Re: one year and counting - new issue - gender roles

September 6, 2011

Girlscout, yes, there are others out here with gender issues, including me. That

whole lesbian thing? Yes, my family joked the whole time I was growing up that I

was a lesbian. The same confusion about being able to do so much boy stuff but

then not other boy stuff that made no sense, like lighting a camp fire or

driving nada's truck. She refused to let me park it for her and had one of my

male friends do it. It made me so angry and pissed me off so much that she did

that. I think she was flirting with him though. (And we were 17 and 18.)

She tried to make me into a girly girl but criticized me for having a curvy

female shape (she was flat chested), my dad was going through the normal " I'm a

man and don't know how to deal with my daughter's puberty " thing, but nada made

it worse by 1) not running the interference I imagine a good mother would run to

help her husband and daughter go through that awkward stage 2) making fun of my

puberty 3)not ever buying me my own underthings (yes I had to wear hers) and 4)

displaying outright jealousy of my shape by mocking me, shaming me, saying mean

things, etc.

At the same time, she did as much as she could to keep me from understanding any

of those things that women know. THere's just so much, but yes, nada f'd with my

head and my gender identity.

Fortunately, I have gotten over that on my own. I may need to examine it at a

later date with a T, but honestly, I'm comfortable with who I am and if I'm not

into something that other women are into, I just say " that's not my deal, see

you later " .

>

> I saw my T this morning. It was our one year anniversary. i brought her

> roses. She said she never gets flowers I kinda figured that, because

> people around here don't give flowers all that often. Anyway. . . she said

> that I've gone further with my therapy in a year than a lot of people go in

> a lifetime. She said that I wanted it, I worked for it, I fought for it. . .

> etc etc etc. I'm proud, but at the same time, I get that a lot. I'm an elbow

> grease kinda girl.

>

> Today we broached a different topic. This is hard to explain, but because my

> nada defeminized me, and called me a slut, and was terrified that i might be

> a sexual person, and competed with me for male attention and hated any and

> every pretty woman etc etc and my dad on the other hand rewarded me for

> masculine behavior, and raised me to be a little cowgirl and gave me

> confusing mixed messages - for instance, I was supposed to be tough like a

> boy, but I couldn't have a pocket knife and my brother could, and an extreme

> double standard about my brother's boundaries (for example, he had 2

> different girlfriends who lived with us and slept in his bedroom for up to 6

> months at a time before he finished high school, like age 16 and 17). On the

> other hand, i was not allowed to even dance with boys . . . and they both

> frequently told me not to grow up to be a lesbian. . . anyway, all that

> stuff has left me totally confused about - - - well not about my gender

> identity - - - - I'm a girly girl, I date men, I drive a 4wd pick-up, I

> make art out of bullet casings etc etc - - but yeah, in a way, I am VERY

> confused about my gender identity. . .

>

> Anyway, we talked today about my dad's extremely close relationship with his

> best friend (a man). Neither man got along with their wife, so they sort of

> teamed up and raised their kids together, stayed married to women, but

> bonded to each other. My dad's best friend helped me learn to drive. drove

> me to piano lessons, held my hand, put his arm around me when I was tired or

> sad, tossed me across rivers and damns on hikes, sang duets with me to

> Patsy Cline songs etc. When he was late for my wedding (I'm now divorced) we

> all waited for him, as if he was the mother of the bride. Probably the most

> potent memory - when my grandfather died, and my dad's best friend walked

> into the funeral, I jumped up and ran to him. My dad's cousin thought I was

> running to him and grabbed me - I was like - what the hell, and pretended I

> wanted to hug him to be polite, but as soon as I could I broke away and

> jumped into my other daddy's arms. And in a lot of ways he was my other

> daddy or my mom type figure. . . . anyway, when I got divorced at age 28 (my

> dad and his best friend lived about 4 houses apart from the time I was 6

> weeks old), my dad's best friend broke the rules and filed for divorce right

> around the same time and moved on with his life. . . my dad was left behind

> by both of us.

