I need your help + Are there BPs in here?

[Guest guest]

Girlscout, statistically, a person raised by BP parents has a much greater

chance of having BPD. The more BPs a person has in their childhood the greater

the chances are the the person will have BPD or some other major mental illness.

Reason being that BPD is both genetically and environmentally transmitted within

in families.

Therefore, a list created specifically for KOs is likely to have a high ratio of

BPs that are also non-BPs. Randi Kreger talks about this in both of her books.

This is also stated in many other books, including the infamous " Understanding

the Borderline Mother. "

Also, statistically, most BPs don't know or are not able to acknowledge that

they have BPD, either because they are higher functioning or have been dealt

with harshly when they tried to tell people about their problem (forcing them

deeper into denial). Therefore, I think there is likely a lot of people on this

list that have BPD and either are afraid to share about it or don't know that

they have it.

I no longer qualify for the diagnosis of BPD, but I did 4 years ago. However, I

don't think it should matter, I think people with BPD should be welcome on this

list, even if they have not done therapy. I think it is understandable to have

BPD if one is a KO.

Is there anyone else that feels comfortable sharing about their diagnosis of BPD

here on this list? I think it should be ok to share about this part of

ourselves, if it exists. I don't know the exact percentage, but the chances of

BPD are high on this list.

Your second concern was that I used the term " granddaughter card. " I don't mean

to upset people, but I seem to do this every once in a while. I am sorry; I was

in a very defensive state of mind when I was writing about this fight with my

dad. I was also hurt by my dads refusal to acknowledge that I was being abused

by his hired help. I was triggered and when I get triggered I think in terms of

power and control. That is just the way I have been taught to deal with things.

When my dad plays the " you're out of here " card, I have to inventory my cards.

It is like a card game for me; cards were being played. I knew that my dad

would not kick me out, because of his granddaughter. I called this the

" granddaughter " card. I knew it was more powerful than the " you're out of here "

card. However, I won the hand without mentioning my daughter in any way. I am

not sure if you understand this. I did not say, " you wouldn't ever kick your

granddaughter out. " I simple knew that he wouldn't and he knew it to. I called

his bluff by intentionally escalating the conflict to it's conclusion.

I am interested to know if there is anyone else that thinks in this way

(power/control/cards). Is it so abnormal? I will admit that it sounds

methodical, but I have seen other settings where this is common

(business/politics/administration). I also would like to hear more for the

group about you concerns about how I handled this situation. What exactly did I

do wrong? Please be as specific as you can. Is it the way I think that is

offensive or did I do something wrong in my transaction with my dad. Also, how

would you handle it differently?

I thank you in advance for your help.

>

> To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

[Guest guest]

You think " people with BPD should be welcome on this list " . I'm sorry, I

strongly disagree with that to the very core of my being. This is not like other

lists where a non has a girlfriend who as BPD and can just leave. There is no

societal stigma over that. But I have very few people with whom I can discuss

the fact that I have basically divorced my mother. No one else but a KO

understands this because everyone else says " but it's your MOTHER " . I suffered a

lot of abuse, complex ptsd, a lost childhood, and a lot of stuff, and this WAS

the only place where I felt comfortable sharing some of the worst things that

happened to me in my life.

I am do not feel free to share these things now because I honestly do not trust

someone who says that they have BPD. And this is not the place to force me to do

so. My feelings are valid, and I won't have anyone tell me that I have to accept

someone that I am uncomfortable doing.

Here is an analogy: we don't allow registered pedophiles to live near schools,

do we? And we especially don't allow pedophiles to live next door to the school

of the victim they abused.

Having BPDs on this list is like allowing people like my abuser to be in the

same room as me. I am not cool with it, and if it continues, I am leaving. One

thing I have learned is that if a safe environment becomes unsafe, then I can't

be there. This environment, to me, has become unsafe, so I will be exiting

unless this changes.

> >

> > To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> > makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with you alfdancer, and I suggest that either pdff and/or Randi consider

the idea of creating a new support Group for the adult children of bpd parents

who also have bpd themselves.

I think that the bpd parent + bpd offspring relationship dynamic deserves a

unique support Group of its own.

