her usual complaining at dinner. I calmly shared that she

needed to deal with the housework issue directly with my brother and his

girlfriend, and that the other issues she had with them (she felt slighted, for

instance, because GF didn't say hi to her when she came in the house) were

perhaps misunderstandings and needed to be talked out.

> > > >

> > > > Interestingly enough, when Grandma and my fiance were sitting right

there and heard every word, there was no problem. Nobody thought anything I said

was bad.

> > > >

> > > > However, when I called up the next week to check in and see how things

were going, nada started up again, and I repeated exactly the same thing. Fiance

was sitting in the other room and heard everything I said. He thought I did a

pretty good job, considering how nervous I was about trying any kind of new

communication with nada at all. I specifically reiterated that I did indeed

think the house was messy. I said it four times: " Nobody's arguing that. "

> > > >

> > > > The next week, a letter arrives. In it, nada is totally misrepresenting

everything I said. She says that I spent the entire conversation at her about

how she was wrong and the house was not messy. Then she says that she was so

upset she stayed up all night crying and my grandparents were up with her and

mad at me for saying such mean things and making her so upset.

> > > >

> > > > This was my first real clue and hard evidence that something was

seriously wrong. There was simply no way anybody could hear what I actually said

and come up with that understanding. Also, the fact that here were both my

grandparents, old, frail, and my grandfather 88 years old and convalescing after

something like a month in the hospital, and this was what she did, together with

how she acted at the dinner with my relatives and what my grandmother had said

about her behavior all along, confirmed for me finally that I was NOT imagining

anything all these years. She really, honestly had a big deficit in her

perceptions of reality and here was the proof. I had never seen SUCH a big

one-eighty before between what had actually happened and what she said had

happened.

> > > >

> > > > After that I was able to go back and relate descriptions of BP behavior

in the books I was reading to what I was actually seeing.

> > > >

> > > > Sorry if this is too long.

> > > >

> > > > --.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

First, I wanted to say this story made my stomach turn. How awful to do that to

a child. Second, that kind of treatment - when meted out on an ongoing basis -

would SURELY constitute torture under UK law if perpetrated by an adult against

another adult or a non-family member child. Why the XXXX is it deemed acceptable

when committed against your own child! It really is madness.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Recently I have been doing a lot of thinking. I have been NC with my

nada

> > > since

> > > > July (it all went down over a horse, long story, I posted about it a

> > > while ago.)

> > > > For the most part I have been doing well, with occasional anger

outbursts

> > > about

> > > > the situation in general.

> > > >

> > > > I was thinking back about how things were when I was in High School, and

> > > that is

> > > > when I had my 'This isn't normal' revelation.

> > > >

> > > > Freshman year my best friend was over and we were playing video games.

My

> > > mom

> > > > burst into the room and started yelling at me over something stupid, I

> > > don't

> > > > even remember what it was. Maybe cleaning? As is typical for her, it

> > > spiraled

> > > > down into what a useless, selfish person I was and how I was never going

> > > to make

> > > > anything out of my life, etc. All this in front of my friend. Literally

5

> > >

> > > > minutes later she came back in the room, all cheerful, and told us that

> > > she put

> > > > a pizza in the oven for us.

> > > >

> > > > When she closed the door my best friend started crying and gave me a

> > > hug...and

> > > > said " You know this isn't normal, right? My mom would never act like

> > > that. "

> > > >

> > > > Honestly I didn't think any of it was a big deal, it was par for the

> > > course with

> > > > nada, but seeing my best friend get upset over it was a very big eye

> > > opener.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > So, what was your 'moment'???

> > > >

> > > >