Question about OAT

[Guest guest]

Hello,Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean? Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)Glycolate 254 (ref <180) Philippe Auguste lab - Paris Thanks!Noura

[Guest guest]

From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expert like (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalates in his cells.  We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic and glycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means that he's making oxalates in his cells.  Does your lab have an interpretation section at the end of the lab report?  I found that very helpful to help me to start reading about what's going on with my daughter.

I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cells because of low B6 and magnesium.  So we're doing a good b-complex with P5P plus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin.  We've done two OATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's.  Several metabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin, niacin, biotin.  So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where I want our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin, and biotin.  Seems to be working well here.

 

Hello,Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?

  Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)

Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)Glycolate  254 (ref <180)

 Philippe Auguste lab - Paris 

Thanks!Noura 

[Guest guest]

Any idea about what the elevated Quino/kynu ratio means (13 folds of the highest normal value)?The lab report didn't contain enterpretation for this.From what you're saying, I guess that only 25 mg of P5P will not do the trick to reduce oxalates production(that's what our prescribed Super Nu Thera w/P5P contains, son is 7 yo, 50 pounds ). Thanks for your help and reply,Noura Re: Question about OAT Posted by: " Alberta " gnomederwear@... gnomederwear Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am (PST) From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expertlike (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalatesin his cells. We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic andglycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means thathe's making oxalates in his cells. Does your lab have an interpretationsection at the end of the lab report? I found that very helpful to help meto start reading about what's going on with my daughter.I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cellsbecause of low B6 and magnesium. So we're doing a good b-complex with P5Pplus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin. We've done twoOATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's. Severalmetabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin,niacin, biotin. So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where Iwant our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin,and biotin. Seems to be working well here.> **>>> Hello,****>> Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?****>> ** **>> ** **>> Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)****>> Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)****>> Glycolate 254 (ref <180)****>> ** **>> Philippe Auguste lab - Paris****>>Thanks!****>> Noura

[Guest guest]

Hi Noura,You may want to look into the vitamin K protocol. This has helped us reduce oxolates for both of my kids.best,megan To: mb12valtrex Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:16 AM Subject: Re: Question

about OAT

Any idea about what the elevated Quino/kynu ratio means (13 folds of the highest normal value)?The lab report didn't contain enterpretation for this.From what you're saying, I guess that only 25 mg of P5P will not do the trick to reduce oxalates production(that's what our prescribed Super Nu Thera w/P5P contains, son is 7 yo, 50 pounds ). Thanks for your help and reply,Noura Re: Question about OAT Posted by: "Alberta" gnomederwear@... gnomederwear Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am (PST) From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expertlike (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalatesin his cells. We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic andglycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means thathe's making oxalates in his cells. Does your lab have an interpretationsection at the

end of the lab report? I found that very helpful to help meto start reading about what's going on with my daughter.I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cellsbecause of low B6 and magnesium. So we're doing a good b-complex with P5Pplus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin. We've done twoOATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's. Severalmetabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin,niacin, biotin. So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where Iwant our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin,and biotin. Seems to be working well here.> **>>> Hello,****>> Can

someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?****>> ** **>> ** **>> Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)****>> Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)****>> Glycolate 254 (ref <180)****>> ** **>> Philippe Auguste lab - Paris****>>Thanks!****>> Noura

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure about the quino/kynu ratio.  There's got to be a test interpretation online somewhere.  We were initially on 25 mg P5P and we needed a lot more for my daughter, who was making oxalates.  I don't know enough to say how much your son should be taking with his numbers, but I know my daughter (weight: 37 lbs., age: 4) is taking 66 mg P5P and 200 mg B6 (because P5P and B6 are metabolized on different pathways), and 350 mg magnesium (I'm still trying to find the happy medium for magnesium to balance the b6 and the biotin we're taking). 

 

 Any idea about what the elevated Quino/kynu ratio means (13 folds of the highest normal value)?

The lab report didn't contain enterpretation for this.From what you're saying, I guess that only 25 mg of P5P will not do the trick to reduce oxalates production(that's what our prescribed Super Nu Thera w/P5P contains, son is 7 yo, 50 pounds ).

 Thanks for your help and reply,

Noura  

Re: Question about OAT

Posted by: " Alberta " gnomederwear@...   gnomederwear

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am (PST) From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expert

like (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalatesin his cells. We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic andglycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means that

he's making oxalates in his cells. Does your lab have an interpretationsection at the end of the lab report? I found that very helpful to help meto start reading about what's going on with my daughter.