>

> So my T and I discussed the gender/sexuality bending of their relationship.

> They introduced each other as their " pardner, " they owned property together,

> they shared groceries. If our oven broke, we went to their house and used

> theirs, we opened each other's fridges and got stuff out. We cooked in each

> other's kitchens and worked in each others yards. Other daddy's sons mowed

> my grandmother's yard. They went and visited my grandma, and I spent every

> Halloween with their grandma. I think my " dads " even had a joint bank

> account. When my little brother died -guess where I went when my dad was

> with my mom in the hospital - yep, to my dad's best friend's house and I

> think I was there for 72 hours straight. I wasn't even at my grandma's. I

> fell asleep to the sounds of their voices almost every night of the first 18

> years of my life, either near a campfire, or with them debriefing about

> their days (and kids - I'm serious, they talked about our grades, tests,

> social issues, interests, health problems, as though they were co-parenting)

> etc et over the phone before bed.

>

> Anyway, my T wonders how far and deep their relationship went. I don't know

> if I will ever know. But sometimes when I miss a " girl " cue or run screaming

> away from the dumb games at a baby shower, or have to explain " I can't do

> that because it would hurt my cowboy dignity, " I just say " You know, I was

> raised by two men. Both cowboys. I know how to shoot a rifle and I could

> braid rawhide, I could find you some alfalfa or a pack saddle, but I was

> absent the day they went over girl stuff. "

>

> So my T and I are entering into that really weird part of my past. Its taken

> us a while to get there. I don't know if my dad and his best friend were

> gay/bisexual or not. The movie Brokeback Mountain sure made a hell of a lot

> of sense to me though - and I loved both the main characters - if you

> haven't seen it and are interested- it is pretty dang close to my personal

> history, but I'm the kid of the star crossed cowboy lovers. I feel bad for

> them for allowing their culture to hold them back - but then that's their

> choice. My dad's best friend did move on from his bad marriage, entered a

> new relationship . . . . My dad never did.

>

> And at the same time I feel lucky. Because I did have a nada - but I also

> had 2 pretty good parents. If you count my other dad, I think my two dad's

> did an ok job. I'm sad that they didn't ditch their wives, fight for custody

> and raise their kids together as a couple. There would have been 7 siblings

> - ha ha - a huge family for two men to manage. But the reality is that they

> did just that while keeping 2 houses and staying married to 2 women, one of

> whom had issues and the other a raging maniacal BPD witch.

>

> Anyone out there have sort of a gender role confusion going on? Someone

> please tell me that this is normal for a KO.

>

September 6, 2011

Yeah my nada did not participate in my puberty issues. Like a good

girlscout, I looked into it a bit, figured it out, planned for it, and had

no questions. My dad helped me as much as he could with those things. . .

But of course I didn't really run to him. I don't get it - why would they

do that? I mean what's the big deal? They experienced it and not that long

ago. It happens to everyone. Why be so uptight? My pals and I joke about

boobs and stuff like that all the time.

One time, i think I was in college, I was like a 34 C in the bra department.

My nada gave me a big talk about how she GAVE me my big boobs and I should

be grateful to her. Umm, hello nada, I do not now nor have I ever had

noticibly big boobs. I'm pretty dang average in that dept. My best friend is

a 34 double D, and that is a bra size worth noticing. I'm still scratching

my head over that conversation. My T says if my nada saw anything about me

that she liked, she would try to claim it. Ich, she wants credit for my c

cups. UGH!!!!!!! Is that TMI? HA HA

Yeah, I'm troubled by it. I hope to one day understand it all.

> **

>

> Girlscout, yes, there are others out here with gender issues, including me.

> That whole lesbian thing? Yes, my family joked the whole time I was growing

> up that I was a lesbian. The same confusion about being able to do so much

> boy stuff but then not other boy stuff that made no sense, like lighting a

> camp fire or driving nada's truck. She refused to let me park it for her and

> had one of my male friends do it. It made me so angry and pissed me off so

> much that she did that. I think she was flirting with him though. (And we

> were 17 and 18.)

