Re: Re: Toxins

[Guest guest]

I think a lot of us would LOVE to use up our stored fat. But given that

doing so releases the stored toxins, I think (and so do others) that it

should be done slowly. Doing something like a 30-day fast may be great for

the spirit, and fine for some people. For me, doing a strict low-calorie

(of any type) diet results in lots of migraines and some other symptoms,

which I think are due to stored stuff (maybe not toxins either, maybe stuff

like allergic histamines and hormones my own body produces) being suddenly

released. I handle that release a lot better if it is done more slowly.

As for getting rid of the fat ... there is some optimal amount of it, you

don't want to get rid of all of it (well, in this society some people may

THINK they want to). You will NEVER get rid of all the stored toxins! But

for females I think the ideal amount of body fat is something like 23%: if

you go too low you actually stop menstruating, which is the body's way of

saying you are TOO skinny. Actually in one study I read people who were

very fat and then got thin had many more emotional problems than they had

while fat. The researchers believed those people had, say, too much anxiety

chemicals in their system, but while they were fat the fat absorbed the

chemicals and protected them from the emotional effects. Body fat protects

the body from environmental toxins too. (as well as cushioning the organs

and protecting the body from temperature changes).

-- Heidi

At 02:42 AM 5/8/2002 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm not quite sure I understand. You don't want to use up your fat

>and thereby get rid of the stored toxins? You want those stored

>toxins to just stay there and accumulate rather than be eliminated

>once and for all? I don't understand. Please elaborate (and I mean

>that in the most respectful way possible).

>

> > I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do

>not fast

> > and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my

>veggies (tho

> > we grow most all our food ourselves).

>

>

Heidi Schuppenhauer

Trillium Custom Software Inc.

heidis@...

[Guest guest]

Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your fat,

not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You fast,

the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

chance to form a cancer?

If you were going to be eaten then by all means fast to get the meanies out

of your fat as somebody is going to be eating that bad fat. In all likelihood

you will not be consumed as supper so how does it hurt you to have this

stored in your fat where it is not doing you (or anybody else) any damage?

In addition, fasting. to me, seems much like eating things that don't taste

good, a punishment. You've been bad, you have to eat this bad tasting stuff

or you have to go without eating. I don't want to punish myself, I happen to

like myself.

Just my very unscientific thoughts.

Belinda

> I'm not quite sure I understand. You don't want to use up your fat

> and thereby get rid of the stored toxins? You want those stored

> toxins to just stay there and accumulate rather than be eliminated

> once and for all? I don't understand. Please elaborate (and I mean

> that in the most respectful way possible).

>

> > I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do

> not fast

> > and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my

> veggies (tho

> > we grow most all our food ourselves).

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/8/2002 9:46:55 AM Central Daylight Time,

skroyer@... writes:

> > Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your

> fat,

> > not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You

> fast,

> > the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

> > chance to form a cancer?

> > ...

> > Just my very unscientific thoughts.

>

> Actually, Belinda, that's not very unscientific at all. In fact, that's

> the

> position of the medical mainstream. I don't know which side is right, but

> on this particular point, I definitely think that the mainstream view seems

> much more common sense.

>

>

>

>

OH MY! I think this is the first time anyone has called me mainstream! <G>

Belinda

[Guest guest]

> Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your

fat,

> not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You

fast,

> the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

> chance to form a cancer?

> ...

> Just my very unscientific thoughts.

Actually, Belinda, that's not very unscientific at all. In fact, that's the

position of the medical mainstream. I don't know which side is right, but

on this particular point, I definitely think that the mainstream view seems

much more common sense.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/8/2002 3:06:32 PM Central Daylight Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> >Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your

> fat,

> >not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You

> fast,

> >the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

> >chance to form a cancer?

>

> IMHO, Belinda I don't think you need to worry about toxins much. You're a

> farmer and you sweat much more often than most people. That alone keeps a

> buildup from getting out of hand health wise. You're not exposing yourself

> either to pesticide and herbicide use like conventional farmers. Eating

> locally

> grown food has its immunities too.