I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cellsbecause of low B6 and magnesium. So we're doing a good b-complex with P5Pplus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin. We've done two

OATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's. Severalmetabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin,niacin, biotin. So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where I

want our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin,and biotin. Seems to be working well here.

> **>>> Hello,****>> Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?****>> ** **>> ** **>> Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)****

>> Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)****>> Glycolate 254 (ref <180)****>> ** **>> Philippe Auguste lab - Paris****>>Thanks!****>> Noura

[Guest guest]

After your reply, I read about the vitamin K protocol. Don't you think that reducing oxalate levels in your children was only due to the Oxalatae consuming probiotic, and the high dose of magnesium? Meaning: you don’t have to do ALL the vitK protocol in order to get the oxalates down? Thanks,Noura Re: Question about OAT Posted by: " " meganscott624@... meganscott624 Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 am (PST) Hi Noura,You may want to look into the vitamin K protocol. This has helped us reduce oxolates for both of my kids.best,megan Re: Question about OAT Posted by: " Alberta " gnomederwear@... gnomederwear Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am (PST) From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expertlike (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalatesin his cells. We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic andglycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means thathe's making oxalates in his cells. Does your lab have an interpretationsection at the end of the lab report? I found that very helpful to help meto start reading about what's going on with my daughter.I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cellsbecause of low B6 and magnesium. So we're doing a good b-complex with P5Pplus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin. We've done twoOATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's. Severalmetabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin,niacin, biotin. So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where Iwant our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin,and biotin. Seems to be working well here.> **>>> Hello,****>> Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?****>> ** **>> ** **>> Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)****>> Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)****>> Glycolate 254 (ref <180)****>> ** **>> Philippe Auguste lab - Paris****>>Thanks!****>> Noura

[Guest guest]

Yes, we are only doing vitamin K and not much of the rest at the moment. And VSL#3 is meant to help with oxolates. My daughter hasnt been taking magnesium and her levels came down with the K and possibly the VSL#3 (not sure she was taking this when i noticed her levels coming down but definitely she had been on the K). To: mb12valtrex Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Question about OAT

After your reply, I read about the vitamin K protocol. Don't you think that reducing oxalate levels in your children was only due to the Oxalatae consuming probiotic, and the high dose of magnesium? Meaning: you don’t have to do ALL the vitK protocol in order to get the oxalates down? Thanks,Noura

Re: Question about OAT Posted by: " " meganscott624@... meganscott624 Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:53 am (PST) Hi Noura,You may want to look into the vitamin K protocol. This has helped us reduce oxolates for both of my kids.best,megan Re: Question about OAT Posted by: "Alberta" gnomederwear@... gnomederwear Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:17 am (PST) From what's been happening with my daughter, although I'm not an OAT expertlike (Owens) and some others are, I'd say that he's making oxalatesin his cells. We did our OAT through Great Plains but our oxalic andglycolic markers were elevated and, from what I understand, this means

thathe's making oxalates in his cells. Does your lab have an interpretationsection at the end of the lab report? I found that very helpful to help meto start reading about what's going on with my daughter.I learned from that oxalates were being made in my daughter's cellsbecause of low B6 and magnesium. So we're doing a good b-complex with P5Pplus more B6 ontop of it, magnesium and lots of biotin. We've done twoOATS so far and it seems that my daughter needs all the B's. Severalmetabolic pathways aren't working quite right because of low riboflavin,niacin, biotin. So I just do the B complex to the maximum point where Iwant our P5P to be at and then add in B6, and I top up riboflavin, niacin,and biotin. Seems to be working well here.> **>>> Hello,****>> Can someone help me understand what my 7 y.o son's OAT results mean?****>> ** **>> ** **>> Quino/Kynu ratio is 174 Way way higher than normal :(Ref range 4-14)****>> Oxalate 169 (ref 30-90)****>> Glycolate 254 (ref <180)****>> ** **>> Philippe Auguste lab - Paris****>>Thanks!****>> Noura

[Guest guest]

,

Vitamin K has effects on calcium, but not on oxalate. When oxalate is bound to

calcium, it is actually so much safer, especially to neurons. This was studied

in France by the Gamelins in several studies.

What might have made the oxalate look like it came down when it might not have?