This Group as it is structured now is one of very, very few support Groups I

have found on the Internet where the non-pd adult children of abusive,

personality-disordered parents can feel safe to openly discuss our deep pain and

fear, share that we have repressed anger and undeserved shame and misplaced

guilt over the damage we sustained at the hands of our bpd parents, and what a

profound betrayal of trust that was on our parents' part. It is part of the

healing process, and (if I understand what I've read correctly) its called

" abreaction. " By writing about and sharing the abuse that we endured, sometimes

sharing it repeatedly, we can uproot our repressed emotions and trauma/damage,

and by re-experiencing it, begin to heal from it.

The entire structure and purpose of this support Group would cease to function

if the non-pd members have to " walk on eggshells " here to spare the feelings of

those with bpd or who " used to " have bpd.

In my opinion.

-Annie

> > >

> > > To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> > > makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I strongly agree with both of you. If it comes to light that there are bpds on

the list, I won't be posting here anymore. For one thing, we come here for

support and advice, and for a KO to get support or advice from a bpd is like a

rape victim getting counseling from her rapist, or an abused child taking advice

on healing from a pedophile.

It would become a very unsafe place to be, and as Annie says, if I have to walk

on eggshells, why bother.

Em

> I agree with you alfdancer, and I suggest that either pdff and/or Randi

consider the idea of creating a new support Group for the adult children of bpd

parents who also have bpd themselves.

>

> I think that the bpd parent + bpd offspring relationship dynamic deserves a

unique support Group of its own.

>

> This Group as it is structured now is one of very, very few support Groups I

have found on the Internet where the non-pd adult children of abusive,

personality-disordered parents can feel safe to openly discuss our deep pain and

fear, share that we have repressed anger and undeserved shame and misplaced

guilt over the damage we sustained at the hands of our bpd parents, and what a

profound betrayal of trust that was on our parents' part. It is part of the

healing process, and (if I understand what I've read correctly) its called

" abreaction. " By writing about and sharing the abuse that we endured, sometimes

sharing it repeatedly, we can uproot our repressed emotions and trauma/damage,

and by re-experiencing it, begin to heal from it.

>

> The entire structure and purpose of this support Group would cease to function

if the non-pd members have to " walk on eggshells " here to spare the feelings of

those with bpd or who " used to " have bpd.

>

> In my opinion.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Dancer, Annie & Em, all 3 of you hit the nail directly on the head. I also

had thought of it being akin to a pedophile going on to council children who

were sexually abused. Not cool at all.

Annie, I also agree that no one should have to walk on eggshells here and

that perhaps a list for KOs who have struggled with BPD would be more

appropriate, so there was a separate place and nons would not have to feel

unsafe here.

PDFF - I'm not disagreeing that children of PD'ed parents have a higher

chance of being PD themselves, however, not all of us are. Some of us

escape it. For those that do not, well yes, you obviously need support too,

however I hope you can at the very least try to understand why so many folks

here are feeling like their safe haven is threatened.

Mia

[Guest guest]

I do not feel comfortable sharing with a BPD on the group. So long as this

stands, I will not be posting.

I will be happy to host a " by invite only " google group for those of us who

feel this way. If you prefer a closed group, just let me know. I'll send

invites to those who have already posted.

> **

>

>

> Dancer, Annie & Em, all 3 of you hit the nail directly on the head. I also

> had thought of it being akin to a pedophile going on to council children

> who

> were sexually abused. Not cool at all.

>

> Annie, I also agree that no one should have to walk on eggshells here and

> that perhaps a list for KOs who have struggled with BPD would be more

> appropriate, so there was a separate place and nons would not have to feel

> unsafe here.

>

> PDFF - I'm not disagreeing that children of PD'ed parents have a higher

> chance of being PD themselves, however, not all of us are. Some of us

> escape it. For those that do not, well yes, you obviously need support too,

> however I hope you can at the very least try to understand why so many

> folks

> here are feeling like their safe haven is threatened.

>

> Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I strongly agree. I will not be posting further until this issue has

been resolved. This does not feel safe to me.

I, too believe that BPD KOs BPD families have very specific needs and

issues which I am not prepared or willing to address, and thus should indeed

have their own site for growth and support.

Likewise, I feel that as a Non-BPD Ko, I have specific issues, that I am,

unwilling to share with BPDs.

While many of our issues may overlap, our internal coping mechanisms do

not intersect well. We may dance well to our own rhythm, but we tend to

dance on each others feet.