> Wanita

>

>

Wanita,

I'm not worried at all. I don't feel the need to battle or clean anything but

thanks for the reassurance.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/8/2002 4:46:30 PM Central Daylight Time,

wanitawa@... writes:

> Noticed you mentioned that you're eating bitters plants like dandelion. Been

> doing the usual first spring greens foraging myself. Dandelion, mint and

> violets so far outside. In the greenhouse lamb's quarters and sheep sorrel.

> Just like the critters do.

> Wanita

We have sorrel a foot high and dandelion all over the place. I love wild

salads, so easy to take care of. <G>

Belinda

[Guest guest]

At 07:40 AM 5/8/02 -0400, Belinda wrote:

>Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your fat,

>not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You fast,

>the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

>chance to form a cancer?

IMHO, Belinda I don't think you need to worry about toxins much. You're a

farmer and you sweat much more often than most people. That alone keeps a

buildup from getting out of hand health wise. You're not exposing yourself

either to pesticide and herbicide use like conventional farmers. Eating

locally

grown food has its immunities too.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 07 May 2002 23:28:55 -0700 Heidi Schuppenhauer

<heidis@...> writes:

I think a lot of us would LOVE to use up our stored fat. But given that

doing so releases the stored toxins, I think (and so do others) that it

should be done slowly. Doing something like a 30-day fast may be great

for

the spirit, and fine for some people. For me, doing a strict low-calorie

(of any type) diet results in lots of migraines and some other symptoms,

which I think are due to stored stuff (maybe not toxins either, maybe

stuff

like allergic histamines and hormones my own body produces) being

suddenly

released. I handle that release a lot better if it is done more slowly.

*****Perhaps, but fasting and low cal dieting are not the same thing, and

your bodies response is very different. I see all kinds of strange things

happening when people are on a low calorie diet that do not happen while

fasting. Not to mention that a low cal diet is usually done with the idea

of weight loss in mind, not cleansing or detoxing.

As for getting rid of the fat ... there is some optimal amount of it, you

don't want to get rid of all of it (well, in this society some people may

THINK they want to). You will NEVER get rid of all the stored toxins! But

for females I think the ideal amount of body fat is something like 23%:

if

you go too low you actually stop menstruating, which is the body's way of

saying you are TOO skinny. Actually in one study I read people who were

very fat and then got thin had many more emotional problems than they had

while fat. The researchers believed those people had, say, too much

anxiety

chemicals in their system, but while they were fat the fat absorbed the

chemicals and protected them from the emotional effects. Body fat

protects

the body from environmental toxins too. (as well as cushioning the organs

and protecting the body from temperature changes).

******The benefits of fat are trumpeted widely by people like myself who

eat a diet consisting mostly of raw animal foods, and in my case, about

60% fat. Fasting is a temporary measure and not something designed to

remove all fat from the body.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

But, toxins are not just stored in your fat...they can also be elsewhere in your

body causing slow damage and problems. If one were to fast or use other measures

to detoxify, you would need to make sure you were taking measures to

Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your fat,

not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You fast,

the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

chance to form a cancer?

If you were going to be eaten then by all means fast to get the meanies out

of your fat as somebody is going to be eating that bad fat. In all likelihood

you will not be consumed as supper so how does it hurt you to have this

stored in your fat where it is not doing you (or anybody else) any damage?

In addition, fasting. to me, seems much like eating things that don't taste

good, a punishment. You've been bad, you have to eat this bad tasting stuff

or you have to go without eating. I don't want to punish myself, I happen to

like myself.

Just my very unscientific thoughts.

Belinda

> I'm not quite sure I understand. You don't want to use up your fat

> and thereby get rid of the stored toxins? You want those stored

> toxins to just stay there and accumulate rather than be eliminated

> once and for all? I don't understand. Please elaborate (and I mean

> that in the most respectful way possible).