>

> She tried to make me into a girly girl but criticized me for having a curvy

> female shape (she was flat chested), my dad was going through the normal

> " I'm a man and don't know how to deal with my daughter's puberty " thing, but

> nada made it worse by 1) not running the interference I imagine a good

> mother would run to help her husband and daughter go through that awkward

> stage 2) making fun of my puberty 3)not ever buying me my own underthings

> (yes I had to wear hers) and 4) displaying outright jealousy of my shape by

> mocking me, shaming me, saying mean things, etc.

>

> At the same time, she did as much as she could to keep me from

> understanding any of those things that women know. THere's just so much, but

> yes, nada f'd with my head and my gender identity.

>

> Fortunately, I have gotten over that on my own. I may need to examine it at

> a later date with a T, but honestly, I'm comfortable with who I am and if

> I'm not into something that other women are into, I just say " that's not my

> deal, see you later " .

>

> >

> > I saw my T this morning. It was our one year anniversary. i brought her

> > roses. She said she never gets flowers I kinda figured that, because

> > people around here don't give flowers all that often. Anyway. . . she

> said

> > that I've gone further with my therapy in a year than a lot of people go

> in

> > a lifetime. She said that I wanted it, I worked for it, I fought for it.

> . .

> > etc etc etc. I'm proud, but at the same time, I get that a lot. I'm an

> elbow

> > grease kinda girl.

> >

> > Today we broached a different topic. This is hard to explain, but because

> my

> > nada defeminized me, and called me a slut, and was terrified that i might

> be

> > a sexual person, and competed with me for male attention and hated any

> and

> > every pretty woman etc etc and my dad on the other hand rewarded me for

> > masculine behavior, and raised me to be a little cowgirl and gave me

> > confusing mixed messages - for instance, I was supposed to be tough like

> a

> > boy, but I couldn't have a pocket knife and my brother could, and an

> extreme

> > double standard about my brother's boundaries (for example, he had 2

> > different girlfriends who lived with us and slept in his bedroom for up

> to 6

> > months at a time before he finished high school, like age 16 and 17). On

> the

> > other hand, i was not allowed to even dance with boys . . . and they both

> > frequently told me not to grow up to be a lesbian. . . anyway, all that

> > stuff has left me totally confused about - - - well not about my gender

> > identity - - - - I'm a girly girl, I date men, I drive a 4wd pick-up, I

> > make art out of bullet casings etc etc - - but yeah, in a way, I am VERY

> > confused about my gender identity. . .

> >

> > Anyway, we talked today about my dad's extremely close relationship with

> his

> > best friend (a man). Neither man got along with their wife, so they sort

> of

> > teamed up and raised their kids together, stayed married to women, but

> > bonded to each other. My dad's best friend helped me learn to drive.

> drove

> > me to piano lessons, held my hand, put his arm around me when I was tired

> or

> > sad, tossed me across rivers and damns on hikes, sang duets with me to

> > Patsy Cline songs etc. When he was late for my wedding (I'm now divorced)

> we

> > all waited for him, as if he was the mother of the bride. Probably the

> most

> > potent memory - when my grandfather died, and my dad's best friend walked

> > into the funeral, I jumped up and ran to him. My dad's cousin thought I

> was

> > running to him and grabbed me - I was like - what the hell, and pretended

> I

> > wanted to hug him to be polite, but as soon as I could I broke away and

> > jumped into my other daddy's arms. And in a lot of ways he was my other

> > daddy or my mom type figure. . . . anyway, when I got divorced at age 28

> (my

> > dad and his best friend lived about 4 houses apart from the time I was 6

> > weeks old), my dad's best friend broke the rules and filed for divorce

> right

> > around the same time and moved on with his life. . . my dad was left

> behind

> > by both of us.

> >

> > So my T and I discussed the gender/sexuality bending of their

> relationship.