I promise I will not attempt to breach the sanctity or privacy of any BPD

KO BPD site, and I hope the privacy and sanctity if this site may be

restored, in such a way that leaves NON KOs feeling safe from lurking,

retaliation, and spitefulness, such as we have experienced in the past BPD /

NON BPD relationships, and that any BPD KOs BPD who may not be feeling well

served or supported here, may find themselves empowered and encouraged to

create their own best sister site.

While no malicious intent may *be* intended, the continued breaching of

this site, as well as the clearly defined discomfort registered by the NON

BPD members, is likely to be perceived by NONs as blatant disrespect of and

disregard for a clearly stated boundary, " * for NON BPD children of BPD

parents*..., " boundary issues being an ongoing theme of contention between

BPDs and NON BPDs

The fact that these boundaries appear to be held in contempt and abandon

is at best a serious miscalculation of the perceptions of the group, and at

worst, raises enough red flags to indicates to many of us that the concept

of BPD " recovery " may not be viable.

Or, on the other hand, it may be that such insensitivity is merely BPD

recovery " lag, " and once clearly recognized and understood, will allow a

graceful exit, and focus on helping Ms. Kreger create a new, well deserved

and deeply needed Recovered BPD KO BPD Group.

I cannot even begin to imagine the kind of internal strength it would take

to face such a task.

Best of Luck, to any and to all who choose to attempt such a deeply

challenging and important undertaking. It is, once again, not for the faint

of heart, or the weak in spirit, but would truly be The Heros Journey.

Sunspot

> **

>

>

> Dancer, Annie & Em, all 3 of you hit the nail directly on the head. I also

> had thought of it being akin to a pedophile going on to council children

> who

> were sexually abused. Not cool at all.

>

> Annie, I also agree that no one should have to walk on eggshells here and

> that perhaps a list for KOs who have struggled with BPD would be more

> appropriate, so there was a separate place and nons would not have to feel

> unsafe here.

>

> PDFF - I'm not disagreeing that children of PD'ed parents have a higher

> chance of being PD themselves, however, not all of us are. Some of us

> escape it. For those that do not, well yes, you obviously need support too,

> however I hope you can at the very least try to understand why so many

> folks

> here are feeling like their safe haven is threatened.

>

> Mia

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree with everyone else who has posted an opinion on this subject. I do not

feel safe sharing as long as I know there is a BPD in the group. Furthermore, I

feel it is a serious boundary violation if said BPD remains in the group,

especially after so many group members have voiced their concerns.

>

> > **

> >

> >

> > Dancer, Annie & Em, all 3 of you hit the nail directly on the head. I also

> > had thought of it being akin to a pedophile going on to council children

> > who

> > were sexually abused. Not cool at all.

> >

> > Annie, I also agree that no one should have to walk on eggshells here and

> > that perhaps a list for KOs who have struggled with BPD would be more

> > appropriate, so there was a separate place and nons would not have to feel

> > unsafe here.

> >

> > PDFF - I'm not disagreeing that children of PD'ed parents have a higher

> > chance of being PD themselves, however, not all of us are. Some of us

> > escape it. For those that do not, well yes, you obviously need support too,

> > however I hope you can at the very least try to understand why so many

> > folks

> > here are feeling like their safe haven is threatened.

> >

> > Mia

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

My thoughts in no particular order...

I feel similarly that there are certain things I wouldn't feel comfortable

sharing. Sometimes we need to say really harsh things just to get them out that

could be really hurtful for a BPD or former BPD member to hear. Likewise even a

hint of that member acting like a BPD parent could be incredibly upsetting. I

also think Pdfff should look for help in places where his history won't be

triggering for the group as a whole and perhaps is more shared. I bet there are

" in recovery " groups for people with BPD and odds are a good number of them have

BPD parents.

To Pdfff, one thing that stood out to me in your reply once it became clear that

people here felt upset about your history is that you didn't seem to feel

bothered at all or feel any regret. If I had a history of BPD, that would be

the very first thing I shared on the group to make sure I'd still be welcome.

The question about people thinking of interactions in terms of

power/cards/control. In business that is pretty common, but in relationships,

especially close ones, it shows lack of empathy. I'm not sure if empathy can

be developed, but it might be a good therapeutic direction. Like when someone

wants you out of their house they might not be " playing a card " but actually

really want you out. If you respond from a card pov rather than addressing

their real feelings and whether there's a real problem, much can remain

unresolved or worsen.