The important thing to notice on an organic test is whether, when it looks like

oxalate came down, was that true just of oxalate, or was it true about

everything on the test? The creatinine can shift upwards, and that can lower

everything equally, proportionately.

Can you tell when that has happened?

When oxalate elevates in the body, it causes the kidneys to secrete creatinine,

and suddenly, all the things on that test that were high before and that your

doctor would consider in need of treatment, artificially will sneak down below

the reference range and look like they might be better.

This happens not because the analytes actually got lower. It is because the

creatinine got higher, and that changed the ratios that are reported on the

test. All the numbers you see are ratioed to creatinine.

So, this can even make oxalate and glycolic acid and glyceric acid, the markers

of oxalate issues, go down, and it can even lower pyroglutamate, the marker of

glutathione deficiency. All these can look like they have moved low on an

organic acid test, when they actually got higher, and you cannot tell by looking

at the test uncorrected.

I learned about this problem five years ago when I collected and then analyzed

224 OATs and standardized a way to compute the dilution in each test. The factor

I calculate from the test numbers themselves uses a standardized method and

allows us to get rid of the creatinine correction but still have a way to adjust

for dilution by centering everything around the median. This works so much

better than the creatinine correction and shows up things that make sense.

Creatinine is supposed to be stable and was thought to never be secreted by the

kidney. Doctors thought this decades ago studying healthy people, but since

then, the creatinine transporters have been discovered, so more modern science

showed that the assumption its levels were stable was wrong.

Creatinine moves around a lot and it is actively secreted some of the time. Its

changes in elevation can lead to overtreatment and undertreatment and may

sometimes lead to the wrong treatment because of not understanding how something

was affecting creatinine.

To learn more about this effect when it was studied in a controlled study, read

the paper below that showed B6 deficiency caused high oxalate in rats, and that

raised urinary secretion of creatinine four fold.

Just to show you how this works, the other day, a mother sent me an OAT and

urine amino acid test that had been done on her son from the same urine sample.

You could look at the amino acid test and it was easy to tell everything was

shifted very far low. Practically nothing was over the mean and most were far

below the mean. That means the creatinine was off.

I did the calculation on the organic acid test and found that shifts in

creatinine had overcorrected his OAT and his amino acid test by three-fold. By

using that factor I computed to adjust the amino acid test, very consistent and

treatable issues showed up on that test that had been invisible to his doctors

before.

These observations on the amino acid test were consistent with other things that

were also obvious from the organic acid test itself after the adjustment.

Anyway, I've analyzed about 445 of these tests now, and can make comparisons

easily.

, if you or anyone else has done a series of OATs, and you would like to

see how these urine concentration corrections change what you can see (or saw)

in the test, and how that might change the interpretation your doctor might have

put on the OAT, please contact me offlist. I'd be very glad to talk to you and

your doctor about what changes show up.

I presented some of the background for this at AutismOne last year, showing how

the corrections led to very different conclusions about what changed in a young

girl who had ten OATs, but they shifted dramatically worse after the fifth OAT

and then stayed bad for the next five OATs.

Her doctors and nutritionists didn't see these shifts, because they didn't have

any way to tell that the creatinine had shifted.

Owens

Head of the Autism Oxalate Project at ARI

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/biomedres/27/3/93/_pdf

Biomed Res. 2006 Jun;27(3):93-8.

Effect of vitamin B6 deficiency on glyoxylate metabolism in rats with or without

glyoxylate overload.

Nishijima S, Sugaya K, Hokama S, Oshiro Y, Uchida A, Morozumi M, Ogawa Y.

Source

Division of Urology, Department of Organ-oriented Medicine, Faculty of Medicine,

University of the Ryukyus, Okinawa, Japan. k998739@...

Abstract

We examined the effect of vitamin B6 deficiency on glyoxylate metabolism and

hepatic alanine: glyoxylate aminotransferase (AGT) activity in rats with normal

or high glyoxylate intake. Male rats were divided into four groups: a control

group, a vitamin B6-free diet group, a glyoxylate water group, and a vitamin

B6-free diet + glyoxylate water group. Each group was given special diet

(control or vitamin B6-deficient diet) and drinking water (plain or 0.5%

glyoxylate water) for 4 weeks, after which biochemical parameters and hepatic

AGT mRNA level were measured. Compared with control rats, the urinary

oxalate/creatinine ratio was higher in each of the other 3 groups. The urinary

glycolate/creatinine ratio was also higher in the vitamin B6-free diet group and

the vitamin B6-free diet + glyoxylate water group than the control group, while

the urinary glycine/creatinine and citrate/creatinine ratio was lower in both

groups. The hepatic AGT mRNA level was reduced in the vitamin B6-free diet

group, but was increased in the glyoxylate water group than the control group.