>

> > I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do

> not fast

> > and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my

> veggies (tho

> > we grow most all our food ourselves).

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/8/2002 7:55:15 PM Central Daylight Time,

bianca3@... writes:

> I have found that the main problem with most folks when they attempt to

> fast is that they don't drink enough of the proper liquids. A least a

> gallon of day should be consumed. My rule is/was if hungry - drink. That

> usually takes care of many problems (like lightheadedness).

>

> The second thing is that most people are not prepared mentally for what

> they might run into during a fast. Generally speaking you may experience

> symptoms of sickness that you have had before. What do I mean? Well if

> you had problems with your skin in the past, you may have problems in

> that area while fasting. Perhaps you had a thyroid problem or something

> of that nature. You may even feel weak at times. What your body does,

> particularly if you treated that problem with drugs or synthetic

> supplements, is retrace, cleanse and eventually heal that very area.

> There is even a rather predictable sequence to this process. So while it

> might look like you are sick again, it is actually the process your body

> uses to get well. *These things usually pass fairly quickly.* It is

> called Hering's law of cure. This same phenomenon happens on a much

> slower basis when people begin to upgrade their diet.

The first time I did a one week water fast I felt great through the entire

fast. Second time with veggie juices I felt so awful I quit after 4 days.

From then on it varied, sometimes good sometimes bad. I've never had any

major health problems, taken any large quantities of drugs, etc. Wonder why

this would happen. I did a 3 week fast once and wouldn't have stopped but for

my friends telling me I was looking rather weak. I wouldn't fast now as I

don't believe it is a good thing to do to yourself.

>

> BTW, understanding this detox process is the number one determiner of

> whether a person will stick with a mostly raw foods diet. That is beside

> the point for this list but I thought I would throw that in :-)

I've been wondering why a raw foods diet is recommended by folks here.

>

> No I can't give you scientific references. This is just what I and many

> others have observed. Take it for whatever its worth.

>

> Bianca

>

Personally, I'd rather hear about experiences real people have had.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

At 04:34 PM 5/8/02 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 5/8/2002 3:06:32 PM Central Daylight Time,

>wanitawa@... writes:

>

>

>> >Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your

>> fat,

>> >not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You

>> fast,

>> >the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

>> >chance to form a cancer?

>>

>> IMHO, Belinda I don't think you need to worry about toxins much. You're a

>> farmer and you sweat much more often than most people. That alone keeps a

>> buildup from getting out of hand health wise. You're not exposing yourself

>> either to pesticide and herbicide use like conventional farmers. Eating

>> locally

>> grown food has its immunities too.

>> Wanita

>>

>>

>

>Wanita,

>

>I'm not worried at all. I don't feel the need to battle or clean anything

but

>thanks for the reassurance.

>

>Belinda

>

Noticed you mentioned that you're eating bitters plants like dandelion. Been

doing the usual first spring greens foraging myself. Dandelion, mint and

violets so far outside. In the greenhouse lamb's quarters and sheep sorrel.

Just like the critters do.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

Oops...I accidently sent this message before I finished it..here is the

completed message:

But, toxins are not just stored in your fat...they can also be elsewhere in

your body causing slow damage and problems. If one were to fast or use other

measures to detoxify, you would need to make sure you were taking measures to

eliminate what is being released from the cells (ie. make sure the liver,

kidneys, intestines, etc are eliminating well and that you have lots of good fat

to bind with the toxins and replace the bad fat).

Barb

Try this way of thinking about it. The " toxins " are stored away in your fat,

not moving, not doing anything, not able to get into any trouble. You fast,

the " toxins " are released. Where do they go? Are you giving them another

chance to form a cancer?

If you were going to be eaten then by all means fast to get the meanies out

of your fat as somebody is going to be eating that bad fat. In all

likelihood

you will not be consumed as supper so how does it hurt you to have this

stored in your fat where it is not doing you (or anybody else) any damage?