Eliza

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > > Dancer, Annie & Em, all 3 of you hit the nail directly on the head. I also

> > > had thought of it being akin to a pedophile going on to council children

> > > who

> > > were sexually abused. Not cool at all.

> > >

> > > Annie, I also agree that no one should have to walk on eggshells here and

> > > that perhaps a list for KOs who have struggled with BPD would be more

> > > appropriate, so there was a separate place and nons would not have to feel

> > > unsafe here.

> > >

> > > PDFF - I'm not disagreeing that children of PD'ed parents have a higher

> > > chance of being PD themselves, however, not all of us are. Some of us

> > > escape it. For those that do not, well yes, you obviously need support

too,

> > > however I hope you can at the very least try to understand why so many

> > > folks

> > > here are feeling like their safe haven is threatened.

> > >

> > > Mia

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

To my mind, I think this is just a real 'male' way of thinking about things.

Since most of the respondents on here are female, they might not generally see

the world from this angle.

Is Doug about? He should throw his hat in the ring. Or maybe another male can

chime in.

>

I am interested to know if there is anyone else that thinks in this way

(power/control/cards). Is it so abnormal?

[Guest guest]

With all due respect and sympathy I also agree with last poster that people with

BPD should not be welcome here. For me anyway there is not many places for

people that were raised by nada's etc that have a free place to have support

without having to mucker through other BPD problems. I came here because I could

not find a place for Non BPD people in BPD relationship on the help forum. They

had plenty for people that had BPD, and there was no way you could discuss your

problems about people with BPD. They try to start up Non BPD support groups

without much success. Due to how complicated this painful relationship is, and

how many others do not understand, especially other family members, or even

people that want to, but just can't, I need a place like this. As I said I feel

very much alone, and have a hard time with it. i think if you want to start up a

group for people that want to choose having both BPD people and non BPD people,

to help with healing maybe, but for me anyway, it can be to painful if I see

those same traits in a forum, when I have enough crap dealing with my Nada in my

RL. As I said no disrespect, and I am very glad you were able to defeat such a

hard personality disorder. I think that is great, for I was told personality

disorders are hard to get rid of.

> > >

> > > To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> > > makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I only have 2 questions (and I admit I haven't read all the posts yet related to

this):

1. Why would a BPD person want to hang out on a forum for those who have

suffered or are still suffering from the treatment they received from a BPD

person in their life?

2. Is there a moderator that can deal with this uncomfortable situation?

As for me, I don't know you so I still feel free to share how I feel about my

nada and the crap she pulls on me. And I don't agree that many people raised by

BPD parents end up as BPD themselves. It's something we watch for constantly and

fear; we question our every comment and attitude hoping we don't become like our

nada's and fada's. In that respect I think we have a head start on healing.

> >

> > To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> > makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

>

[Guest guest]

Personally, I think it's misleading that they would call this a group for

non-BPDs and then put in the fine print that they are allowed under special

circumstances.

> > > >

> > > > To be honest, PDFF, the kid as a card thing, plus you coming out as BPD

> > > > makes me very uncomfortable. I'm not even remotely cool with it.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, that is rather unclear; and when I checked again through the available

list of WTO support groups to join at the WTO home site/website page, there

isn't a separate WTO Group that is called " nons only " , which is why I thought

*this* group was the one she was referring to since it says " non-bpd children "

in the description.

-Annie

>

>

> Personally, I think it's misleading that they would call this a group for

non-BPDs and then put in the fine print that they are allowed under special

circumstances.

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, I think someone suffering with BPD, or even someone who has previously

been diagnosed, would get more support from another group dedicated to fellow

sufferers.

Randi, could you offer some guidance in this situation?

Thank you!

Fiona

>

> I only have 2 questions (and I admit I haven't read all the posts yet related

to this):

>

> 1. Why would a BPD person want to hang out on a forum for those who have

suffered or are still suffering from the treatment they received from a BPD

person in their life?

>

> 2. Is there a moderator that can deal with this uncomfortable situation?

>

> As for me, I don't know you so I still feel free to share how I feel about my

nada and the crap she pulls on me. And I don't agree that many people raised by

BPD parents end up as BPD themselves. It's something we watch for constantly and

fear; we question our every comment and attitude hoping we don't become like our

nada's and fada's. In that respect I think we have a head start on healing.

> >

>