> > They introduced each other as their " pardner, " they owned property

> together,

> > they shared groceries. If our oven broke, we went to their house and used

> > theirs, we opened each other's fridges and got stuff out. We cooked in

> each

> > other's kitchens and worked in each others yards. Other daddy's sons

> mowed

> > my grandmother's yard. They went and visited my grandma, and I spent

> every

> > Halloween with their grandma. I think my " dads " even had a joint bank

> > account. When my little brother died -guess where I went when my dad was

> > with my mom in the hospital - yep, to my dad's best friend's house and I

> > think I was there for 72 hours straight. I wasn't even at my grandma's. I

> > fell asleep to the sounds of their voices almost every night of the first

> 18

> > years of my life, either near a campfire, or with them debriefing about

> > their days (and kids - I'm serious, they talked about our grades, tests,

> > social issues, interests, health problems, as though they were

> co-parenting)

> > etc et over the phone before bed.

> >

> > Anyway, my T wonders how far and deep their relationship went. I don't

> know

> > if I will ever know. But sometimes when I miss a " girl " cue or run

> screaming

> > away from the dumb games at a baby shower, or have to explain " I can't do

> > that because it would hurt my cowboy dignity, " I just say " You know, I

> was

> > raised by two men. Both cowboys. I know how to shoot a rifle and I could

> > braid rawhide, I could find you some alfalfa or a pack saddle, but I was

> > absent the day they went over girl stuff. "

> >

> > So my T and I are entering into that really weird part of my past. Its

> taken

> > us a while to get there. I don't know if my dad and his best friend were

> > gay/bisexual or not. The movie Brokeback Mountain sure made a hell of a

> lot

> > of sense to me though - and I loved both the main characters - if you

> > haven't seen it and are interested- it is pretty dang close to my

> personal

> > history, but I'm the kid of the star crossed cowboy lovers. I feel bad

> for

> > them for allowing their culture to hold them back - but then that's their

> > choice. My dad's best friend did move on from his bad marriage, entered a

> > new relationship . . . . My dad never did.

> >

> > And at the same time I feel lucky. Because I did have a nada - but I also

> > had 2 pretty good parents. If you count my other dad, I think my two

> dad's

> > did an ok job. I'm sad that they didn't ditch their wives, fight for

> custody

> > and raise their kids together as a couple. There would have been 7

> siblings

> > - ha ha - a huge family for two men to manage. But the reality is that

> they

> > did just that while keeping 2 houses and staying married to 2 women, one

> of

> > whom had issues and the other a raging maniacal BPD witch.

> >

> > Anyone out there have sort of a gender role confusion going on? Someone

> > please tell me that this is normal for a KO.

> >

September 6, 2011

GS - As you say, you can't really know if there was something else going on (not

that there would have been anything wrong with that...). So let's assume that

your two dads were just what they appeared to be - best friends, both involved

in raising their kids with very little help from their wives. If they'd been

brothers, this would have been less noticeable. And I think there's been a lot

written about the bonds of men in combat (hey, I've raised a kid. It's like

combat sometimes.) Maybe they were/are just two straight guys with a very

strong brotherhood/friendship bond. It worked for them, it worked for you,

presumably it worked for the other kids. Maybe this was one of those " family of

choice " situations, where we can just be grateful for sane people in our lives.

Based on what you've told us before about your region/religion/cultural

upbringing, it must have been tough for both of those guys to raise kids in such

a tradition-bound environment. No wonder they depended on each other.

As to your reaction to baby shower games and other uber-girly stuff - you're not

alone. I was raised by a very hetero set of parents (albeit one was a Nada) -

and I think baby shower games are idiotic. I own a couple of pocket knives (my

parents wouldn't let me have one, either), and I know how to do minor

maintenance on my car. That's not a statement about gender - that's just basic

survival skills and tools. Don't worry about it - you know who you are and who

you're attracted to. Being able to run a chainsaw, or a sewing machine, does

not define you.