In addition, fasting. to me, seems much like eating things that don't taste

good, a punishment. You've been bad, you have to eat this bad tasting stuff

or you have to go without eating. I don't want to punish myself, I happen to

like myself.

Just my very unscientific thoughts.

Belinda

> I'm not quite sure I understand. You don't want to use up your fat

> and thereby get rid of the stored toxins? You want those stored

> toxins to just stay there and accumulate rather than be eliminated

> once and for all? I don't understand. Please elaborate (and I mean

> that in the most respectful way possible).

>

> > I've read about " toxins " be stored in fat as well. This is why I do

> not fast

> > and why I'm more concerned about my meat being organic than my

> veggies (tho

> > we grow most all our food ourselves).

>

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 00:26:06 -0000 " dkemnitz2000 "

<dkemnitz2000@...> writes:

Bianca how does one get past the lightheadedness/weakness during the

fast? Does fasting not cause those symptoms? Dennis

********Hi Dennis,

I have found that the main problem with most folks when they attempt to

fast is that they don't drink enough of the proper liquids. A least a

gallon of day should be consumed. My rule is/was if hungry - drink. That

usually takes care of many problems (like lightheadedness).

The second thing is that most people are not prepared mentally for what

they might run into during a fast. Generally speaking you may experience

symptoms of sickness that you have had before. What do I mean? Well if

you had problems with your skin in the past, you may have problems in

that area while fasting. Perhaps you had a thyroid problem or something

of that nature. You may even feel weak at times. What your body does,

particularly if you treated that problem with drugs or synthetic

supplements, is retrace, cleanse and eventually heal that very area.

There is even a rather predictable sequence to this process. So while it

might look like you are sick again, it is actually the process your body

uses to get well. *These things usually pass fairly quickly.* It is

called Hering's law of cure. This same phenomenon happens on a much

slower basis when people begin to upgrade their diet.

BTW, understanding this detox process is the number one determiner of

whether a person will stick with a mostly raw foods diet. That is beside

the point for this list but I thought I would throw that in :-)

No I can't give you scientific references. This is just what I and many

others have observed. Take it for whatever its worth.

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 8 May 2002 21:05:04 EDT bilherbs@... writes:

The first time I did a one week water fast I felt great through the

entire

fast. Second time with veggie juices I felt so awful I quit after 4 days.

From then on it varied, sometimes good sometimes bad. I've never had any

major health problems, taken any large quantities of drugs, etc. Wonder

why

this would happen.

******dunno. But cleansing goes in stages. It is not a straight line kind

of thing.

I did a 3 week fast once and wouldn't have stopped but for

my friends telling me I was looking rather weak. I wouldn't fast now as I

don't believe it is a good thing to do to yourself.

******When I was nearing the end of my 42 day fast, I went to visit some

friends. They were commenting on how healthy I looked. Later, after they

found out I was on this long fast, they suddenly became extremely

worried, even said I looked like I was wasting away. When I reminded them

of what they said earlier they were simply speechless.

>

> BTW, understanding this detox process is the number one determiner of

> whether a person will stick with a mostly raw foods diet. That is

beside

> the point for this list but I thought I would throw that in :-)

I've been wondering why a raw foods diet is recommended by folks here.

*****Besides the fact the Weston Price observed that all the healthy

groups ate some form of raw animal protein each day, and that Sally and

mention it prominently in NT, there were even some groups in which

raw animal protein was the dominant portion of their diet.

Having said that, I don't think anyone on this list is recommending a raw

foods diet, perhaps the addition of more raw animal foods to the diet,

but not a raw foods diet as the standard bearer for WAP or NT.

>

> No I can't give you scientific references. This is just what I and many

> others have observed. Take it for whatever its worth.

>

> Bianca

>

Personally, I'd rather hear about experiences real people have had.

Belinda

*****Careful now, you might rile some sleeping dogs :-))

Bianca