These results suggest that vitamin B6 is necessary for glyoxylate metabolism as

a coenzyme of AGT. Especially in the presence of a high glyoxylate intake,

vitamin B6 deficiency leads to severe hyperoxaluria and hypocituria.

PMID:

16847354

--- meganscott624@... wrote:

To: " mb12valtrex " <mb12valtrex >

Subject: Re: Re: Question about OAT

Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:12:22 -0800 (PST)

Yes, we are only doing vitamin K and not much of the rest at the moment. And

VSL#3 is meant to help with oxolates. My daughter hasnt been taking magnesium

and her levels came down with the K and possibly the VSL#3 (not sure she was

taking this when i noticed her levels coming down but definitely she had been on

the K).

[Guest guest]

Wow , Thank You!!

What an honor to have you post the info!!!

....this goes in my important posts spreadsheet )

Blessings to you,

Rita

>

>

> To: " mb12valtrex " <mb12valtrex >

> Subject: Re: Re: Question about OAT

> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:12:22 -0800 (PST)

>

> Yes, we are only doing vitamin K and not much of the rest at the moment. And

VSL#3 is meant to help with oxolates. My daughter hasnt been taking magnesium

and her levels came down with the K and possibly the VSL#3 (not sure she was

taking this when i noticed her levels coming down but definitely she had been on

the K).

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for this great information! I will definitely send you the OATs to review. Any insight into my kids issues would be so very helpful as so much of what we have tried seems to only makes things worse (some has helped however) and they both seem to react in very similar ways. The trial and error though has taken its toll on both of their guts that is for sure. I am positive my NT daughter's gut is more leaky and sensitive then it was when we started and i am just hoping that she doesn't regress in language, social and cognition as she is doing very well in these areas. My son's gut is finally getting back to where we started a year ago with just the diets, some zinc, a little probiotics and regular multivs. They both have such similar OAT results and porphyrins (I just

received my daughter's today and was so surprised at how high her porphyrin levels are given how well she is doing developmentally)....just hoping that she makes it through the next year or so without any regressions and my son starts improving more. I am definitely worried about what to give them and what not to give them now. I would be very grateful for any feedback and will revert shortly offlist.Many thanks and Happy Holidays! To: mb12valtrex

Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:28 AM Subject: Re: Question about OAT

,

Vitamin K has effects on calcium, but not on oxalate. When oxalate is bound to calcium, it is actually so much safer, especially to neurons. This was studied in France by the Gamelins in several studies.

What might have made the oxalate look like it came down when it might not have?

The important thing to notice on an organic test is whether, when it looks like oxalate came down, was that true just of oxalate, or was it true about everything on the test? The creatinine can shift upwards, and that can lower everything equally, proportionately.

Can you tell when that has happened?

When oxalate elevates in the body, it causes the kidneys to secrete creatinine, and suddenly, all the things on that test that were high before and that your doctor would consider in need of treatment, artificially will sneak down below the reference range and look like they might be better.

This happens not because the analytes actually got lower. It is because the creatinine got higher, and that changed the ratios that are reported on the test. All the numbers you see are ratioed to creatinine.

So, this can even make oxalate and glycolic acid and glyceric acid, the markers of oxalate issues, go down, and it can even lower pyroglutamate, the marker of glutathione deficiency. All these can look like they have moved low on an organic acid test, when they actually got higher, and you cannot tell by looking at the test uncorrected.

I learned about this problem five years ago when I collected and then analyzed 224 OATs and standardized a way to compute the dilution in each test. The factor I calculate from the test numbers themselves uses a standardized method and allows us to get rid of the creatinine correction but still have a way to adjust for dilution by centering everything around the median. This works so much better than the creatinine correction and shows up things that make sense.

Creatinine is supposed to be stable and was thought to never be secreted by the kidney. Doctors thought this decades ago studying healthy people, but since then, the creatinine transporters have been discovered, so more modern science showed that the assumption its levels were stable was wrong.

Creatinine moves around a lot and it is actively secreted some of the time. Its changes in elevation can lead to overtreatment and undertreatment and may sometimes lead to the wrong treatment because of not understanding how something was affecting creatinine.

To learn more about this effect when it was studied in a controlled study, read the paper below that showed B6 deficiency caused high oxalate in rats, and that raised urinary secretion of creatinine four fold.

Just to show you how this works, the other day, a mother sent me an OAT and urine amino acid test that had been done on her son from the same urine sample. You could look at the amino acid test and it was easy to tell everything was shifted very far low. Practically nothing was over the mean and most were far below the mean. That means the creatinine was off.

I did the calculation on the organic acid test and found that shifts in creatinine had overcorrected his OAT and his amino acid test by three-fold. By using that factor I computed to adjust the amino acid test, very consistent and treatable issues showed up on that test that had been invisible to his doctors before.

These observations on the amino acid test were consistent with other things that were also obvious from the organic acid test itself after the adjustment.

Anyway, I've analyzed about 445 of these tests now, and can make comparisons easily.

, if you or anyone else has done a series of OATs, and you would like to see how these urine concentration corrections change what you can see (or saw) in the test, and how that might change the interpretation your doctor might have put on the OAT, please contact me offlist. I'd be very glad to talk to you and your doctor about what changes show up.

I presented some of the background for this at AutismOne last year, showing how the corrections led to very different conclusions about what changed in a young girl who had ten OATs, but they shifted dramatically worse after the fifth OAT and then stayed bad for the next five OATs.

Her doctors and nutritionists didn't see these shifts, because they didn't have any way to tell that the creatinine had shifted.

Owens

Head of the Autism Oxalate Project at ARI

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/biomedres/27/3/93/_pdf

Biomed Res. 2006 Jun;27(3):93-8.

Effect of vitamin B6 deficiency on glyoxylate metabolism in rats with or without glyoxylate overload.

Nishijima S, Sugaya K, Hokama S, Oshiro Y, Uchida A, Morozumi M, Ogawa Y.

Source

Division of Urology, Department of Organ-oriented Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, University of the Ryukyus, Okinawa, Japan. k998739@...

Abstract

We examined the effect of vitamin B6 deficiency on glyoxylate metabolism and hepatic alanine: glyoxylate aminotransferase (AGT) activity in rats with normal or high glyoxylate intake. Male rats were divided into four groups: a control group, a vitamin B6-free diet group, a glyoxylate water group, and a vitamin B6-free diet + glyoxylate water group. Each group was given special diet (control or vitamin B6-deficient diet) and drinking water (plain or 0.5% glyoxylate water) for 4 weeks, after which biochemical parameters and hepatic AGT mRNA level were measured. Compared with control rats, the urinary oxalate/creatinine ratio was higher in each of the other 3 groups. The urinary glycolate/creatinine ratio was also higher in the vitamin B6-free diet group and the vitamin B6-free diet + glyoxylate water group than the control group, while the urinary glycine/creatinine and citrate/creatinine ratio was lower in both groups. The hepatic AGT mRNA level was

reduced in the vitamin B6-free diet group, but was increased in the glyoxylate water group than the control group. These results suggest that vitamin B6 is necessary for glyoxylate metabolism as a coenzyme of AGT. Especially in the presence of a high glyoxylate intake, vitamin B6 deficiency leads to severe hyperoxaluria and hypocituria.

PMID:

16847354

--- meganscott624@... wrote:

To: "mb12valtrex " <mb12valtrex >

Subject: Re: Re: Question about OAT

Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:12:22 -0800 (PST)

Yes, we are only doing vitamin K and not much of the rest at the moment. And VSL#3 is meant to help with oxolates. My daughter hasnt been taking magnesium and her levels came down with the K and possibly the VSL#3 (not sure she was taking this when i noticed her levels coming down but definitely she had been on the K).

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

So are you able to show others how to make the creatinine correction? Is there

a formula for it?

Thanks,

Cathy

>

>

> I learned about this problem five years ago when I collected and then

analyzed 224 OATs and standardized a way to compute the dilution in each test.

The factor I calculate from the test numbers themselves uses a standardized

method and allows us to get rid of the creatinine correction but still have a

way to adjust for dilution by centering everything around the median. This

works so much better than the creatinine correction and shows up things that

make sense.

>

>

> Owens

> Head of the Autism Oxalate Project at ARI

>